Comfortably Numb
Feb 16th, 2013 by 'holic
“It’s all very Arsenal this. Neat and tidy around the box, dominant, but no goals.”
My antipodean commentator summed up the opening half very well. Just twice we worked Kean in the Blackburn goal, and both of those from corners. The only other incidents of note were a poor effort at a dive by Francis Coquelin, the BFG should be collecting a fine from him for that, and Gervinho missing the target when put clear one-on-one with the goalkeeper. The tie became a 45 minute affair, and all the more dangerous for that.
What followed I suspect most of you will have seen by now. For those who only listened on the radio I can tell you this was a match you have seen before. Opposition parked two rows of four and five in front of the goal, we played tippy-tappy and tried to find space in areas where it didn’t exist. Look at the stats and it will tell you we had twenty more shots than the visitors, and fourteen more corners. That is only to be expected against Championship opposition.
As against Brighton in the last round our starting eleven weren’t quite up to the task and we had to call up reinforcements from the bench in the shape of Jack Wilshere, Santi Cazorla, and Theo Walcott. Sadly before they had time to get into the game we fell behind to a rare Blackburn attack. It would be easy to allocate blame at an individual, but there was a collective lethargy in defending the breakout that cost us dear as Kazim-Richards stubbed effort bounced crazily in at the far post. If ever there was an indication that it wasn’t our day, that was it.
The triple substitution robbed us of our best player on the day. Tomas Rosicky looked lively and inventive all afternoon, and by the look of things was disappointed not to get the chance to finish what he had started. A frenzied finale brought with it near misses and growing frustration. At the final whistle that resulted in the inevitable chorus of boos. I know there are many here who are not happy when that happens, but I have to say it was perfectly understandable today.
When the game finished, a couple of hours ago now, I was inclined to the same dark thoughts that many rather hastily recorded on social media platforms. The immediate reaction is one of wondering how many more times do we have to put up with days like this. The answer, when you look back down the years, is it will happen again. For every heroic win there is a Walsall, a Peterborough, a York, a Wrexham. That is the nature of the beast.
So a tasty curry and a couple of pints later I have calmed down a little. By tomorrow I will be worrying more about the matches to come than this one. I cannot let that game pass though without wondering why, when we have money in the bank, we have a goalkeeper who is not under pressure for his place. I am wondering why, when we have money in the bank, we have a reserve team midfielder at right-back, and why, when we have money in the bank, do we have only one out and out centre forward? Broken record? Sure. But am I wrong?
Whilst understanding those who will consider today something of a freak result, I have to say there are three games coming up at the start of March which may swing hearts and minds. Losing a cup tie we should have won comfortably hurts. That will pale into insignificance if the season is lost with a couple of months to spare.
323 Responses to “Comfortably Numb”
Cheers Holic.
Gutted again. Time to Go forward.
A miserable day. If nothing else, you have made my mind up what to have for dinner.
Good health, squire.
Definite feh of a game. Well written, holic, why wasn’t Sagna on to start, and Diaby off not TR7?
Btw, great history pieces lately, loving the learning and our team.
Let’s rip the arrogant Bavarians a new one on Tuesday. Cheers to that.
Can’t add much to that one. I was very happy with the team selection. I was very happy with the substitutions. I was very disappointed by the goal. I was very disappointed to see us drop out of the competition I thought we’d win.
Curry, eh? Now there’s a warming thought.
As much as I agree we have needed a bigger and better squad since last summer, are we expected to have three right backs? Bit silly that critique Holic mate! Young Francis has played there many times when he came through the youth ranks. And if Carl hadn’t have got sent off last week, he would have started anyways.
I think Gervinhos erratic finishing and piss poor decision making show zero sign of improving. Had fairly high hopes for him, but he just hasn’t done it for us. He probably needs offloading, at a massive loss no doubt.
And hate saying this, but I think we are far better defensively when TV isn’t playing.
And having had time to think about the game, tonight really felt like Norwich away again. Except the starting 11 is quite different. Which also begs the question why we continue to perform like this at times, regardless of who starts. A collective lack of winning mentality, perhaps?
I kinda like how AW said at the post match conference that “we weren’t good enough to win the game”. Let’s hope we will be on Tuesday, and heaven knows how much we need Jack to be fit and at his best on Tuesday. Will I trust Gervinho to finish for us when the chips are down? Probably not, but when he plays I don’t have much choice. Prove me wrong and please score when we need it Gervais.
I hope the Ems will be loud and supportive on Tuesday, it is our last chance of a trophy this season.
What will the Wenger lovers say about the shambles of today then? Lets not have the entrusted line of “only Arsene can turn things around” please. Firstly having been there today, the apathy in the stadium was shocking, and secondly, well done Blackburn – it pays to have a shot at goal because anything can happen! They deserved to win because Arsenal could not be bothered to get out of 1st gear – AGAIN – at home. Their keeper must have had only 5 saves to make, that is embarressing and sums up Arsenal at home. We play the same way at home each time: only go into overdrive after half-time or after going 1-0 behind. Today it was the latter. I can take losing when the opposition is battered to a pulp but I dare say Blackburn have had many a tougher match away to fellow Championship teams, and that is the biggest indictment to bestow at Sir Wenger’s front door.
The calls for Wengers head, although knee jerky are understandable…. These results and performances are happening with more regularity and that’s a real concern…. Although I don’t get why some think David Moyes would do a better job? What has he done? And his teams have even more alarming fluctuations in performances.
Btm
Wenger must love supporters like you
Happy with the team
Happy with the subs
Wenger will be there for the next decade
I too thought the team picked was not only good enough, but contained players who needed to play and prove themselves worthy of a regular berth in the starting 11, not sure your comment makes any kind of sense bob?
Happy with the team selection? Really?
Season after season after season this manager does the same thing.
Season after season after season he learns nothing from his previous costly mistakes.
Wholesale changes made ensuring an eleven mostly made up of players not good enough for the first eleven throw another glorious opportunity down the swanney. Every February tells the same old jackanory.
That team selection was obviously going to ensure Arsenal struggled today, absolutely no creativity from midfield. If we need to rest Jack then Santi must play, without the pair of them there is no hope.
Granted noone can legislate for the paucity of performance that Diaby turned in today but if anyone is genuinely surprised or disappointed then they just haven’t been paying attention.
It never works for Arsenal playing wholesale Jekyll and Hyde teams like this, the only man left on the planet with faith in that line up is Wenger. I turned down a free ticket to the game today so convinced was I that we’d witness exactly this team put in another apallingly toothless display.
What preparation is that for Bayern? I would’ve far far preferred a tired yet jubilant and confident Arsenal take to the field in a few days time knowing they were in the QF’s of the FA cup instead of the jittery despondent heavy hearted players we’ll likely now see.
Witnessing Wenger give a series of his knowing smirks in the post match interview with an ITV reporter just made me wonder just what it was he found so funny? I’m at the stage now where I truly hope this is his last season, everything that made him great has long exited the building, what we’re left with is a stale caricature that knows not how to break this unfailing cycle of poorly motivated dysfunctional bargain bucket slop. Whatever the future brings the club sorely needs a change at the helm and I for one am counting down the days til it happens.
@Derrick: I think it was entirely a different game to Norwich, I do think that the boys eager and wanted to win, the spirit and motivation were there and I don’t think the collective lack of winning mentality was the problem today, it was the lack of creativity, penetration to split the defence and not to mention the lack of services to OG.
BobPat,
I would be honoured to think that I even register on Arsene Wenger’s radar. You pay me a huge compliment. Thank you.
Norris
Why not pick his strongest team and hopefully get a couple of goals get the crowd going and then take off key players
After all this is our best chance to win a TROPHY and if we are realistic we are never going to beat Bayern over two legs and we will struggle to get 4th
Oldham equalised against Everton in injury time to take the tie to replays…
What a pleasure to see so many new faces in the bar.
You lot think you’ve got problems: I’m in fucking Manchester this weekend, visiting mates of my wife, and they’re all fucking Utd fans.
Chin up, chest out, tell them all to cock off.
COYG
What? Everton couldn’t be Oldham? FIRE MOYES!
Now that’s over we can get down to the real business of the season.
Making Kronke more money.
Sometimes I wish I didn’t care so much.
Soon as I saw the line up I knew we’d fluff it up. The problem is that Wenger either a) doesn’t care b) was prepared to take the risk. Both attitudes are unacceptable.
Let’s be honest for once, there are plenty of managers around that could do a much better job than Wenger is doing at Arsenal – I mean, he’s not really doing anything is he?
It’s time to move on and bring someone new in. Wenger is old and stale and has no future in modern football.
Bobpat
It’s hardly a mad idea to try to rest some players four days before a CL game against the second best team in Europe, is it? Most managers would do the same, particularly against a championship side.
There are things you can slag Arsene for, but this seems a daft one. It’s hardly spending three seasons with Almunia in sticks.
Peach
What a load of cobblers.
Bob
In hindsight that’s a brilliant idea! However, if we started with our strongest 11 and suffered a defeat and/or serious injury you would be on here going on about why didn’t we rest em! That team was clearly good enough yet failed to put in the required shift, although they still had enough chances to win.
And, why the fuck can’t we beat the Germans and finish top 4? I think both are eminently doable….
@N7 why is it cobblers? Just saying so is a bit infantile. Do you want to debate or not?
Keep it civil fellas, or the smitey stick will be wielded.
Thanks.
No, N7 is right, that was a load of cobblers mate! π
Peach
It was a joke.
But by happy coincidence, you are also talking cobblers.
Wenger doesn’t care. Any evidence for that?
Plenty of other managers who would do a better job? Name them please. Ones that would actually come.
Old and stale? He’s not finished us outside the top four yet. Old, of course, but some of the best managers in the world are old.
To clarify: peach cobbler.
N7 Gooner
It was a risk that he didn’t need to take
It was a champion side but he has no more idea that any of us what team are going to turn up at the start
But surely Wenger must know that even with a fully rested team he will not get past Bayern
He is showing no respect to the fans and is now taking the piss
Thomas Helmer:”That should not be a problem. Arsenal always play well, but THEY ARE NEVER DANGEROUS. I would not be surprised if Bayern not only wins their home tie, but also the away game in London”.
This is who we are.
You are one of the last mohicians,numbnuts !!!
Someone has been at the firewater again…
Silly first comment! π
Well the evidence is in the team he picked. It was too weak, which shows a Laissez Faire attitude and sends out the wrong message.
Other managers? Ancelotti, Hiddink, Loew, Rijkaard, Pellegrini, Conte, Bielsa, Del Bosque, Laudrup, Moyes, Klopp. Many many others.
Top four is meaningless as Wenger has neither the squad or the tactical nouse to win the Champions League.
It’s more of a Hoxton Fin actually….
Bob
I agree that we’ll not get past Bayern.
But he does have to play our strongest team against them. There’d be an uproar if he didn’t.
He has to rest the likes of Jack and Theo at some point between now and the end of the season. If not today, then when?
What we had out on the pitch should have been strong enough to beat Blackburn.
I hate we lost but I’m glad it wasn’t the first team, cause it will certainly has bad impact on Tuesday. Didn’t have any problem with the team selection against Blackburn, we should’ve won it easily.
Let’s hit the bavarian hard on tuesday!
Ancelotti, Klopp, Laudrup and maybe Conte if he fancies working abroad yes, the others? No for different reasons. And why Moyes keeps getting name checked is frankly baffling. You may as well stick Tony Pulis name in there.
