We Should Be Called Classenal
Apr 14th, 2011 by 'holic
The Arsenal have a way of doing things. They are thoughtful and appreciative. There is a touch of class about the memorials that have accrued around the club down the years. The most obvious example is the bust of Herbert Chapman that most famously still adorns the entrance hall in Highbury’s East Stand. More recently George Armstrong is permanently remembered at Shenley, and rightly so. The museum exhibits wonderful mementos of some of the great names of the past.
It was no surprise, therefore, to read today that the club is renaming two bridges at the Grove in honour of two long-serving directors who delivered the project to move us to our new home – Ken Friar and Danny Fiszman. The bridges, which before today were known as the ‘North Bridge’ and ‘South Bridge’, have been renamed to mark the two men’s huge contribution to the Arsenal.
Image courtesy of Arsenal Football Club
Peter Hill-Wood today unveiled commemorative plaques on the two bridges during a ceremony at the stadium, which was attended by the Arsenal board of directors, Arsène Wenger and many Club employees. The timing of the event gained added meaning with the news yesterday of the passing of Danny Fiszman, and it was with his blessing that the ceremony continued. A director for nineteen years, Danny earned respect from all as a supporter, as well as being the driving force behind the club in recent years.
We will miss him, and hope that his heir apparent, Stan Kroenke, will have picked up on the special atmosphere that must have been prevalent today. Stan, you have bought yourself a quite remarkable and unique institution, as I am sure you are aware.
If Mr Kroenke is the new man at the Arsenal, then at the other end of the scale there was also recognition today for a man who has virtually dedicated his life to the service of North London’s finest. Ken Friar OBE has worked for Arsenal since 1950. Starting in the matchday ticket office, ‘Mr Friar’ as he is affectionately known by all employees, became club secretary in 1973. Ten years later, he was promoted to Managing Director, a position he held until 2000, when he took on the role as co-ordinator of the stadium move.
Peter Hill-Wood said: “These two men have had a huge impact on Arsenal Football Club. This is a small way of recognising their efforts and ensuring their passion and commitment to this great football club will be remembered through time.”
The North Bridge, which joins Emirates Stadium to Drayton Park, close to Arsenal tube station, has been renamed ‘The Ken Friar Bridge’, and the South Bridge, which contains the iconic giant ‘ARSENAL’ letters at one end, has been renamed ‘The Danny Fiszman Bridge’. It is fitting that the two huge structures that were pivotal to ensuring the smooth flow of supporters to and from the new stadium should now bear the names of the men who delivered the whole project, on-time and on-budget.
An old friend returns
As the North London derby is less than a week away, and a celebration of a distant achievement by our friends and neighbours is barely a fortnight away, I am delighted with the return of the Spurs clock, inspired by the original which was a much loved part of now extinct Up The Arse for so long, and has been lovingly recreated by Arthur the Gooner, a talented ‘holic.
Thank you Arthur.
74 Responses to “We Should Be Called Classenal”
I’ll have a single malt in honour and appreciation of two Arsenal legends.
Funny you should say that, Blogs. I just happen to have here…
Thank you again, maestro.
well done with the clock, ‘holic and arthur. i’ll be able to be home in time to raise a different glass to those upcoming 50 years.
and again, not just a glass but a whole damn case to mr. friar and the late mr. fiszman. here’s to all that you’ve given, and in hopes it’s been returned…
Mr Ken Friar, A rare breed indeed if there’s anyone more fitting of such an accolade in football I’ll be surprised- they don’t come more Arsenal than Kenneth !!!!
The fella he succeeded, Chippy, one Bob Wall, was the original Mr Arsenal.
I’ll do a piece on him one day. He and Ken were cut from the same cloth, and David Miles may be the last in that particular line.
Countdown to 50 years of ineptitude clock returns to Goonerholic home page. Now THAT’S class!
Sorry pressed send before finishing what is it with the current David Dein love in, Yes we were succesfull when him and his ego were in power and may have won a pot or two more but the love in mystifies me – People have short memories as this was the man behind the bond scheme that alienated a generation – He then went on to want us to rellocate to fucking wembley of all places or failing that Kings Cross after that went pete tong he went behind a so called friends back and tried to shaft him-
When that failed he sold up and made a fucking mint of the back of the club- Thats not even mentioning ticketing scandals or the Henry affair the mans got more faces than Guess who – Hes good to have around in some aspects but I wish people would stop pining for his return he’s not the messiah just a very naughty boy 🙂 Sorry couldn’t resist lol, Theres far more deserving of praise at the club.
