Hopefully The Nadir Is Reached
Dec 11th, 2012 by 'holic
We fought, but not as hard as a fourth division club. Well played Bradford City. You deserved it.
If you are here as I hit the publish button you have seen the match. This is no match report.
All that we have tonight are questions, best left unanswered until the cold light of day. The red mist judgement is invariably not the right one, but the questions supporters have deserve to be addressed after undoubtedly the lowest point of the Arsene Wenger era.
That was the best available team we could put out there tonight against a fourth division team. Regardless of how tired some may be of this question, is it right we have money sitting in the bank that could have been used to strengthen that squad in the summer?
Are we the best that we can be with the resources available to us? We are run now by businessmen, and that is how it should be. This is now a huge business. The core business is football. That is what we pay top prices to watch. We’ve bought the bonds. We’ve bought the stones. We’ve bought the bricks. We want our money to be invested in the team. We want to watch players with application and passion as well as technical ability. Are we getting that?
I honestly don’t know who is responsible anymore for the criminal underinvestment in this team. I think the constant speculation is the source of the divisions between people who have this club so deep in their heart it hurts.
Tonight quite frankly I don’t give a monkeys who is to blame. Tomorrow morning would the people running this club sit down and thoroughly review how it came to pass that the best team we could muster couldn’t beat a fourth division club.
STOP MAKING EXCUSES AND DO THE JOBS YOU ARE HANDSOMELY REWARDED FOR.
Arsenal, bloody Arsenal.
421 Responses to “Hopefully The Nadir Is Reached”
Usual rules on such an occasion people.
We don’t abuse Arsenal people here, just make our points respectfully.
Don’t quote post numbers. The hard of thinking who don’t grasp rule one will be deleted.
Let’s share each others misery with some grace.
Thanks.
Well said Holic.
Seconded ‘holic.
Couldn’t be bothered to run into the box for first.
Anyone else see anyone else with such a disappointing attitude like that tonight? π
4th????????????????????????????
If only….
Bugger.
Off the post…………
6th…we’ll finish higher
Great post by the way ‘holic, and yes we’re all hurting!
As i said, forget the under investment for a minute.
A good manager has to be a good motivator and get the best out of his team.
Is Arsene getting the best out of the players at his disposal?
It was a league 4 side ffs.
Two seasons ago we beat Barcelonaβ¦β¦..
It is very simple.
The football bit is badly broken.
Arsene Wenger is responsible for the football bit.
Once you acknowledge that, the solution is obvious.
That’s all I’m going to say, so don’t bother slagging me off or saying how boring it is to hear it, as you won’t get a reply.
Tim.
Thank you for your kind outburst and ridiculously offensive attempt at sarcasm.
For your information, my grandmother, who brought me up from 4 years old, died last week, 8 days short of her 100th birthday, and I wasn’t particularly in the mood for anything other than grieving.
Sorry if that wasn’t what you were hoping for and, having watched the WBA game yesterday, you wouldn’t have agreed with anything I would have said about it with the possible exception of “they at least showed some spirit.”
A lot more than can be said for tonight.
I am starting to get the feeling that ANY form of criticism towards the board and the manager are now going to be met with the kind of derisory and generally unfair “rebuttles” that you and others here seem to think are warranted when, in actual fact, we all just want the same thing…
A successful team again.
Steve T and Tim,
Sharing the same pair of ill fitting boots? π woodwork doesn’t count!
Well put, as ever.
It isn’t about who is to blame, it isn’t even about the past, except for using it in an assessment of what mistakes not to repeat.
It is about the fact that everyone involved in the club, from top to bottom, is invested in it, either financially or emotionally, or both, and it is in everyone’s interest to pull together and sort out whatever has gone wrong. And no-one can pretend that all is rosy in the garden.
I’ve seen a few occasions in business where a variety of people were locked in a room and told not to leave until they had a plan they all agreed on. Bang heads together, shout at each other, but come out with a plan, a unified plan.
Right now it feels like the club is a mass of tangled ropes, and everyone involved is pulling a different end, causing the massive ball of knottage in the middle to get more tightly and irretrievably locked.
But well done Bradford. We nearly stole a glorious night from them, but in the end the result that they deserved was achieved. Shouldn’t forget them while we look inwards.
Not really the posting type, nor a reactionary. I don’t want Arsene gone, I don’t want to give a toss about who the owner or CEO is, and I am right sick of hearing people slag off a kid who had his leg nearly amputated for the cause. I support Arsenal without question or hesitation and do not believe I am entitled anything from the club except what it provides and what I decide to take away from the transaction.
But I was forced to acknowledge something I’ve avoided as long as possible, as I watched this team strain to even the score against an inferior but plucky team, that the sands have shifted out from beneath a great man’s feet, and it may simply be that it’s too late for him to stage a renaissance. If he goes and someone else comes in and restores this club to glory then it will be welcomed but bittersweet.
I am sorry, terribly sorry, Arsene. You deserve so much better than what has happened, and what is yet to happen, and that is all.
A McCallan’s 30 for me, because fuck it, it’s worth the extra coin and I don’t feel like being parsimonious in times like these. And, no, I don’t see the irony in that.
Perhaps the Mayan calendar is accurate.
End of.
Criminal underinvestment means we fail to compete for the league and CL but it shouldn’t stop us beating a league 2 team?
It was an unfair contest tonight – apart from Coquelin (correct me if I am wrong) the Arsenal players were all Internationals but they couldn’t find the guile, concentration, determination or guts to up their game until they won.
That comes from them but you have to blame the manager. He can see them bottling it around the box, knocking it to someone else but doesn’t stop them
He can see them over hitting then under hitting crosses but he doesn’t calm them down
I thought Swansea was the bottom but it looks like we need a bigger shock to invoke change – was this it? Judging by his cliched interview I think he is completely in denial and that worries me.
This is a new low.
Hopefully this bit of humbling would bring desire, humility and determination — three words loved by the boss — back in the team and with games coming thick and fast over the holidays and in January can push us forward.
We are only 5 points off the 3rd Spot, with 22 games to go. We will not win CL — unless some major investment is made in January — but with a bit of application, tactical astuteness and yes some luck can go much forward. And then the FA cup, where that three combination may be good enough for a win.
What I would hope is though that certain experimentations are stopped for the sake of this team. Gervinho is not a center forward — he doesn’t have the natural confidence and clinical abilities of a finisher that was in Henry or RVP before they were playing in the central roles — and Ramsey is not a winger. If these experiments haven’t worked for half of a season we shouldn’t risk the next half for those to come to fruition.
One simple fact – When all are fit Gervinho is our #2 centre forward… How did that happen? Surely Walcott, or Podolski would fare better in that position. Or even Sczesczny??!
I’m afraid that this is not a red mist judgement … Wenger should step down now. It appears as if he has lost the dressing room and forgotton how to win trophies. The team tonight were more than good enough to go through. It is the manager who is at fault … playing Ramsey on the right with gervinho through the middle is just plain naieve. Ramsey on the right worked against man city earlier in the season but hasn’t since. Why does Wenger continue to line up in this way? I will be forever grateful to a man who has provided the greatest moments I have ever experienced as an arsenal fan but it’s time for him to go. We shouldn’t be scared of change. Perhaps Wenger’s greatest achievement has been getting arsenal to the stage now that when he leaves we will not have to scrape the barrel of the managerial pile for a successor.
‘holic
Our investment in the team has grown by just under 60% since 2008 (payroll) just to tread water. Where should it stop?
This is losing a League Cup match, nothing more when the sun comes up tomorrow. Twice in 16 years we’ve lost to lower league opposition. Not sure how that compares to others but I’d wager favourably.
Until something big changes in the transfer market/ability to match salaries we are destined to not finish higher than 3rd or 4th. Money has changed the game beyond belief. The question is would a different manager get more from this squad? I say he probably wouldn’t. Other will disagree. If Arsene walks out in May it will because he feels we didn’t reach realistic goals.
Yes I’m speculating…I realise that, but there is major underlying reason we’re not Chelsea, City, Tottenham or Liverpool. We don’t change managers on a constant basis, once we start how much patience will people show if it goes tits up?
Bradford (let’s not forget) played well and deserved the draw. Penalties…whatever.
“Are we the best that we can be with the resources available to us?”
Thank you. How long have I been asking the same question? A club has to evolve. Evolution not revolution. We are at this stage because the same question has not been answered positively for the last 5 years. We now find ourselves in a situation that we have only ourselves to blame for. Tonight was just another “one off performance” that highlights the issues. We have started the last 5 season short of where we should have been. So far we have managed to get away with it. The paper over the cracks gets thinner game by game. The strength in depth is not there. Tonight is a prime example. We start with Gervinho, a midfield player up front. Then bring on Chamakh in an attempt to win it????? And we wonder why it does not seem to work as often as it should.
It is not good enough. The squad is not good enough. The business model is failing the club in it’s current guise. The board need to get off their arses and smell the coffee before it is too late. Quite frankly, I for one am bored with the excuses.
Wenger has become a sad, sad parody of himself. He is tactically inept- the different between the side with Aaron Ramsey on the pitch and off was startling- and the players no longer play for him.
If he had any dignity he would go. He is at the root of the problem. His excuses for the performance during the post-match interview were utterly embarrassing.
Don’t be under any illusions that this Arsenal side plays good football. It is boring, sideways, unadventurous and risk averse shite. He has destroyed players like Arshavin by playing them out of position and he simply must go.
Agreed Holic. Grace and dignity at criminally low levels on this planet right now. Respect is a must.
Im not gonna knock all the optimists who say we’ll finish in the top four-good on ’em.
Cant see it myself,but love to be wrong.
Im usually wrong — my wife explained that to me years ago.
The question really is :Is fourth good enough?”
For WBA and thier ilk ,perhaps it is.
But we’re Arsenal.
In your preview Holic you said: “Provided the attitude is right then we should be up to the task.”
You have your answer.
Our attitude hasn’t been right for a long time. Players come and go, but we continually lose to inferior opposition. Why? Nothing to do with the quality of personnel or the under investment from the board, it’s because Wenger can no longer motivate his troops.
This season’s squad is mediocre by our high standards, but it’s still good enough to beat Swansea, Norwich and Bradford.
Wenger has gone stale and it’s time for a new man with fresh ideas before he tarnishes his reputation beyond repair.
In the main, well, what most other people are saying in the previous bar.
Calls for the Jan window to come quickly are increasing.
I’m not so sure.
Podolski was a spectator again. Gervinho, Ramsey, – it’s all been said.
I don’t want to single players out, but needs must to get my point across. These players were not rubbish at their previous clubs. On paper, they looked like good buys.
Yet now, they do not play anything like they used to before they were purchased. In fact, none of the team play together like a *team* anymore. Lots of individuals kicking the ball about without any purpose.
So where’s the tactics? Or the change of tactics?
There might be a good few things wrong at Arsenal F.C. right at this moment, (at board level I mean) but the lack of tactics and team motivation falls on one man’s doorstep.
So IMO AW’s time is up. I don’t want him buying anyone in January if he’s going to produce more of the same. Santi the only shining light of the recent bunch.
The successor is not the question. It’s whether we can continue to stomach such increasingly dismal performances.
If we can’t, then change has to come. Whether the change works is a secondary question. But have we reached the end of paying those prices to watch the best players get sold and the new players play together like that?
Well I have.
Really sorry to see our best ever manager reduced to this btw. He should have left after his prophecy of “we can’t call ourselves a big club anymore if…”.
Sure you get what I mean.
cdoyle, he deserves much, much better.
I would love him to go at a time of his choosing, and with some more success, but…
Well done Bradford.
Cup football – good days, bad days.
Fuckety fuck fuck fuck.
PS – have seen none of it, but expect to hear plenty more of it.
Seems to me, again, regarding change, we are caught betwixt a rock and a hard place.
Great post. Also with those resources firstly the club should reimburse those fans who travelled all the way to bradford stood in the cold and supported the team superbly as ever and witnessed that dire performance, LJW excluded. If Arsene is too stubborn to spend the money we have then we have a big problem. If the board are not giving it to him then that is a different matter because for me the man has worked miracles on a shoestring, but selling your best players season after season and not replacing them with the same quality has finally caught up with us. Lets hope austerity is now a thing of the past and we get a team to be proud of again.
To lose to a League 2 side with that team we put out is dismal and if only the other 10 had the same heart as LJW even without the skill we would be a better team than we are now. I actually feel sorry for AW to put those supposedly quality 11 players on the pitch and get that performace from them again LJW excluded.
I hope AW gets to spend this money at last and gets some quality players in and the lazy no heart ones out
cdoyle — I have always maintained the hope that somehow Arsene would manage to get his hands on the CL trophy with us once before the inevitable happens.
Sadly, it looks less and less likely. Arsene himself could have walked out on us and joined RM a few years early to earn the glory that he deserves as a football manager and I would like to believe he stayed back not out of the helplessness of love (at least, not only) but the long-visioned pragmatism that after a period of uncertainty Arsenal would become a truly dominating European force. Though it is getting harder to reconcile that vision with the reality that has been unfolding this season.
AW:”Where it leaves our season is to focus on the next game. Sport is about that… ”
Actually not, it’s all about the last game and not just in sport but in every segment of society. If you want something to be done properly tomorrow, you have to be certain that yesterday was good.
And I am sick of talk about the next game because there allways be that next game.
Steve T
Totally agree. The rot has set in for want of a bit of maintenance.
Now, instead of a few tinkers here and there over five seasons, we are in need of surgery across the squad.
How we respond this Jan/summer will be telling. If we walk away from those two windows without some material spending having occurred then I will be a very, very worried man as to what this owner has planned for us.
Not that spending money is the only solution, but it is an important one.
As for the manager, Tim said it all for me in the last drinks: we’re not going to sack Wenger mid season because we’re not mugs. He may walk in May though, and I am really not sure what our options will be if he does. I simply cannot believe that Klopp will leave Dortmund for us, and I’m not sure who are the other (realistic) alternatives.
A drink on my tab for anyone feeling properly gutted tonight. Here’s to better days. Starting Monday – there needs to be a big fucking response from the players.
lost in the fog tonight will the following stat (yes I realise goals are the only one that matter)
We had 28 shots on goal, Bradford had 5. Saying we were awful for 120 minutes is reactionary and is patently not correct. We sure as fuck need to work on our finishing though.
We lost on penalties…
You’ve gotta be kidding Tim.
WE WERE AWFUL!
We didn’t get a shot on target until the 70th minute. Gervinho couldn’t hit on target from 4 yards.
Why the fuck I laughed at that when he did that i’ll never know π
“If he goes and someone else comes in and restores this club to glory then it will be welcomed but bittersweet.”
cdoyle, whatever you are having and make it a double.
Although tim will not, of course, believe that I feel that way too.
I didn’t see enough of the game to make a meaningful comment, but what I did see (mostly first half) was pretty weak. Losing in a League cup, which the boss says is not a priority, game, away to a lower division side is not ideal, but can be understood, it happens.
BUT, and this is a big arse 2 ton butt, by putting out a team as, supposedly, strong as that, the boss made a statement of intent. The intent to win, this was unfortunatly not the case so the repercusions will be much greater. Mr Wenger has now fashioned a ginourmous stick for himself to be beaten with. From what I’ve read we didn’t show much passion or balls (forgive me if that’s not the case) and for that there can be no hiding. There’s no point in blaming an individual player no matter how crap we percieve them to be (believe me there’s a few that I wish weren’t with us) this is a team game and Team Arsenal lost to a team from the lowest lpro league in the land.
The shit is truly about to hit the fan, many will say it shoukd of happened a while ago, but that’s neither here or there. The questions have to be asked now, there is something deeply wrong and at the moment we can’t seem to fix it.
What are the answers to all these questions? I don’t know, but it looks like no one at the club does either and that my friends is a worrying place to be.
As Holic said; Arsenal Bloody Arsenal.
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Nonny glad you’choose to come back
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TW, condolances for your loss.
Rightly or wrongly I still believe that the board are the ones to blame. I am a big AW fan. Always have been. He is a massively loyal man and I do not expect him for one minute to come out against the board. Stan and his buddy Ivan are businessmen. They are money men. I am not convinced in the slightest that they are football people. My guess is that they still call in soccer??? I am even less convinced that they have any major interest in Arsenal unless it involves lining their own pockets.
I do not want AW to go. I just want him to be given a fair crack of the whip to use the money the club has generated and to build a side. If he does that and he gets it wrong then that is a different matter, and possibly time to ask the question.
Be the best you can be. If we are and it is still not good enough to win anything then I can live with that. I am just left massively frustrated when all I hear is how we have plans to conquer the Indonesian market, but no real plans to deal with the current problems.
Just a quick word on tonightβs game. Jack Wilshere will be the true leader of this team by the end of this season if he remains injury free. He was someone that stepped up to the plate.
Holic – good post. More and more of us are concluding that Wenger is the problem which is a step forward.
Unfortunately people in positions of power (and he has unique power compared to other managers) usually become detached from reality and it has clearly happened with him.
Unfortunately he won’t leave on his own accord – the owner who knows fuck all about football won’t fire him so it will take the fans to get him out.
Its a great shame as he is sullying his considerable achievements – but the welfare of the club is far more important.
My guess is that the catalyst will be something like Jack concluding within 18 months that he won’t ever win anything by staying at Arsenal and departing. That will be the final straw that precipitates the fans revolt and Wenger’s departure.
I hope I’m wrong and that he steps down quickly and goes with our thanks and best wishes.
Tim. It took us 70 minutes to have a shot on target.
But hey, if you think we did well tonight then good on yer.
My thoughts are with all the supporters that made the trip to Bradford.
Unfortunately you were sold a pup.
Amateur performance yet again. Lets not beat around the bush
: the manager needs to call time.
Tim,
Are you really Arsene Wenger?
Beleaguered on the long journey home from bradford. I sang my lungs out. I have no voice, no energy. The guy next to me said his ear would be ringing all night and as i collapsed in a heap after the miss, he put his hand on my shoulder and said “sorry son, thats football.”
Thats football, folks.
Holic, What a response from you. Best blog ever. If our players put half the passion and effort in their work, as you did with that piece, we would have won.
@TW
Sorry about your Nan.
“Thank you for your kind outburst and ridiculously offensive attempt at sarcasm” ~ not sure where you’re going with that, I assume the fact that the bar usually sees certain customers after a defeat versus a win. Which is often the case.
I can only guess coming at the situation from totally different places, I think it’s primarily tactics and poor choices with squad rotation. Not the lack of talent at hand and a need to chuck everyone out ‘rotten from top to bottom’ as I’ve seen it put.
@ Mark
We weren’t good – but we created 28 shots on goal, I don’t track the stats. But we should convert that to more than one goal.
Steve T @37 nice post
@Geoff
No I’m not. I would have started with Chamakh tonight.
Dr. Faustus – A thousand times, yes. One of the reasons I think Arsene inspires so much loyalty from types like us is because we recognized that this meant as much, if not more, to him than it did to us. That when greener pastures were available, he did not leave. And that he not only inspired a truly remarkable run with Arsenal, but in the process changed the sport forever. He was the rightful heir to Chapman, and right down to his name embodied Arsenal in the full. No one in the game deserved his success more, or deserves more success.
But there is no justice in the universe. Like you, I hope that this is a case of the sky being darkest before dawn. I hope that I’m wrong, and that FFP or new commercial deals or whatever do end up being the magic bullet, and that this club’s greatest manager gets to enjoy the fruits of his arduous labor before he decides to wriggle out of his sleeping bag of a jacket and leave as dignified and proud as he came.
BTW, to almost everyone and especially ‘Holic, thank you so much for having and maintaining the one space in which I can come when things are so bad, and not leave feeling even worse. Cheers to all, and the hope of better days ahead. This round’s on me.
Holic,
Really wish you’d have given yourself 24 hours before you posted that!
I’m not going to get into detail tonight – I’m just as disappointed as most others. But I am going to take 24 hours, because I disagree with alot of whats been muted tonight.
One or two thoughts:
“Be the best that we can be”….?
Well we finished 3rd last season – and that to my mind, was genuinely the fucking best we could’ve been..! And we did so by being responsible, respectful and by holding the values and virtues of the club in the highest regard. Thats down to Wenger.
I don’t say that all things are right – but we’re only half way through the season ffs, and this after all is just the beer cup.
Bigger teams, on bigger nights, have lost cup games to lower opposition in more important competitions – thats the beauty of any cup competition.
And I don’t say that we don’t need investment. We clearly do. But I do say, that I’ll let those decisions to the best manager this club has ever seen in its history. After all, he is largely the reason, why the fans have such high expectations in the first place..!
Im not going to complain though. ive made it to sixteen live arsenal matches in three months. The results might not have been all what i wanted, but ive had the time of my life.
Thank you arsenal, but more importantly thank you to all the gooners who accepted me into this family of ours.
Ouch! Shocking I think wenger has now taken this team as far as possible. Struggling to beat a team 3 leagues below us says it all!
Seems some folks want to have thier cake and eat it. Surely if we are claiming that we cannot compete with Utd,City and The Chavs because thier buying power simply allows them to buy the creamiest players, we must accept that when we play a fourth division side WE are big spending “Big Boys”.