@ Norris 23,
I admire your optimism and I hope (being the operative word) we get past Bayern but we have lost to Bradford and now Blackburn when we really needed a win and a performance. We also lost at home to Schalke this season and I think the last time we played well against a top class side was at the Etihad.
I could he wrong mind.
Peach
Half those managers we’d not get (Klopp, Ancelotti). Several of the others are certainly not improvements (Bielsa?! Have you watched his mob this season?). Laudrup is simply the flavour of the month – this time three years ago you’d have called for Phil Brown. I doubt you’d even seen a Michael Laudrup side play until five months back.
Top four doesn’t matter – rrrrrright. Think you may be flying solo with that one.
Team selection today is evidence he doesn’t care? How does that work? Did he care last week and the week before, but today he just thought “ahhhh, balls to this, I’m starting Coquelin at right back”?
There are things you can criticise the manager for. Holic nails some of them above. Saying he doesn’t care is just daft.
Do you mean firewater as supplied by the soldier-coats
As seen in the westerns
@Norris
I’d give Moyes a chance because he has many of the ingredients that are missing from Wenger. He works on tight budget but is a very good tactician and his teams are always well organised and play with fight and spirit 95% of the time. They’re also an attacking side.
If you gave Moyes Arsenal’s budget and wage bill he’d stroll top 4, so why not just give him the Arsenal job? He’s hungry, ambitious and we’d be in safe hands – certainly no worse than we are now.
NB1 if I didn’t have optimism before a balls been kicked then there’d be no point being a supporter for me mate. I think our league form has improved and I am hoping that team, performance and eventual positive result is what we get. You are probably right about the last good performance being back in middle east lands, although we have done well in patches vs the chats and blue macs after going behind of course! π
@N7 Gooner
You took me too literally. Of course he cares, just doesn’t care enough. He’s not burning with fight, ambition and desire. The candles gone out.
Peach
Just for the sake of balance: you make some very fair points re: Moyes.
Well his contract is up in the summer, I’d be delighted to have him. He might be better, he might be worse, but right now it’s clear as day that nothing will change with Wenger in charge for as long as he remains at the club. He’s too set in his ways and tactically he’s very poor indeed.
I’m sorry peach, but where is the evidence of Moyes being tactically astute and Wenger isn’t? Cobblers indeed! His teams form fluctuates massively and are hardly defensively superior or more attack minded.
How about Owen Coyle? I hear he is out of work right now.
N7 I’d agree about the choice of Laudrup being a bit of a faddy one, although I followed him when he was at Getafe and thought he was worth a shout then, honest!
The saddest thing about a game we were all so desperate to win was the fact the loudest and most passionate the crowd could get was booing the boys at the end of the game. We are the quietest and most morbid fans around. Hey how do you get Arsenal fans pumped up and passionate? Ask them to discuss something online. Another pathetic day out. Another bitter loss. Another struggle.
@Norris
Because Moyes gets the basics right. Everton usually lose to the top sides, but otherwise are very consistent. They have bad seasons because they have to sell big players to break even all the time. Wenger sells big players but can use the money to replace them, Moyes doesnt’ always get that money to spend and Everton are not a big enough club to compete for Cazorla or Podolski.
Whether Moyes would be tactically astute enough in the Champions League is another matter, at that level it’s a different game altogether. Wenger is a disaster at that level.
Arsenal don’t need a lot of work doing, just get the basic defending right, team shape and work ethic. Moyes can sort that. Everton are primarily an attacking side not a defensive side. They’re a brave side, Arsenal are cowards.
In Arsene I trust.. !
Never have I trusted him more to prove the doom and gloom mongers right. They were right all along.
Again, where is the evidence of that? Moyes has also spent more than Wenger and suggesting Wenger has had money to spend is up for (much boring) debate too. I think he had money this summer though. I just don’t see him as any kind of improvement on what we have.
To be fair to Gervinho and Diaby, Giroud was the worst player on the pitch. Of both sides. Including D Bentley Esq.
He was pretty anonymous it has to be said.
Pretty much agree with the write up Holic. Not sure about the right back thing. Saying Sagna should have played is one thing. Saying that we should use the money we may have on another right back… Nah. And Coq did well, overall.
I am as disappointed as the next gooner. In fact, this feels like shit. But still, in the end, this sums it up better than anything else for me:
“For every heroic win there is a Walsall, a Peterborough, a York, a Wrexham. That is the nature of the beast.”
Sure, it happens to us more often than the real champions, but well, we are just, at this moment, not as good as they are. Simple as that. Changes are needed but ah, every supporter feels like this after a loss. This sport, and the same goes for every other, requires losers. Today it was us. There will be another win that feels absolutely fantastic. Perhaps in a few days time?
Drunk and in the phone btw. Messages will be sporadic.
Once again I look in the drinks and marvel of the influx of the newcomers spouting negativity all around them. Please, come visit also when things are looking bright and not only when its all gloom and doom and you can have your internet “FUCK EVERYTHING, WENGER OUT!” steam off.
Dont get me wrong .. I am as gutted by the result as many of you, but when I compare todays game to Bradford, I am not as furious with the team like I were back then. Blackburn showed nothing ..and apart from their goal they has been as negative side as I saw this season.
Teams performance was not ideal, yes…but should that TRs shot go in instead of out..we would be cruising. I have to say that I agree with the bafflement about the subs. Mr. Rosicky was our engine and he was about to score, Jack instead of Abou would be my pick and Santi instead of Ox with Feo coming in for Gerv.
All in all I agree with holic…as painful as the FA cup exit is ..much more important fixtures are waiting ahead and I for one still have gut feeling that we might pleasantly surprise against Bayern.
Diaby became too ponderous when we needed to quicken the pace and take the game up a level as the introduction of Theo, Jack & Santi suggested. Had Rosicky been in that position in the final 15 instead of Diaby, at least there would have been a consistent speed to our attempts to “crack the safe”. Diaby, and I like him by and large, is too slow of thought for unlocking the teams that sit deep in their own box for the final part of a game. He’s an open pastures thoroughbred, not an intricate confined spaces artist as was needed at the close.
And Ox was almost exclusively pants. I can’t believe how many of our well paid professional players find crossing a ball or even hitting in a set piece corner to be too difficult to achieve with accuracy. Bring back Eboue.
So over the years, Arsene’s and Arsenal’s targets have lowered.
Previously, I believe that Arsene honestly tried to fight for the Championship , and we used to fall midway and get 4th place. However, the last two seasons have seen him aim at just 4th and hence we are in the danger of losing out.
Not that Ill lose sleep over missing out on Champions League. In many ways, I might welcome it.
“The expectations are incredibly high at Arsenal”
But they’re not. They used to be. It used to be expected to challenge for the title, now the only expextation is to finish fourth.
on 16 Feb 2013 at 9:15 pm287Thundertinygooner
I wasnβt at the game and am in fear and trepidation of what might happen on Tuesday. At least the team couldnβt have any more motivation to put it all in but Bayern are a seriously good team who may be on the level of Real and even Barcelona. But Arsenal are my team. Iβve supported them at much darker times than this and still been bursting with pride to be a Gooner. There will be better times but we have been privileged to have many more great moments than the average fan. So on Tuesday they will have my unstinting support, no player however off- form will be booed while he wears that red shirt and I will pray for a miracle and as the match approaches I will convince myself it is possible.
That is my commitment to Arsenal. It does not stop me declaring that I donβt see Wenger leading us to any more glories. I am immeasurably glad he has been our manager but I think he is a spent force.
I donβt think the two sentiments I have expressed are contradictory. I love this club but I donβt think Wenger is the right person to lead it anymore. I hope if there is a parting it is dignified and recognises his enormous contribution to our club. It would be so sad if his reign ends in bitterness and acrimony.
Performances and results like this one happen far too often for comfort. If it happened once or twice a season, you could put it down to a bad day at the office, but far too often does this team fail to really put the effort in, or play “with the handbrake on” and that’s down to the manager.
They are not motivated, complacent, play too often well within themselves and they know they won’t get dropped, they know they are too well paid to be sold (see the likes of Bendtner). It is football from the comfort zone created by parsimony in the transfer market and a wage structure that rewards mediocrity.
Time for a change.
Sagna
bfg
Wilshere
Santi
Walcott
Podolski
All will start against Bayern and we’ll see an exciting game. Wenger was right to rest them but sadly it shows our squad is nowhere near deep enough or good enough which we all knew already and is inexcusable.
Overall though I must say the players showed great quality, spirit and mental strength.
Despite our lacklustre performance, Blackburn was shite tonight. And the only logical conclusion is that if piss-poor Blackburn can beat us tonight with one shot on goal, it is possible that we can also beat Bayern on Tuesday night.
The football is round — anything can happen in 90 minutes. Let’s hope we’ve used up all our bad luck and self-pity tonight.
Over the top reactionary nonsense…. And that’s just from me….
“…the players showed great quality, spirit and mental strength.”
Love this one. Wonder how the game will end without all that.
You have my vote for man of the year, laddie.
I think Bayern are a better team then Real Madrid. In fact I dont rate the Spanish team highly at all…. That said, we can stuff the Bavarians… I rate our first 11, it’s just a shame the squad isn’t strong enough.
We desperately need a DM. Strootman maybe. Sum1 who makes dynamic decisions. Arteta does not suit that role. He has a boring way of controlling play which does not help the attackers. Diaby’s got less speed than a snail. Podolski is our biggest threat. He should be starting and playing the whole 90 minutes for us.
ttg@60: Good to read your posting, and well said.
I disagree with you about whether or not Wenger will lead us to more glories. I didn’t see the match either, but frankly, I don’t know what more he could have done.
I suspect, however, that your point is rather broader and applies to Wenger’s decision-making over a longer period. Well, I don’t think he should have done much differently over the last, say, ten years. I know it’s unfashionable, but I believe his vision in backing the new stadium was right. I’m sure he realised that finding the money for a massive building project was going to make bringing in new players massively more difficult.
I think Wenger believed that Fabregas would stay in 2011, and I think he may have believed van Persie would stay last summer. He was mistaken if he believed either. That doesn’t make him delusional or evil or senile, it just makes him wrong.
I don’t even buy the “Wenger is pig-headed and arrogant and never learns” line – a line you haven’t peddled above, and one you may never have espoused, but a theory that I often see propounded. In particular, only the year after he was disappointed in his hopes of Fabregas’s loyalty he made sure that he brought in two players who might replace van Persie if he proved disloyal too.
The only remaining criticism of Wenger is his failure to “spend some f*cking money”. Well, it won’t surprise you to hear that I discount that one too. I simply don’t believe there is, or more strictly, there was any money until the last couple of summers. I read that the board said the Wenger had Β£x million to spend if he wanted, but I simply don’t believe it. If players had been available that he thought would improve the squad, for prices that the club could afford, I think he would have brought them in. Why wouldn’t he?
The alternative theory, briefly, is that he’s delusional. Unfortunately, if the manager were delusional or otherwise incompetent, then you’d expect the board to get rid of him, so in order make the “Wenger is incompetent and/or delusional’ theory wash, you have also to buy into the “The board is incompetent/delusional/corrupt” theory.
There is, a principle, I think of philosophy, called “Occam’s razor” which states that when you have two explanations, the simpler one is more likely to be true. Applying this to the possible explanations of Arsenal’s failure to buy shed loads of talented new players over the past few years I favour the theory that there wasn’t any money around and that the club and/or manager lied if and when they said there was.