Oh for the record that dosent include Edelman class A C&&t 😉
How quickly some forget, Chippy, that Danny is reported to have escorted Dein off the premises after his deception was unearthed.
Please do Holic, Im sorry to say I know hardly a jot of said Sir and it will be an informative read and anyone “Cut from the same cloth” as Mr Friars good by me !!
The reason for the lack of atmosphere at the emerites as the bond scheme tore apart the soul of the club. People make false inferances. Dein at the club= success as that coincided with him being there. It is bollocks. It was the fact we had great players and that the money behind clubs changed after.
Dein is an orange version of fat Arry. The type of man who would sell the gold from your teeth while your still alive.
A wheeler dealer chancer with no long termism. In fact I have never seen him and Arry together. A cunt!
Nice one ‘Holic.
And the clock is back – yay!
Good good good. Some realistic posts about David Dein. Talk about looking back in rose tinted glasses, (or £350 Porsche sunglasses, and I am ashamed to say a friend of mine has a pair). We could be playing at a shit stadium called Wembley, with a shit pitch and a shit transport infrastructure, and paying fuck knows how much rent. As usual, Mr Holic’s blog is the voice of reason. Not saying he was the Beast personified, neither did he have 666 tattooed on his forehead, but, where would we realistically be if we had no stadium?
Well done Arsenal ladies beating Chelsea in their first professional game, attendance around 2,500. I do hope the ladies league takes off.
I am so pleased the Spurs clock is revitalised, but I am concerned that the new battery wont last for another 50 years.
As for ownership, I am still in panic mode. I am quite prepared to accept the recommendations of any class 2 drugs from fellow posters. 🙂
The subject of class reminds me of a song…
“Chelsea, wherever you may be,
You haven’t got any history,
You might buy trophies but YOU CAN’T BUY CLASS,
Your left back takes it up the arse”
And may the Spurs clock stay that way…
Evening Holic
I am certain that Stan will uphold the TRADITIONS AND GOOD GOVERNANCE of Arsenal Football Club.
After all,he has had Danny in his ear ever since Stan came on board,educating him about all things Arse,how much a part of the Fabric of Football life in the Community and the Country, the Club has been since it’s inception in 1886.
Once Danny perceived that Stan was indeed the Man,he knew the Club would be in safe hands.
Selling him his shares was the final acknowledgement,and i am sure he passed away content that all was well down Arsenal Way.
cheers
Clive
Fred – You may be onto something 😉
Oh and if he does return have no fear it would be for his own ends above all else- He may love the club but he loves David Dein more.
I just saw, we are nearing 40,000 drinks! I thought, what a load of bollocks, no-one could possibly consume 40,000 drinks.
Then I started a calculation, number of years I’ve been drinking, multiplied by 52 for each week, multiplied by 7 for each day, and, well, ulp, I fucking hate mathematics.
Well spotted, Stone. Just checked the archive, and the first dozen posts in September 2006 yielded nine drinks, apparently. I think some may have been lost in the moves since then, but still.
What a difference four and a half years makes.
Very humbling…
Interesting thoughts on Dein. I’ve had the same suspicion, not that he was a crook, but that he’s suddenly being exalted unrealistically as the saviour.
Truth is, Dein was around when teams came to play football against the Arsenal, with high defensive lines. Our famed strike pair of Henry and Dein would have had much of the same frustrations we experience today.
one of our new indoor training sites was named after Rocastle too I think
Mr Holic,
No no no no, not humbling, not at all. Just an acknowledgement of your professionalism and literary skills.
Respect.
Indeed CHEZZ, and quite rightly.
Class.
Glad you didnt let us down Holic. I was a little disappionted that Mr. Fiszman’s passing away was largely forgotten in gooner blogosphere except by Arseblogger and ACLF and few others.
I’m personally very sad to hear news about Danny Fiszman. A true gooner, who worked so hard to bring us to where we are today.
Danny Fiszman’s tireless work should not be forgotten.
Respect.
Holic, is there anyway I can share the Sp*r timetracker on facebook? Think you just got to add some facebook script to enable that.