Its understood that a loss to inferior sides is a possibility in cup football (which means we actually have an outside chance in the CL!), but really, the gulf is huge. Forget the pens — we drew after 90.Its a little shamefull I feel, (though suicide is not on my to do list).
Another Pan Gallactic Gargle Blaster please barkeep,and one for yourself in honour of you enduring abilitiy to run such a fine house, with such a stella cast of drinkers/philosophers.
Ladies and Gents. Please do not pin all of your hopes on FFP kicking in and suddenly escalating our position in footballing circles. I would be completely amazed if the likes of Chelski, Citeh, Barca, Madrid, PSG etc donβt have plans afoot to offset any losses or over spends that they may incur. Platini wont allow goal line technology. Can you honestly see him holding a Champions League campaign without the big guns, because they might have gone on a spending spree? Any club that can pay Β£50 million for a player I am guessing can afford to by some decent accountants and a decent legal team. I am sure that they already have their ways of getting around any of these new regulations.
TW – My condolences.
James – Bravo, lad. Wonderful perspective, and my jealousy knows no bounds.
TW, sorry about your grandmother’s passing.
FFP plays into the hands of one club, and one club only.
Get used to United having the pick of our players. Their genuine global reach in business/sponsorship terms is impressive.
The playing field may be levelled with the rest, however.
TW – thinking of you mate.
i know penalties are a lottery but our 2 that we did score were scored with aplomb by or 2 youngest players. The rest looked like shaking Gervinho’s coming up to take them.
H2H & tim
Thank you. It hit really hard as we were in the middle of preparing her party and came genuinely out of the blue. A big strong woman reduced to nothing in a matter of hours.
Some things are more important than football, only some, but she is, was and always will be.
Most important influence on my life and my hero right up until the end.
Again, thank you. Means a lot that we can put down the weapons sometimes and just be human again.
Gooners forever.
cdoyle, ‘Holic & abbs
See above and thank you π
Holic, nothing to add to that ……. Tonight.
Nonny,
Glad to see you came back.
I know you took exception to what I said but it was not meant in a “clear off” kind of way. That was not the intention, and it is not my place to say that, anyway.
I already said that a couple of days ago and it was sincere.
Conciliatory drink is on the bar – I hope you will accept.
I, as many, have watched with distaste as the clamour for Arsene to step down (or be removed) has increased in volume. Such calls have felt to me short sighted, simplistic, symptomatic of a certain crass mindset unbecoming of us as gooners. It just all felt a bit.. err.. Chelsea.
Nope, however bad things may get, I have never believed changing the manager was the answer.
Until tonight.
Gutted.
off topic –
Cazorla shoots too often, especially from distance..? I think he’s probably our best player when it comes to picking a pass – more of that please.
He has (I think) 4 goals this season but easily leads the club in shots taken.
Holic. Top post by the way.
TW. My thoughts are with you and your family.
Condolences Thierry at a very tough time.
Perhaps we need a striker Tim?????? Who knows. It’s a controversial one and will divide many but it might just work???? Then he might have someone to pass to????
Just a thought.
Austrian, I was rather hoping that – on the theme of being the best we can be – we could score more than 2 out of 5 penalties in a sudden death shoot out π
Condolences TW, that really is awful. She sounds like she was an amazing lady.
TW. Condolances mate
I’ve hardl ever disagreed with anything Steve T has posted on these pages over the last few years and I’m not going to start now.
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cdoyle, excellent contributions for a first time drinker, don’t be a stranger.
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Tim, I admire your optimism, but tonight there can be no excuses.
BTW, I know you like stats, so here’s one; Santi Carzola scored more goals from outside the box last season then any other player…..
I want him to shoot on sight.
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TW, I don’t always agree with your opinions, but I’ve always respected them, but at this moment football and opinions matter not a jot, I hope time will quickly heal the wounds of your loss and you can find solace in the fact that you had a long time with an increadable lady who reached a grand age.
Gobsmacked.
BMBD.
Sitting on the opposite side of the Atlantic, glued to my 55″ HD television screen, patched in wirelessly from an illegal HD stream on my laptop, I watched 120 minutes + penalties and finally decided, why bother.
Why bother watch a team I so dearly love become another underachieving, mid table, money toy for Stan kroenke. I don’t watch the Denver Nuggets, Avalanche, Rams or rapids, so why should I invest my time, money and emotions on AFC as it currently stands.
As a relative newcomer to The Arsenal (12 years) I feel even more pain for those of you who have supported them for much longer.
Wenger exemplifies the problem, but is not the root of it. Kroenke, his mirror image, Gazidis, the senile PHW and the narcissistic Tom Fox has created the perfect storm of mediocrity.
Until we the fans rally around this club which has stood for 126 years, and deny them our hard earned salaries, this dismantling of our heritage will continue.
Nothing more required than a total boycott of anything Arsenal for 3 months will bring these bastards to their senses. Revolution is never easy, but it succeeded in Libya and Egypt. A total change from top to bottom is needed.
Just the rant of someone who loves The Arsenal.
Steve T, Trev, N7 & Impressive Failage:
Thanks all. Really appreciate your kind words and thoughts. I know that she never understood my passion (or others in my family) for football, even less for one team in particular, but I know that she is probably as sad for me about Arsenal losing today as I am about her passing. She was like that.
H2H, nothing I can add to that and thank you so much.
Anyway, back to the football…
Knee firmly lowered and foot firmly placed on the floor…
Please get this right really, REALLY quickly Arsene.
Avid reader from afar but this is my first post. I have loved Arsene and everything that he has done for this mighty club but now is time to say thanks and move on. He is a great. But others soon catch up. Bow out with the memories of those fantastic moments you’ve crafted over the years still vivid in the memory. Your legend will live on. Just let someone else take it on upwards.
Hi all,
i know its a wretched feeling we all are goin through and we all are looking for reasons for the rut we are in , like many before have said , there is no easy solution i feel. What is do feel is that whatever faults our team does have, loosing arsene would not be the solution.
Here are my two cents:
1) The club took a concious descision to live within its means , that decision was taken years before the influx of oil rich money skewed the football scene. The club had invested its future on the stadium and it was too late to move away from it.
2) so there must have been a concious descision to live by these years with champs league football sustaining the youth model of buying cheap and building a team of young talented kids that would hopefully stay together and breathe into the club ethos.
3) but by that time we had mega rich clubs with inflated wages knocking on the doors turning the kids away.
so we are effectively stuck with the Stadium interests, high wages and kids who have long since left.
4) What arsene is left is the un enviable task of rebuilding the team every year.
coming to this year miserys, we have lost our most potent technical and lethal attacker, our tough tackling midfielder. The team needs time.. its not thier fault that we have been doing it for the last 4-5 years. Arsene (god bless the man) is a staunch believer in the way he feels football should be played. maybe he stubborn to a fault in that respect. the midfield which drives his philosophy are playing together for the first time.
what i choose to do this year is give them a pass, as we are very close to gaining financial trading power in the market. i hope we sign a quality backup in the january transfer market. and i hope that we make the top four(which i still believe we will). anything beyond it would be marvelous …
ahh . well sorry if i went all over the place with this post .. which i sure did.. but just hope the vitriol doesnt flow into the stadium on saturday. i love my club.. n i know how much it pains to look back at the glory days and see where we are now.. but i hope we give these guys a chance for i genuinely feel we are not too far ..
now for a total media blackout for a few days.. have a good one!
sree
TW,
As a fellow ‘Holic I can say we are sorry for your loss. Enjoy the memories of you hero, I am sure she treasured hers with you.
would have been great if we won but I’m not too surprised we lost either. The problems with this Arsenal team are nothing new…are they? They are only being magnified. The fans, players and manager keep hoping that something will ‘click’ to kick start our season (for Jack to return, the team to gel, the defence, players need a rest, transfer window FFP, etc) but in reality nothing is working.
But hey, lets look on the bright side…at least it wasn’t the cup final π
I’m not even getting text abuse… now that’s bad!
if anyone’s expecting FFP to level the playing field somehow, somewhere, i’d suggest that exactly the opposite will occur. true, United will be a big beneficiary, but i would actually expect RM and Barca to benefit immensely as well, possibly more so, since the TV revenue on offer at those 2 clubs can’t be rivaled anywhere really. forget where i saw it mentioned, but the irony could actually be that were Arsenal to spend a little outside its means for the first few years of the FFP in an effort to catch up with the big players domestically and in the CL, it may catch us in violation even as teams like Chelsea and Man City can point to a short history of (very) marginal corrections to the net spend. what’s required from that regulation will be that clubs produce a “plan” to show that they’re bringing spending in line over time. the whole thing is a farce and even though i loathe the spendthrift ways of city and chelsea, to be competitive you must spend a great deal of money to improve your lot in club football, which means that there will be precious little change at the top of the footballing world for years to come. i believe that is the ultimate goal of the FFP, to ensure that those on top stay there, as is the consequence of many a rule of this sort.
Hey, We’re a little culpable too here. I don’t recall any of us begging for Arteta to come on in the 2nd half. We knew that Bradford were known for their penalties, and we should have planned accordingly π
cdoyle @47 – brilliant stuff.
Night all.
Thoughtful post when it’s so hard to think objectively – well done sir. Some great comments too.
Dear oh dear, how many of those players were up for a midweek trek up to Yorkshire to fight for Arsenal against a team with nothing to lose in sub zero temperatures? Not many. AW, this is why you need an Adams or Vieira to kick butt and lead by example. Why has our manager forgotten his own success formula?!??
Is it knee jerk to say he’s lost the dressing room?…
Wengers fading star at our club is painful to admit and witness. I really don’t know whether it is a lack of awareness of our reality or his smooth patter for the press. Whatever the case, if I ask myself whether he is responsible for our relative decline & whether he is the man to revive us with the money available it doesn’t bode well for AW.
We all know the players who are not good enough, are played out of position and don’t give a flying ****. AND IT HURTS TO SEE IT!!!
I pray wenger can organise and inspire the team to improve our fortunes. We ain’t right at the moment and its getting more and more apparent.
Roll on a new day with hopefully a clearer head and some answers – and some changes to what patently isnt working for our next game on Monday.
COYG!!!
most of us are familiar with the plans for the stadium and the path to glory that it was supposed to represent. were it not for the big-spending oligarchs, it’s likely that the plan would have come to fruition. i do recognize this and remind people of it when they start to really get wound up about the current situation, but it has to be said that most of us in the arsenal family were begging for a couple of signings back when we were trading league leads with united and again when we were in the hunt the next year, and then the next year when we struggled to get into the fourth spot. maybe a couple of signings would have put us in the red a couple of years, and maybe they would have made no difference at all, but there were years not that long ago when we looked just a player away from the top. now, sadly, we look like 3/4 of a team away from the top. a few players have been a revelation recently like jenkinson and gibbs, but for us to say that we could have done no better than chamakh, gervinho, squillaci (yes, signed as cover), santos seems pretty mad. gervinho is not a smart or technical player at all, and chamakh, whatever his attributes beyond being free was incredibly slow, shockingly so. in fact, a few players we have brought on seem completely at odds with everything we’ve come to know about our strategic buying patterns of the past decade or so. something to think about. we brought in yossi last season who i very much liked and ended up contributing quite significantly to our season. the guy couldn’t even get on the field for chelsea. how many of the aforementioned players would see the field for a team in the top half of the table? in the premiership? i wonder actually. maybe a few of them, but it’s hard to see them being contributors of any consequence.
It’s a shame you had to wait until today to rip them. You coulda done it sooner.
You don’t want Arsene to leave – just imagine whom the Board might get in his stead.
It doesn’t bear thinking about.
I just want our team to play as if they are trying to win.
And I am fed up with excuses.
NorCal
Thank you. I hope that you are right. A lovely thought and one that I will keep with me for a while to come.
Funeral is Thursday and you have given me something much more interesting to think about for my oration than I had had in mind.
So, double thank you.
one point of optimism might be that while the net spend of a club is very much a determinant of the table position, i feel that a team like Dortmund are better than any team in England right now. and, yes, Klopp has been my favorite to take over from Wenger were he to move on, but the German clubs operate in a much saner world than we do yet happen to be producing great teams – we didn’t exactly cover ourselves in glory against shalke this year. so it might be likely that even more success despite spending levels is possible, say if we were to pick up a few more jenkinsons and a few fewer chamakhs.
its hurt so much.
its like seeing a beloved family member suffer from cancer, dying slowly, painfully.
AW has given the best he could and should be allowed to go with dignity. over the years, he has not moved or evolved with time and changes in football. his decisions are outdated and stubborn, consistently playing players out of their natural position… is he really so keen on ‘discovering’ a ‘new player’ this manner? yes, he had some earlier success (TH10 from winger to main man, Koulo DM to CB, etc)
We erected a statue too early… let the man go before the pain eats into all of us.
How much longer must we take this embarrassment for, wenger out, and take this bunch of shoit player’s with you.
“I honestly donβt know who is responsible anymore for the criminal underinvestment in this team.” Well said ‘holic.
I’ll equate “criminal underinvestment” with criminal mismanagement. I’ve been saying this club has been criminally mismanaged ever since I’ve been posting on this fine blog.
Kroenke out. Usmanov in (as he’ll spend money).
Wenger out. Simple. Arsene is well past it. He has been for a decade. Time to retire sir. We need a young, lucid Wenger that is realistic to acquire. We won’t get Pep, Mourinho, etc. as they’re too big/good for this club at the present moment. They would have come eight years ago. Not anymore. Who’s a young Wenger? Michael Laudrup — he’s also got more gravitas than Arsene. This club needs gravitas.
Absolutely disgraceful that our best available team cannot beat a fourth tier side in a QF. Shameful day for the entire club. This was the club’s best chance to end the trophy drought.
http://www.sincearsenallastwonatrophy.co.uk
Oh, and another thing, Ramsey is not a winger! Jesus Christ Wenger! Start the Ox out on the wing instead of Ramsey. At least the Ox has the pace to do the job there.
On a more cheery note, Merry Christmas all ‘holics — everyone.
So, something was bothering me here in the drinks and I just couldn’t put my finger on it. Then I went away, had a few cigarettes, a couple of beers and tried to forget about it…
And then it came to me!
I understand why we speak of stadiums, self-sufficiency and sensible spending, I truly do, and whilst there are many points of view regarding the effects of such a policy, I think that it is safe to say that the general spending on wages goes to the wrong players for the wrong contracts in a large number of cases and that is hurting us badly right now.
I also understand why the majority (is it still actually a majority though?) of Gooners want to see Arsene fix this if he possibly can and salvage some sort of decent retirement that he has clearly earned himself.
What I don’t understand is how financial constraints, a large and largely wasted wage budget and oil-rich competition are the excuses for not beating a fucking fourth division side tonight.
Are we seriously trying to suggest that the team Wenger put out tonight shouldn’t have put 6 past them without too much trouble?
This is a team that we would do that to in pre-season with 5 or 6 “unknowns” in the side and the majority of the first XI still resting up after a world cup or some such.
No easy games in football any more? Yes there fucking are and tonight should have been one of them.
So, stop with the excuses about money, competition, FFP etc. and ask yourselves this question:
If that team cannot beat Bradford with the prize of a semi-final and just three more games away from finally picking up a pot that is NOT the Emirates Cup cannot motivate itself to win the game, how exactly are we supposed to believe that Wenger can rescue this situation when it appears that he has lost the players.
Jack Wilshere would have died for him tonight, probably the Pole between the Poles too, possibly Per, maybe even Sagna (although clearly Wenger knows something we don’t and has chosen to ignore the obvious lack in the wing back’s armoury…He cannot cross the fucking ball if there is a defender within 10 yards of him!) but who else? Genuinely, who else?
We are talking about ONE or TWO players that are still playing like their life depends on it and showing the sort of commitment to the manager that he, the fans and the club deserves.
On the other hand, look at how much Chamakh cared about his penalty miss. Couldn’t have fucking cared less…
But who can blame him?! He scores two cracking goals against Reading and looks entirely useful and then gets dumped out of the squad all over again, watches the entirely fucking useless Gervinho get a start ahead of him and is expected to come on and save the day with a few minutes of the game remaining.
It doesn’t make any sense to keep pointing out what I believe to be entirely obvious. Suffice to say that if Wenger cannot fix this he should go now and the board should support their new choice with a fistful of dollars to try and rectify what all, or at the very least most of us, can see.
If he can fix this he truly needs to hurry the fuck up about it.
Couldn’t watch the game since it was at 2.45am where I live. Had a dream that we lost on penalties, then I woke up and felt a bit relieved to know it was just a dream. And the first thing I did was check .com…
I’ve read all the drinks. And it’s not like the team underperformed last night. It’s becoming more the rule than the exception nowadays that we play with the handbrake on.
I’m bitterly disappointed, but let me just say this.
If last night made AW finally realize what his signing from Lille has become, I’d accept that the COC is not such a bad tie to do this.
I haven’t seen how Ramsey played so I cannot judge.
A test of character (yes, again) for our team now. And especially for our Belgian skipper. I just hope he comes out of this on top. We need real leaders. Can somebody please stand up?
Chamakh can continue to sit down. Not that he cares.
This is well past being unacceptable. Full stop.
If this isn’t unacceptable then what is? Does it have to take a couple of seasons of not qualifying for the UCL to make changes? It seems so π
To be honest, we were more than fortunate to advance past Reading last round. There’s glass half full for ya. Where’s that Happy Train? What Mark is it currently at? Mark VI or so?
Bring on the transfer window! You know, the one we won’t spend in …
Arsenal, bloody Arsenal.
Pint of the black stuff please, Mr. Barkeep.
40 goal attempts to 8 says it all for me. What we need is a quality striker to replace the quality RvP has taken with him up North.
Frankly, the only one I would be happy with is Falcao. YES you HAVE got the money, Arsene. All you need now is the guts to admit you’re present buying strategy isn’t working. We do NOT want more second/third-rate French or French league strikers bought more for their bargain value than their technical ability. This is no longer the mid-90s and we cannot compete while only buying players the new super-rich clubs let us have because they don’t want them.
If you’re not scared enough after this Bradford debacle to spend big, what else has to happen to the club I’ve supported for 50 years before you are???
Oskar
Instead of playing Gervinho as the CF and Ramsey as a winger why not try this with the same starting XI:
1) Play Gervinho as a winger
2) Play Ramsey in central midfield
3) Play Santi as a false nine
That would have been more effective, in my humble opinion. It couldn’t have been any worse.
The penalty shoot-out reminded me how lucky we were to win our last trophy, all those years ago… π
Oskar
What about trying to get that other clogger in the January window? — KJH (Klaus Jan Huntelaar).
I just heard this on the radio: “Bradford City lies 64 spots below Arsenal in the league table.” That says it all, in a nutshell.
With KJH we’d have Santi & Klaus π
So I’ve gotten a little over 12 hours of sleep over the past three days. Researched more case law than I care to remember; didn’t see the game. But it is clear to me that it’s time for Mr. Wenger to go. I’ve seen what it looks like when a coach/manager has lost the players…it’s like kicking a broken old horse.
The players aren’t responding to him. Plain and simple…
I hate to say it. But it’s true…and you all know it’s true too.
BMBD.
My condolences, TW.
BMBD.
Another gem from the radio:
Cost of starting XIs:
Bradford City 700 K
Arsenal 70 M
Arsenal had never lost to a fourth tier side in the League Cup in their entire history until last night.
Arsenal, bloody Arsenal.
Another pint of the black stuff please, Mr. Barkeep. And a double Glenmorangie chaser. Gulp.
A couple of observations regarding the PKs:
1) Gervinho could have taken one and didn’t. If he’s not one of our five best PK takers then what the hell is he doing starting as our CF? Food for thought.
2) Rosicky (an attacking MF with a history of scoring and captain of his national side) was on at that time. I’d think he’d be a better option to take one than TV5 (true he is our captain but he is a CB unaccustomed to scoring with his feet).
Bottom line, we were utterly toothless and lost our best chance of getting silverware this season. I’m feeling gutted — again.
Correction: Cost of Bradford City: 7,500 v Arsenal 70M
I threw my scarf away the night we lost to Walsall (who were third division) at the time in the same competition. Teery Neil got sacked not that long afterwards. We did n’t get any better for years.
Roberto Schadenfreude, you make an interesting point re starting eleven cost. If the Arsenal team cost close to 100 times as much as the Bradford line up,is it really too much to ask for us to be twice as good as them? I,ve heard of diminishing returns but thats freakin’ridiculous.
Word up. The Maestro has spoken. Every word ‘Holic, every word.
Santi+Rosi= tasty.
That’s all I will say.
Impressive Failage (IF),
It’s worse than 100x if I’m not mistaken.
70,000,000/7,500 = 9,333.33x
If we keep it simple and round up, to make things easy, that’s 10,000x more. Spending wasn’t the problem last night. Although, we do also have a spending problem.
And this just in from the bookies: Odds that Wenger will NOT obtain a trophy while at Arsenal going forward: 4/6 (that’s odds on — and that encapsulates more than words ever could).
I think I’m so resigned I’m not even that down on the elimination.
Stupid mistake for the goal (even if it wasn’t a free-kick IMHO), and the most annoying thing is that once more we only started to play with 15minutes to go.