So, the message from this corner of goonerdom is to stick with what we’ve got. I’m so unfashionable that in Arsène, I still trust.
Bring on Bayern.
COYG
Oh dear, ‘holic – they’re out in force this evening huh? The denizens of Mordor, where all is black and ‘orrible.
At least there was a result and we don’t have replay to gum up the works.
I’ve decided not to watch matches where I know the opposition are going to park the bus(es). It’s just no fun anymore. Totally destructive of the intention and spirit of the game. And I can’t bear to listen to commentators who tell me that “you have to admire X’s organisation.”
No I fucking don’t.
I just wish one of them would have the courage to say clearly how this negative approach stifles all joy and beauty with the game. Just because Chelsea won the European Cup playing that way doesn’t make it OK.
What Oxon said – every word of it.
When Rosicky hit the bar, I knew it was not going to be our day. The nature of Blackburn’s goal just confirmed it, scuffed bouncer in off a post. But then the game should have been won by half time, and Jack, Santi and Theo could have had a run out in the last 10 as a loosener for Tuesday, not have to charge in like the 7th Cavalry (albeit not) coming to the rescue. Hard to criticize the team selection. The starting XI were good enough to win. Should have won. Feel sad rather than gutted.
Oxon
That was an excellent post…. I really wish I had as much faith in the boss. It’s slowly ebbed away a little, probably after the wretched relegation form after the Carling Cup final defeat and the proceeding summer transfer shenanigans and subsequent relegation form Mk 2 at the start of the following season.
However, I do believe, like you, that there hasn’t been money available to the manager till very recently and there have also been many extenuating circumstances, not least the greed and selfishness of several players and their lovely advisers….
I hope you’re right.
Norris@72, I hope I’m right too. π
That’s the big problem with being a footie fan; there’s nothing you can do but hope that things will turn out ok in the end.
To be honest, if I were completely wrong and things worked out ok, I could live with that too.
Oxon @ 68 — Despite agreeing with the broader sentiment and ‘philosophy’ underpinning your observations, and despite being an ardent Wenger fan, I must say that there is no reason why we cannot and shouldn’t criticize our manager. I still trust him to move the club forward but I think he needs to adapt and evolve a bit more. I agree with you that he doesn’t get as much credit for the various self-corrections he has done in the last 5-6 years (two strikers anticipating RVP’s leave was a good example), but there is lack of tactical malleability that has caught on with him, especially in terms of substitutions and changing the shape of a struggling game midway.
The mantra of always trusting the players to find a solution on the pitch no longer works as much as we need to because we no longer have that many game changers, and football, especially English football, has evolved significantly in term of tactical awareness and discipline. It is one thing to say “let us play two banks of four against Arsenal and hit them on counter” and another thing to execute that game plan with tactical discipline and more and more teams are managing to pull it off. And then there are times when the opposition decides “Let us press Arsenal non-stop from the beginning, force them to commit mistakes and we have enough quality to make those count”, and a few unfancied teams have pulled that off against us as well.
In all of these occurrences you will see a common thread that Arsenal hadn’t been able to change the shape or strategy to respond, and the substitutions were off.
For instance, and by now this sounds like a broken record I know, taking off TR7 and not Diaby was absolutely inexplicable unless you take into account the possibility that that is precisely what Arsene had in his mind at the beginning of the match and he did that no matter what.
Anyway, I think we have a very good team, if somewhat thin on the bench strength, but there are times when we underperform both at a footballing level as well tactical/strategic level and the former is often the consequence of the latter.
Excellent post Oxon.
Agree with all of that.
The aspect of the team which it doesn’t really address is the mental one.
I wrote a bit about it in the last drinks which I won’t repeat here, but the squad has lost it’s winning mentality to the extent now,that the team freezes every time it is in a position of potential strength.
It has been happening since the Invincibles’ form disintegrated after one dodgy defeat, got worse after the 2008 collapse, and now seems to be an established state of mind.
Caring too much, apathy, arrogance, loss of confidence, fear of losing – who knows ?
Someone needs to find out though – someone with the skills to fix it.
I missed Ody π
By and large reasonable debate well expressed all. Thanks for that. Would have been easy to degenerate into everybody shouting each other down.
Evening. Holic, there are so few times I have ever REALLY disagreed with anything you said. Truly. But I can’t in good conscience let anyone here, even for one millisecond believe booing OUR TEAM, ‘understandable’ π Yes, it’s the score that matters 0-1, yeah, I get that. We’re out of the FA CUP. That hurts, big time. And we’re ALL just sick over it. As devastated as we are, I just know our Lads are hurting and probably bewildered, too. They know where they could have been more clinical, but honest to goodness they must feel like they gave it their all. That’s the way I saw it. It’s always darkest before dawn, Gents…lets be their morning sunshine, please π BTW Holic, I know you would never boo them. I’m just letting off some steam π
Rosicky’s thumping drive and Kazim-Richards’ mishit just about summed it up for me. That and another 26 goal attempts for zero result.
I have no problem with the starting XI, but not happy with AW waiting 70 minutes before changing it.
I also sympathise with Rosicky who, as ‘holic said, was our best on the day. He gets minimal game time, looked the only player likely to create anything, and gets hauled off first. Makes little sense to me, compared with Gervinho and Chamberlain who should never have started the second half, imo.
I thought Coquelin performed well at RB – aside from the theatrical dive (nil point from this judge!)
But these things happen, and we need to get over it (again). And beating BM on Tuesday wouldn’t surprise me in the least!
Oskar
I think this guy’s got it about right:
Arsenal 0-1 Blackburn | We. Keep. Making. The. Same. Mistakes.
http://www.oohtobeagooner.com/arsenal-0-1-blackburn-we-keep-making-the-same-mistakes
Nothing more to add really , it just seems like groundhog day again.
I think there’s a distinct lack of perspective every time Arsenal lose a game, from the media to the fans…. It’s like the team aren’t allowed to lose a game whatever the reason or circumstances. Today’s defeat is a prime case in point.
Cup upsets happen, Leeds, West Ham and Palace have all beaten Man U in recent times at old Trafford, yet they get brushed off, whereas with us it’s proof of declining quality etc…. Obviously it is like this due to the angst and anxiety around the lack of a trophy and the sooner it happens then there’s more likelihood we can get back to just suffering the loss of a game of football instead of the cataclysmic catastrophes we inevitably endure! π
So, the big eared shiny pot it is then….
I could not watch the match since i was at work (Canadian) but reading his post match transcript he was annoyed and angry and at that moment a thought crossed my mind. These players will cost Arsene his legacy and ultimately his job.i love Wenger for what he has done for the club but things are not in his favour. Of course the media’s hatered towards him doez not help. (Atleast thats my humble opinion as an outsider living at different place). I Also feel that no ones knows really what goes inside the football club whether its the fans or the pundits ( money is there to spend etc).
A nice, quick, measured response, ‘holic; hope you liked your curry.
Watched the entire match and have these observations:
1) Really had no objections to the team selection; it’s right to rest Wilshere, Santi, Theo against this side, use them only if necessary, let others have a needed run out. They should be able to take out Blackburn at home.
2) BUT, why sub all three simultaneously when it was clear earlier that some players were off the boil (OG; Ox; Diaby) and that Gervinho was disappearing in the second half? Especially since, as the match wore on, the all too frequently seen at the Emirates opposition rope-a-dope strategy was working, with Arsenal falling into the tippy-tappy trap? What was needed was upping the tempo and have players moving with off the ball runs to get behind the defense. Put on Theo at 55 for Gervinho (or even for OG) with orders to run at the defense. Then Wilshere on for Diaby at 65 to really get moving, and if needed, put Santi on for Ox later if the defense needed unlocking.
3) Does anybody talk to Diaby and say, “Abou, we need the direct, long-striding, can’t knock him off the ball Diaby, not the tentative, slow-thinking, blow on him and he falls over Diaby!”
4) Does anyone talk to the side and say, “Hey look, the tippy-tap way you’re playing is exactly how THEY want you to play. PICK UP THE PACE!!!”
5) Elsewhere there are laments about the opposition keeper having an “Emirates blinder” again. Not so; he had one tough save to make, on Diaby’s header from a corner in the first half. Every one of the other saves were shots right at him. Arsenal to the extremes — shots are either right at the keeper, or off target (or unlucky, on Rosicky’s — Thomas was MOTM by far).
Where was Paul Robinson when you needed him?
6) Actually, to one of your criticisms, ‘holic, maybe we did need Paul Robinson. The Arsenal keeper faced one whole entire threat in the match….and failed.
Ah well, push on.
I don’t blame the players one bit, this is how they are taught to go out and win games with no preparation on the opposing team or lack of a plan b when the game is against us.
It’s a bit like turning up for a GCSE English lit exam without studying the symbolism, characters or plot, and hoping you’re sheer passion to construct meaningful sentences will get you a C.
It’s worrying how far we have slipped behind from a tactical perspective, the players are allowed to make themselves look like fools. They need guidance and lessons and unfortunately they’re having to sink or swim by their own performances.
Only plus point for me was Rosicky, why he got substituted is beyond me, by far our best player. When Carzorla came on we had only had one attacking left sided player and that was Monreal, poor Wilshire was having to cover that position because santi wanted to drift inside.
Sooo disappointing, Wenger needs to take a long hard look in the mirror
Arsenal are not getting any better over the last eight seasons, just worse, I cannot for the life of me comprehend why anyone thinks Wenger deserves any more time.
2004-2005 Arsenal lost just five games in the league and as everyone knows we won the FA cup, lost to Man Utd in the Carling Cup at the quarters stage, and then lost to Bayern in the first knockout round of the CL.
2005-2006 Arsenal lost eleven games in the league, out in the fourth round of the FA cup, lost to Wigan in the Carling Cup at the semis and lost with honour against Barcelona in the CL final.
2006-2007 Arsenal lose less games at just eight but still end up with a worse point total than the previous season, exiting the FA cup in the fifth round and the Carling cup lost to Chelski, but a shock exit in the first knockout round of the CL ended a miserable campaign.
2007-2008 Saw a false dawn as Arsenal lost just three games, deja vu however as we again got eliminated in the fifth round of the FA cup and the semis of the Carling cup to THEM, and eliminated by Liverpool in the quarters of the CL league.
2008-2009 Arsenal lost a modest six games this year in the league, and made it to the semis in the FA cup, and in the fifth round to Burnley in the Carling Cup, Man Utd saw us off in the semis of the CL
2009-2010 Arsenal went on to lose nine games in the league, this time the fourth round was as far as the FA cup adventure went, one step further as the fifth round saw us leave the Carling cup, Barcelona destroyed us over two legs in the quarters of the CL.
2010-2011 Despite Arsenal losing only eight games this year the points total was again lower than in the previous year, and a sixth round exit in the FA cup, Ipswich saw us off in the semis of the Carling cup, but the last sixteen was as far as the CL was letting us go as somehow we ended up with Barcelona again.
2011-2012 Arsenal lost ten games in the league, and the fifth round again saw Arsenal leave the FA cup, the fifth round (again) saw us exit the Carling cup, but once again the last sixteen was where it all ended again…..least it was not Barcelona…again.
2012-2013 with only twenty six games played, Arsenal have already lost six games, crashed out of both domestic competitions and face a daunting tie against the mighty germans in the CL
Anybody really thinking things will get better?