Would be great if you could do so! 🙂
I’ll drink to Fizman.
Its easy to forget in these times the importance of good financial management of football. He made a great contribution to making us the most debt free profitable club in the country whilst providing a world class stadium.
I am frustrated by the long period without a trophy but people like Danny Fizman develop our club the correct way which will bring us success soon and well into the future.
When Paul Merson was just turned 16, I saw him play, briefly, on TV in the Evening Standard London 5-a-sides.
Blimey, I thought, that lad is class.
As we all know, Merse had his problems during his Arsenal career, but some while after he hung up his boots, I caught a documentary which included him revisiting Highbury and recalling his early days at the club.
He said he was struck, on his first day on the Highbury pitch, by just how perfect everything in the stadium looked.
As he looked around, he said, he noticed how up in the stands every single seat was perfectly positioned; there wasn’t one seat even a fraction out of place.
It was typical, he said, of how Arsenal always did everything “just right”.
Judging by events at the stadium today, nothing has changed.
A classy tribute, indeed ‘Holic, to a classy man.
This blog ain’t too shabby either sir, thanks to your constant efforts. Looking forward to the Bob Wall piece.
If I wasn’t so drunk already I’d join in another round.
As it is I just say: ‘thank you ‘holic ‘ and raise a glass ;oh here it is, space for another one then) to both Ken (may you live long) and Danny (rest in peace). Drinks for all ‘holics around, quite naturally !
Mmmmm
Its easy to pass judgement on Dein when you write his biography out in plain words and draw linear conclusions. Its possible to do that with anyone.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t disagree with anything thats been said.
Question I have is this: Didn’t Wenger offer to resign on hearing of Dein’s sacking, and wasn’t it Dein who persuaded him otherwise? Are they not still very good friends? Do you think Wenger would have such close associations and respect for a man – who just chose to sell his shares and capitalise???
I think the Dein situation is far more complex than people give it credit. He’s responsible for bringing both Kronke and Usmanov to the club. I don’t think its a question of “choosing sides” – more one of a chap who tried playing politics (and fucked up) out of genuine care for the club.
He certainly wasn’t right in what he did. But I don’t think his intentions were necessarily wrong either. And if you doubt this, then ask yourself, why is Wenger still such close friends with him???
Evening Holics,
Barkeep a cup of Tenision tamer and some nachos please extra jalapenos. Well, this is the last of the “normal” nights as tommorow evening I begin my weekly decent into the funk of goonercentrism. All things becoming peripheral eclipsed by the overwhelming unknowning angst that has become this question marked season.
A win this weekend will be occaissioned with great joy, a draw with distain, and a loss with usher forth the flowing bowl until all that cannot be changed is for a time forgotten.
Well in the meantime,greentime. Hoping for the best, COYG!!!
Joe, I hear you, and thanks for sharing an alternative view of the man. It would be wrong not to accept the good that Dein did, but similarly I cannot blank out his final deeds.
Any man who deceives this football club deceives that which is dearest to my heart. There is no way back for the man who obtained the family silver in a shrewd fashion, and then hawked it around (and not just his own shares) like some corporate Del Boy.
Sorry, but I cannot see myself being swayed from that view.
Nice blog ‘holic. You painted quite a picture there about the whole tribute.
I don’t know when I will visit the Grove, but when I do I am sure I will absorb every bit of class which our disinguished club oozes.
It’s a dream of mine, which I hope will come true sooner rather than later.
Drinks to all the holics at the bar, please
“Classenal”
Has a nice ring to it 😀
Cap tilted your way again Sir!
My Dad knew David Dein as a wheeler dealer barrow boy on the market. As you go through life you will win some and loose some. Arsenal benefited from these attributes in his transfer dealings, as well as his schmoozing of the great and the good in football. Ultimantely though he lost when trying to manipulate the ownership of the club. It was just one step too fa,r it is not possible to work woth someone whose intentions you cannot trust, he had to go.
Joe @ 28
“….then ask yourself, why is Wenger still such close friends with him?”
2 possible answers –
1. We allow our friends much more scope to be an arsehole than we do people for whom we have just a passing acquaintance
or
2. Arsene’s judgement might be in question?
Either way, for most of us, DD has had his day.
Nice trbute and post again Holic!