Should have murdered them in extra-time but it didn’t come off.
To be completely honest, I thought that selecting a strong team meant we were on a hiding to nothing. It was always going to be the game of their lives for Bradford, so not a massive surprise. Shit like that happens in Cup games every year, even to top teams.
Very disappointed, but sadly blasΓ©. We need to buy 2 strikers though…
I really can’t blame yesterday’s performance /team selection (as I said, I’d have preferred the old approach, but so many people were crying for this….) on AW.
Not on the day.
But good points, ‘holic, tonight’s showed the paucity of options in some sectors of the play, well up front mostly.
Massive positive again: Rosicky (and Santi, as nearly always, and Jack!).
Sorry that abb’s cat won’t have a name. Or will it be Jack as he was the first to score a penalty?
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/club-legends-to-appear-at-armoury-on-thursday
And I hope they also appear in armour and have a little speech in the dressing room π
What does ‘lost the players’ mean…exactly?
In other news – do the UK newspapers influence opinion? Let’s check the press who apparently don’t have any dislike for Arsenal:
The Mirror: “Wenger defends pathetic Arsenal stars after cup embarrassment”
The Sun: “ARSENE WENGER was clinging on to his job by his fingernails last night”
The Daily Mail “Valley of shame! Best-laid plans unravelled to expose the demise of a proud tradition”
The Daily Telegraph “Arsenalβs back-four wobbled throughout” (Hence Bradford managed eight shots in 120 minutes)
The Independent “Wenger: Losing to League Two side is not an embarrassment”
The general reaction seems to hinge on what Wenger said after the match (defending the players as always) rather than the performance by the 14 who wore the shirt. In further evidence of the press acting just as you’d expect, only Wilshere (who did play well) and Oxlade-Chamberlain escaped criticism.
I mentioned parallels to Wrexham in ’92 that were criticised last night. In fact that was a much better Arsenal team (champions at the time), losing 2-1 in 90 minutes, to a team that was worse (bottom of old Div IV), in a then much bigger FA Cup. A bigger upset really. Worth remembering too that we won both domestic cups the following season.
How we react over the next four games is far more important in the grand scheme of things than the result last night.
What does βlost the playersβ meanβ¦exactly?
Not much. It’s the sort of cheap bollocks that people say.
Tim, please tell me you made up these headlines, right? :s
Otherwise, Jaysus, what a bunch of idiotic hyperbolic cunts.
We’re also having trouble re-signing Walcott who has six months remaining on his current deal. Sound familiar? His wage demands aren’t onerous. They’re market value.
Does everyone know what is unreasonable? How about season tickets going up 3x since the move from Highbury without any trophies to show for it? Not one. Not even a lousy League Cup trophy that this grand club used to look down on. How about them apples? How’s that for value for money. Some return on investment. Bloody hell.
Even Liverpool won the League Cup last year.
Does anyone else feel like the proverbial hamster in the wheel?
@Ollie
You know I didn’t. They just reminded me of certain people….no name of course.
The league is our bread and butter,4th place will do please.as for the English press tim I wouldn’t wipe my arse with them rags.
Ollie. If some of them still have their boots they may well still get a game.
Tim. Unfortunately your last paragraph would be more valid if this kind performance was a complete one off. The paper headlines are both predictable and understandable.
Morning all. Still feel awful.
I wouldn’t either garsguns – but they do influence opinion for some. Any time we lose we’re “in crisis”, so today is Christmas day for them and their readers.
Steve…I know what you mean but after the next 4 games we’ll either be in good shape for staying in the top 4 or waving that goodbye. I anticipate the former.
Not sure if the reaction to last night finally settles the argument of “Would people rather we finished 6th and won a domestic cup – or 4th with no cups”.
i.e. Are we ready to become Liverpool? I’m not.
I’m not ready to become Liverpool. Hell no.
But you know what they think is the panacea for their club? A new stadium. Sound familiar?
Would they provide width though, Steve T? π
Just going over the back drinks, I see that I also didn’t add my condolances to TW, which i’ll do right now.
Now to face the wankers at work π
The problem is indeed that yesterday doesn’t feel like a one-off these days, Steve T.
The rest of december is still more crucial than yesterday, and like everyone I have no idea what will happen so will not take kindly to ‘I told you so’ from either side of the doom border π
If Gervinho scored the goal from 3 yards..
Then He will be hailed as a good striker
Vermalean will be the hero to score the winning goal
The players will be praised as mentally strong to come from behind..
And Wenger.. Oh. In Wenger We Trust!!
Only if Gervinho scored the goal from 3 yards..into the empty net…
Is it so difficult?
Football is a fascinating game !!!
@ Tim
At least Liverpool realised that Rafa (then there most successful manager) was no longer up to the task of delivering them the glory a club of that stature required. He had a 5 year plan in which he won the champs league and FA cup but in league terms couldn’t take them any further.
Have they got their managerial appointments since correct? Not always but they have taken the decision to move the club forward. The first cut is always the deepest as the saying goes.
At Arsenal it feels to me almost as though this has become a ‘one man bigger than the club’ scenario. One man’s history it would appear is now holding us back.
If we don’t make top 4 at season end I think AW steps down and I could honestly see these clueless businessmen employing someone like Rafa after his stint at Chavski ends.
And here is where the fear creeps in, because to a man I doubt any of us really believe that the guys at the top know or care enough to employ someone capable of moving the club forward. They may surprise us all, but having seen the team quality, and the clubs ambitions decline since their inclusion at the club means we are all afraid of what would happen if AW left.
That’s not good enough for a club like Arsenal and tells you there is something fundamentally wrong at boardroom level.
We all HOPE that this situation fixes itself, and the majority HOPE that AW is the man to fix the problems. I said a few weeks ago however, its the hope that kills you.
* Rafa – liverpool most successful manager in recent history
Well done Arsenal, for ensuring that Chelsea and Rafa have the pleasure of lifting a trophy at Wembley in February. They do say it’s better to give than receive, and it is Christmas after all.
Joe @48 – great post.
Not in a blind AKB way – it just makes sense.
Someone asked me on Saturday “what I thought” about it all. I said then that, like e erybody else, I don”t know what is going on inside the club but I do instinctively have great sympathy for Wenger.
Can’t really turn that on it’s head in 3 days, if it means anything at all.
Disintegration.
Many interesting and considered drinks, too many to mention in fact. Don’t agree with everything but appreciate reading them in any case. Here are my thoughts:
That was a massive stinking pile of turds of a game.
But let’s try and not go overboard with the analysis of this individual game. The only reason we lost was because too many players could not be arsed, we are not an inferior team to Bradford. Now, having said that, for once I choose to question the line up. Before the game, I and others said we wanted a few younger and hungrier (for this competition) players to counter the under-estimation that could come with playing too strong a team and sadly we were right. Maybe we would have lost anyway, but at least then it would have been a team full of kids.
And also, these things happen every now and then. Not that long ago, Leeds beat a strong ManU team at Old Trafford while they were a League One team (Leeds, not ManU – though we could always wish they were π ) so we are not alone in this boat. Yes yes, League One is above League Two but it’s the same principle at work and there is no way ManU should lose at home to any League One team.
Should Arsene go on account of last night? No, he should definitely not in my opinion. However, I have always said that the day the players are no longer playing for him (you know, the old “losing the dressing room” bit) then we probably don’t have much choice because once players have lost faith in their manager it is extremely hard to turn that around. What you then get is a team full of players playing individually and not as a team.
And for the first time ever I do fear that there is a very real possibility that this might have started to happen because while I can certainly live with losing yesterday (I am actually not even that bothered about losing to a League Two team even with our best team, that’s football for you and in individual games you can have upsets and shocks) there is also the fact that when you add Norwich away, Swansea at home and a few others there is a bit of a pattern emerging. Then again this may also just be a result of confidence being shaky because in other games we have played with real spirit and as a team, like against Everton away, Spurs at home and, imo, against WBA as late as Saturday.
I still, however, maintain that Arsene is the right man for us. But he has, I believe, been put in an almost impossible situation through very little fault of his own other than loyalty that goes far above and beyond. I don’t believe at all that he has become “detatched from reality”, on the contrary I think he is more grounded in reality than most of us are because he knows what is really going on inside the club which, quite frankly, none of us on the outside know very much at all about.
But we do need a proper striker bought in January. Giroud is a class player, but he is our only real central attacker since Chamakh apparently isn’t really considered worthy of even a place on the bench in league games.
Anyway, those were my rather random thoughts scribbled down while work allowed me to do so. Gotta dash again, a round of drinks for everyone is waiting on the bar.
—
Thierry Wrightkamp, my condolences on your loss.
@NB1
I agree with some of that, but I think Liverpool would be in better shape today if they had kept Benitez. Hard to say I suppose but there was no evidence to suggest that he would have managed to pick up ever fewer points in both of the completed seasons since he was dismissed and on pace for a 3rd straight year of less league success.
Liverpool (to me) went down the path some have advocated we should, investing heavily in premier league proven players. It hasn’t worked for them. Our advantage although it feels like a millstone right about now is we did make the transition to the new stadium and the revenues it brings, Liverpool are completely hamstrung financially by remaining at Anfield.
It’s depressing that we have had to spend so much more to just about tread water. Liverpool spent more and got even less.
I think there’s perhaps a 25% chance we’d do better with a new boss (assuming same spend) and probably a 75% chance Wenger can keep us about where we’ve been the last six years. Neither option is that appealing, if we do have money to spend that of course alters the picture.
I’m convinced he’ll know when to leave, he deserves far more than these players are currently giving him.
As I’ve tried to voice earlier – if we hadn’t overachieved in the league from 2007-2012 (I believe we have in relative terms) then some decisions about changing tact would had have to have been addressed years ago.
It seems a cruel irony that Wenger’s success has both raised our clubs supporters expectations to the point where people now want him out and also delayed the inevitable reality that we can’t financially acquire/maintain the calibre of players we probably need.
Here’s an interesting fact I recently came across that would even have the most fervent AKB delusional Kool Aid intoxicant take notice:
Last season Arsenal had a higher wage bill than Bayern Munich.
Absorb that one for a moment. And here comes the inevitable rhetorical question. Which squad is better?
Wenger used to be able to identify talent and get the most from that talent. Can anyone, with a straight face, claim the same today?
Therefore, quite simply, and by definition, the great man has lost it. The Emperor has no clothes. Let the man gracefully move upstairs. His time for steering the mighty ship Arsenal has passed.
Almost every regular on this site loves to sing the tune, “No man (i.e. player) is bigger than the club” when we invariably lose a top player to a bitter rival. Well, that famous motto should also extend to a club’s manager. “In Arsene We Trust” has sadly become “In Arsene We Rust”.
It’s time for a new steady hand to steer the ship. There are feasible options out there too. For those that like a proven EPL manager that has done a lot with tight purse strings then Everton’s Moyes is your man. How about an up and coming manager that has an eye for spotting undervalued talent in foreign markets (i.e. a younger Wenger before he came to England)? Then Michael Laudrup is your man.
Laudrup believes in attractive, attacking, possession based football and what player wouldn’t instantly respect one of the greatest (and Denmark’s greatest) ever footballers. That’s gravitas and respect he’d command upon his arrival — something Wenger has lost with his players.
It’s time for a change. No man is bigger than the club.
I was six. Caroline Lester was also six. In the eyes of a six year old, she was a pretty attractive six year old. She was also good at art, very good. She once drew a budgerigar for me. Her budgerigar actually looked like a budgerigar. I got top marks. Bit of cheating never did anyone any harm. Even an immature art critic like myself could see that her budgerigar had rather more about it than my matchstick men and my matchstick cats and dogs. Lowry I wasn’t.
Nope, there was nothing else for it. If I was to be saved from the evil machinations of the art teacher, Caroline Lester needed to be wooed. And wooed she most certainly was. I let her catch me in the playground games of Kiss Chase, (I didn’t let on that I was actually much quicker than her), I gave her a hand with her three times table, I even ate her liver and lumpy mash for her at lunchtime.
Come the end of summer term, I invited her to tea. You know the sort of thing, just me, her, and my mum of course. After the jelly and ice cream, there was no messing about, straight up to my room. Didn’t have the faintest idea how to entertain a girl. I could see immediately she wasn’t impressed with the Subbuteo pitch (even though I had World Cup goals with coloured netting!!!!!), and that my cowboy fort with attacking Red Indians left her, at best, lukewarm.
Caroline Lester was a pretty bossy six year old as it goes. It didn’t take long for her to realise that we had reached an impasse in our incipient courtship. She took the bull by the horns. Doctors and Nurses was the suggestion and everybody had to take their clothes off. Excellent. Whilst I wasn’t entirely convinced that Doctors did their rounds in the altogether, I was happy to comply with Caroline’s wishes. She had after all got out of her togs with what some might say was an unseemly haste, so it seemed rude not to play along. Don’t remember much about the game after that, but I’m pretty sure my first naked female knocked Subbuteo into a cocked hat.
In the Summer holiday, Caroline Lester’s parents moved somewhere exotic (Hertford I think). Most disturbingly they took Caroline with them. I never saw her again. Oh well, shit happens I suppose. I got bloody good at Subbuteo, but my marks in Art class went through the floor.
I had to wait eleven years to see my next naked female. Eleven years! Luckily she wasn’t six. Sarah Mahon, potty-mouthed and, as far as I’m aware, not very good at Art, but she was nineteen years old and had the body of a goddess. I had a nice time. Good things come to those who wait.
So then shit happens, and good things come to those who wait. A couple of mantras to get me through today. Rather better than calling our players cunts and our Manager a clown don’t you think?
tabs, have as many pints as you like on my tab! (but please don’t undress while drinking…)
Cheers Lars π
@ Tim
I appreciate your ability to see things others can’t but to suggest that Liverpool as a club would’ve been better off with Rafa is unbelievable.
Whilst their appointments have been flawed but they made the decision to thank Rafa for Istanbul and move on. As i said no one man is bigger than the club. Keeping the same manager because you fear of what comes next is not a good enough reason for a club like Arsenal to not consider its alternatives.
This is a results driven business. Not balance sheet results, pitch results. Arsene has been in the business long enough to know and understand that.
I’m a bit confused about your statistics. Why 25%? Would it be inconceivable that a new manager could come in and change something as simple as the system? You recognise this is probably a big problem given the players we have yet somehow still continue to play.
Would a new manager be prepared to play players in the correct positions, not tolerate the sorts of performances we’ve witnessed for too long? Maybe someone new could instil a spine and winning mentality in a club that now considers qualification for a tournament as an achievement.
I’m sorry I don’t buy into your stats at all. AW continues with a system that realistically requires special players. The type we don’t have. Keeping AW so that we can stay in the same position with the same frustration shows a woeful lack of ambition and, please don’t take offence, cowardice.
We need someone, somewhere in that club to grow some balls, make some tough decisions (although they seem to make these tough decisions when there’s money on the table), and bring an end to this bullshit. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like that’s gonna be Arsene – well certainly not with this board.
baff 130: great album!
tabs – thanks for the memories.
Lars – great post up there at 9.24. Don’t agree with it all but appreciate the sentiments.
Just a word about the much vaunted Academy system providing the young players for the main squad. How many? In current squad, Gibbs and Jack. Maybe that’s a good return compared to other clubs (except BarΓ§a). Frimpong is on loan. Afobe on loan but on the bench at Bolton. There may be others coming through but some of them have BarΓ§a DNA …
All the others have been bought.
January will be interesting. Not usually many bargains going in this business, especially to a manager whose head is on the block.
But new blood is needed and some players need to be off-loaded for whatever we can get, just to get them off the payroll. I’ll be amazed if Arsene is not there to manage through the rest of the season but I’ve sadly lost faith in him. He built the squad that isn’t gelling at present; he took off Coquelin last night when he was one of the better performers. How Gervinho was still on the pitch at the end is a mystery and please, if he’s good enough to be out there, why isn’t he good enough to take a frigging penalty?
Jack, for all his efforts in the second half, was putting passes astray all the time and when Chamakh put him through, the ball was on his right foot and he didn’t shoot. 50 grand a week and no frigging right foot. He should be out there every day practising using his right foot. For that money, they should all be forced to work on their weak points. Like full-backs and wingers working on crossing the ball so that it becomes second nature. 50 grand a week and only semi-competent. God give me strength.
I’ve just watched the Bradford goal again. Wojo all at sea. Ball inside the 6 yard box should be the keeper’s every time – either a catch or a punch. He goes, stops and is caught out of position and off-balance. Also, no-one picking up the guy on the far post.
Awful, just awful.
Good morning,all.
Good post as usual, ‘holic, more power to your elbow.
TW, accept my condolences, mate.
I watched that game yesterday, it amazes me how people can manage to say those players i watched do not care about the result, what this team needs is NOT passion, the players and manager have it already! We don’t need to sack the manager, we don’t even need a monster in midfield, what we need-from my own humble observations-are GOALS, early goals to make teams come out and allow us use the full length of the pitch. No team has ever won any title without having sure goalscorers in thier team, the diffrence between this team and past wenger teams is that past wenger teams always had three four players who you could bet your last money on to score 7 out of ten chances, can you say the same for this present squad? I don’t have inside information so i do not know the exact reason(s) why for the past few years we could no longer afford to buy/keep players of that quality but what i do know is that we need those kind of players who will score early in our games before we get into our routine of get frustrated, start rushing things, make rash decisions, concede stupid goal(s) and lose the game.
I’d like to know what y’all think of my above assertions.
Norcall. Not wrong. We also must stop conceding nonstop from set pieces.
Tabs: Goodman as ever. Proper perspective. But 6 + 11years = 17 and you say Sarah Mahon was 19. Or is my maths as poor as your art? βΊ
Mr Cdoyle @ 14 & 47 β That 30 yr old Macallen is on me..! Hope to see you here more often..!
Tim β Kudos for some wonderful contributions.
Trev: Thanks. I too have sympathy for Wenger β but I donβt think its to do with the owner/gazidis combo. Its just that the entire landscape of football is just crazy nowadays since the emergence of the petro clubs.
NB1 – A few points, if I may:
I think the current Liverpool side is a very pale comparison to the one Rafa managed. Rafa was very lucky to win the CL. His tenure at that club was defined by setting up a team to counter the opposition. His teams were designed βnot to looseβ as opposed to uphold the traditional possession footballing philosophy that underpinned so many great Liverpool sides. It brought moderate success but never provided a platform on which to build anything. When King Kenny came back β he frittered away an unbelievable sum of money in his first season. And now, Brendan Rogers has the unenviable task of picking up the pieces of the poor decisions made by both Rafa and Kenny. Liverpool are a shambles now and I believe they would readily swap places with AFC in a nano-second..!
I completely agree with you in relation to the system of play. I do think this needs to be changed or at least altered to suit the players. But not at the cost of loosing our football philosophy. And I fear that is a balance thatβs not as easy to strike as many would think. Otherwise, there would be loads of successful managers out there!
The final point about football being a results based business: Well only one team can win the league. And only one can win the CL. Whoever wins these competitions largely deserve to do so. That does not mean the teams that donβt are not successful in their own right. Last night a spirited Bradford side beat the mighty Arsenal. They go to the semi-final of the league cup. Itβs a result for them and will go someway towards defining what they might consider to be a moderately successful season. But they’ve won nothing yet!
You also say that, in the context that there is something serious wrong at the boardroom. Is there?
And if so, may I ask the following questions:
Has Kronke taken money from the club in dividends?
No.
Has he loaded the club with debt, as would be his right under the exchange rules?
No.
Because from where I sit, all he’s done is spent a massive amount of money to gain the majority shareholding..!
Has there been a restriction on Wenger’s budget?
Nothing that wasnβt imposed on Wenger by the proceeding owners due to the cost of the stadium. A decision that I believe helped to consolidate Arsenalβs position as being one of the top clubs in Europe and one which will have positive influence for the future development of the club at every level.
Furthermore, why has Gazidis repeatedly said that there is money there to spend and the accounts tend to support that viewpoint?
Since Gazidis has come aboard he has fundamentally changed (the largely non-existent) commercial policy at the club.
So how people can turn on Gazidis and Kronke is truly flabbergasting.
I think Stan Kronke is a very very shrewd man. He has gone from being a complete outsider to the majority shareholder with very little media attention or without any public proclaimations. I also think Ivan Gazidis is a very capable Chief Executive. They know what they’re doing and thankfully, I think they appreciate the job that Wenger has done for the club and will be supportive of his plans going forward.
And when the day eventually comes for Arsene to move on, or upstairs – I hope and expect it will be handled with the same class and dignity that Wenger has handled everything at this club throughout his life – whether its the ungrateful petulant fans who’s expectations derive from his tenure, or the scurrilous media who continuously try to undermine him and have him sacked, or the greedy players who betray his trust and confidence for the sake of having even more money!
Tabs. Thanks for your good cheer. π
Tabs, thanks for that cracking post
Joe you and Tim should post more often, i might not always agree but you guys make your points clearly and obviously think for yourselves.
Ravi Shankar is dead.