Holic this comment of yours summed it up – ‘I cannot let that game pass though without wondering why, when we have money in the bank, we have a goalkeeper who is not under pressure for his place. I am wondering why, when we have money in the bank, we have a reserve team midfielder at right-back, and why, when we have money in the bank, do we have only one out and out centre forward?’
I was at the game today – true attendance was probably no more than 50,000 – huge swathes of empty seats – particularly in the posh areas.
As an oldie the Cup matters for me but the current management obviously doesn’t give a toss about it.
Gervinho and Diaby have no place anywher near the first team – Gervinho is just fucking useless, Diaby slows every move down , dwells on the ball, can’t pass forward and no longer has the ability to even take the ball past Championship defenders.
The Pole had one routine save to make in the whole match and made a complete pig’s breakfast of it – he really needs some serious competition.
Wenger has set new records this season with the Cup defeats by lower league Bradford and Blackburn – and we are firmly on course to not make the top 4.
Still let’s be positive it has to get worse before it can get better – at some stage something will prompt Wenger’s long overdue removal.
I wouldn’t bother if I were him…. It’s full of over the top sensationalist shit from simpletons like Andy fucking Dunn…
Depressed Gooners
I think suicide is the only viable solution.
Go on go on go on….
After a really really crap week a trip to the Grove was meant to be my respite. Unfortunately it was anything but. The mood and atmosphere form the off was lacklustre. The game had the feel of a testimonial about it. The game started as if it was struggling to get put of first gear and never really kicked on.
For all that the stats show we never really made their keeper work. I have not seen any television replays yet but I do not remember one save that that you would not have expected him to make. We just were not clinical enough. Our attacks were slow and laboured. All too often we tried to waltz through the middle of the pitch for it to falter. Then, when we were up against it we hit aimless balls into the middle hoping that Giroud will get on the end of it by beating the six defenders around him. For me, in the last 10 minutes when we really needed something special we looked a tad clueless. A rudderless ship just hoping that something would come off.
The boos at the end are perfectly understandable. I will never boo but I will exercise my right to express my opinion. Football brings out a mixture of emotions. Booing is one of them. You do not have to agree with it but trust me, if you were there today then you would have found it completely understandable.
Very few plus points for me. AOC looked massively off the pace. Gerv might have given himself far more of a chance had he swapped his ice skates for a pair of football boots. I agree with others that TR7 was the best player on the park. I have no idea why he was taken off. I will also never understand why we made 3 changes at the same time. Surely that is going to cause an unnecessary disruption?
At the final whistle the rush for the exit by many was as predictable as the chorus of boos. However, the exit was pedestrian when compared to the speed of our beloved heroes as they headed for the showers. Only Jack and Theo seemed to understand what had happened and had the decency to acknowledge those who had remained. It was also pleasing to see that many stated to applaud our opponents in a display of sportsmanship.
In relation to the tactics displayed by Blackburn I donβt buy those that moan about teams parking the bus. Honestly, what did you expect then to do? They are a team that we have regularly stuck 5 or 6 passed when they were a Premier League side. I find it truly bizarre that some subsequently make a conscience decision not to watch and support team because of opposition tactics.
In my opinion there was nothing wrong with the team selection. It is not that long a ago that Diaby was our saviour. Now he should not have started. 10 out of the starting 11 were full Internationals. The odd one out was one of our better players. That side should have had more than enough quality to beat a struggling Blackburn side.
Very good write up holic. Yet again the question of squad depth and strength raises its head. I am always amazed when people come on here and still genuinely believe that we do not have money to invest. Continued profits made each season in the transfer window, record profits announced by the board. If we do not have money to spend then I really want to know where it is all going. Brand Arsenal will not look so attractive to these lucrative foreign investors if we continue to have results like this.
So we move on the Bayern on Tuesday evening. They must be terrified after watching that. We are owed a performance off of the back of that. I just hope we can find all that was missing today.
Ollie, enjoyed your company today.
Oxon
You make a very constructive defence of Wenger without any rancour and have tried to analyse the sort of things the fans are saying on the more histrionic blogs.
I’m not saying those things either . Wenger is a hugely bright and dedicated man whose stubbornness has served us well when it has proved to be resolution that many other managers lack.
My criticisms are that he can’t reinvent himself to keep ahead of the game as football has changed. His scouting network is nowhere near as good as it once was,his fitness and conditioning ideas which were completely revolutionary are standard practice and the performances of the side in most of the first halves we have seen have suggested that he has lost a degree of motivational power. Tactically I think he is a little naive but over the years he has employed such good players so offensively it has not been the problem it is now.
‘Holic points out in the main piece here a number of things which he and many others have been saying for some time.I have too-
The lack of a coherent plan to challenge Szczesny and to provide an able deputy for him. The need for a much more abrasive midfielder to protect the back four and break play up. The need for a better range of strikers. My criticisms of Giroud which were heavily attacked last week need to be seen over a period of time. He is a work in progress but I don’t think the destination is where we need to go and we certainly need an alternative with greater mobility. I think he is a slightly better than average striker who might become quite a good one. We need a top- class finisher one of the top 10 in Europe. He is not yet in the top 50.
Above anything else I think Wenger can’t lift or challenge the players like he used to and I detect in his press conferences some artful tactics to ward off criticism. He said before the game that we prepared for this like a Cup Final.Do you go into a Cup Final leaving out six of your best players? And if they are prepared for a Cup Final don’t they come out of the blocks with more sting than we apparently showed? Winning today would have created a buzz around the club for Tuesday. Tuesday will be an immensely difficult game and I doubt that Wenger can raise us iso that we go nto it with the right attitude.
Our only focus now must be on 4th place which in reality it has been all season.
Norris at 87. So do you think we are getting better then? Your comment here is a tad pathetic in my opinion. I would love to know why you think we are improving because clearly I am missing something.
Evening All
A lovely day for football, an enjoyable walk from King’s X, a swift pint at the pub and Gooner Kevin and I had high hopes as we took our seats.
The first half looked like a training game. We must have had 80% possession, players strolling around passing across the park with no one, other than the Le Coq ,prepared to drive forward with the ball. We had I believe 11 corners in the first half, none of which were made to count, a constant failing of this side.
There was expectation that our play would liven up in the second half but it was more of the same. Where was the Diaby who strolled majestically across the pitches of Anfield and City, driving this side forward? Arteta was guilty of too many cross field balls and it was left to TR7 to provide the threat going forward. I am afraid the 2 wide front men were both ineffective , which left OG isolated. He didn’t have a good game as a result.
I don’t blame AW resting players for Tuesday. Those who started the tie were ,on paper, more than capable of winning the game but there was a total lack of passion in our play. This was the FA Cup for heaven’s sake!
What I did find perplexing was the very late changes and the fact that he subbed TR7 when Diaby should had his marching orders. Personally I would have made the changes at the interval. We needed to take the game by the scruff of the neck ,with the energy of LJW, Feo and Podolski, at the beginning of the second half.
My friend Szczesny didn’t exactly cover himself in glory with his parry which lead to their lucky goal but it was our failure to take our chances at the other end which lost us the game.
So on to Tuesday night and it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if we put in a great display and took a lead to Munich.Our season tells us anything is possible!
I’m not a happy bunny but I’ve seen it all before, going back to 65 and the Peterborough debacle. See you all on Tuesday.
As always COYRs
Steve T
Pathetic? You’re a barrel of laughs as well. Hope there’s room in depressed Gooners hot bath and a spare razor blade for you too.
It was a joke ffs, get a grip.
Improving? When have I said that? I didn’t but you feel compelled to start a fight on a blog. Wow! I’m impressed….
Spot on Oxon. Really well said.
And, on further reading, several other great posts from the likes of delia, Steve T and TTG.
Lots of good points being made.
Norris. I was just somewhat surprised that you dismissed the comment at 84 the way you did. For me it is quite simple. We have been in gradual decline for years now. Some see it. Some bury their heads in the sand.
I agree with what Oxon said , every word of it .
The game next tuesday is much more important , much more prestigious , the all world is watching .
The game next weekend is much more important , Arsenal must finish top four .
Wenger has made the right decision on the FA game to field a weaker side . Who is watching this game ? the englishman , not the all world .
Decline? We have finished in roughly the same place every year despite other teams pumping huge amounts into their playing staff etc etc…. I would say if you must insist on an over simplification of events then stagnation is probably a more accurate word to use…. Accusing people burying their heads in the sand because they dont share your opinion IS pathetic.
That’s an interesting take Montreal Gooners… If we had to lose one of the 3 home games we have this week, then today’s one would be it for me too… Even though we might have had a good chance to win a cup.
Norris. We will agree to differ. If you are happy with the way it is all going then I am happy for you. I think we are a long way short of what we could and should be.
Again, you keep insisting on putting words in my mouth to suit yourargument. Pathetic.
Succint,as usual ‘holic. Team selection always debatable after an unexpected loss. I think it is wholly acceptable to expect a mostly second string Arsenal team to dispatch the likes of Blackburn. That it never really looked like transpiring is a tad worrying of course. Sure we had a lot of the ball, and were unlucky on a number of occasions, but Blackburn played like so many Prem teams at the Em’s – soak it up, and score on the breakaway. One point:Some contributors to this fine think tank are most keen to mock those of us they see as in the “Spend some feckin’ money camp”, to the point of belittling or even ridiculing that point of view. I would respectfully point out that any football club has only two methods of aquireing talented players : 1;”Grow” your own through youth/academy programs, or 2; buy them.
The only genuine world class player “grown’ by AFC is currently Jack Wilshire. Sure, we have a few others (Gibbs, for example) who appear to be home grown but who were in fact lifted from other clubs academies. The lions share of the first team is ‘bought”. Its not a sin, or a sign of weakness to do so,merely the way Pro football clubs operate. By mocking those of us who feel that the wealth of AFC is not being put to the best use, those on the other side of the fence are denying a basic reality of the nature of business, at least in the world of football.
BTM’s recent excellent piece on the Arsenal brand alluded to the fact that as a brand we lag far behind the likes of Manchester United. Thier brand is built on continued success on the field. They spend the money and reap the rewards (as witness thier purchase of the get-out-of-jail card that is RVP).
Having said all of that, I see no reason that the rollercoaster ride that is being an Arsenal fan wont continue with an epic victory over Munich!
Grow up Norris. If you want to debate it we can. Your comment at 87 suggested that you were in disagreement. The fact that you dismissed it out of hand I found a tad strange to say the least. Your comments suggested to me at least that you were someone that was happy with the way the club was heading.
It was not arguement, just my opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. I am not bothered in the slightest if you or anyone for that matter agrees with it. That is the beauty of this fine establishment.
Montreal Gooner at 96 – “who is watching the FA cup?The Englishman, not the world”
Wrong buddy — I assume you watched it in Montreal. I watched it here in NZ. It was shown live in Australia and most South American Countries. As well as Japan and a host of other nations. The world IS watching! And our “brand “takes another hit!
Fuck sake, you really like to keep a pointless argument going don’t you?
You assumed steve, incorrectly as it happens. If you bothered to read my other posts instead of acting like a school prefect you’d have an inkling about my feelings about The Squad etc…. I never dismissed anyone’s opinion, I just made a sick (and shit) joke…
I am really sorry I ain’t in my professional mourners garb black scarf and hand wringing and wailing like a banshee….
Well i’ve had quite a few pints more than I normally have (hic) and my take on todays events is still the same…
Fucking Pathetic (hic)
Steve T
I don’t know what difference you think it will make to the team morale whether or not I chose to sit here several hundred miles away and watch/support them. I don’t find my decision bizarre at all. I want to watch and enjoy. Games like those against Stoke, Blackburn, Bolton and all the other negative, anti-football teams give me no watching enjoyment whatsoever. So in future I will choose to do something else.