Yay the clock is back 🙂
50 years of mediocrity…and still counting!
Zico,
I don’t doubt that he (Dein) has had his day at all in that what many people think. But I also think there’s alot in what PS7 has said. I think he really screwed up when he started meddling with the shareholding and in particular, the way in which he went about it. It was a step too far.
Holic,
I hear and respect that point of view too. The Arseblogger expresses similar sentiments about Dein. His manipulation and dealings were totally out of kilter with the ethics and ethos of what the club represents and he was rightfully admonished for it.
But my point is this: Dein’s overall view of what was needed at Arsenal was absolutely spot on. The club reached a point with Wengers success whereby in order to take the next step and become a truly global brand and one of the big players in world football – it needed addtional investment and expertise to build upon the expectations that Wenger created.
Dein wanted to make sure the funds were available to AW to retain the clubs competitiveness in the transfer market and as such favoured the wembley project. Of course the reverse has happened, funds were directed to the Emirates project and if we’re really honest with ourselves, the only reason we have remained competitive is down to the sheer brilliance of AW with little or no funds at his disposal for such a long time. Whats currently happening at the club with the global development of the Arsenal brand by Kronke, the employment of a legal/commercial CEO with global experience and separate marketing and commercial functions etc, is in many ways in sync with what Deins vision was. It was Dein who brought in Kronke and the fact remains that Kronke now is the clubs owner!
Ultimately, the question I would ask myself is this: Would the club be served better with having someone like Dein involved going forward?
I think it would – and I’d be inclined to extend a hand of forgiveness. But that’s just my tuppense worth.
Afternoon ‘Holic and Afternoon All ,
Well I’ve had better starts to a day . Mistaking the Deep Freeze Pain Relief Spray for my Morrissons own brand Body Active Deodourant , Ive been wandering around with an underarm version of Lockjaw , and a slightly uncomfortable feeling that colleagues are finding me a little whiffy .
Still , a quick trip to Boots and I’m fully expecting the ” Lynx Effect ” to kick in anytime soon , with lots of bikini-clad lovelies rushing from all corners of the globe to fall at my feet .
I have to say , with all false modesty put aside ,I’ve made a good start . The sandwich-shop girl smiled flirtatiously when I entered the shop , and her enquiry , ” what would you like in your sandwich , sir ? ” , was positively coquettish .
Anyway … , Joe @ 28 , a well reasoned argument sir , but i find myself coming down on the Holic side of the fence on this one . Yes Dein is a mover and groover , and yes he brought Arsene to the club , but his ego got the better of him , his proposed move to Wembley smacked of short-termism and would have gone some way to destroying the tradition , heritage , and most importantly the grass-root fan-base of our great club , and even more importantly the courting of Stan and then Usmanov behind the Board’s back , was an example of self-interest of the worst kind .
His continuing friendship with Arsene ? .. Arsene doesn’t strike me as the sort to turn his back on a friend with whom he has shared interests ( Arsenal and Charades ) . More pertinently , Arsene has never publicly endorsed Red and White Holdings , even when Dein was the proposed new Chairman .
Ken Friar – my late father had some dealings with him , when he ( my father ) was doing the accounts for David Court and Geordie Armstrong . He told me that he was the consumate gentleman who was as potty about the Arsenal as he was . The naming of the Bridge is a well- deserved tribute to an Arsenal man through and through .
Bob Wall’s ” Arsenal from the Heart ” still adorns my bookcase and i look forward to your piece ‘Holic .
Finally ‘Holic , may i add my congratulations to your latest milestone , and long may you continue . The return of the clock – fanf*ckintastic !
Have a good day Gooners .
LCG @29
you been nicking my mushrooms old son ?
Joe @36
Cant agree with you , but a very well reasoned argument nevertheless.
TaBS,
There is a certain aroma, a faint air of singed hair, about the drinks.
I had the ggod fortune to have a chat with David Court pre-match a couple of years back. Great company, pleased to chat over the old days. A true Arsenal man.
I have the Bob Wall book too. I did do a piece from it a while back.
http://goonerholic.com/2007/06/all-our-yesterdays/
There are many more gems in there to expand on. I must do it soon.
‘Holic , thank you , another great read , as ever .
With regard to David Court , the only anecdote that i can share is that I remember my father telling me that he took David on , on the squash court on a couple of occasions .