I forgot one thing in my earlier post, that may or may not have been commented on yesterday (I have not had the time to back-drink that far) about something posted on Arseblog News. In that article, Arsene said “I have one and a half years more work to do here” or words to that effect. Now, I might be wrong but I can not ever remember him saying something like that before. It’s always been the “I will be here as long as they will want me” kind of things, so was that Arsene’s way of announcing his retirement plans?
(provided it was an accurate quote, of course)
Tabs,
That is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard.
You were six years old and you ate Caroline Lester’s liver ?!?!?!!! π
Holic i think you know only to well who is responsible and who is to blame for whats going on at our club and the utter shambles and laughing stock it has become. But you still can’t admit it,or bring yourself to criticise your messiah.It really is about time fans like yourself woke up.
Apparently yesterday was ‘Come to Your Swindon Office Day’
Joe, nothing wrong with your maths mate, π
And one of your favourite malt whiskeys for you for a couple of excellent posts at 48 and 143.
Trev, heh, yep I ate her liver! Refused her tapioca though. That really was disgusting. Even infatuation has its limits π
Cheers Cent, 8Ball for the kind ones.
These are the main “on the pitch” problems for me:
(a) Strikers. Quite simply…the predominant function of strikers (like “goal shooters” in netball…or big “shooters” in basketball) is to get you points on the board by taking a larger chunk of the chances that come their way than they miss. That’s not rocket science.
Fact is, some players are good at that (for whatever reason) and some aren’t. RVP was fantastic at it. Sadly, Chamakh and Gervinho couldn’t be worse at it if they tried. Chamakh couldn’t hit a barn door and Gervinho has a skull the size of a pumpkin without much of a brain inside it to facilitate decision making in key moments. Both are poor strikers in relation to the criteria above – I couldn’t care less if they work their socks off…occasionally pull off a cool assist…or whatever…they cannot do what strikers should be able to do as second nature.
Are they getting poor service? Not a more plausible excuse for their lack of goals than the fact that they are crap strikers IMO. They do get plenty of poor service…but they get their fair share of chances too. Sure, the “suppliers” in the team could do better frequently- but I still think quality strikers would make enough of what our team provide for them to notch up a few points on the board – RVP showed that last season. If Wenger can’t see this he MUST be delusional. Get us some decent strikers – and I don’t think the rest of the team is so bad…
(b) “Desire.” The old fire in the eyes and belly. We all know it’s missing. Bradford showed that it is more than enough to compensate for lack of “pure quality” and “superior skill.” It is. Most things are more about effort and persistence than they are about skill and prowess. Last night you had a skillful team (Arsenal skill 8/10) that was semi-fired-up (Arsenal passion 6/10) against a slightly less skillful (but they’re still pro footballers for god’s sake – they know how to play too) team (Bradford skill 6/10) who were really busting their nuts to win this one (Bradford passion – 9/10).
Let’s do the maths – Arsenal 8+6 = 14
Bradford 6+9 = 15
See?! There are even equations to show how effort can compensate for deficiencies in skill…Wenger’s an intellectual. Surely he sees that?
Question is…how do you “fire up” a group of overpaid young men who, when they put in minimal effort, do not really see too much of a consequence to that? People need to WANT something…do they REALLY want it? Or is playing football simply a means to a fairly hefty financial end?
Johnny Alien And Piers Morgan
When a big team plays a small team and the game doesn’t go exactly to the form book, a common line trotted out by commentators is ‘If an alien arrived to watch this game, they wouldn’t know who was the Premier League team’.
Leaving aside the notion of said alien probably having other things on their mind than a Carling Cup quarter-final (colonisation of the planet, consumption of our natural resources, wondering why we spend much of our time getting animals to predict sporting events), we had a similar thought when we looked at Piers Morgan’s Twitter timeline during Arsenal’s defeat.
If you ever had to explain to Johnny Alien who or what Piers Morgan was, or to sum up his personality and what he’s really like, this tweet will just about do it:
‘Congratulations to Bradford, magnificent win. I’m off (genuinely..) to party at the White House with President Obama. Night all.’
heh
I have criticised Wenger a lot on here of late but please, can anyone make a reasoned case as to why he should remain at the helm? Alan Green summed it up well pre-match when he said defeat for Arsenal would be a humiliation too far. By my book that point has been reached! Defeat last night and the manner of the performance in so far as lack of a cutting edge was laughable.
Wenger’s comments about the defeat not being embarrassing are just that! By the week he comes across all the more as if he lacks the basic grasp of the reality we face: we are a poor side who can’t even beat a side from the old fourth division. And, equally as important, we are being derided and laughed at by all associated with football in this country.
Last night I could not even bring myself to appalled the equaliser as I was so angry with the farce that was unfolding on my tv screen. The away fans were outstanding, yet again! And well played Bradford, they made us look like a basic pub team, especially in the first half! Please, can someone make the case for sticking with Wenger as the situation is approaching breaking point.
Sorry, meant to type applaud in the above. That error was as basic as Gervinho’s open goal! π
‘Only In The Mail’ Sentence Of The Day
Writes Charles Sale:
‘Even in a sport whose diverse factions seldom agree on most football issues, there is a universal desire to stamp out discrimination.’
Presumably it is news to the readers of The Daily Mail that some people might not be awfully keen on racism and stuff.
Care to comment, tabs? π
Is it Monday night yet?
Alan Green summed it up well
Does
Not
Compute
Could we bring DB10 back to replace Wenger? Is he now assistant manger at Ajax ? I pray it will happen one day.
abc, good idea…. if we don’t play in Europe again π
Bring in Christoper Wreh as assistant manager
RIP Ravi Shankar, master of the Sitar. π
Ollie @156 Not really! π
Tabs, great story, but a bit creepy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVlkZVAw8Gc
π
Wouldn’t mind betting Gervinho will miss that fucking sitsr as well!
Sitar, fuck it. I am Gervinho π
H2H π
Andy π
In Arsene we trust ?
I liken it to driving down the road and listening to a rubbling and flapping sort of noise and refusing to come to the conclusion that yes you have a puncture !
I wrote last week that blind faith is admirable yet miss guided in this situation. There are many regulars who`s undying faith is not far short of a miracle. My faith however has left me, I have lost all faith in a guy who reconds the players gave there all and what more could you ask ?
Its like being on the Titanic but knowing the iceberg is there ! If the team he has built cannot beat a team in the 4th division * it will always be the 4th division to me* with the strongest side available to him then we have huge problems which ever way you look at it.
I was not upset at the defeat last night as I thought I might be as I have lost belief that this team will get us were we need to be. Is this defeat a major shock to us ? I dont think so, we are going down hill at an alarming rate without brakes.
For the goal last night if you watch Sagna he points to the guy before the free kick as if to say someone pick him up. How about you pick him up Sagna, its a joke !
Can any body answer me this question, why play a striker on the left wing and play a left winger as a striker. WTF ! Did the German get all those goals for Germany playing on the wing ? No !
Gershittyo dose not deserve the honour of wearing the Arsenal top end of conversation. I am lost for words of how this can be put right now. If we have to sell to buy we are fucked ! Who is going to buy are deadwood and why would they want to leave as they will not get that wage at any other club so we are left with them and the huge wage bill for not even sitting on the bench.
Gutted gooner with no answers
Good stuff Joe.
Damn you Trev, I see you got there before me, with the liver bit. I got the backdrinkin ‘blues.
Various hehs @ Ollie
How Anthony Hopkins was able to deliver that line without falling down in hilarity is pure genius.
AG. Go find your baby sitter. π
heh Andy G
We can only hope that AFC share the ambitions of both Manc clubs and Chelsea. If that is the case, AFC will show just as much ambition as those clubs are showing in signing Theo.
If Theo ended up going to anyone of those clubs I would be distraught. Not because he’s such a great player, but because it clearly demonstrates that Arsenal are not as ambitious as they.
There can be no doubting that this squad needs serious investment. If Arsene and Arsenal fail to make the necessary deals to rectify this situation in January, then I fear what will happen to us.
There are no excuses for last night and there are now no excuses for not improving the squad next month. If that does not happen, then I can no longer ignore the likes of Gervinho and Ramsey being played hopelessly out of position, nor players with better quality than those in the starting 11 being frozen out (Arshavin, Bendtner)
I’m willing to stick with Arsene, but only on condition that he can demonstrate he has seen what the rest of us have seen.
Time for action please…
Sorry H2H, that’s offaly bad luck. π
Joe ,
Another really good post @143.
However, I am not as convinced about Kroenke and Gazidis as you are.
I don’t doubt their shrewdness but I wonder about Kroenke’s motivation. He is basically an absentee owner who leaves the manager to front up and take the flack for the inertia that is gripping the club – if, indeed, inertia can grip something ?
When he turns up once a year for the AGM, he then leaves the manager and Gazidis to front up and take the flack from the shareholders.
His perogative for sure but, if he has truly ambitious plans for the team – yes, the team, not AFC PLC – why doesn’t he just say so.
If there really is money sitting, waiting to be spent on the team, why has Wenger said publicly that he has to make a profit from the transfer market before he can spend anything.
My suspicions over Kroenke’s motivation and plans for the business are just that, whereas you have noted only the facts of what has happened so far.
The season is not yet over and we may yet qualify for the CL again.
If we don’t, and the Arsenal profile and brand begins to shrink, what would you imagine a shrewd businessman would do, faced with the prospect of a falling share value ?
Looking forward to your thoughts. I can’t get back til later this evening though.
Good day Gooners. Nice story btw, Tabs. π
We can only hope that AFC share the ambitions of both Manc clubs and Chelsea.
I hope we share their ambitions too, but there’s no denying we can’t share their resources.
Which is no excuse; as ‘holic pointed out :
Are we the best that we can be with the resources available to us?
That’s the crucial question to which the answer is most probably currently ‘NO’.
Egg nog and whiskey please barman. It’s effin’ cold outside, not to mention the need to drown my Arsenal-related sorrows.
@NB1
Twice you’ve said Rafa was Liverpool’s most successful manager. I don’t get that one. I think most of Liverpool would point out that they were a pretty solid team during the 70’s and 80’s. Shankly and Paisley were clearly the club’s two greatest managers.
Liverpool have not improved since Rafa left. You might like the football they play more but they have been getting fewer points and on course to keep that up.
Why is that ‘unbelievable’?
No I don’t think a new manager here is destined to get it wrong, that’s why I said there’s a 25% chance he’d improve things. If the financial issues are identical will he really be able to change that much? There seems to be a theory that playing Ramsey wide on the right now and then is the number one reason we aren’t winning the league every other season. That seems far fetched.
Above tactics (which surely must show more experimentation) the biggest issue we have had is player turnover. We now have a team that is 30% changed from a year ago and 70% changed from two years ago. That lack of continuity is I feel at the heart of our results, I don’t think for one moment that it is possible for Wilshere, Cazorla, Giroud, Podolski, Gervinho to have much more than the earliest ability to play very well together yet. These things do take time. Unfortunately our player turnover the last four seasons has been the bigger factor, not Wenger losing his ability to coach.
I don’t have fear of changing but I know how often it works. Did anyone really think we should have finished higher than 3rd with the available squad we had last season? Did we genuinely fail?
AG. The baby sitter is on the shelf next to the child-size ukulele, in case you were wondering …
@NB
I saw your addendum about Rafa.
Noted.
The rot started at Liverpool when Dalglish walked away, the managerial musical chairs began immediately thereafter. Patience was limited due to prior successes resulting in 9 managers now in 21 years, so about 28 months per boss.
A couple of points.
Saying that L’pooh may or may not of been better if Rafa had stayed is pure speculation, no amount of “Fakhts”or figures can prove the arguement either way so why bother?
===
If you’re waiting for the Jan’ transfer window to solve our problems then I think you’re in for a huge dissapointment, to bring players in, others must be moved on. Who would want them on the wages they are getting at us for doing the grand total of fuck all?
===
My biggest problem with last nights game was the indifferance I felt at the result, last season I would of been beside myself, now I just think…”meh”. Another dissapointment was due to being correct about an opinion I’ve had for quite a while, that being that Gerv should not be an Arsenal player, he is nowhere near good enough. I’ve admitedly not seen the entire game, but what I did see just supported my aforementioned opinion.
But try as I might, I can’t bring myself to blame him, because he didn’t put himself in the starting XI and I’m pretty sure he didn’t choose himself to be CF, especially when there was an internationaly proven CF next to him on the wing and another sitting gelled up and ready to go on the bench. I just can’t get my head around the decision to consistently play a player with his obvious lack of quality in a position that cleary is wrong for him. And sadly, he’s not the only one being asked to do a task that he is not up to.
I realise that there are things going on at our club that none of us are privy to, maybe Stan hasn’t done this, Ivan hasn’t done that and Tom the Fox in the directors box has said some stupid stuff, but lets face facts boys and girls, none of the afforementioned have any control over who steps on to the field on matchday, that is the realm and responsibility of the manager, he makes the football decisions and the buck has to and will stop at him.
Believe me, I take absolutly no pleasure from this and truth be told even the thought makes me feel a little dirty, but Mr Wenger is now almost at the point of no return, a few more bad results then I’m afraid his position will become untenable, not from a boardroom point of view, because I believe they’ll stick with him no matter what. No, much worst, he’ll be ousted by the fans.
AKBers are on the verge of being put on the indangered species list, even the newly formed AKBBAHHF brigade numbers are taking a hit, while those who want a change of management find their numbers swelling, gaining ammunition in the form of bullets being directly loaded into their guns by the manager himself. It’s a horrible thing to have to watch, the best Arsenal manager in (most of) our lifetimes and one of the main reasons why we have such high expectations doing untold damage to his reputation and legacy.
If the, what would of seemed a short time ago, unthinkable does come to pass and he is replaced, I hope it occurs with the respect that this great man has earned, a seat upstairs would be the least that he should get. I hope that he can turn it around, but to be brutaly honest I’m not sure if he can, the squad looks tired, jaded and devoid of spark.
Please, please, please Arsene prove me wrong.
somewhere above – “Last season Arsenal had a higher wage bill than Bayern Munich”
A fantastic house in Middlesbrough costs far less than a vastly inferior one in London, or Los Angeles.
The Mayans were right…’holics are now quoting Alan Green.
Officers investigating the Jimmy Savile case are believed to want a certain Take a Bow Son to assist them with their enquiries in the light of recent revelations.
@ Joe,
A fair response. Just a few points of my own.
Rafa and Liverpool
My point was that in removing him they opted for a new direction rather than stick with someone they felt no longer could take them forward. Regarding who they have replaced him with I would agree they haven’t always appointed the correct man or one that had Rafa’s success but the point is they are trying to move on. Not an easy thing to do admittedly but that’s not to say that keeping Rafa would have been better for the club as this could have caused a huge split within the fanbsae and low morale in the stands and potentially in the dressing room.
Results business
Whilst we cannot have two champions league winners or two premiership winners we can have a team that shows signs of progress. I’m sure I am not alone in the feeling that we are not progressing. We can and should compete in cup competitions and whilst we have got to a few finals in the 7 year itch we have been unable to get the job done. To my mind we have always lacked the on-field leadership ultimately when the time has counted. I understand AW wanted these guys to be able to do it themselves but sometimes a little help my have delivered at least a cup and maybe even a league title. This is the job of the manager. He was responsible for continually playing Almunia. He was responsible for not purchasing strikers when there was a clear need (2008 springs to mind). We have gone from a team that was maybe 2 or 3 players away from being something truly special to maybe over half a squad away.
Kroenke
To my knowledge he hasn’t taken a penny out of the club although he is vague as to whether he would take a dividend going forward. Ofcourse this is his right to do so and having spent a lot of money to purchase his shares he may feel he is entitled to this course of action. Problems still remain over himself and R&W. I’ve expressed the point that whether you like the people behind R&W the fact they have close to a 30% stake means some useful dialogue should probably have taken place by now.
Debt
The majority of companies, some of the largest in the world are run on a sensible mix of debt and equity. The self sustaining model is a facade. As swiss ramble has pointed out (http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/arsenal-song-remains-same.html) we have only been able to balance the books recently due to sales from transfers. To quote the man himself:
“No other leading club has been so dependent on player sales as part of its business model. In fact, over the last six years, selling the clubβs stars has been responsible for Β£178 million (or over 90%) of the Β£195 million total profit. Thatβs great business, but it makes it very difficult to build a winning team, as Arsenal seem to be perpetually two pieces short of the complete jigsaw.”
Does this mean we soley produce talent to then sell so that we can balance the books? Kroenke hasn’t laden us with debt but has continued a policy whereby we deprive ourselves glory on the pitch for accounting bragging rights. Risk aversion can kill a business and its brand if its competitors not only catch up, but overtake the company in question. I don’t advocate gung-ho spending but its crazy to think that because we cannot compete financially with the two Manchester clubs we’ll sell them our players instead.
Gazidis
Selling commercial deals for the premiership is like selling armbands on the titanic, or water in the desert. It is the hottest ticket in town. I think the expression I’m looking for has something to do with fish and barrels. Hell even the Spuds with one season of champions league football, a god awful stadium and one league title in over 50 years have commercial revenues greater than Dortmund, Juventus, Roma, Marseille and Valencia. So maybe you should temper your praise for him doing his very well paid job.
In my opinion we cannot claim to be a well run club when we sell our best assets to cover costs. The fact still remains that without these sales we would have operated at a loss. We cannot claim to have a well run club that adopts the “we’re gonna sell you because you’re in the last year of your contract” with Robin but allow Theo who is younger and wants lower wages to potentially to walk on a free.
We are a business that has under-invested for years now and doesn’t seem to have any definitive strategy of how we will improve in that area other than FFP. And as Steve points out the teams in question won’t sore any expense to make sure they can operate within those rules.
There would seem to be a lack of direction from upstairs. I agree with Arseblog that Kroenke appears like a man that doesn’t care. That we are just an investment. His stake is worth approximately 5 times in value in terms of a portfolio mix (so his $800m stake adds $4bn to his overall portfolio value). We have money but no desire or urgency to spend it to add to the squad.
We’ve sold players when we have really needed additions not replacements. We have a manager that continues to spin the yarn that qualification for the CL is good enough. I would argue that by itself is not enough. The board appear to back the manager in the CL view and of course they would.
The move to the Grove (admittedly by the previous majority shareholders) was to compete with the top teams in Europe. Instead we have seen the quality of the squad decline whilst the owners have witnessed increases in revenue, profits from player sales, management salaries and bonuses. All this against a back drop of lower expectations, higher ticket prices and no trophies.
Finally, Fans. I am sure there are plenty of “ungrateful petulant fans”, but there are also considered fans that feel it is perfectly acceptable to question the club and those running it.
Andy @183 Lucky for you there’s more than one of you, otherwise I think I’d have to sue! π
I was six!!!!
You were six and I am still only two.
Ha!
@NB1
i completely agree with regard to gazidis. i’m glad that the club is talking about doing new commercial deals, but looking at the numbers in comparison to other clubs is somewhat troubling. for example, man city, by all accounts, still has nowhere near the same cache as we do in terms of a worldwide brand, but the rumored city sponsorship deals for their kits (umbro) are reportedly better than ours. liverpool have a special arrangement with warrior, but their kit deal is astronomical. shooting fish in a barrel is exactly right, we get a decent deal out of the emirates, but honestly it doesn’t seem like it was negotiated with any real effort at all as the money on offer is going to put us far below united (understandable) but not much above the other pretenders if at all, and the deal will bind us to a very long term deal, which is for naming rights and for the shirts. in my opinion, the deals are not all that impressive when broken down, and if a deal was to be done why not a season or two ago when we were clearly going to need to keep a couple of our best players (since moved on)? i don’t see how the commercial side of the business is holding up its end of the deal any more than the footballing side, and that’s shocking considering the amount we pay in salaries now to some of these new executives.
NB1, just one thing:
“We have a manager that continues to spin the yarn that qualification for the CL is good enough”
Well, that isn’t really true though, is it? Arsene has to my knowledge never said that it is enough. What he has said is that CL qualification is more important than the FA Cup or the League Cup, but not that it should be the limit of his ambitions. He has repeatedly stated that the number one priority is winning the league and then the Champions League and after that comes qualifying for the CL.
It’s time to call in zee Germans
Lars @188, why get in the way of a good moan?
Very pertinent and seminal post ‘holic!
Thierry Wrightkamp,
My condolences for your loss.
Nonny,
Welcome back; I always find your antithesis balancing.
Many good contributions above on my back-drink from the regular patrons and new.
My thoughts on last night: Something is fundamentally wrong with our club wrt the coaching and playing side of things. Whether Arsene is to blame is uncertain but being an AKB-ter; I’m beginning to feel saddened at the realisation that his once successful innovative coaching and man-management skills are now confined to history.
A dignified move upstairs or a “true sharing” of the on-field baton may be positive for one and all. Continuation of the current status-quo will only serve to damage the state of mind, health and reputation of a once great “coach” further, and that is what matters most of all. I only hope that the short-odds being bandied around today of 4/6 on that “we shall never win another trophy under Arsene” are the usual anti-Arsenal propoganda that is meant to further raise SAF’s demi-God status, but it is now becoming harder to defend something so palpably wrong with our wonderful club. Something is certainly “rotten in Denmark”,and I don’t just mean Nicholas Bendtner! A drink of their favoured tipple to all ‘holics in this time of “genuine” reflection. Victoria Concordia Crescit!