You ask what else they could be expected to do. Well, how about what Swansea, Wigan, Reading, Southampton and others do – play the game in a positive spirit.
Any Arsenal fan who stayed behind today to applaud Blackburn needs their head examined.
Dkgooner,
In all sports you will find examples of differing ways to approach winning a game. Tactics are part of the game. We get has slowly recognised this be has stopped criticising teams for executing a Game plan that differs from his philosophy on how the game should be played.
Chelsea could be described as one of the worse teams ever to win the champs lge or tactical geniuses that had a slice of luck along the way. If a teams tactic is to park the bus and play on the counter then our manager is charged with finding a way round that.
Manure parked the bus in Madrid and centred their game around scoring from set pieces or the occasional counter attack. No different to Stoke or Blackburn really. I’m sure this was considered the game of the season and the one the world wanted to see. Manure were praised for a professional away performance and have arguably put themselves in a decent position to get to the quarter finals. So the question is, do the ends justify the means. Ofcourse they do if it’s your team employing them and executing it successfully. Just ask a Blackburn, Manc or
Chavski fan.
Oxon,
I’m baffled. You blame the board for lying and bot providing the manager with funds but this is based on what? We have an audited set of accounts published every year open to scrutiny. Unless you are suggesting that the club and auditor are engaging in fraud by publishing cooked books your argument doesn’t stand up.
As for the manager not buying players we know we need, you’ve been taken to task on this before. Strikers have not been bought when the manager has said half way through a season we need to get a striker in Jan. At the end of seasons he’s identified defence weaknesses as having cost us titles yet did not address them during the summer. For how long did we have to suffer Almunia in goal for Dennis sake? Then Fabianski? Now Scz who clearly is raw and needs to be assisted by someone of real quality. I’m pretty sure there was a French keeper that recently was available we turned our noses up at. Genuine world class. He apparently plays somewhere in London, but alas not at our fantastic stadium.
I’m not a fan of the board but to suggest they commit accounting fraud just so that we don’t have to face the hard truth is silly.
The truth is the spine of our team is weak. Jack is promising but it’s asking too much for him to be our everything already. Any team that has a spine as weak as ours will always be found wanting. That’s down to the manager and his signings. He has to take responsibility for that and the board have to take responsibility for being satisfied with the coffers swelling but not giving the fans a team that can compete.
Oxon @ 68. Nicely said. Some quality commentary tonight folks. Understandable emotion too.
A world class GK, a world class CB, a world class midfielder, and a world class striker. If not world class then bloody as close to world clad as you can get/afford. Either that or get a manager that hates losing like he hates breathing. Purple nose is 12 Points clear with only two of the world class positions filled: Vidic and Van Pussy.
When we were at our peak we filled every single one of those positions. Jens, Sol, Patrick, God/Thierry = Strong spine = Winners = trophies.
More than gutted. But I do not blame Woj for the goal, it was a hard shot to catch.
I don’t really have anything to say. I hoped AW will go out on a high, I am now certain he will leave at the end of the season and this season is anything but a high.
Why oh why didn’t we get rid of Gervinho during the transfer window? Friggin’ useless and a hindrance. He never looks to pass the ball, slows the play down and stuffs up and effort on goal. Sell him in the summer for a bargain basement price if you can get a buyer and cut our losses. Put a few quid in the kitty for Messi.
Blackburn never really looked like attacking. We weren’t creating enough chances. Quite why we didn’t switch it up with playing two up front is beyond me. Poldi lining up with Giroud as CF, perhaps? Two strikers worked against Reading… And at least Giroud won’t be the only one trying to meet crosses against six defenders. I’m really quite sick of our 4-3-3 formation when we’re playing against park buses. At least Barca midfielders always try to penetrate, commit defenders and provide incisiveness. Ours look happy passing sideways and showing off 80% possession like it’s a trophy (TR7 aside).
Maybe we will see on Tuesday the Arsenal that came out against West Ham in the second half at the Ems this season. FFS Bayern lost a final at their home stadium against sixth-placed Chelski. They’re on a great run? Well any run is bound to end.
Come on Wenger. We all know how much you want the CL trophy too…
Geez I hope you’re right. But I have this uneasy feeling about the game and about our glorious managers future if we stuff it up
Gutted! I really hope we play well against Bayern!
I am optimistic. Yeah, I know. I can’t help it
Holic, the last line to the Pink Floyd song referenced in your headline is “The dream is gone, I have become Comfortably Numb”. Pretty much sums it up.
Cheers for the post mate. Hate losing especially to that bunch of northern cunts, but guess what? The sun came up this morning and life goes on. Pretty good day coming up as well. Youngest has now expressed firm interest in joining school football club so we’re going boot shopping. Will have to go on the old credit card given current circumstances, but fuck that – lets ‘ave it you cunts!
If Wenger were fired 3 yeas ago, what have we lost in these 3 years?
For those who feared life without Wenger, the answer may soothe your mind.
In the last 8 years ..Portsmouth and Birmingham (!) won trophies, even Spurs won a trophy. Liverpool won a trophy and CL.
Wenger with 4th highest wage bill in the EPL gives us nothing..other than laughting stock.
The football business is also a result oriented business. The manager buy and sell players, decide the squad and playing tactics. Some of you here blame the players letting Wenger down. But, who buy these players, who make the decision to field them, who train them? If he allowed his players diappoin him, then it is nobody’s fault but his.
Some fans here are too afraid of change. They dare not imagine life wthout Wenger. But 8 years is too long. Lets be brave to make a change. The only thing to fear is fear itself!
Very tired and slightly hungover. Not back-drunk any, I just checked the names of drinkers and by some strange coincidence there are a lot of names that you never ever see after a win. Funny that.
I’ll retreat back into my bubble for a bit.
Great news Esso,
Sun is shining.
Not here it ain’t, mate. Neither literally nor figuratively.
Are we witnessing a slow, painful death of a relationship? The honeymoon phase ended years ago. We loved Wenger unconditionally but the magic and the mystique disappeared years ago.
I’m not convinced anymore of his genius and he seems very human to me.
As with all failing relationships we hope things get better but they never do. There are brief glimpses that the magic will return and then we are cruelly reminded of the reality of the situation.
His team’s selection yesterday was a reflection of Wenger’s narcissism. He genuinely believes that we have a good enough starting XI to beat Bayern over two legs and I suppose he is vain enough to believe that we could win the tournament. A more pragmatic and grounded manager would have recognised the FA cup is a more realistic prospect. Had we won yesterday we would have to have won another three games to win a trophy.
Just to remind ourselves. This is the Arsenal starting XI that lost narrowly to Barcelona in 2006, despite losing Lehmann after 18 minutes:
Lehmann
EbouΓ©
TourΓ©
Campbell
Cole
Pirès
Gilberto Silva
FΓ bregas
Hleb
Ljungberg
Henry (c)
RvP and DB14 were on the bench.
If I wasn’t depressed enough by yesterday’s performance, reminding myself of the 2006 team adds salt to the wound.
Even the Pope can resign. That role is arguably a bigger job than being Arsenal manager.
Not bothered backdrinking, so just went to look for Steve T’s report.
He saw exactly the same game I did. Which is fortunate, as we were sitting next to each other π
Cheers, Steve T. Would have loved to have shared a better game but much appreciated watching it with you still.
(and so Wind’s 100% record ended, it had to someday, I blame his barber π )
North Bank1: I fully appreciate that teams employ differing tactics. My position is that I watch football for enjoyment and if I don’t get that, why should I watch? There are other things in life than football that provide enjoyment and at a fraction of the cost. I stopped going to Highbury years ago when the price went up to a point where I thought they were taking the piss – at least 3 times the price of a ticket to the cinema or theatre. Plus GG was manager and I thought the style of football at that time was excrutiatingly boring (yeah – I know his teams won things too). So I voted with my feet.
Some of us have other interests too. Some of us even think there are more important things in life than Arsenal and prioritise accordingly. There is no way in the world you would get me to fork out Β£1000 a season to watch football – that’s an average of around Β£40 per match. But each to his/her own. I still regard myself as an Arsenal fan and have done for over 40 years. Strangely enough, since moving abroad permanently some 11 years ago, I watch more matches than ever before thanks to streaming. But I reserve the right to choose which matches I watch.
Changing the subject slightly, if Usmanov takes over, that would be the end of it for me. Some things are impossible to swallow. I can still watch football for enjoyment in a less partisan way.
I would really love to know whether wenger got a % age of the profit generated in player sales.
all this catch them young, develop them and sell them on a a huge profit is what killed us. and man city paying over the going rate turned the profs head. I cant see any other reason he failed to strengthen key areas of the squad.
anyway after the pending humiliation against bayern the players can relax and put their feet up. great job if you can get it.
does anyone at the club care any more?
Fine report ‘Holic in trying circumstances. A gutting result and performance.
Where to from here? Bayern that’s where.
Come on Arsenal!
“But days like yesterday will damage us off the pitch as well as on. You couldnβt fail to notice the swathes of empty seats yesterday, people are already voting with their feet. We hear talk of the Arsenal βbrandβ, how we need to protect that and exploit that and make money from that, but lack of success and apparent lack of ambition will damage it to no end. We do not, and have not for some time, come across like a club that is serious about winning things. Make commercial revenue from that, fellas. Who wants to sponsor a team that continues to fail in increasingly spectacular ways?”
Blogs on Arseblog.
He is absolutely right. Football is not Hyundai, or bloody Apple. Football, and the “brand” that follows from it starts and ends with what happens on the pitch.
Not enough people enticed by the “brand” to fill the Emirates yesterday, despite the welter of tickets being advertised at below cost on Twitter and elsewhere, and the “cheap” seats in the family enclosure.
Scare-mongering BtM? I don’t think so old chum. π
The morning after on Twitter.
Not a good place to be.
@ dkgooner
Furry muff.
Quotes from AW:
“Offensively we lacked ruthlessness and calm in front of goal. We didn’t make enough of our corners, and we were vulnerable on one mistake.”
Although the above is true, it also makes me wonder how AW let all that happened. Gervinho was never really ruthless nor calm in front of goal. Why play him last night when chances would not be at a premium?
Corners. Heh. Practice and application makes perfect, and we lacked both of them.
It’s always the same mistakes, and he’s the one supposed to train the bots and help, if not even force the mistakes out of the players. All is not lost, though. Tuesday will come quickly enough.
@North Bank1: Yes, that’s the ticket. When the brain fails, resort to personal abuse.
Boots bought! Off to the park to try them out.
Just before I go; Online Gooner now actually trying to organise Wenger Out chanting during the next home game – see current Editorial but I’m not linking it.
Sums up the poisonous little rag and its poisonous agenda and the poisonous little people who run it. No, lets not get behind the team on the pitch and try and inspire them to beat Bayern (the original function of being a supporter or so I thought), instead lets focus on negative chanting and getting Arsenal supporters to ‘lamp’ each other.
I swear, should I ever bump into any of the outfit that put that crap together, they are getting lamped. Good style.
I really feel many aspects of our support or certainly how it portrays itself online, make us an absolute laughing stock to other clubs.
Jez:
He genuinely believes that we have a good enough starting XI to beat Bayern over two legs and I suppose he is vain enough to believe that we could win the tournament.