My father was , on his own admission , a ” good ” player . I was too young at the time to verify this bombastic claim .
My father told me that he stood on the ” T ” , had David running all over the shop , and won the game easily .
And yet , at the end of the game , David was as fresh as a daisy , and my father was dripping with sweat .
Oh to be as fit as a professional footballer !
TABS,
Quality stuff, thanks. The Barman certainly seems taken with your posts too and rightly so. Trust your sarnies were properly stuffed (phnaar) and it’s a bloody good job your anti-perspirant wasn’t the ‘ball-type’ (double phnaar).
Always good to see fellow ‘Holics argue a point with clarity and reason (*doffs cap to Joe*). It’s part of what makes this bar a really special corner of the internet.
I’m too much of a plastic to know much about Dein so can’t comment further or add value on that subject.
ATG,
Wherever you are, thanks for re-instating the clock with ‘Holic. VERY timely (sorry)…
‘Holic,
We truly are a classy club, perhaps beyond all others but how can anyone here disagree with that? Life would be even better if we were able to talk more about our classy results and consistently classy performances. It’s been a helluva season with the big prize still to play for. It sure would show a heap of class if we could bag The Championship.
Many interesting drinks as usual. I don’t know much about the details in regards to Dein going behind the back of the rest of the board, but I do know that being a tenant at Wembley would have put us in a far, far worse position than we are now. We’d have been paying rent through the nose, had far less income from selling beer and dodgy burgers and bascially been fucked. The Ashburton Grove project will be paid in full in not too long and then we will see the real effects of it.
Oh, and well done Arthur for bringing the clock back to life!
Pints all round for anyone still here, for my part I am off home in a while to rest my ringing ears for a bit. Been listening to the new Foo Fighters album (released last Friday) on repeat for the past two days with the volume cranked up to just above “way too loud”.
Aarghh!
It has been pointed out that somewhere along the line I have got the wrong date on the clock, and the big anniversary is THIS SUNDAY!
Arthur, king of code, I need you. You have mail 😉
Never mind Holic,
the rising might of Spuds will be along to win the league anytime now…..and your plight will be rendered redundant.
Meanwhile, in the real world, I assum everyone seen the abortion that is the proposed away strip next season? There is obviously a large gap in the market headed up “consumer research” if that is the best they can come up with.
If I was to wear it, I would be taken to the nearest paddock and chucked onto a horse 😉
TS @41
HA ha and thank you !
Lars@42
By coincidence I have been listening to ” One by One ” the last couple of days at the same volume level you selected . The Foo Fighters – what a band – but may have to join you in the mellow out section of the Bar .
Have a good one ‘Holics and a round of whatever you’re drinking , so that we may raise our glasses to an Arse victory on sunday .
‘holic at 43?
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I thought your were infallible.
Have a drink on me.
TaBS,
Your bout of “deodorant lockjaw” left me with a little lockjaw of my own given the giggle I got from it..! Any your tale of David Courts exploits on the squash court resonates too: My squash coach is 66 and an ex national champion. While my legs are a good deal younger, he can strike a ball with such precision, I have often wondered if it came equipped with Satellite Navigation..!
Anyways – its Liverpool on Sunday. And while I too hope King Kenny’s £50m “strikeforce” are as poor as BTM suggests, their work ethic since his arrival is a far more honest effort.
Holic, as ever, your forum is sanctuary of intelligence and common sense..!
And you are a welcome addition Joe. We need to be reminded of the alternative view now and again, and not be told we are all various body parts at the same time…
Ollie, I am decidedly fallible, although I believe the clock was originally coded to the end of the season, and strictly speaking they weren’t champions until it was all over 😉
I would like us to celebrate the anniversary of the mathematical certainty though. Anybody who was there that night may not last another two weeks…
Tabs @37, Good thing ‘Holic’s site has no virtual aroma or we might be getting a whiff of you and/or the sandwich shop girl as we digest our sandwiches. I’ll lift a glass of rioja to a classy set of results this week. Cheers!
Joe ,
Glad it gave you a giggle and Cheers .
34 minutes to the best Guinness of the week. I can hear it cooing to me already.
That will thin the blood for the artery-stiffening dinner from the chippie. I wish our local would learn the art of a light beer batter…
‘Holic – Guinness is a meal in itself.