Drink for a Cent. Well, I wish that was the price of drinks these days π
Andy @186 Haha π
@ Lars,
fair enough.
So here we are again.
I’m leaving some blanks below on purpose.
“The greed of the board has led to 50% increases in match day programmes and 25% season ticket prices. On the playing side things haven’t been much better. Injuries to ___ and ____ have unsettled the defence and the departures of _____ and _______ have exposed our threadbare midfield. We have also signed ______ and thus have created a tactical imbalance on the pitch. A self centred individual incapable of fitting into a system….”
The date; May 1992
The Source; The Gooner fanzine
The signing who wrecked everything; Ian Wright
I was hoping to watch Bordeaux tonight, but they’re only playing tomorrow.
French football has gone bizarre with a midweek matchday spread over 3 days…. first time it’s ever happened, I think.
Oh yes, of course, television….
tabs, the Andy Gorams are a good, er, double act.
Too easy
I mean, lazy assist
1-
GERRIN
Well in cent.
Ollie, there are no more superlatives.
Tim @181
Please doin’t tell me you’re comparing Munich to Middlesborough.
Plus Bayern is one of the richest most successful teams in the world playing in (imho) the best league on the planet. PL maybe the best marketed, La Liga is a two trick pony and Serie A is a breading ground for corruption. The Bundesliga is where it’s at. Check out the group tables in the CL if you doubt me.
I see i played a 1-2 with the net.
@H2H
Of course I’m not. I agree that the German League is vastly underrated and arguably equal to any.
My point is the nature of the market in Germany and the neighbourhood the clubs are shopping and living in has little if any relevance to the price of doing business as a club in Germany. If Hertha Berlin (or whoever) had the investment City have seen over the last 4 years they’d win the league and be the horse everyone would be trying to keep up with.
It’s like saying champions Anderlecht have a lower payroll than Everton – so aren’t Everton doing badly. Complete apples to oranges approach.
“…has little if any relevance to the price of doing business as a club in Germany” — should read England of course.
Dan C
I hope we don’t see a ‘dignified move upstairs’ – that happened after Busby finsihed at Man U and made the job of successive new managers impossible for years there.
He’s been on 7 million a year for a while now so he should be able to rub along after he’s gone.
We need a clean break PDQ.
That was very effic(i)ent! Is it your first since you ’99 and ’01 previous attempts?
H2H, love your enthusiasm in celebratingCent’s goal from the tabs position.
Ollie, thanks for the assist.
Thanks, H2H.
Okidoki.
Yeah, I was exstatic Ollie. π³
http://www.football365.com/f365-says/8328259/F365-Says
West Upper,
Of course you might well be right if the subsequent coach/manager is one without the same style of total-footballing philosophy. New, modern, youthful and energetic ideas within training sessions are never a bad thing to freshen-up players’ mindset. SAF has been making such changes throughout his “management” career at Manchester United. He’s never ever been as hands-on, or as pro-active, a coach as Arsene.
I’m beginning to question just how much freedom Steve Bould is being given to coach or motivate?!
The argument has been can we find anybody who would do better than AW? Here’s a quite reasonable candidate with who nobody is likely to differ:
http://www.fantastikindia.fr/site/IMG/jpg/RajeshVivek.jpg
“With whom” of course. π
Great link Ollie.
DanC, I’m not so sure what Bould brings to the table either. I read (on previous drinks) someone saying that he should take over from AW, which, with all due respect, I find a pretty laughable solution.
He looked scared stiff when deputising in the CL, failed to act when it was pretty clear (to all us armchair managers) that substitutions may of been the best option at that moment.
Guys – I didn’t take it as hard. The 8-2 was way worse.
Hi Trev,
Good (as ever) to hear your thoughts.
When I offer any opinion on this forum β I always try to base that opinion with fact.
In relation to Gazidis and Kronke β I hear where your coming from in relation to the suspicions you harbour. But if I can address the questions you raise:
Firstly, the contention that Wenger has to make 15m a year in transfer dealings β is a misconception I believe. Wenger explicitly clarified the context of that comment and this link shows where he was coming from:
http://news.arseblog.com/2012/02/wenger-clarifies-profit-comments/
Secondly, I would question the suspicions you have especially if you look at Kronkeβs track record to date:
He is not an asset stripper. He does not buy and sell for profit. His investment is for the long term. And this has been the model that he has adapted with his other sporting enterpriseβs in the states that he has been involved with. Thatβs just a fact that anyone can check out for themselves.
Kronke is currently worth 3.2 billion according to Forbes. He could, right now, sell up and make huge profits by selling the club to Usmanov. He has refused to do so.
Fisman must have really thought highly of this man to give him overall ownership of the club. It was Fismanβs choice to do so β and this too should be respected.
Finally, to re-iterate the point I made earlier β he had not loaded the club with debt, nor has he taken substantive dividends.
All of these facts β paint a different picture to the suspicions that people are raising.
Kronke, to me, just seems like a quiet type of chap. Heβs not someone who courts publicity. Gazidis handles that element and Wenger does so too.
I feel they have been absolutely clear about the future direction of the club: self sustainment, FFP, increase commercial revenues, access new markets, continue with youth developmentβ¦β¦β¦..support Arsene Wenger. Thatβs the plan.
Kronke doesnβt need more money. Money is not his objective.
Neither does Wenger. Wenger is a multi millionaire who could instantly leave the club and command much higher fees at any of the other top clubs.
Thatβs not to say that mistakes have been made β some of the players are not up to scratch (but not as many as the papers will tell you). We are short a striker and some better options to provide width on the wings. And the wage policy is currently being changed β with resources been skewed to retain important players in the future (this is why Walcott will not be given more money, for 8 years of underachievement and is something that should be commended).
Wenger is just a guy who loves the club. Its has been his life and legacy. And I donβt think he would ever want to harm what heβs achieved here. I think he will see out his contract and if he feels that he can compete at a high level and that he has the right support β then heβll continue to do so. And I believe that this club has finally built a platform to facilitate that.
I think history will be a lot kinder to Wengerβs tenure at this club, much more than the fickle factions who compete to undermine that in the βsensationalβ online world of the tabloids and sky.
NB1:
Fair points all and again if I may comeback:
Liverpool
After the Fenway group realised the mistake they made in appointing Dalglish, who did they employ as a consultant to help them choose the next manager?
David Dein. And why do you think they did that? Could it be because he was largely responsible for bringing Wenger to AFC and they look at that space as being quite a successful move?
Results Business
We do compete in cup competitions.
We got to the final of the CL in 06.
We got to the semi final in 08/09.
We got to the quarter finals in 09/10 and 07/08.
And we got to the last 16 every other year.
And yeah, we have qualified in Europe and yes, that is by far in away more important than winning any league cup or FA cup..!
We were 4 point from winning the PL league in 07/08.
We were runners up in the League cup in 2007 and in 2011.
We do compete. When have we ever been more competitive in Europe in our history?
And in Wengers term, when have we ever won more league titles or doubles? Who else has done that?
The football landscape has changed with the emergence of the Sheiks and Russians. We cannot pay wages of 300k a week for top players. We just canβt and I donβt think we ever will. So we compete by building teams. And that takes time and a little patience. I would rather this, any day, than to replicate the sheer farce that has taken place with Man City or Chelski.
You mention Almunia β we were certainly strapped for cash with the new stadium. Do you seriously think that Wenger didnβt realise that Almunia wasnβt good enough? Contrast the transition from Almunia β Jens β Woj and the cost of that transition with say for example, what Fergie did post Scmeichel: Bosnich β Van der Gouw β Taibi β Barthez β Carroll β Howard β Van der Sar.
You mention the lack of strikers in 08, then contrast the multitude of millions (excess of 30m per player) spent on strikers that Chelski / Manu / Citeh have bought and compare that against the offensive football we have created and fashioned from players that were either home grown or bought at reasonable money.
Lacking leadership? Well the team contained many players who were captains of their international countries. You can bring a horse to the waterβ¦β¦β¦
Last night I saw leaders – Wilshire, Cazorla and Rosicky were outstanding, even though we lost! Because leadership is not just defined by winning, but also by how we react to adversity.
Kronke
Without re-iterating what I have said above to address Trevβs comments, I do agree with you that dialogue should be extended to R&W. I even think Dein should be brought back to the club, in some capacity, because I feel for all his misgivings, he still could contribute something in a positive way. I would prefer to have him inside the tent pissing out………..
Debt
The swiss ramblers comments must be taken in the context that its always a retrospective analysis. The choice of the club to develop the Highbury property portfolio itself was a gutsy move β but no-one at the time could have forseen the property decline. They never capitalised on this anywhere near as much as they hoped and this was a setback in the plan. And the emerge of the petro clubs was unforeseen also. So as such, the player transfers paint a different picture.
In relation to these transfers: Many of players that were sold, Wenger wanted to sell. And those whom he did not want to sell, left because they wanted to go for varying reasons. But there can be no doubt, the fact that we had not won anything played an important role in those decisions, especially to the ones that gave 8 years at the club (RVP/Cesc).
The contention that we should lever the club into debt to gain market share and to increase competitiveness is a valid point. And I do feel that if Dein was at the club, we would have pushed the boat out for some of those transfers. But I also think that Wenger cautious approach has stood to us in the current economic climate and provides a platform for the future.
The contention that we are depriving ourselves of βgloryβ for βaccounting bragging rightsβ because we havnβt put the club into debt, I frankly find hysterical and way wide of the mark. Manu is in debt because of the glazers and is the largest football brand in the world because of the work they have put into the commercial front. RM & Barca largely divide the Spanish TV rights between themselves and their loans have been underpinned by the Spanish banks/government in the past. But the Spanish economy is a very different animal now – and all of a sudden many clubs find themselves in difficulty and its become a market to source players.
Consider how much money has been put into Citeh and Chelski to increase their βbrandsβ and do you honestly mean to tell me that this is the type of βsuccessβ that we should be trying to replicate?
Is that what you see when you look at Citeh or Chelski β do you see a success story? I donβt and I say that irrespective of how many cups they win. The situation is nothing short of a farce.
Gazidis
Say what you will about how easy it is to get commercial deals β but the reality is that no-one in the clubs history sought to properly address this area until Gazidis came on board and those who did beforehand made a dogs bollox of it. To slag him off now for bringing in lucrative deals which will mean more money for investment in the team β is very unfair.
I donβt think we wilfully sell our best assets but I do accept that the wage policy needs to be re-structured so that we prevent important players from leaving just because of the enormous gap in earnings. I donβt think weβll ever close that gap β but we may reduce the margin. The club tried to tie RVP down β and was left with no other choice than to take the money. The situation in relation to Theo is entirely different in that Theo has largely remained a player with lots of potential and little delivery over his 8 years here. You cannot advocate a re-structuring of the wage policy and then reward players who have consistently failed to deliver in the past. Thatβs a mistake weβve already made and its one thatβs currently being rectified.
Wenger has been performing miracles in keeping us in contention with the upper teams. He has done this on a tight budget so that the stadium could be financed to consolidate the future of the club. He has done this, in a climate where the Sheihks and the Russians have spent unconscionable sums of money β and not all for the greater benefit of the clubs theyβre involved with, or indeed for football as a whole, which is why FFP is coming and will have more teeth to it than people think. And he has done this in a climate where the property bubble and banking markets have been in turmoil.
Wenger has singlehandedly revolutionised every facet of this club. Thatβs my take and I donβt ever question any fans right to express concerns because Wenger doesnβt get it right all the time. But things could be an awful lot worse and by comparison to other teams in the England β we are largely regarded to as a model in how to do things the right way.
But then again, I guess there are some fans who will never be happy no matter what..!
H2H, I think Bouldy himself said last year, when he was first rumoured to take over from Ricey, that he didn’t fancy management.
Arsene haters out in full force, okay have it your way but you at least have to name a replacement that you won’t complain about. Can’t do it can you.
Actually thought last nights cup tie was great to watch for some sick reason…..we fell behind, kept getting closer and closer and finally evened the score…..after that it was anyone’s match. I cannot fault the effort, just the end product and our ability to be more direct with our play…this sideways garbage makes me moan loudly. Also, if we are going to cross into the box 20 times a game, could we actually start a player that is an aerial threat?
I say bullsh*t to the free kick that led to the goal. How TV could have gotten out of the way when the offensive player ran right into him? Complete sh*te call. Seen this plenty of times against Arsenal and for Arsenal. Wasn’t the reason we lost though.
Couldn’t believe OX was yelling at Chamkah about a bad pass when only 20 seconds earlier he skied a cross into the stands with three guys in the box. I laughed.
If our club is in shambles what does that say about the rest of the PL? We’ve played like dogsh*t and are still close to a CL spot. I know, I know it’s not about qualifying for the CL, it’s about winning the league…I get that. Hopefully, we can get on a good roll at some point.
Hope the haters post the same number of times as when we get three points. Doubt it. COYR!!!
Clearly, the current fare on the table is enough for you Joe.
In my book the near misses on winning the league in Eduardo’s leg year etc etc was a completely different team to what we are now watching all too often. Today, they seemingly have no idea how to create a chance. No movement up front for midfielders to work with. There just isn’t any tactics.
It’s a long way off from recent (trophyless) years, where at least the football was enjoyable.
The current spectacle is torture.
And H2H… NO! When AW goes, he shouldn’t move upstairs. He has too much influence, his feet are too far under the table. Hence Bouldy looking lost in temp charge of the ECL games come sub times… don’t want to upset the boss.
Disturbed
Disillusioned
Degeneration
Disintegration beckons
Mark, I don’t think AW will want to move upstairs anyway. He loves football too much, being involved from a distance, however slight, wouldn’t suit him I suspect.
We haven’t been able to stick the ball in the net at a satisfactory rate for seasons now. RvP’s wonder season last term masked that long-term problem. Ferguson lost the title last season on goal difference so went out and bought the best striker in the league. We sold the best striker in the league. Nevertheless, how professional footballers of international calibre miss so many penalties in a shoot out is beyond me. That was nothing to do with lack of effort, bad tactics, zonal marking, bad reffing, red zones or any other ill laid at the team’s door. Is it just because they couldn’t be arsed to really concentrate and care even for one kick? If any of that team leaves the club saying it is because they want to win trophies, they need to take a long and hard look at themselves in a mirror.
Hey ‘Holics.
Got to travel today for the funeral so not going to be around for at least a couple of days, maybe even a few more if the usual Kerry funeral procedure is to be observed!
Just wanted to sign off with a few little ones:
Lonestar, Lars, Mark the spark, Cent, DanC and anybody I may have missed off that list: Thank you so much for your kind words. Gooners forever, regardless of league position π
Tim:
You know EXACTLY what “lost the players” means. It means he cannot motivate them to win games like Bradford with almost a full-strength starting XI. Don’t be so facetious, it is not becoming of anybody, let alone an intelligent Gooner like your good self. (See what I did there?!??! ;))
And sorry to say this but…
“How we react over the next four games is far more important in the grand scheme of things than the result last night.”
…is the most boring mantra Arsenal FC has had in my lifetime and I, like many others, are sick to death of hearing it. Seriously, we have been saying that for years now, not weeks. This is not, as you claim, “a crisis”…”every time we lose”, this is a lot of very faithful AFC supporters asking the only questions that truly matter right now.
1. Can we get out of this?
2. Do the board have any interest in us getting out of this?
3. If the answer to 1 & 2 is yes, is Wenger the man to carry out the rescue operation?
If you truly believe that nobody has the right to ask those questions given our current situation being:
1. Our worst start under Wenger
2. Arguably the worst squad under Wenger (although surely becoming less arguable by the minute)
3. Our current contract issues with Theo and Sagna.
4. The constant selling of our world class players.
5. The constant replacement of our world class players with cheaper imitations.
6. We just got knocked out of the tournament that represented our best chance of silverware this season by a team that cost almost 10,000 times less than ours, that contains some semi-professional squad players, that did it without any terrible trouble and looked generally better than us, more organised than us and more willing than us in almost every position on the field.
…then I think that you are simply not willing to understand why people are even asking the questions and that is troubling indeed.
Support can be blind and that is all well and good, but we should also remember that a blind supporter will never see, especially when he does not wish to.
Regards the newspaper headlines, I agree completely. Total trash, but nothing new for the English media. Although one did catch my eye…
“Wenger defends pathetic Arsenal stars after cup embarrassment”
…which I felt to be very close to the truth, although what I believe it should actually say is…
“Wenger looks pathetic continually defending Arsenal stars after cup embarrassment”
Can we imagine SAF doing the same?! Not a fecking chance and ManUre seem to be doing pretty well under him, no? It is high time that Arsene realised that if he doesn’t simply man-up, he is going to lose his job and then half of the pampered, overpaid, useless, passionless dross that he has in his squad will be finding a dole-queue fairly positive stuff. If he REALLY wants to defend the players, it may be a good idea to make sure that he is still around to actually do so. Doing it in the media and dropping the usual bollocks like “difficult pitch” is now simply beyond the fucking pale. How odd that Bradford didn’t make the pitch look so fucking difficult? How odd that our captain couldn’t get close to their winger all fucking game and yet their winger was, as far as I can remember, playing on the very same pitch, was he not?!
You are 100% correct regarding the lack of any criticism towards LJW & The Ox. The English press only slag off their own players when they are playing for their country! How patriotic! HAHAHA!
The parallels that you draw re Wrexham have one major flaw in them…We only actually really got a decent team together again AFTER changing the manager. Careful what you wish for π
Ollie: Jack the Cat in the Hat?!??! Sounds like a great name…Go for it Abbs!
Meanwhile, see above regarding “lost the players”. Also Ollie, I regard you as one of the most thoughtful and reasonable posters here and generally like reading your comments. However, claiming that things that other Gooners are saying, and loudly, is nothing more than “cheap bollocks” is a little unlike you. Just saying π
Lars:
“That was a massive stinking pile of turds of a game.”
You should get a job writing headlines for the British press! Already doing a better job than them! Well in sir!
“But letβs try and not go overboard with the analysis of this individual game.”
But therein lies the problem. This individual game was also an individual game against Sunderland, Norwich, Swansea, Villa and others including games in the Champions League where we simply did not turn up. Not sure what the solutions are but I know that trying the same things over and over again (Gervinho at centre forward, Ramsay on the wing etc.) and expecting different results is the very definition of lunacy.
“The only reason we lost was because too many players could not be arsed.”
Then sell every last fucking one of them. If they can’t be arsed it doesn’t say much about them, but surely it says even less of the man that bought them, trains them, motivates them and then stands up to the media defending their sorry asses!
Ok, knee back down, but I think the point still remains.
TaBS:
“I even ate her liver”
And you are wondering why her parents left town with her soon after?!??! Cannibalism rife in your part of the world? π
North Bank 1@137 knows.
Cent@141
You want an opinion and mine is that we didn’t even have a shot on goal until the 70th minute. Having players that can convert 7 out of 10 chances is all well and good if we are getting the ball into the positions required to actually create those chances. The Rotter was an exception in that his ability to score from nowhere or create chances out of nothing meant that we scored goals even when we were not creating those chances and so things looked better than they really were.
Without his magic and without him as a focal point, we appear unable or possibly even unwilling to do the necessary running to find the positions into which Santi, Mikel and Jack can feed the ball, even when they are actually passing it well enough to do so.
Again, the problem here comes down to selling our best players, those capable of creating those chances and those capable of getting goals from nothing and not necessarily of the players themselves, although they cannot possibly be entirely blameless regardless.
Joe@143:
You make some interesting points there and although some are pure speculation and some appear to be just wrong, I am happy to say that you have giving me some interesting new angles on some issues which I will now go and chew over willingly. So, well, thanks!
Trev@148:
HEH! Seems you beat me to it, but I will leave it in for emphasis!
TaBS: You refused her Tapioca?!?! And you wonder why you never saw her again!
So many more great comments from “both sides of the fence” and so little time left but just want to say that, regardless of your point of view, we ALL have our reasons for loving this club, we ALL have our reasons for believing what is required to solve the problems and, most importantly, we ALL have the right to air those opinions here for as long as ‘Holic deems the bar to be open to the public.
I love all of you so much and I only hope that whatever paths are taken to get us there, we are all laughing and smiling again, riding the Happy Train again and generally getting along again…and SOON!
Take good care ‘Holics and see you after my trip which will hopefully be just before we hammer Reading on Monday and I can write something yummy about the players taking pride in the shirt, great effort, great play, great goals and a rosier outlook in general.
That way Tim won’t dislike me quite so much π
Here’s a quote from FourFourTwo’s upcoming Arsenal special, by Monsieur Wenger himself.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1261427/arsenal-boss-arsene-wenger-dwells-on-what-might-have-been?cc=4716
It was made long before the Bradford tragedy, so may well shed new light into Wenger’s thoughts. Are the transfer exodus decisions really out of his hands?
Joe #218: Great post. Plus you cheered me up so cheers!
Gedo #220: Loved your post. But I don’t think there are many haters here and that’s why we’re all here.