…
Just to remind ourselves. This is the Arsenal starting XI that lost narrowly to Barcelona in 2006, despite losing Lehmann after 18 minutes:
Oh yeah, that truly great team of 2005/2006 that was battling it out at the top of the table all season, only narrowly missing out on the league tit… umm, hang on…
And on that note a general observation:
I find it rather funny how many look back on the 2006 final as if reaching it was nothing more than expected because we had all those great players, when in reality most had written us off at every stage of the knock-out phase. No English team had ever beaten Real away, how could anyone expect this crap Arsenal team, fighting to even stay in the top six (yes, it was that bad for a long spell of that season – 26 games into that season we were in fifth place, tied for points with West Ham with Bolton and Wigan only one point behind) to do it? Ok then, we got past them but Juventus, with Vieira in midfield and Zlatan up top, will tear Arsenal a new one. Well they didn’t as it happened, but there is no way Arsenal will get past Juan Roman Riq… I mean Villarreal. Oops, it seems Lehmann saved that penalty, cor blimey!
I am really starting to get the hump with people saying we have no chance at all v Bayern and that we might as well just not bother. We were supposed to be brushed aside by holders Milan in 2008 but in the end beat them rather comprehensibly even though it was only by 2-0 on aggreate. Who in their right mind could expect Bradford to knock out Wigan, Arsenal and Aston Villa on their way to the League Cup final? Who gave Oldham any chance v Liverpool?
Do we have a team good enough to possibly knock Bayern out of the CL? Hell yes. Are we favourites to do it? No, nowhere near it. But this is football, a game can turn on such small things – a slip, a red card, a penalty, a lucky shot from distance, a refereeing cockup, an injury, the weight of expectation gets to a player who crumbles etc etc etc.
Giving up? Well that’s not for me. Bring on Bayern and give it our best shot.
*Stands up and applauds Lars*
Well said Esso #Whitcherout
dk, you were not abused. Furry muff is a quaint old reworking of fair enough. You were being allowed an opinion.
Esso, quite right. Any attempt to start that bollocks chant will inevitably lead to violence. I’m sick of the extremists driving a wedge between supporters.
Don’t mind admitting I am where you were a few weeks back. Seriously considering cutting back on an unpleasant experience next season.
Esso
I had a bit of a running battle, a friendly one with dear old Kevin Whitcher a few years back. He still owes me a ton over a bet about him declaring Cesc had been sold (not that year he hadn’t!). Since then the online Gooners has become such a vile hideous bile spewing mass of hysterical nonsense (in the main, not totally TTg!) that I don’t ever look at it any more.
Calling for fans to poison the atmosphere even more so as to harm our chances even more is despicable and the actions of spoilt children IMO. Any shit like that needs to happen at the end of the season, if it has to.
Lars,
The point I was trying to make is, if we had beaten Blackburn yesterday, we would have had ‘just’ three games to win to get a trophy.
Even if we get a good result on Tuesday, we have to do well in the return leg and then put in very good performances for another five games against superior teams to win the Champions League.
I’m not saying winning on Tuesday is impossible, but based on our inability to perform consistently at a high level all season, I would think our chances of playing well for three games in a lesser competition would be greater.
Lars, of course we have a chance of beating Bayern Tuesday.
Well, the first team does.
But the second string…..? Er, no.
Neither does the second string have much chance of beating other mediocre opposition. History shows this.
So yesterdays decision to rest players that haven’t played all week is what does my head in.
I can take losing if it’s our best possible team playing as best as they can.
But being charged top dollar to watch groundhog day is what takes the piss.
I don’t know what other options there are, except to stop going.
BTW, I might think it’s time for AW to go, but i’ll never chant for him to go. Totally disrespectful and very chelski like.
‘Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
George Santayana not Arsene Wenger
So ‘holic
I brought a bottle of drink in for Miss Jacks yesterday.
About 10 minutes before kick off I dropped it and it rolled down under the seats in front and then down to the other side of a barrier to where the TV people and groundsmen sit.
A bloke in the row in front climbed over to retrieve it for us, one of the stewards came over and grabbed him and said he was going to chuck him out because he had invaded a restricted area.
We thought he was joking at first but next thing he’s calling for back up. We had to explain what had happened and I had to show him the bottle and was beginning to think I would be kicked out as well bottle.
In the end the steward calmed down and left it.
I think we needed ‘holic’s calming influence
Too much bottle
Too volatile you, mate π
Time for a pub roast. Laters.
I honestly feel we’re being sold a pup in the FA Cup. It’s a very familiar feeling going out of the cup with so little effort. Remember United away 2008?
It appears that the FA Cup holds very little for Wenger now. Surely that should be reflected in giving the fans the option not to go to FA Cup games at home. Take the games off the season ticket. Make it optional like the Carling Cup.
If Wenger & the team continue to not turn up to the FA Cup games then the season ticket holders should be able to do the same.
NBank1 @107:
I don’t blame the board for anything. I certainly do not accuse them of accounting fraud.
I read many comments here along the lines of “We have <insert large number here>, and yet Wenger hasn’t brought in <insert list of players and or positions where we need to strengthen here>”. The commenters go on to assert that “Wenger has lost it” or “The board need to be replaced”. I sought to advance an alternate explanation of this apparent paradox and went on to explain why I think my alternate explanation is reasonable and at least may be correct.
Please note that I don’t believe I have ever asserted that the squad doesn’t need strengthening.
Throughout my life, my family and friends have never been slow to point out when I have made a fool of myself. I don’t begrudge it to them, I think it’s helped me to pause before opening my mouth and to choose my words carefully when I do open it. I merely seek to offer the same service to posters here.
(The last paragraph was intended to explain my reasons for posting. I explicitly do not intend it to be a criticism of any poster.)
Cheers, tabs.
@Esso
So you endorse hitting your fellow supporters for viewing their opinion in a democratic fashion? Sorry, but that is utterly lamentable and Goonerholic should hang his head in shame for agreeing with that point of view.
You need to get a grip and accept that Wenger is no different to any other manager, when the PAYING PUBLIC have had enough they have had enough and are more than entitled to show their dissatisfaction.
Ooh fuck off. I was convinced Bordeaux vs Lyon was the big game tonight.
Just flicked through the channels, and how can we be fucking losing at home to that shower of shit cunts? 4-0.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh, what a completely shite weekend.
Gervinho shows flashes of quality, though they are few and far between. He has never been a prolific goal scorer, but he had a run of form in the ACN, two goals in three games, both clutch match winners, so not so surprising he started yesterday. Not sure what this means. but he rarely scores in games his side lose. It has only happened twice in the past three seasons.
Gervinho socring goals in some tinpot competition like the Africa Cup of Nations means little when his form for Arsenal since joining has been mainly diabolical. He just isn’t good enough and his style of play just seems to confuse all around him. Would he be anywhere near the first team squad of any of our rivals? Another example of why one should be wary of players who do well in an international tournament is Sebastian Coates – young player of the tournament in the most recent Copa America for Uruguay, turns out he’s absolutely hopeless and looked out of his depth against Oldham recently.
Arsene has done a great job for us over the years but I think it would be best for all concerned if he were to move on in the summer. He has overseen a substantial decline in recent years which is now getting steeper year on year, appears too wedded to his beloved “principles”, both tactical and financial, which are hindering the progress of the club he manages and it is clear he is unable to motivate the players effectively anymore. Time for new ideas, time for the deadwood at the club to be moved on and to start afresh. Arsenal is a club with so much potential but to try to realise this we need to move on.
Of course the boo’s were understandable as they always are with this team of no hopers, you just about brought yourself to admit that.But as usual you conveniently didn’t mention the real problem, even though we all know what it is even you, and thats wenger as long as he remains nothings going to change.But keep enjoying your curry’s and thinking whenever we do win everythings rosy in the garden again until the next time and the next and the next until fans like you wake up.
So where do we go from here?
See Lars @133.
Saddle up…lock n load. Game on.
Just for the record, I don’t remember Giroud scoring a single goal when playing together with Gervinho. I could be wrong, but not by much.
So finally we have the answer we’ve all been waiting for, the answer to all our woes, the reason for our current difficulties.
Holic, stop eating the bloody curries, it’s all your fault.
No more poppadums for you m’lad.
I despair.
Genuinely.
Et tu, TaBS?
So, Arsenal sold a Highbury-full plus 10 percent worth of tickets in a game against one of the football worlds lesser brands? Not too bad. I think it was also the game that sold most tickets of all on the day? But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the promise of the brand that is Arsenal? Sometimes just doing better than everyone else is good enough business.
I think you know that my comment was related to your assertion that dads need to pay 390 quid to take two kids to see Arsenal. That isn’t true based on my personal experience of the Junior Gunners scheme (by a factor of 5.5) and was, I think, only rhetoric at the expense of the clubs reputation.
I’m pleased that the theme of my brand piece migrated to other blogs. However, the sentiment you quote indicates the existing level of comprehension of the subject. In fact Arsenall HAS been able to “Make commercial revenue from that, fellas” although only finishing third in the league last year and being in Europe’s top 16 for a unique 16 consecutive years. Despite this abject under-performance, revenues are increasing well – just not well enough for my liking. (Refere Parts 1 and 2 of The View). In times of hardship – great maketers turn things around. These improving commercial revenues are fundamental to the success we all crave on the field.
My point is simple. This game is now driven by money. The most affluent can attract and retain the world’s best players. If Arsenal wants to compete (absent of the sugar daddy model) it needs to perform better on the business side. Brand has a critically important role in building the income stream in markets where the team will never, ever play a competitive game. That particular revenue stram will grow in importance as match day revenues diminish in importance.
Without that hard cash, the product on the field will wither because the wealthier will continue to attract and retain the Van Skunks etc. Of-course the two are inextricably linked (you’ll recall the Apple brand suffered when their technology dipped π ). Regarding “it must be a winning team” – 7-letter word, begins with b and ends with s. When Manure were relegated to the second division, they were able to continue building their brand in Asia. They are now reaping the rewards of that intelligent business focus.
Head in the sand or head in the brand? I’m backing the latter. IVAN, give me call. I have a track record. I can help you prosper. Honest.
If only that Holic could cure his eating dis-order, we would be Champions of everything.
If only we had the vision of Dave squared who can see what the problem is, but then does not inform us of the solution.
Probably, “Mark Hughes”.
As always, above post compiled with tongue (just a little) in cheek. I must say that I’ve been tickled by the extent to which non-football oriented topics have stimulated so much high quality to and fro. We need to ask the Guvnor to articulate for us the promis of the Goonerholic brand. The tag line – eat, sleep, breathe, drink – is a real winner, but the brand promise has evolved way beyond that in my opinion.
Holic, you do realise that Goonerholic brand has significant global value don’t you. Free advice is available on request on building it further.
I love Arsenal and always will, but our current squad are mediocre at best, there are exceptions of course but very few, our manager has always been and will always be tactically inept, his ability to turn around games is not proven……ever, even if you take our recent Jekyl and Hyde games, we should never have been so abject in the first half of any of those games, there is no motivation to do better, no threat that being so consistently crap will see you drop to the bench, and even if you are having a blinding game he will probably sub you and leave somebody else who is having a shocker on the pitch.
There is no respect for the fans anymore, the highest priced season tickets and for what exactly?
To see us continually crash out of competitions that we should be winning, to see us selling our best players (usually the captain) and buying in some more subpar players, and then being stuck with so many utterly shite players that even sending them out on loan is tough, we have a huge squad and fully three quarters of it is not up to the job of representing Arsenal, our managers grand scheme fell apart years ago and still he treats the fans with contempt.