Remember, solids are for softies 🙂
Nasri , indeed , tho chances are it would be the former rather than the latter ! Cheers
Got to have something zico, or the morning would bring a new oilstrike in the West Country, a proper gusher 🙁
Holdl your collective breaths! (Or don’t!) AW says Vermaelen is back in full training according to le site officiel.
Also, AW on Jens’ game at Blackpool: “I can just congratulate him on the game he played. He saved a very important ball at 3-1 and overall his decision making was perfect.”
If that is the case, might it not be the time for Le Boss to revise his policy on long-term contracts for post-30 and post-40 year olds?
Holic – you are one sensible gooner – it’ll never catch on though 😉
Nasri – I was going to mention it myself but I didn’t want to frustrate everyone even more. But I’m having one of my gut feelings again. Sometimes they’re right (GT pound) sometimes they’re wrong (Usmunov was going to sell up). But this time around I feel in my waters that we’ll at least see TV5 play again this season.
There’s is talk about him being on the bench come Sunday, although I feel that will be a bit optimistic seeing as AW says he is not yet match fit despite taking part in full training. There are also whispers that he’ll take part in a closed reserve game or two. Either way, it’s written in the stars that he shall pull back on the shirt again before the end of the season, subject to an AW announcement to the contrary!
Here’s to TV5 returning to full training again! Cheers have one on me! 😉
TABS, good to hear that there are others in here that appreciate the music of Dave Grohl!
goonertown: agree re: TV, unless he has been in full training for at least two weeks I don’t think he will be on the bench just yet. Though I would (barring any setbacks, of course) be surprised if he didn’t play at least a few minutes for the first team this season. There is, after all, more than a month to go until the last game.
A pint for anyone who wants to join me!
I’m here Lars! Cheers!
dinner from the chippie ??? I’ll buy the drinks but I’m buggered if I’m buying the dinner to 😉 Top blogging people 3-0 the Arse,
You lot are absolutely awesome. Thank you.
Let’s face it ‘holic in the U.S. there are only three occasions when it is socially acceptable to have a 7 a.m. pint:
1) Mardi Gras = only acceptable in New Orleans and surrounding area
2) St. Patrick’s Day = only acceptable in Irish Bars, and more generally in New York, Boston, Chicago and a few other big cities
3) While watching live European sporting events, i.e. the Arsenal games
No wonder early drinking on Saturday mornings is becoming so popular. I’ll join in that toast to TV5 and his early late (or would that be a late early) return to the team. C’mon Arsenal!
*glass raised*
Spot on ‘holic.
Classy club, classy blog and classy patrons. 98% of the drinks are so great and discussions or debates are so well presented it’s the most fitting place for long time fans and tuned in new ones that I know of.
Feel like someone outside the party regarding David Dein he was always in high regard back when I lived in London…but time marches on.
Just hoping that the class, history and convictions of this wonderful club are chaperoned well in years to come. An emotional week, still a lot to play for and a win for Danny at the weekend is just what’s required.
As Tim says above, this is the best place for young fans like me to learn about the history and traditions of our great club. Thanks to you ‘holic as the host and all the knowledgeable and passionate regulars here.
Cheers.
TABS @37 – nice stuff, very funny opening.
Back to Hertfordshire today, in time for the trip to the Grove tomorrow. Hopefully will be able to keep up with the drinks with slightly less time lag.
Have to say that the main posts and drinks have been great this week – have really enjoyed keeping in touch from my West Country isolation.
Seems almost strange to have a massive game just over 24 hours away.
After the takeover news at the beginning of the week, and the sad events of midweek particularly. the prospect of the team actually playing has almost slipped out of mind.
A passionate but respectful “Come on you REDS”.
Holic you have mail!
The clock has disappeared! Boo.
Clock fine here, zico.
Clock fine here too. Zico if it’s only you, could it be you have some Sp*ds saboteurs lurking in your midst?
Don’t think so 8 ball, I must be in the phantom zone – it doesn’t really matter, as even I can count to 50 in my head 🙂
‘holic, you won’t be pleased to hear that Emma Byrne has conceded a goal and the Arsenal Ladies will now struggle to make it to the CL final.
Drinks for anyone at the bar (it looks a bit empty)
2-0 bah. I hate Lyon, men and women’s team alike.