And anyway it was only the League/ Milk/Liitlewoods/Carling Cup (what a difference a day makes). We’ve got a run of winnable games: if we win the next 3, then I think we can all be a little more confident…
I have absolutely no idea how this season is going to pan out…
I love how when someone takes his time to write a lengthy post that explains his points in details then another person comes on here, chooses two or three lines out of said long and detailed post and uses them to make fun of the whole post (and possibly the person that wrote it) all the while not bothering to address any of the points presented in the post, it really shows how matured and classy you are. Dimwits.
TW, great post @225, mate. I feel we are both stating the same problem, just that our hypothesis of the cause and solution of the problem(s) are diffrent, while you believe it’s the mangers fault and has to go for us to get better, I believe it goes deeper than the manager and we don’t neccesarily need to change the manager to get better, while you seem to think that most of the players doesn’t care, i think most of them actually care more than we give them credit for, you think most are not good enough and should be shown the door, i think most are good enough they just need one or two top quality additions (namely a deadly striker) to compliment and bring out the best in them, you think the board and owner doesn’t care about the fans and only want to line their pockets, i think they care so much so that they choose to make the tough decisions and take the risks required to set our club up for the next century and beyond. Anyways, my thoughts (and i believe that of all the many gentlemen and ladies that frequent this bar) are with you at this difficult time, take care.
Cent. I plead guilty. Dimwit is not the worst thing I have ever been called, however. π
Derrick, thanks for that link.
Gedo we are NOT Arsene haters – we respect what he accomplished in the past (up to 2005) but feel that it is painfully obvious that he is now well past his sell by date. It’s clear that a number of our best players have recently concluded the same and voted with their feet.
We believe that the welfare of the club is far more important than one man and that this is best secured by getting someone else in who will be more open to fresh tactical and man-management approaches.
There are plenty of managers out there who I believe could get more from the current squad – but hopefully the senior management in the club can identify even better replacements.
I just don’t believe that Wenger is the only person in the world who is capable of managing Arsenal successfully. His tenure will have to end one day – no need to be frightened by the prospect. Arsenal will flourish without him.
Sometimes less is more or so I tell myself π
Dear 8Ball, i definitely did NOT have you in mind when i wrote 228, i actually had to backdrink to check why you would think i was referring to you, now i have seen some of the jokes you made in the drinks, it’s obvious you were joking at those times. I was referring to the people who come in all seriousness and instigate a debate and get a response only to start making fun of the whole thing.
H2H @216,
Agreed, Bould’s certainly not a “number 2” or has the authority but at least he should be able to contribute new ideas to the mix, if permitted to. I don’t think any of us ever expected him to rise to the task of managing a CL tie with any competence at this early stage in his first-team “cherry-popping”.
Joe @218,
Excellent points regarding Kroenke & Gazidis, and Walcott’s contract wrangles.
Thierry @225,
Good points wrt commitment and the on-field professionalism of the starting line-up against Bradford. One has to ask though who is to blame for the “lack of” the afore said? The players or the manager/coaching staff?! I now am not so sure who is more culpable; and worryingly, Arsene now seems more the cause for reasons that seem to be based sorely on that he is the sole remainihg common denominator!
Cheers Joe,
Points taken. I understand that Kroenke doesn’t need any more money, so what does he plan to do with the club, I wonder.
In the absence of any statement of intent, we are left to speculate, individually, on what that might be. And that is what is causing such rifts amongst the fans. None of us knows .
I take your point that Danny Fiszman was happy to have him acquire a majority shareholding, but if he has good news for us, why doesn’t he just say so ?
We now have a hostile minority shareholder who cannot get board representation, harbouring a friend and confidant of the manager, who works for an absentee major shareholder whose intentions are entirely unknown.
And some people are wondering why we cannot attract better sponsorship deals into the club.
It’s a wonder any major, well structured, successful company wants to come anywhere near us.
Joe, James, TaBS, Ollie…keep walking on that sunny side.
Holic, nice,restrained piece. Spot on with your comment on Manure’s commercial acumen (which is why Steve T keeps hearing, and indeed needs to hear more of Indonesia).
Surprisingly, the sun rose here this morning. Maybe it was just a Tuesday night beer cup game after all?
Somw what Freudian slip by the photo editor and caption writer at the Mail & Guardian.
http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-12-arsenal-stunned-as-bradford-win-cup-shoot-out/
Cent: I think you may have been directing #228 at me. Or maybe not (I’ve had a few jars and am slightly off-kilter if you get my jist).
But if it was directed at me, then you are mistaken — I’m most certainly not taking the piss out of anyone. And I’ve been here for a while — in the shadows (and that aint suppose to sound sleazy).
Point is, you might have #228 wrong. I meant everything I said in #227.
Great posts by Joe and TW, both sides of the same coin, differing opinions well put, both wanting the best. A great debate.
West Upper.
I can understand where your coming from and I see your view, however…
……….he is now well past his sell by date. Itβs clear that a number of our best players have recently concluded the same and voted with their feet.
I can’t remember any of the departed ever bad mouthing Wenger.
I’m gonna make myself pretty unpopular here, but sorry, I can’t hate van Persie…..,.. there, I’ve said it (ducks for cover)
I think he was badly advised and the way he left will always leave a bad taste in the mouth and ofcourse a little bit of me dies everytime I see him coming out for the filthy mancs………………
But can I understand his decision to leave? Yes I can.
He knows much better then us what’s going on behind the scenes and he stated that he didn’t like the way the club was being run…….
This may be complete horse shit, but bare with me, what if there is even the slightest grain of truth to what he said……what then?
The futher this season goes, the more significance his words seem to have, I just can’t get them out of my head.
Now I ask you all, from AKBΓ©rs to Arsene Out-ers and everybody in between. Are you happy with the direction our club is going? In the words of Steve T (and now ‘holic) Are we being the best we can be?
We can continue to call him a cunt and a rotter and a traitor or whatever, but (at least up to now) he has never turned on Arsene or us the fans.
If you don’t agree then I understand 100%.
Trev @226.,
Precisely regarding brand value. So one must ask; so if the board is so money minded and are “clever” business-people, then why would they permit their commodity to continue to lose its value? Isn’t that the major “no no” of business economics 101?! So with that knowledge, are the owner and board really the main cause of concern wrt onfield underperformance? Please discuss…..
H2H @240,
Certainly painful but seminal words from the berk. :-/
H2H
I’m with you – I don’t hate RvP – his exceptional performances last season got us the CL spot and he left for a big fat fee – not on a free. He’s no Cashley.
Someone said in a previous post that players rarely leave a side winning things and I think there is something in that. I really think the lack of success is a big factor in the decisions not just the money.
H2H:
Are we making the most if the resources we have? Absolutely not.
Do I hate RVP? Of course not, I don’t blame him at all
Trev, i understand your fears but i think Kroenke has actually stated his plans for the club. The two times he attended the AGM he has always said words along the lines of 1. He is all about stability and is here to stay for he longterm. 2. He trusts the board and the manager to run the club responsibly and will not be interfering in their respective jobs. 3, He doesn’t intend ejecting or injecting cash into the club i.e. The club will have to live within her means.
Matt, the jars are definitely doing their job.
H2H, the points you make @240 (especially about RVP) have been eating me up since he left, I’m glad i’m not alone in that respect.
IMO RVP went as close as professionalism would allow him to go, he couldn’t just come out and say the board are shit and you’re being taken for mugs could he?
Ollie @ 223, I suspect you’re right. The man has pride, there’s no doubt of that. π
TW @ 225, excellent post.
I’ll ask again what I asked in the previous bar, are you happy to continue to pay to watch what is being dished up currently? If not, then change has to come.
I wish for that change. What I DO NOT wish for is for AW to be hounded out by a fan backlash. He deserves more than that.
But whether his pride will allow him to concede that his ideas are no longer working is another matter.
H2H:
Fair comments, I don’t hate RvP – he gave us everything he had last year. I feel ambivalent about him. I won’t get over the fact that we sold him to them, did pride or fear get in the way? A fear that that word would get out after selling him for a perceived too low price that a 30% higher offer was turned down. We could and should have sold him to Italy — but perhaps Ferguson had the only firm offer that the player would agree to? Will we ever know?
I’m not happy with the direction English football is going first and foremost. Money dictates where titles go to a greater extent than ever I believe, of course it’s always been a factor to some degree but before City and Chelsea I don’t remember top 4 teams stockpiling players to this extent, seemingly for no other reason than to stop someone else having them. Before Chelsea and City you have to go back to the early 80’s to see us regularly losing our players before they peaked.
As for the direction we’re going – I don’t know. I don’t think you can measure than 40% into your fixture list. So far it’s not good, other seasons it looked fantastic up until February and ended up just where we might this season – 3rd or 4th.
If we somehow get to 68-72 points we continue on essentially a lateral course, if that’s the rawest definition of our success. For many I understand it is not.
Trev,
I was just in a rush to make a point and address both the questions you raised and some points I wanted to take up with NB1, so if my points have been construed as being somewhat cocky or authoritative then I apologise. That was not intended.
But I guess it looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on this Trev. Because I do think Kronke has made his intentions clear and known.
He has made various statements at the AGM and on Pravda.
Gazidis has reinforced those statements time and time again.
Thatβs not to say that Kronke may not take a dividend sometime in the future, but going from the steady way he seems to have conducted himself to date, I think that too will be handled and timed in a sensitive manner. We have no reason to think otherwise unless of course, as you say, we just speculate.
Neither is it to say, that he might make more profit if he decides to sell later. The only point Iβm making β is that he could decide to sell now and crystallise that profit which, is the proverbial βbird in the hand and not the one in the bushβ eliminating all future uncertainty β but he has chosen not to do that. And his previous business enterprises β do not suggest that this is a man who makes short term investments. I can see no reason to doubt him. Can you?
And is it really surprising Usmanov is outcast given his behaviour to date?
In relation to the point you make about the sponsorship deals, do the more recent deals that have been announced with Emirates and the muted shirt deal with Adidas hold any cause to be somewhat positive..?
This is dull if you don’t enjoy stats. So skip it perhaps?
I know I like my stats…but I wanted to check if my perception of 3rd place being the only summit we’re currently equipped to reach is fanciful or plain reality. I think the top 2 are pulling away in general and wondered if that trend is becoming more pronounced. Are we forced to spend more to just stay still and face a gap that can’t be bridged?
So here are the recent total points for the top 2 teams and the teams that finished 3rd and 4th. Followed by the difference in points and percent.
Top 2 3 and 4 Diff
12/13 171 131 40
11/12 178 139 39
10/11 151 139 12
9/10 171 145 26
8/9 176 155 21
7/8 172 159 13
6/7 172 136 36
5/6 174 149 35
4/5 178 138 40
3/4 169 135 34
2/3 161 136 25
1/2 167 148 19
0/1 150 137 13
99/0 164 136 28
98/99 157 142 15
97/98 155 128 27
96/97 143 136 7
95/96 160 134 26
94/95 177 151 26
93/94 176 148 28
So divide the columns by 2 and you get the average point totals for a top 2 side or 3rd/4th place side.
What does this show us?
This season is of course projected – but if it continues as it has this season and last season show 2 of the 3 highest gaps between 1,2 and 3,4 in 20 years of tracking.
With only a modest variation the gap between the top two and the rest continues to grow.
In the last 10 seasons the gap between the two groups has been less than 30 combined points 4 times. In the 10 seasons prior the gap was never once as large as 40.
The points needed to finish 3rd/4th doesn’t change much . The last 10 years the average is 71.3 points, the 10 years prior it was 69.8 points. Essentially a one point difference.
The league was its most competitive between 1995 and 2003 and never since. Isn’t that end date when Chelsea went all Russian?
The points needed to finish top two has increased. The last 10 years you’ve needed 85.6 points, the preceding 10 it was 80.5 points. A significant 5 point leap. The last two seasons it looks even more pronounced (if this season plays out as it has started) at 87.3 points.
Only 2 of the lowest 10 total points totals for the top 2 were in the last 10 years, versus 8 in the first 10.
Finally, the points gap between the team in second in 2nd or 3rd. This is where it gets interesting.
For the last 10 seasons the gap has been 6.9 points, the 10 seasons prior 5.1 points. So essentially 2 points bigger gap. However over the last 5 seasons that gap has swollen to 8.2 points between 2nd and 3rd. Two extra wins and two extra draws. That’s huge. The last 3 completed seasons it is 9.7 points (and this year on pace to be 9 points)
In summary: It’s looking more and more like La Liga unfortunately and I think that will continue. We’re playing catch up with a target that’s pulling further away, so even treading water it will feel like failure.
No idea if that makes sense but I do a lot statistical analysis for clients, so when the numbers demonstrate my preconceived notion it always feels good.
Is that relevant to us? Only in that clawing back into the top two is harder than at any time in the last 20 years. If it seems that way it is because it really is. The premier league is in danger of becoming more exciting to see who will finished 3rd and 4th than top 2.
Tim & Ollie (112/113) –
“Lost the Players” is hardly cheap bollucks. You’re looking at what it means. It means a team where the coach can’t motivate his players to beat an (with all due respect) inferior team.
Losing to Bradford is tantamount to the Chicago Bears (since I know you followed them, ‘Holic) losing a playoff game to the University of Texas Longhorns.
It should never, ever happen.
And we’ve seen ample times in recent years where the team hasn’t played up to its potential. Call it playing with the “handbrake on,” call it what you want.
It’s clear to me that our manager can no longer press the right buttons be they tactical or motivational; a fresh voice, some fresh ideas are sorely needed.
Bollucks? I don’t think so.
BMBD
Is it just lip service? I hope the hell not. If it is we are tired of hearing the message.
“I think I am frankly tired of getting up here and delivering the same message,” Gazidis said. “Tuesday night was not good enough and it made us all upset and angry. I would like to apologise to all of you, especially the fans who travelled up there. It was unbelievable support as ever and you deserved better.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2247102/Arsene-Wenger-rues-sale-Robin-van-Persie-Samir-Nasri-Cesc-Fabregas.html
Evening all. Some really top posts above I must say. The vast majority make very interesting reading.
The above is a link that I think has already been alluded to. It is comments like these that frustrate the hell out of me. AW says that we were building a top side and then he had to sell the likes of Nasri, Cesc, RVP and Song. Now you can argue that the sale of all 4 was a result of mismanagement. Song and Cesc both had several years remaining on their contracts. The contracts of RVP and Nasri should arguably have been sorted long before they approached he last 12 months of their deals. But what really gets to me is this. The sale of the above 4 players raised over Β£100 million. Whether we anted to sell them or not surely that is enough to buy adequate replacements??????? Donβt be fooled by this we have to sell every year garbage either. AW has said that he did not want to sell any of them.
Be the best you can be. Fuck my old boots, itβs not rocket science is it?
re: “Lost the players”
‘It should never, ever happen’.
But it does…always has…always will. That’s football. We lost a cup tie to a Div 4 team (lg 2), same as in 1992. George Graham wasn’t accused of losing the players when it happened. Cup upsets are the nature of the game. The reality is Wenger has only lost to lower league teams in domestic cups twice in 16 years.
I don’t buy the american football comparison either. Pros vs Amateurs, men past college age vs men in college. If that american football game you propose ended in a tie and then was decided by some equivalent of penalties (a field goal kicking contest where linebackers have to kick?) you might be a bit nearer.
According to your definition of losing to an inferior team Alex Ferguson ‘lost his players’ on these occasions and I only bothered going back a few years:
2011 – Europe lost to Basel (UEFA Coefficient 48 at the time)
2010 – FA Cup lost to Leeds (championship)
2006 – League Cup lost to Southend (league 1)
If you think Wenger is past his sell by date that’s your feeling and of course that’s fine. But this ‘lost his players’ thing is daft, I don’t see or hear of dissension in the ranks or players refusing to come on as subs (see Tevez) or failing to follow instructions (see Joey Barton).
sorry….Leeds were League 1 at the time…so an even bigger upset.
Tim @249,
Nice and interesting work there mate! This has been my thinking since the sugar-daddy phenomenon entered the EPL. Instead of looking at the Spanish league, even closer to home, the Scittish Premier league is a better example. Wrt that, I am still waiting to see which “top” club will become the Glasgow Rangers of England?! Any of the current top 3 could forseably be that club and it would only take a couple of non-footballing events for that to occur. Unfortunately, the EPL is an ecosystem all of its own which doesn’t, at the moment at least, confirm to the rules of natural economics and survival of the fittest; but that time will certainly come, I am very sure of that.
Wrt to “being the best we can be”, we are not being that at all both on the field of play and, a little less so, off it. On the field of play, the coach and manager has to take the blame without exception! Off it, the owner and board enter the fray but I feel that the manager, especially when he has been there for so long and is fundamentally part of the inner circle and is so pivotal at the club (whether we like to believe that or not), MUST have a say. You cannot be the highest paid individual at your club (greater than SAF) ahead of any player (including those reputed “worldies”, like Fabregas & RVP, that have left if you have no influence or leverage on such of-field matters)! For us to believe anything otherwise is equatable to the naive defending and attacking play we now see week-in, week-out at the club and the post match “lip service” we now hear so often that doesn’t reflect the palpable reality.
The owner and board certainly have a responsibility but they surely are not to blame for the incomprehensible on-field results and performances we have seen this season thus far, and in those seasons past.
Tim,
I think you’re analysis is a bit myopic. [I’m not going to take the time to review total game tallies and results over the past four or five years, partly because I should be drafting a memo (but mainly because I am lazy…and because I don’t think I have to do it to make my point)].
Over the past four years or so, this Arsenal team has more and more often not played up to its capabilities. The Bradford loss was just the last straw for me (but our losses to Norwich, Wigan, Swansea, and the like are in the same vein). All too often this squad doesn’t show up in games “they should win.”
This team has experienced a steady decline in performance in recent years. Such decline doesn’t fare well when mixed with losses like “Bradford.” Even when SAF had the shocking losses you mentioned, his teams still WON trophies (from your point):
2011 – Europe lost to Basel (UEFA Coefficient 48 at the time) – but Manure did WIN the LEAGUE.
2010 – FA Cup lost to Leeds (championship) – (forgetting that the relative difference in player quality between Premier League and Championship League teams is not as great as the player quality difference between NFL and NCAA Division I players) but Manure did WIN the FA Cup.
2006 – League Cup lost to Southend (league 1) – but Manure did WIN the FA Cup.
Oh, and by the way, they won in Europe in 2008. So, even when they had these “hiccups,” the team as a whole was still consistently winning trophies…no consistent decline there.
So what’s the reason for the difference? I think there are many factors, but my main point is more subtle (and more gestaltic in nature). This team more often than not amounts to LESS than the sum of its parts.
If you believe Wenger is still as innovative and inspiring as he was, more power to you…but I know a team can stop responding to a coach. It happens all the time in the NBA. I’m quite certain we have passed that point (and the Bradford loss was just the exit ramp).
We can go on a 10 game run of wins, and, though I will be extremely happy, I will still think we have crossed the Rubicon. It’s time for a change.
One final point, the American football game I proposed would never, ever end in a tie. That’s why I proposed it. The gulf in talent is just as stark as between us and Bradford (and the quality gap should have been on display yesterday…the desire gap certainly was).
BMBD
A few observations on the above.
Joe @ 218 – an excellent post amid a sea of angst. Thanks for that.
RVP’s performance last season went some way towards making up for a lot of more questionable ones prior to that BUT .. his “open letter” during the midst of his transfer machinations was wholly self-serving and utterly disrespectful to the club and it’s supporters, some of whom now seem to have disturbingly limited memory. After all, it was your intelligence that he was insulting at the time.
Over the years a number of posters have in various tones “announced” their permanent departures from this bar only to reappear again a few minutes, days or weeks later. I seem to think that NY Gooner may be the only exception who never finally returned although even his grand farewell was spread over an extended period ostensibly to prolong his disagreement with Tabs (nice post by the way @ 134). I only mention this because it occurs to me that despite his faults, at least Arsene has the courage of his own convictions. Unlike some I think.
Up the Arse.
Cent @234. Thanks for that. I didn’t think you meant me anyway. It was just another example of my pathetic attempts at humor. π
I like to come here when we are winning, was a tad late after the WBA result before the lowest point kicked in. Sad, considering how promising it all looked in the beginning with the new signings who were not panic buys, the new assistant coach, the new feel to the whole game till the cursed interlull. Not sure where the problem is or what the solution is, just(not too comfortably) numb. Strangely, I’m reminded of a couple of Dylan lines. “Something’s happening, and you don’t what it is, do you Mr.Jones?” and “You can’t win with a losing hand”. All we can do is hope, the darkest hour and the dawn and all that. Drinks for everybody, we need it.
I liked your analysis that shows United accomplished things despite the upsets (although incorrect about the FA Cup…Leeds beat them). Fair point. I wasn’t suggesting United showed consistent decline, quite the opposite in fact. I was suggesting, and still am, that major upsets in cup football are part of the game. They rarely happen to Arsenal but saying they ‘should never happen-ever’ seems to be a desire rather than a reality.
I don’t see how I’m being myopic when I am simply using your definition of ‘losing the team’ to illustrate that it might mean many things but it doesn’t mean you drew/lost on pens a match a match you ought to have won. The cases of Tevez and Barton illustrate it somewhat better although I think the term is daft.