How many of us realistically expected a great signing in January?
Monreal does look brilliant, and hopefully will continue to look better and better…..but was that the only position we need cover in…..really?
Hi all!
Yes, I know, “he only posts when things are bad!”
So, now I am going to call for his head, right?!
Well, I have actually been REALLY busy lately but have continued reading the Guvnor’s fine words and, of course, the drinks and I have to say that this is the most “nail on the head” post you have made in a while ‘Holic. Very well done.
I said all along that I would not actually call for Wenger’s head until we had a chance to see what action would be taken in the transfer window.
Answer?
Almost none, of course!
So, now I am going to call for his head, right?!
No super, super quality signings to cover us in goal, at centre-back, in defensive midfield nor at centre forward.
In fact, no signings at all if you discount the enforced purchase of Nacho.
What a total and utter disgrace!
So, now I am going to call for his head, right?!
We apparently saw fit to get rid of more players than the majority of our “rivals” signed between them and did nothing to address the gaping holes in “Wenger’s best ever squad.”
We heard how busy we would be in the window.
Then how we needed to sort out Theo’s contract first (which, incidentally, I maintain was all a smoke-screen to get out of signing anybody in the transfer window as well as a great way to get JW10, Ramsey et al to sign up for vastly inferior wages before offering Theo a contract so big that he is weighed down so much by it that he cannot actually run back when Blackburn are clearly breaking against us in a season-defining, must-win game.)
Then we heard the old bollocks about “super, duper, pooper, scooer players.”
Then we heard the usual…NOTHING.
So, now I am going to call for his head, right?!
WRONG!
I agree 100% with ‘Holic that 1 result does not define a club, a manager or a team, although I would guess that we disagree regarding whether or not this result is a freak. I also agree that this is a game we have seen a hundred times in the last few years, although I would guess that we disagree on what action should be taken to ensure that it is not such a repetitive pattern.
We are just far too easy to frustrate, far too predictable in our approach and far, far, far too precious and proud to actually do anything about it.
Giroud should have spent at least 15-20 minutes yesterday receiving every other ball into their half on his head and chest before knocking it down for the likes of Theo to try and run on to. Any other team in the EPL would have at least given it a go. He has shown time and again that he can play with his back to the goal, so why not use that talent when we so desperately needed to?
Oh yes, that’s right, that would be the “long ball game” and we would rather go a decade without a pot to piss in tha
Wenger subbed Rosicky, the only player to actually beat their keeper, although, sadly, not the crossbar. The only player that looked creative enough to actually undo their ludicrously parked bus.
And why? Obviously because Wenger has lost the plot regarding in-game tactics?
NO! It is because he has lost the plot regarding buying players to fill the gaping holes, no, WOUNDS in the squad whilst allowing some of the best talent in the world to go wherever they wanted, whenever they wanted.
Rosicky came off because he simply cannot complete 90 minutes of football at that pace after so much time out of the game over the past few years and so many serious injuries. Obviously, with Diaby like a new signing…
HA!
Clearly wenger must have known that when he was deciding not to buy anybody at all to fill that obvious voids we have in this squad, right?!
So, the only question that remains must be this…
WHY am I NOT calling for Wenger’s head?
Put simply, he is clearly NOT the man he once was and may well never be again. He has lost all the squad-building nous that formed such a strong part of his successes with us. He has lost the ability to string together a few decent results against whatever opposition is put in front of him. He has lost a section of the fans and we are about to guarantee an 8th trophyless season when we take a hammering from the Germans this week and in two weeks time.
But let’s be fair, he has gotten this club so tied around his little finger that anybody trying to come in would find it almost impossible to make sense of any of it, let alone put up with the mentality of trying to feed the bank balance before the trophy cabinet.
I am so bored hearing that he should go before he destroys his legacy. He got us into this fucking mess, he should get us out of it and, if he doesn’t, fuck him and his legacy, they can both go to hell for all I care any more.
I know, I am now officially part of the “Anti-Wenger Brigade,” right? Well, actually, no, I still have a deep desire for him to fix this and put us in something like the shape we should be in BEFORE he goes, the problem is, I don’t think HE has the same desire any more.
And for that reason, the desire to do what is NECESSARY, I now feel that Wenger is a lost cause and the damage he has done has become so profound as to be something that may well take years to reverse and that, my wise, trusted and knowledgeable Gooners In Arms, is why he should be allowed to finish putting the nails in his own coffin BEFORE we ask somebody else to take responsibility for the mess that he would leave behind were he to go now or even at the end of this season.
A bit nihilistic, maybe, but I see it all needing to come back to zero so that a fresh page in our history can be exactly that. Fresh.
8 years without a trophy? I guarantee that will extend to the end of Wenger’s reign, however far down the line that may be.
I love my club and I love what Wenger has done in the long distant past (almost a fifth of my entire life ago!) but now is the time to sit back and watch it all burn.
Hopefully the Phoenix that rises afterwards will be wearing red and white!
Oh, and by the way, the calls for Moyes are just silly. I was actually typing a few words regarding this subject…
“Moyes? HA! The old success on a shoestring bit doesn’t work for me, sorry. His teams are as erratic and capable of…”
…when I decided to do some back-drinking before posting and discovered the exact same point being made by Norris.
So, well said that man!
That was a long, passionate drink TW. Drinks on me.
I hope the Phoenix will rise on Tuesday Night wearing red and white. If the shite chickens could win with 1 shot on goal last night, surely the red and white Phoenix has a chance of rising against the Bavarians.
Sport is about hope. Possibilities. And pushing to the very limit. Let’s hope we show all three in the next game.
Depressed Gooners
I wouldn’t say the squad is mediocre, far from it. In fact, if anything I would say they have performed less than the sum of their parts. On paper they are excellent players, we could do with a few more, yet consistently fail to show it. Who is to blame for that, apart from holics dietary habits? The manager, coaching staff and the players themselves I imagine. With Bouldy as Wengers number two, I really thought we had the makings of a dream partnership and early in the season, it looked as if we had a title challenging side…. Even the likes of Hansen and Savage! Thought as much…. Yet here we are, a gazillion points off the top of the league, out of the domestic cups and with a tough champions league draw…. So what to do? Support the team and will them to victory obvs! π
I imagine there may well be significant change come the end of the season.
Thierry
Ha! Thanks and thank Dennis someone else agrees with me, thought it would never happen!
“Et tu tabs”
No idea to what you refer BtM. My last comment @154 was aimed at the nonsense that was post 151.
With all due respect, my assertion that a Dad with two kids pay Β£390 was related to a previous post which stated that my father was able to take me to the NLD every year throughout my childhood. If he was still around, and I was a kid, he couldn’t do that now. Maybe as a birthday treat, but Spurs on the Saturday, Bayern on the Tuesday, Villa on the Saturday? Nah. I’m also guessing he wouldn’t be alone. Hence the empty seats.
Fulham ain’t no Tottenham. It’s the Tottenham’s at home that make the Fulham’s at home worth it.
The Family Membership? Fair enough as far as it goes, but far too limited. Not in the scheme or fail to get tickets through the scheme? Three tickets behind the goal in the Upper tier (a good but not first class view), will set you back Β£390. Case closed. “Rhetoric at the Club’s expense?” Tosh, whether your tongue is in your cheek or not! π
Whatever you might propound, the attendance of children in the crowd IS significantly lower than say twenty or even ten years ago. Not just at Arsenal but everywhere throughout the Premiership. Open your eyes man.
The greatest trick that marketeers ever pulled? Convincing the rest of us they had anything worthwhile to say, or that what they said had any relation to reality.
Still you might be right. I’ve got the Lynx on again, maybe today’s the day bikini babes make an appearance. Maybe today’s the day I start loving the Volkswagen more than my family. Who knows? Perhaps football will just become brand vs brand. Luckily, by the time this dystopian world full of corporate double-speak and false entreaties occurs, I’ll be long gone, my Arsenal bobble hat and Tollie dancing shoes consigned to history.
The point Blogs made, and made very well, is that no amount of claptrap promoting the “brand”, (*raises eyes to the ceiling and tuts loudly*), will do any good if the product doesn’t do what it says on the tin. Product is all. The rest is bullshit.
I’ll stick with my “lack of comprehension” thanks.
By the way, didn’t realise you were chinese BtM. All part of the marketing I guess. Maybe I’ll get Wolfie to say how good this post is. π
Sorry tabs, shit post. π
Can’t wait until we appoint Michael Laudrup. It’ll be great to have a manager who knows how important it is to field his first XI and who will spare us from any further shameful results.
*checks the scores*
Oh.
Well there goes my original post down the drain after composing it on my phone then pressing the back button by mistake.
As the boys tippy-tapped their way around the pitch towards the end of the first half, I saw the game mapped out before me. Of course Rosicky’s top corner whanger could have just as easily gone in, which would render my prediction wrong. But you know what I’m talking about, chaps. There was nothing unfamiliar about that performance, that lax style of play, the visitors’ tactics and the way they were approached. If you feel that that goal could have happened to anyone, well sure it could but we definitely excel at games like that.
Now, onto matters Bavarian. If Blackburn can do that to us, we can do that to Bayern. The brutal truth? I don’t rate our chances above 33.3% and I expect us to draw at best and give away at least one cheap goal through retarded defending. But sod it, this is MY team and I support them whatever happens.
N7@166: and that was one full week before playing a League Two team. What would he have done three days before playing a really good team???
BtM @ 155 β I do admire your tenacity in returning the subject of branding, but Iβm afraid I have to disagree with quite a large part of what you have written over the past days.
Football is not about brand building. Nor should it be. It is about winning. It is not just the most important thing about the game, it is the only thing. Until they replace football with some game in which points are awarded for artistic impression or having comfy seats in a stadium, it is about absolutely nothing else.
We do not have league tables composed of teams in which places are awarded based upon which sides run their finances well. We have leagues in which the teams who do the most winning, end up at the top. We do not have cup competitions in which teams are knocked out if their sponsorship deals fall short, their haircuts are rubbish, or their stadium catering is shit. We have cup competitions in which the victors on the pitch progress to the next round and the next round, until there remains one single winner.
Of course it is great when finances are run well, but the point of that exercise is to have the funds available to attract top talent in order toβ¦win more games.
Moreover to compare a football βbrandβ with comparators in fast moving consumer goods or consumer electronics is utterly specious. Apart from a few plastics, we do not make the same purchasing decisions about football as we do about consumer goods, a point that has been made so often on this site that it is getting sad that some of us have to KEEP making it. Football is an entirely different market, with wholly different dynamics, and supply and demand curves that are as different from those of consumer goods as Tony Pulis is to a human being.
However, if we are to this indulge in this phoney comparator exercise then the Arsenal is most definitely NOT Coca Cola or Apple or whichever fancy brand comes to mind. We are supermarket own brand soft drink (from a nice expensive supermarket mind, Waitrose probably). And the only way in which we can be compared with Apple is that we cost too much, and do stuff that other βbrandsβ do much better without the unfortunate impact on our wallets. So Iβd rather pass on those comparisons frankly.
World leading brands β all of them, in all markets, and in all sectors β are built on the saliency of their promise for purchasers. The key driver in this for a football brand is simply success on the pitch. All other things are secondary. And if you doubt me, go ask the βconsumersβ of other football βbrandsβ like Leeds, Liverpool or Forest how they feel about having a historic βbrandβ that doesnβt win things, and I hope they donβt smack you in the gob too hard.