There’s no parallel to be drawn with American football, so why go there. In theory the rung below the NFL is college football so if the Univ of Texas rank 25th they are in essence 50ish rungs below the best NFL team. It would be fun to see it – but I think the nature of the sport means the college team would never win. That’s not the case in football as evidenced every season by various big clubs losing to teams far down the league structure.
I agree 100% that we appear to accomplish less than the sum of our parts, before the season started I felt we could finish as high as 3rd and not miles off the top two like last season. I also think we accomplished more than the sum of our parts in 2007-10. This season I felt we might perhaps close the gap to 7-10 points by conceding far fewer goals than the atrocious 49 last season.
It doesn’t look very likely today, we’ll see where we are after the month ends. I think our squad is good enough for third, but it hasn’t started working as a unit as quickly as one would hope. Lack of goals being the primary factor. RvP’s goals were never going to be replaced by one person, it now looks difficult to do it with two but there’s a lot of season left. I don’t see mutiny on this team, I do see poor use of rotation and tactics that are far too rigid. In May if we are still in 7th I think Wenger will elect to walk away and he deserves the next 6 months to see what can still be accomplished this season.
Is Wenger innovative and inspiring to his squad? I can only guess at that, just like you. Ultimately to your question, I’ve no idea, and I’ve not suggested he is.
I’ve never known a manager as loyal to his players and fundamental convictions about the game in all the years I’ve followed football. Maybe that’s a bad thing to you, I don’t think so. These are only opinions, same as you. Myopic is a fun label for me to get for the first time in my life, I am more concerned with where Arsenal go over the next decade than losing one beer cup game in Yorkshire. The first 45 minutes at Reading were far more embarrassing than this match.
And talking of hope and the fact that stranger things of have happened, what if we could win the CL by some strange (positive) quirk of fate? At least that way if AW wants to leave, there’s some redemption. For someone who has done so much for the club, it’s criminal to leave in such abject circumstances.
Tim,
Well said. I think ( my opinion) where most of us are frustrated is not that this was one game.( We have won the corporate cup twice with AW so it is no given we would win it this year. ) The frustration of most ( I would guess) is that this was not the one off. The one off this season is when we play well. This has been happening with more frequency over the past 3-4 seasons than it did in all of the previous 10-12. We have all watched our best players leave over the past 2-3 years while still at the top of their game. We have watched our team struggle to tread water near the top of a very competitive league. We have felt relieved that we finish in the top four only for a new season to see us make similar mistakes and struggle again. Arsenal needs a good shaking to make a step forward instead of sideways ( sounds like our game).
None of us can predict the future. None of us knows if AW is the man to do that. History tells us he can pull this together and get us up to top 4, but history is also ( painfully) showing us that is all he and this team can achieve. I know winning is not everything and that we have had longer spells of mediocrity but we need to pull ourselves out of this malaise now or risk being passed by others and having to work that much harder just to get back to where we are now.
dennis10 — I was thinking along exactly the same lines. Some more application, a more cohesive performance, some luck, a purple patch in terms of form and it is not inconceivable. I know most would find even the suggestion to be ridiculous, but this has happened before. Very recently.
However, even if we can get to the SF and end the season with 3rd/4th in the league it would still be a success. Actually, a resounding success. Especially given what is being predicted now.
Obviously it is not just the results — as Tim mentioned, upsets like this can happen in a Cup, has happened before, very rarely to Arsene’s team but that doesn’t mean we are exempt from the rule of Cup upsets altogether — but the wretched performance of last month that has really troubled the majority of the fan base. It is indeed true that we haven’t looked this slow, ponderous, flat, lacking invention and joyless in our play for such a long stretch of matches anytime in the Wenger era. Our defense actually held up well enough, the goal differential is +10 due to that, but we have been only rarely impressive as an attacking force.
I think therein lies a profound danger of the brand Arsenal — even in the last seven years of empty cabinets the sheer entertainment value of Arsenal football was a strong enough brand to win new admirers. But if we trot out performance like the ones against Villa, Everton (competent but prosaic to the extreme), Swansea, WBA (felt better than what actually was being played because what happened in the previous week, but from a neutral perspective still very ordinary) I am not sure we can maintain the Arsenal’s brand integrity for that long.
It is crucially, vitally important for the health of the club — especially given the projected path of growth which relies heavily on the commercial deals being renegotiated significantly in our favor — that the Arsenal brand of Arsene years is maintained or enhanced upon. Trophies are our goals, but if we cannot attain those because of the financial mismatch (as expertly analyzed by Joe and Tim) we must at least always ensure that the football is entertaining (not talking about the darkly comic here): fast, skillful, inventive. The turgidity on display in recent weeks is alarming.
Sounds like Dr. Feelgood, Shaft and Carlos Kickemhard should know something about this Mr McAfee from their travels. He sounds right up their line:
“He claims he is being persecuted by the authorities in Belize, whom he accuses of corruption.
Belize Prime Minister Dean Barrow had a more prosaic explanation: “I don’t want to be unkind to the gentleman, but I believe he is extremely paranoid, even bonkers.”
After making his fortune from the anti-virus software which bears his name, Mr McAfee has lived an eccentric life, funding start-ups, flying small planes low over the desert, and most recently, attempting to synthesise antibiotics from jungle plants in Belize.”
The complete article is at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20705370
H2H, regarding RVP my view is shifting too. The more things unravel the more I understand his decision, and the more I am sickened by the fact that we could not, or decided not to hold on to our former captain. He was the best player in EPL last season, and looks the part this season as well.
Gazidis, the board, and AW has a lot of explaining to do. New commercial deals, highest ticket prices, continuous transfer surplus – now please do the talking on the football pitch and the transfer market. Be the best we can be. That’s all us fans could ask for.
COYG
@NorCal
I think you’ve reluctantly hit the nail on the head. Getting into the top 4 with the current financials of other clubs is reaching our current pinnacle. Do we take a domestic cup if it means finishing 6th? I wouldn’t. We should be able to manage both and if not for Chelsea and Birmingham City would have done so. That would have reduced the pressure more than perhaps even keeping a player that we’d have liked to and still finish either 3rd or 4th.
A new manager might find us playing a different style of football and getting more from some players/less from others but assuming the same fiscal constraints (which I still have no true understanding of after reading half a decade’s worth of debate) are in place I don’t honestly think a clever hybrid of Jose and Pep can take us to the top of the league. The gap is growing, the big two should be a big three (with us in 4th) but Chelsea are in some outrageous cycle of self-defeating managerial prophecy that has kept the door open wide enough for us to get 3rd last season and possibly again now based on their recent troubles.
It seems sick that we are spending 50% more on wages than in 2008 and (I agree) having a weaker squad to show for it. It is a bit like a inflation simulator where the very best you can do is tread water and even that is less than constant. There are some missing facts in the financials – I don’t know where the truth lies. Is AW stubborn or is he restricted in spending? I was shocked to see that our true profit has been mostly the result of player sales – that wasn’t the bill of goods what the new stadium was meant to come with. I’ve a sick feeling that by the time all of the facts are public it will be too late to do a single thing with that information.
Should the club take payroll up to 170 or 180 million in the next 3 years to secure finishing 3rd? If we did that is it wiser to offer a Pardew length contract offer to Jack Wilshere this summer at ‘silly’ money? Is that the prudent thing to do? Or sign a marquee striker and pay what you have to pay? I think the transfer fee is there but the wage structure kills such action.
Would the rest of the squad balk at that? Who else do we have in today’s first team that we absolutely must keep for the next five seasons?
Tim,
Your comment on a Pardew length contract for Jack immediately led me to think back to Cesc’s contract. Heh. And sadly, even if a player has 8 years in a contract left, if he thinks he’s undervalued he’s bound to be unhappy as well.
Maybe the football world is in a bubble state, and bubbles burst eventually. Or maybe football is that attractive to continue attracting marquee commercial deals with other sectors. I just want to see transparency from the board and the Club and see us striving to be at our best. Nevermind the super rich, losing to Swansea, Bradford, Norwich etc is just not good enough. So is going down 4-0 to Reading at one point.
blimey…I’ve mumbled too much nonsense the last week about Arsenal. I should work on my own blog!
Anyway thanks for talking and collectively wondering about our club. I miss living in London for one major reason, going to the Arsenal and having these long drawn out conversations before and after the games – so thanks to ‘holic for hosting this place.
I will say that the 70’s & 80’s weren’t as successful but we hardly ever talked about finances and the board and had far more fun. The music was better too.
We were more united also as a fan base – and I think it was because our expectations were lower and thus often exceeded and rarely left on the table. Top 6 at Christmas looked tasty, European nights…if only….and when Benfica swaggered into town we all felt a bit naive. Although that first leg in Lisbon was my favourite ever away trip. You already know how I feel about Wenger – he’s class – but nothing will ever beat Anfield in 1989. I’ve never expected more than that – so I’ve never been let down.
COYR
A fine California wine is on the bar for you Tim. Cheers from the other end of the state.
NorCal — I know looking back at the actual tables and what we achieved in each Cup competitions in the last few years not much positives can be gleaned, but more often we actually had competed strongly on multiple fronts only to start faltering at March-April, primarily due to squad depth (or lack thereof).
Last season was a dogfight to stay in the top 4, top 3 was hence a relative success. Especially given that sometimes around now we had simply been written off.
But the season before we were in all four competitions for long. Then happened the disaster of the League Cup final. Disaster not because we missed out on League Cup, which honestly speaking is really meaningless for the health of the club, but the fucking unbelievable tailspin that the team went into. To be not able to arrest that was one of Arsene’s major failures in recent years (up there with Gilberto-Gallas etc.). But for a large part of the season we were looking very good, even topping the table for a while in mid-season if I remember correctly. If we had had a bit of luck against Barca away the season would have yet turned out to be memorable.
The run to the CL SF in 08-09 was memorable, especially with a very young squad, beating strong Villareal and Roma sides. The 07-08 league campaign that we lost due to primarily that challenge on Eduardo (not an excuse, and did highlight lack of squad depth to a certain extent) and its aftermath (Gallas I never really liked) was something we could be proud of.
The point of this nostalgic rambling is that we haven’t been that bad a team in recent years as the theme of failure to win trophies may make us feel. I think deep down most of us acknowledge that, and that is why Arsene used to enjoy so much support with the fan base. The overwhelming reasonableness of the Arsenal establishment — including its fanbase — has been you might say a greater surprise given the strength of the irrational undercurrents that control the destiny of most top level football clubs.
But more importantly, what had sustained this very reasonable large fanbase in those years is the joy of watching Arsenal. Yes, we used to ship goals in the most ludicrous manner. Yes, at the business end of each season some implosion or other would happen. But for the most part of the season you can safely anticipate a thrilling, exciting performance — sometimes immature, naive, but always with enough technical abilities on display and glimpses of a potential future which is brighter.
Cheers…..Clos du Bois Merlot sounds good about now
In San Diego I get to go and hassle Warren Barton about his days with Newcastle and him being routinely torn to bits at Highbury. I support Wenger with a passion from afar and give our local team’s manager a hard time. Makes sense eh?
Faustus,
Totally agree with your nostalgic rambling.
I think you left of the last few sentences though.
Having said all that, the last 2 years have been a dog fight to finish top 4. Our form throughout the seasons has been a crap shoot. I will agree that you play the games you are given but this year we would not have gotten out of the group stages of the CL if we were in any other group except possibly Manures group.
The constant reshaping of the team each year has made it impossible to have a cohesive, flowing team. I am not going to single out players but I will say I don’t think playing certain players out of position is working at all. It has worked in the past but Ramsey is not a winger. Gervinho is not a striker. Arshavin should play in the middle. Poldi is much more of a striker than a left winger. Even Arteta ( who has performed admirably ) is not a DM. Is our vision of ” total football” that anyone can play anywhere?
I don’t think AW will be fired and I now think he will not step down until his contract is up in 18 months. If that is true then the only thing I see making an impact on this year and next is to spend some major money on 2-3 world class players. A striker and someone who can cross a ball are a must and a defensive midfielder who won’t get muscled off the ball. Kos and mert should be our CB pairing and someone needs to coach the defense on making sure everyone is accounted for on set plays.
It’s not rocket science. And if AW stays that 18 months he needs to step up and tell us that this shit stops here and everyone, I mean everyone is accountable in making this right!
Fair points Tim. (Although I got that FA Cup information from the Manure website…I still feel dirty)
I think most in the bar would attest to the fact that I have never ever seriously been a “Wanger Out” type.
I, too, think he his class and has done immeasurable good for the club. I just think that the team, albeit not mutinous, is no longer responsive to him.
It’s a pity.
I also think the American footbal analogy has legs (no pun intended), but I’ll leave it there.
Drinks on the bar in honor of respectful debate.
BMBD
In re: The American Football analogy, I can offer something of an informed (and probably verbose) opinion having covered American sports as a professional for a fair number of years:
If you were to collect the ~70 best players out of the college ranks, coach them as a unit for a couple of months, and pit them against the worst team in the NFL (let’s say the Cardinals or the Chiefs), the college team wouldn’t score a touchdown. There’s an outside shot that they could potentially kick a couple of field goals. They would give up something in the order of 70 points. And I’d be seriously worried that someone would be paralyzed in the process. The issue with the disparity has to do with the nature of the sport, which emphasizes physical maturity and the accumulation of thousands of hours of dedicated skill and strength training. Some of the collegiate skill players (quarterback, wide receivers) would have some muted joy on particular plays, but the interior lines would be absolutely crushed, and the naive collegiate defenders would be made to look silly by the professionals’ far more advanced play construction and sheer speed. Conversely, you could take the worst player at his position in the NFL, and were you to transplant him into the college game, he would be a god that inspires schoolboys across the land to recite his accomplishments in song. The odds on this contest would be roughly 100:1.
Basketball would be slightly more interesting, but only in the sense that the nature of the sport would preclude a shut-out, and the ability to concentrate the talent into a very small number of players (11-13 players suit up for a team) would make the margins finer. But the worst NBA team would probably beat the collegiate all-stars by a magin of at least 25. Odds would be something like 40:1.
Baseball potentially presents the closest corollary to association football, in that beneath the major league level, there are five levels of the sport in which all players are professional. However, those minor league teams are in place purely for the sake of talent development, and the competitions and resultant standings/titles themselves are meaningless (in no small part because the rosters are entirely transient, with players shuttling between the levels based on performance or lack thereof). So minor league baseball really is more like the reserve/youth teams each football club has. And just as you’d expect if you took the best players from the reserve teams in the Prem and pitted them against QPR (“Theyyrree a t’riffic bunch of lads, those kids, but today wasn’t theyyre day,” shouts ‘Arry from his car window), a roster of the best players from baseball’s minor leagues would be outclassed to the point of embarrassment by the worst set of major-league players you can gather. Odds would be something like 20:1.
This is a long way of saying: The gap between Arsenal and a fourth-division team is much, much smaller than any possible scenario in American sports. This is a product of wide-scale, autonomous professionalism within the FA, and also the ability of lower-league teams to focus roster construction and training to a particular aim. While an Arsenal should and always will be something along the lines of a 10:1 favorite against a Bradford City on their home turf, those are still very short odds indeed relative to any analogous situation in American sports.
Sorry to prattle on about this. This is what happens when you encourage a first-timer to post again! Particularly when the first-timer has prevailed on a bottle of France’s only worthwhile export not named Thierry Henry.
Cheers all, and thanks for the warm welcome.
@ CDoyle…
I enjoyed that…thanks.
So in essence re: American Football “It would be fun to see it β but I think the nature of the sport means the college team would never win” wasn’t far off.
Perhaps I follow the wrong sort of football?
…..then again no.
[…] Hopefully the nadir is reached. Wenger during happier […]
http://www.francefootball.fr/#!/news/2012/12/13/001630_zico-aurait-fait-mieux-que-messi.html
Since Messi broke that record that nobody ever bothered mentioning before, there have been two claims of it not being a record.
One from a Zambian player, and now one from our very own zico.
Is it true, doctor?
Wonderful post Joe, very well argued.
However I’m sure you will agree that too many times recently our team has lacked shape, discipline and movement. It’s also a bit weird to play without a striker. How did we reach the situation when we have only one striker – albeit he looks a decent player – he’s injured and we’re stuffed!
I see in various meedja that Mr Timmeh has gone into self-important cunt overdrive….
“The AST cannot fathom why 70 million pounds were left untouched this summer. Arsene needs to get over his distaste for spending and use the resources that are provided by hard pressed fans who watch the team.”
There boys and girls, dare I say it is the root to many of the problems at our club. For those who still wonder why certain fans voice displeasure at the current situation, or those that think there is a media witch hunt against us just read that quote. We make our bed, we lay in it.
I must say that I fully agree with the above. Sometimes I really do think that we do not make it easy for ourselves.
Steve T: I would suggest a healthy dose of scepticism about those alleged Β£70 million. I still haven’t seen any proof that that money actually does exist and is available to spend.
Moreover, even if that money does exist we still have to pay wages to any players bought. We are already losing money each year without selling players, so I would suggest we are spending as much as we can or arguably even more than is really healthy. Now this does of course not mean every penny is spent correctly (evidently not as we still have too many passengers in the squad) but I seriously doubt we could have spent more money than we have been doing. Having cash in the bank does not neccessarily mean that cash can be spent on buying a player because what we need to be able to pay the running costs as well. We do have a number of contracts that will run out next summer (Chamakh, Arshavin, Squillaci, maybe a few others as well) that will free up some money and with the new commercial deals I suspect we will see us be a bit more bold in the transfer market.
That’s all ‘holic’s latest blog is about, isn’t it, Steve? π
Anyway, for those who, like me, plan to get tickets for Man City at home they go on sale for Red Members at 10pm UK time so time to log on…
(and yes though, I agree with Lars regarding the Β£70m figure)
10pm? 10 AM of course π
Planning to, Lars, but I think I’ll wait for Tx as usual though, Lars.
Lars, did you get that, Lars?
I still don’t know how I’ll come to the Newcastle game.
My trick of using points for the outward journey only may still be the best.
But I didn’t expect the single for the return on the last train on the day (the only one under β¬212.5 – β¬240 on one-way journey) to jump from β¬115 as part of return to………… β¬175 as one-way
Seemed to be a few seats in clock end lower behind the goal (could have made my clock end lower debut), but they seem to be goned when I tried.
I’m still reluctant to pay full upper-tier cat. A prices.
Ollie, I am still trying to get onto the ticketing site but so far the best I have gotten is a 404 Not Found…
-d
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/gervinho-called-up-to-ivory-coast-squad
Rejoice, he is (expectedly) away in January π
Denilson has won a trophy.
#vindicated (or something, heh)
Lars, it got me to an error page but kept me logged in.
Could get my hand on upper tier tickets, but decided it wasn’t desperation time yet.
Good luck logging in!
Well, now I am logged on but can not see the interactive map of the stadium… *tries to wait for it to appear* and then all of a sudden I am place in the dreaded queue where you go backwards as often as forwards. So I guess that means I am stuck here for the next X minutes π
Someone really ought to have a few words with whoever developed the software for eticketing.co.uk.
Ollie, I assume since I am only getting a ticket for myself that I won’t have too much trouble finding one. And if I don’t get one now I’ll either wait for TX or get one some other way, so no real panic if it goes tits up today.
Well, back on but no interactive seating map available. I have to search for a seat closest to another seat – but I must figure out a valid row/seat number first…
cdoyle –
Thanks for the well reasoned and well presented points. (Tim so were yours.)
I’ve nothing more to add on the subject.
TaBS – I enjoyed your story. Reminded me of my childhood. π
BMBD
Well, sorted now. Block 92, row 28 (which is the back row I think), so a rather good seat in my opinion.
Right, off to lunch.
Boom
Well, I was late for the assist, so adjusted my run when reaching the box!
Well played Lars, for the ticket and the assist π
Yeah, 28 must be back row or thereabout. You still can’t stand, mind, as the walls want to watch the game too π
re : 294
http://www.arsenal.com/news/reserves-news/loan-watch-sao-paulo-win-copa-sudamericana
Denilson even started the game! Winner!
Well, the half-game, it seems!
Lars, Ollie.
I agree that no one actually knows how much is available to spend. But the club cannot keep making big profits in the transfer market, releasing figures say we are so wealthy, releasing figures saying we have record turnover, charge the prices they do and then say we have to be prudent. It just does not wash.
I don’t know how much there is but if we want to be considered a big club then things need addressing.
Agreed, Steve.
Ollie@301: unfortunately, even in the back row they won’t allow you to stand. I’ve been in the back row once (think it was for Bolton last season) and me and a couple of others were standing up but were told to sit down by a rather embarrassed steward who almost apoligised for having to tell us to sit down.
Steve T: but are we really making that big profits in the transfer market? And again, the transfer sums are only part of the deal. Any club in the Premier League could easily pay the transfer fee for almost any player in the world but very few can afford the wages. If we are running at a loss of, say, Β£25 mil then we have to make a Β£25 mil profit in player trading just to cover those losses – or get the money elsewhere which is where I dearly hope that the new commercial deals will help.
But I most certainly agree that the spin that the club has put on the supposedly great financial results should have been toned down. I understand that they want to portray the club in a good light becuase that is important when doing commercial deals but the focus on the “profits” have probably been far too big. In the long run, honesty is probably always the best option.
Lars. We have hundreds and hundreds of millions in assets. We are worth over a billion according to the last figures I saw. We are a business. I see no point in having those assets if you do not use them to build upon. I certainly am not asking for a wild spending spree that we can’t afford. But I have said for years now that for us to grow then we need to invest. If the money is not available then that could be the biggest case of mismanagement in the history of our club.
Speculate to accumulate. My feelings are that the board have sat back for too ling now and been satisfied with AW working miracles. Each season we have come closer and closer to being found out. If we had dealt with this 5 years ago it would not have reached the levels it has now. Evolution and not revolution. Prevention and not cure. Those have always been my views. Sadly, in my humble opinion we have now got to the cure stage having only paid lip service to the prevention stage.
As I said, just my opinion.
Lars, 306, that’s what I meant. I’ve had that experience twice.
The second time I had some vague hope as we managed to stand for a good 5 minutes at the start of the game, but those hopes then got crushed.
Heh Ollie, was a bit rushed so I misread your post@301 completely π
Still brooding over our Bradford debacle…. for some resaon, this one really stings. It’s not just one result in isolation of course.
‘Holic, I really hope that this is THE Nadir and that we finally press on from here, put a long string of wins in The Prem together and go on to win a cup.
Honestly, that was easy to type but is very hard to believe when using the rear-view mirror for navigation. We’ll see….
Steve T – It seems Blogs has picked-up on your “arewe the best we can be?” mantra. Quite right too.
Lars – Hope to catch you again in the new year. When are you over?
Everything crossed that Arsene can motivate the team sufficiently to dig their way out of this hole. It’s looking like a really big ask.
UTA!
TS, City at home in January.
TS: your rear-view mirror doesn’t work well. Only a very short backdrink would have avoided asking Lars the question π
Today is the ‘we can’t read’ day π
Drinks for all, it should help!
http://www.football365.com/mediawatch/8329604/Mediawatch
NSFW today π
Cheers Lars, is your trip just for the game or will be around for a day or two either side as well?
I see Ollie is now the back-drinking as well as the grammar nazi π
… by the way Ollie, NSFW simply doesn’t cut it.
You need other warnings as well such as have you eaten within the past 2 hours and are you of a vaguely sensitive disposition.
I don’t know what’s worse, seeing his grundies or that horribly smug look on his face.
TS.
I should have put a copyright on it.
Good point, TS.
The woman narrating the recorded training course sounds like a duck.
Annoying.
An electronic American duck.
cdoyle, Interesting post on pro vs college teams in the U.S. It is noticeable how even star college American football players disappear for a couple of seasons once they turn pro before reappearing much larger, faster and tougher.
Steve T,
Quick! File a patent on “we need more width” π
Me, I’d be happy with some decent finishers. Stil, there’s always Theo. What? Oh….
*weeps again*
http://www.football365.com/news/21554/8329558/Parlour-Wenger-Is-No-Dictator
It’s fair to say that Ray Parlour has worked with AW more than Stewart Cunting Robson.
Lars, I have re-logged in to check what’s up with tickets: there are 33 rows in block 92, you’ll have plenty of people behind you!
Ollie, I did in fact check my old ticket purchases and noted the same thing – I have been in row 31 in the same block and that was not the back row so I am a lot closer to the pitch than I originally thought π
Looking forwards….
It strikes me that the best thing we can do is to lock-down all of our ‘must have’ players to prevent our excessive squad churn and re-building every summer.
Here’s my ‘essentials’ list in no particular order:
Jack, Santi, Bac, Gibbs, Poldi, Verm, Kos, BFG, Jenks, Ramsey, Szcz, Giroud, Arteta
(and yes, I realise, some are already tied-down)
Must sells/loan/bury under LC turf as follows:
Mannone, Squillaci, Chamakh
The ‘jury’s out’ list:
Everyone else!
Prof Yoda asks: What think you ‘Holics? Discuss can we?
Just wanted to say: please post more often cdoyle, that was fantastic stuff.
Ever the optimist, I still believe this squad is close, just three or four players away.
Lost in all the hyperbole has been the fact that we have, I believe, the third best def record in the prem. Better than Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Everton. Only two goals worse than City.
Chesney looks the part to me, Jack is showing increasing form and maturity, Sagna remains the best RB in the country, Etc. The foundations are there.
We are, however, a team that went into the midweek game playing a floundering winger at CF, an increasingly demoralised young central midfielder on the right wing and an out of sorts striker, possibly still carrying a knock, on the left wing. It is not a combination that screams goals.
We need to use the upcoming window to address weaknesses. Another centre forward is a must, and we must surely be looking at Huntelaar and (ideally) Llorente. I would also say we need a pacey winger who can actually swing a cross. And finally, some size for the centre of midfield, possibly at DM to give us better options to rest MA/release him forward.
I don’t want us to spend a fortune. I just want us to address the glaring holes in the squad. Moving on some of the dead weight would also be useful – it would be lovely to demonstrate that players can’t just squat in our squad on high wages long term, because that’s how it feels right now.
Finally, if any player isn’t sure they want to play for Arsenal, please sell them. And I include Theo in that. It cannot help the team to have wantaways in the first XI. Victoria Concordia Crescit.
COYG
Afternoon all
Excellent debates/posts above.
Nor Cal, AW has never won the League Cup, GG won it twice.
and;
…… but this year we would not have gotten out of the group stages of the CL if we were in any other group except possibly Manures group.
That my friend is pure speculation, there is no way, unless you live in a parralel universe, that you could know how that would have panned out. Case in point = Tuesdays result.
Well in Lars (ticket)
Well in Ollie.
304 Steve T, thats as firmly on the head as you could ever hit a nail.
325. TS
With your list agree, I do.
No Feo on there I see, I’m pretty non-plussed about his wole contract issue too. Either sign it or don’t. Meh if you do, meh if you don’t.
==
psed Pretty surprised about the reaction I got on the RvP statement (240), glad I’m not the only one. *Breathes huge sigh of relief.
TS,
I would put Ramsey on the jury’s out list. I know he is young and coming back from a Major injury but he has not proven to me that he is going to get there. I like him and want him to make it but I just don’t feel it yet. Also, Sagna would not be an absolute for me. Again, great player but getting older and I want fullbacks that can put in a decent cross. At his age he is not one that I would sign to a long term contract.
I would add Le Coq to my tie down list. Easy Wolfie.
G’day TS …
Your sell/loan (at someone else’s expense, hopefully)/bury list looks ok.
Jury’s out list would contain several more names for me, just not sure how many to limit it to after the last two weeks.
The essentials list would not include Ramsey (*waits for storm of bread rolls to be hurled across the bar room*). The jury is, unhelpfully,out on my “jury’s out” list.
Hope that’s all clear, then. π
Lars, Block next to me (91). Lucky chap. π
N7.
Stoke has the best defencive record in the PL at this moment (12 conceded) Then Citeh (14),then Arsenal (16). So indeed the third best defence in the league.
Agree with the rest, especially the players out of position stuff.
H2H,
How do you know what universe I live in? π
Yes it is speculation. We played the teams in our group and got out. However, looking at the other groups and taking into account our form the year it is difficult to see us getting out of several of the other group.
Sorry about the history gaff on the corporate cup, it didn’t seem right when I wrote it.
N7, looks like we have a similar wish list for signings. It really is that glaring. Lets hope.
Electronic American ducks? I wonder why we haven’t thought of that before now. They certainly do sound like easier targets anyway.
TS. Does that put Wilshere on the “jury’s out” list? I doubt it, but f so, I would certainly exchange Ramsey and Wilshere’s places. Ramsey just gives the ball away all the time.
Whoops. Sorry, TS, I missed Jack in your first position. Still I maintain my point about Ramsey.
NorCal.
Citeh are second in the PL and were unbeaten (up to last weekend) Yet failed to win a game in a group containing a team who’s best player is Ryan Babel.
Arsenal and Schalke both qualified yet are both seen to be in crisis, while Olympicas who have all but won their league already didn’t.
Form is subjective.
Trev, H2H, NorCal cheers for your thoughts. All good.
H2H – Re: Theo aka Fenton (@ArsenalGent) – He would be captured under my original captured by jury’s out / everyone else list. I agree that’s a dubious category in his case only because I believe he is already out the door and if you believe the BS he will be playing alongside his Dutch mate up in Manchester in the new year. Then they will have a skunk and an errant canine on thier payroll each banging in 30 goals a season. Boooooooooooooo.
Trev – Really glad we see eye-to-eye on Ramsey. I expected pelters for that.
However, NorCal, I fully understand why you see him as a ‘jury’s out’ player. He’s in a deep rut of poor form this season (again!). Is he being played out of position?
8ball – Cheers and see my prev post re: Ramsey. He needs a boost
*awaits a raft of choccie puns from Trev*
H2H,
I don’t know if your comment above is helping prove or disprove my point. π
I agree it’s speculation. My opinion and all the other disclaimers.
Cheers
TS,
Yes Aaron is in poor form and out of position in most games. But even when in the midfield he has played better but I would not say well. I guess it also depends on your definition if ” locking up long term”. I am willing to give Arron a few more years to see where he goes but not 5. Same with Sagna but that is based on his age. A 2 year extension to Sagna’s remaining year I think is fair. 4 more? Not for me.
Cheers
Trev, I hope to some day even be in the same block as you π
Tim @ 276 – I can absolutely assure you that we’re watching the “right” football; the American version is at a crossroads and probably won’t exist in this fashion for another 10 years, because the head injury situation is so extreme and seemingly intractable. It’s also soulless at the professional level, thanks to the almost obscene tolerance American sports fans have for commercialism. I realize that electronic advertising hoardings are a pain in the ass and have been known to suss out stray epileptics in the crowd, but that’s nothing compared to a sport that over the course of three hours will probably feature 1:45 of actual game time, with the rest turned over to Pfizer’s attempt to ameliorate America’s impotence epidemic.
NBN @ 320 – As you allude to, it’s exceedingly rare that a college player is prepared to start in the NFL right away, and the few who can are concentrated in a couple of positions, usually wide receiver, running back and sometimes quarterback. I can count on one hand the number of interior linemen that were able to make a real impact in the NFL right out of college. In those couple of years out of college, they not only get world-class training, but they also get to commit themselves entirely to the study of a single, complicated pursuit. The checkers/chess analogy between the college and professional games, with respect to game-planning, isn’t very far off.
Dart night tonight…
It’s gonna get messy. π
Enjoy your evening all.
Good luck, H2H!
cdoyle@341: I have always been surprised that the U.S. TV networks didn’t take to cricket. A break in play with time for a 60 second spot every two or three minutes seems tailor made for them.
TS: I thought we’d locked down all our exciting talent to long-term contracts a few of seasons back, including those that so many are now yammering to sell as dead woodβ¦.
Not sure Bac would be on my essentials list, if only because of age and we have the corporal coming along well. But, as he is a senior player, there would be a certain symbolism to keeping him at this point, though it should be on a couple of years extension at most. There was a time when over-30s got offered no more than one-year extensions, even the likes of Pires. Glad Ramsey is a keeper for you. He could still become the new Romford Pele that AW, I suspect, believes he can be. I would also add the Ox, the Coq and Frimpong to your must keep list. There are youngsters in the reserves like Gnarby, Eisfeld, Martinez, Angha, Miquel that we should be keeping, too, but that is for another discussion.
I’d switch Park and Fabianski from jury’s out to sell. I’d also put Arshavin on it, if only because he clearly is out of favor. Djourou should probably be heading that way, too. He is the new Squillaci in terms of playing time and there is a good crop of CB’s coming along behind. I’d lean more to keeping than selling Diaby and Rosicky. Also don’t we still own the GSTEL?
As for Theo. He is the sort of player that if he stays, we have to build a team round him to get the most out of him. Jury’s certainly out if we’d want to do that.
Nadir.. What Nadir?
Evening all. Arsecast done. Tomorrow hopefully there will be a presser on which to base a post.
Some really interesting stuff in the drinks. Thank you all. It could have been a lot worse under the circumstances.
Eveningolic
TS
You are very very generous with your ‘ Essentials ‘ list.
There is only one name on mine.
He is a clone of Billy Bremner and Johnny Giles.
The Ox is under consideration.
The rest for me, are 2nd and 3rd rate.
A complete clean out is the only solution.
Onwards and upwards,eventually.!!
Cheers
The Sweeper.
“He is a clone of Billy Bremner and Johnny Giles” ~ I love that image, fitting too.
The punfest is happening on the arses tonight.
Are we signing Nadir ?
Should have got Bevin while we had the chance ….. π
Can never get into tha Arses π
It’s very civillised right now, Trev.
Although I’m leaving to reach my bed.
G’night.
Trev, you would have been in your element there with the punfest.
I may be the only one to understand that post, baff, haha, nice one.
No point holic. The presser is only aimed at the players we are reliably informed.
π
NBN – If Americans didn’t invent the sport β or make up a story about inventing the sport that people cling to in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary β they’re not interested. I’ve come to conclude that, for most Yanks, sports are just a medium for atavism.
We invented English football. And then sold our ruling interests to Stoke on Trent. I have it on no authority that Washington trained his troops while playing a game very similar to the way Stoke currently play the game. Washington himself was the tall ugly bloke up top that the rest of the team hoofed it up to.
π
Are the drinks broken?
Ok then, let’s try this again
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY
http://images.football365.com/12/12/496×259/John-Terry_2873712.jpg
Wrong holiday Nonny. That’s Halloween and April fools day rolled into one.
Welcome back
Evening Nonny,
Hope you saw my @60.
Oh Nonny, Would have loved to see the holics’ expressions, when they clicked on your link, ha ha π
Nonny
That link has a virus…..Chlamydia I’d guess.
Nonny is back, Nonny is back, Hello, Hello π
Have we stopped beating around the bush yet?
clive@349: Things aren’t that bad, quite.
cdoyle@358: I have never considered pro sports to be an instance of American exceptionalism, but now you mention it, it seems self-apparent.
NorCal@359: so does Crouch have wooden teeth? I always thought Washington invented ice hockey so he could cross the Delaware. What he crossed it with, I have no idea, though.
bt8b: is that some Wolfie euphemism?
NBN. There seem to be two opinions about the origin of the phrase:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beat-around-the-bush.html
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=don't%20beat%20around%20the%20bush
We may need to get a ruling from Oxon on this one. I did see an important word misspelled in the second opinion, however. π
Another meaning of “Don’t beat about the bush” is what Gervinho failed to do in front of goal v. Bradford.
Evening all….
As we all know the people in charge do read our comments on a daily basis π
What single tactical/personnel change would you like to see us try in the next couple of games? I ask simply because I’ve seen so many great drinks in the past about tactics plus I think it might be very good month to see something fresh/make us less easy to outfox.
Podolski in the middle with Giroud in a 4-4-2?
We Americans are exceptional. (So is the NFL.)
But for us Yanks, the World would be speaking German. π
Just sayin’ like… (I’m kidding…somewhat)
BMBD
@behind the 8 ball
I think 4-4-2 will got a fair few votes, we simply need more goals and I can’t help thinking Podolski is in danger of drifting (further) into a rut wide left. He’s the best finisher on the team from what I can tell (WBA excluded)
Nonny, that’s been posted earlier, and everywhere (and it still makes me puke π )
Seeing as we’re probably going to still play with one striker…I’d like to see Cazorla moved out to the left and Rosicky as the forward midfielder.
@372 tactical change – all midfielders to lob a ball forward from time to time towards a forward or an open space, rather than close passing 100%
(I do not see the current system playing to strengths of Pod, Theo, Chammy and Giroud, in no particular order)
Heh, the hardly overplayed TGSTEL suffers injury :
http://www.francefootball.fr/#!/news/2012/12/14/091904_bendtner-out-deux-mois-et-demi.html
Oh well, when he returns in February he will be a rested LANS.
Morning holics π Tim great question. Cognac, Juventas do that frequently, I would love to see more of that from us. My suggestion is not a tactic. We need to start capitalizing on all our corners. And greater anticipation, when we’re in and around the box, would be lovely π
Tim @372,
I would like us occasionally, when right in front of goal to
” ‘it the f*cking fing !!! “
Bath, in ornithological terms, Bendtner will return as the
“great rested tit”. π
Trev wins again at 383 π
Travel update: think I might go for a train/bus combo.
The question remains: bus on the way out or bus on the way in?
Inclined to take the bus on the way back in, saves me waking up early on matchday.
Trev @ 382 π
Wenger – I am completely against netting
That’s why we don’t score more goals at the moment. Oh π
Heh @ Nonny’s link, mate what exactly did we do wrong to deserve such punishment?
Tim, i will definitely love to see Santi play from the flanks.
NBN & Clive – Thanks both for your comments.
NBN – Yes, I did say that quite a few on the essentials list were already tied down. Totally agree re: Park, TGSTEL and all other on loan. I was just viewing them as (more or less) gone already. Interesting what you say about Bac. Personally, I’d like to see him finish his career at The Arse but am not convinced that he will. I think many would agree with you re: Fabianski too.
Clive – Love the way you describe our midfield terrier as a cross between Bremner and Giles…. nasty!
My main point is that whilst we do need some form of clearout, I think that squad stability for our best players i.e. a couple of seasons of regularly playing alongside each other should cement key relationships and enable the team to be more successful. It’s the high rate of churn and constant re-buildig of squads that concerns me.
Cheers all.
What we also need is TS’ weekend comeback π Bring it on! π
on Abou Diaby’s injuryβ¦
Slow progress. I cannot give you any fixed date because we are a bit in no man’s land on that front. He is working. We are waiting for him to come back but he is not ready.
on him playing over Christmasβ¦
Over Christmas? Certainly not.
Pains me to say so, but shouldn’t he just do the decent thing and retire?
Sad to see the career of an extremely-talented player wasted like that, but there really is no hope.
Personally I gave up any hope at the start of the previous season, even if there was a brief illusion at the start of the present one…
Cheers Ollie, I bet I beat Diaby to that one π
Ollie, I agree re: Diaby. There comes a point when surely you have to realise that your body just can’t take the strain. At the same time it’s very easy to understand him, I mean just imagine knowing that you have the capacity to play at the highest level and be one of the best players (because he IS a really, really good player as he has proven more or less every time he has managed to string a couple of consecutive games together) but are being denied that by your own body – I can definitely see why you don’t want to just give up without trying everything you possibly can.
True Lars, he is only 26 after all, it’s painful.
Plays it out of defence off the opposing strikers arse…
*Boilks* it forward……..
(Afternoon all)
Looks up for Ollie……………
Crosses the ball…
HBoots it Hang)over the line
D’oh
That was supposed to read.
Boots it (hang)over the line.
The boilk be strong today, young padawans.
Was busy and didn’t expect such quick movement.
Lars is Ollie.
Well in H2H!
Blame the darts?
Great Hboots!
Cheers Ollie.
I can’t really blame the darts, but I have a sneaking suspision that the half downed barrel of lager may have something to do with it.
Ah well, we’re now top of the *league so I suppose it was worth it.
*Before anyone starts believing I’m some kind of darts god, it is the lowest local division filled with teams who are just in it as an excuse to drink. If you manage to hit the board you’re a superstar. π
H2H – what is the point of darts ? π
Gives us drunks the chance to throw sharp objects.
For the rest it’s just bull’.
Do you all have to wear 501s to play?
Heh. no, but, eeerm…. shit, that’s me done, where’s Trev the pun-dit when you need him?
Bad news for DLL Ltd (Lowlands Division);
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21149876/__Blowverbod_op_school__.html ( I urge you to translate it)
What’s this country coming to? They’ll be banning beer in primary schools next. π
I think netting at football stadiums should be considered but limited to the corner-flag area only. That way Gervinho would net at least 30 a season.
Heh Uncy Chas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2dXFpPl4r8
The curse of the Swans is nothing new for Arsène!
Of course I misread that: Monaco WON 2-1.
His accent is pretty much thge same, but his hair has improved some what.
http://www.arsenal.com/match-menu/173464/youth/arsenal-yth-v-blackburn-rovers?tab=report
Most of our U18s truly have crazy names.
Somewhat interesting from the Independent. I have to say he’s looked ropey at full back for them, so he got played out of position anyway.
| The Tottenham Hotspur defender Jan Vertonghen said yesterday that he turned down Arsenal because ArsΓ¨ne Wenger wanted to convert him into a midfielder. He said: “[Arsenal’s interest] was concrete, but they wanted me to be a controller in the midfield, an Emmanuel Petit-type. I’m not afraid of competition, but the overall picture of Spurs appealed to me more. |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Grab a beer and a sandwich first. It’s a long one…
Latest rumor: Lars, he of the big wallet, has decided to fund not only all of the Holics’ drinks but also to underwrite Arsenal’s transfer budget in the coming year. Our first purchases will be Man City’s first 17 in the squad. You heard it here first … π
Direct link to CITYTALK: A VILLAINS TALE
http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/12/citytalk-a-villains-tale/ β¦