Losing is not attractive to supporters or to sponsors. It is not attractive to top talent either, who frankly couldnβt give a shit about a fat pile of readies in the bank when what they want is 10 others players out there with them on the pitch, pulling out all the stops to win, from kick off to the final whistle. And if that top talent is only concerned about the readies, then let them go to Man City or Chelsea where I am more than happy to watch them spectacularly underachieve relative to their cost.
If Arsenal continue to take this casual approach to winning whilst focusing on the βbrandβ, we will sink. As will our βbrandβ. We are not some fucking Harlem Globe Trotters exhibition squad. We are the Arsenal. We used to win stuff. I want us to do so again, and until we do βbrandingβ can go bugger itself. Focus on getting back to winning and commercial success will follow. Because winning is what football brands are built on.
He’d just need to sign you up as a Junior as my lad has done and you’d be good to go. No I’m not Chinese. Product is all the rest is bullshit. Well, well.
Next haddock is on me. I shall seek out the excellent brand that is the Chip Inn Fish Bar not because the product is all but that particular establishment has attributes that differentiate it from its many peers and make it worth the extra siller.
On the tee in Kissimee in ten. Golf too has nothing to do with brand right? Have some sunshine on me. π
Peach,
You want to read what has been written.
I have no objection to peaceful protest.
What I do object to is an editorial in a fanzine that incites Arsenal supporter to fight Arsenal supporter to satisfy the viewpoint of the author.
If…fights are breaking out in the crowd over the issue…That would force action. Itβs horrible to have to do, but needs must.
At what point did I do anything other than object in the strongest terms to supporters hitting each other.
Do schools not teach comprehension any longer?
Lars @133 knows best .Heh @ N7 – 166. Lol!
Based on all these fortune tellers – Why even bother playing the game against Bayern? Why even bother watching sports? After all, why do some of us keep forgetting that the results of sports are predetermined? Why waste our time and energy?
Remember that we all knew that Arsenal would lose to Blackburn 1 nil at home with their only shot on target.
It puzzles me that I keep forgetting these things.
Thanks Derrick. Don’t mind if I do!
You are, of course, completely right regards the hope, hence my public wish to see Wenger turn it all around. I still harbour the same wish to see Arsenal succeed as ever and I still want it to be the illustrious Wenger that completes the trick. I just don’t see that happening any more.
I also think that some serious questions should be answered honestly by the board and Wenger regarding transfer policy. There are those that will say that it is a private business and thus we have no actual right to know anything regarding the policies of the club. Technically, that is correct, but in reality, well, we all know the difference.
As for Tuesday…let’s talk about that on Wednesday! π
Norris:
I actually fell into the “Moyes Trap” a while back, actually thought it a decent idea in fact.
Takes all sorts!
At last! The horse before the cart. A recognition that the cake is rather more important than the icing. That’s the post I’ve been waiting for.
Well played Snowy.
Impec1:
You do, of course, make a very good point and I would like to think that a cheeky 1-0 at home followed by a blood and thunder defensive performance for a 0-0 in their place will secure our passage to the next round giving us the chance to eventually show Cesc what a dreadful decision he made leaving a club so obviously on the up when we knock Barcelona out of the ECL!
Let me reiterate…I would LIKE to think that. Unfortunately we will probably see some pointless sideways passing exercise for about 20 minutes whilst getting murdered on the break by a simply clinical Bayern side that may well go on and win the competition this time around.
But, as you quite rightly said, or did so in a roundabout way anyway, anything can happen in football.
Just odd that Citeh beat Brentford 4-0, Chel$ki Rovers beat Leeds 4-0 and let’s not bet against seeing The Rotter and his shit-hole club saunter past Reading either.
It seems that anything can happen in football and probably will…To Arsenal!
Just seen this on Twitter thought I would share in this great bar. Well worth a read.
http://t.co/BcyLktmp
I am looking forward to the game on Tuesday…. If our inconsistent form is anything to go by, we are due a solid performance and a healthy thigh slapping victory. Unless the Online Gooners inspired self destruct button is activated…. After that we have winnable league games to play where there won’t be any need to rest or rotate, so no need for any hand wringing over selections. On that note, I am a bit concerned by AOCs lack of form… I really thought he’d be playing the central midfield attacking foil by now… He’s still very young and raw I guess…
Thierry
I think you’ll find all the teams you list have gone out of the cup to lower league teams previously.
People bang on about “the magic of the cup” and then cry like injured schoolgirls when some of self said magic arrives at their own doorstep.
It happens to everyone. It sucks when it’s you. It’s great when it’s your rivals. Life moves on regardless.
There are problems with this team/squad/club. But there will always, always be the odd cup game we lose to weaker opposition who land just one shot on target.
And, as many others have pointed out, it’s that very fact that gives us some hope against Bayern. Roll on midweek.
COYG
Thanks tabs! π
Now as for this utter tosh from the Gooner – really do we expect anything else from that lot?
Time to reboot that sorry brand I think. Let’s fix up an interactive workshop focused on upscaling the publishing talent pool from outside the standard swim lanes, and imagineer some high level, strategic components of an empowering, solutions-driven Idea Bank of best practice to shift paradigms, move the needle AND think outside the box. All at once. With fuckinβ metrics on.
Or we could just call them ‘c*nts’. Happy either way really.
Heh @ 180
I like the short version. 8)
Some errr Anorak has compiled an interesting looking list here….. Never mind Moyes for the next manager, we should be going balls out to get the big guns…. Frank Clark and Claudio Ranieri…
http://www.anorak.co.uk/348091/sports/arsenal-arsene-wenger-is-worth-16-6-points-to-the-overachieving-gunners-every-season.html/?
Good job were out of the cup, a win would only prolonging the inevitable, we’d be playing Millwall, so no chance there then….
@180 π π
Lars @ 133: Lovely, clear-eyed post that looks at the past for what it was and not the romantic reimagining of it that masquerades as nostalgia. That 2006 run to the CL final was really surprising, unpredictable and at odds with patchy domestic form. A little bit of luck, and may be a bit more clinical finishing, we actually win that thing and the club’s evolution potentially takes a different path with potentially more cash injected through commercial deals in the last few years. On such small margins so much of top level football is decided.
I fully agree with Arsene when he uses consistency as both the requirement as well as the benchmark for success. And his managerial stint has been extraordinarily, remarkably consistent with us. Yesterday’s loss was the first time he lost an FA cup tie to a lower league opposition in his sixteen years at Arsenal!!! That really is remarkable. But not as remarkable as thirteen years straight at the knock-out stage of CL.
So when we all accuse him of tactical rigidity or inability to change — myself included — we don’t probably give him as much credit as we should. Or we forget the measure of success and focus on the sporadic failures. We are fans after all, and not reasonable analysts.
On that note, this incarnation of Arsenal is actually a bloody good team but we have played too many ‘sum-less-than-the-parts’ game with disjointed performances. I guess to be expected of a team being rebuilt with different players learning to play together. However recently the performances had picked up and there is a cohesiveness in performance as well as a collective desire on display. I guess that is why yesterday’s defeat is harder to take: not only it brings back the type of awkward performances that we had hoped we had seen the last of this season, as well as the latent fear in all of us that maybe the team is psychologically too fragile to immediately recover from it in coming season-defining weeks. And we wonder the things Arsene could have done (should have done?) to avoid these worries.
Our criticism — especially the depressed, the nihilist and the uber-cynical varieties — are the reflection of our own psychological insecurities about Arsenal which obviously represents a tie (for whatever reasons) much more deeper than just a football club, or a brand, or a sporting franchise. Whatever atavistic recesses of tribalism they originated from, the power of those ties are fundamental to our well being. Obviously.
That is why Arsene often says that he and his team must always need to take a distance from the results to be able to evaluate and respond accordingly. Could it be possible that taking that distance and being able to make full objective analysis has become too difficult for the managerial team? That is why I have always felt Arsene would benefit from having a second hand football man who is not Arsenal (no disrespect to Pat Rice or Steve Bould), but a good tactician nonetheless. The constantly changing tactician/analysts Fergie uses do benefit him significantly.
Anyway, I fully believe that we can actually beat Bayern over home-and-away. I don’t think we are strong enough to win CL this year, but weaker teams than us have won (was Jose’s Porto that great a team on paper? It had a few very good players…) so there is always hope. π
Massive heh@180!
Thanks all for the kind words about my drink@133.
average performance wasn`t enough, players thought “keep playing this way it will happen” no one prepared to try something different or risky”, do we incite that fear, are some players wilting in home games? Do we encourage players or subdue them, I mean players hear howls of derision not disappointment. Our crowd has become ultra critical, not supportive of a player having a “mare”. Should we be doing a BIT MORE ? No player deliberately under performs in front of 55000 people.
N7 knows as usual! Thanks for being the voice of reason at all times.
Weren’t Bayern the favourites in their own stadium when an insipid Chelsea beat them to win the Champions’ League?
Yes Thierry, anything can happen and I’ll continue to believe that until proven otherwise. Without that mindset, it’s pointless watching sports.
Nevertheless, I’m just a bit envious of the fortune tellers as if I had the powers that they possess, I think I’d be wealthier than the Sheikh(up at Oil City).
Sknowy knows!
The debate is still understandably heated 24 hours- ish on. It’s great that the Arsenal do generate such passion. The worst thing would be apathy.
I have yet to read the editorial on the Online Gooner but will be heading over there to read it. If I believe that what is proposed will ultimately harm the club( and booing and chanting at games and open dissent which affects the team on the pitch definitely does) I shall terminate my association as a writer with that publication which dates back 25 years. If you read yesterday’s printed edition you will see that the debate we had on here about whether printed media are viable in this day and age was brought up by the Editor. Clearly sales are down. Apart from a change in taste I know a lot of readers are frustrated with the negative tone of most of the major contributors although there are still some funny pieces from time to time. Last season I ghosted a column from AW which was an affectionate attempt to point out his foibles,the frustrations of being in charge of some difficult characters and generally meant to raise a chuckle but I think it was a one season thing. Certainly I wrote it from a perspective that if AW read it he might have a wry smile at some of the gentle digs and the themes you develop over a season .
The angriest piece I have written this year was about PHW after the AGM. I still feel very unhappy about him thanking us for ‘ your interest in our affairs’ .A few days later he had a heart attack.While I feel no personal responsibility for that I did wish him a very full recovery. Surely we can separate our frustration over Arsenal from the personal animosity and bile we see on so many sites and blogs. I want him replaced as Arsenal Chairman and at the same time wish him all the best for a long and healthy retirement. I don’t see that as incompatible.
The problem with the current situation at Arsenal is that too many people can’t keep any perspective about what is appropriate protest and what may harm the team and the club. I hope that this group of passionate but decent supporters on this site can stay the right side of the line.A few of us are old enough to remember the last days of Billy Wright and the poison that erupted from the terraces then. Playing in a stadium with 20,000 people all chanting Wright Must Go throughout the game destroys the team and creates a sideshow that gives an already negative media far too much ammunition to further damage the club..
@177 Austrian Gooner- cheers! Nice moment of respite that was. Ok, back to gloom and doom for me…
Tabs @164,
I’ll say what a good post that was, even if Wolfie won’t. π
That was my point about Hyundai – which I think you took the same way – no amount of advertising is going to turn round the longer term fortunes of a crap product.
They only improved their situation by investing in every aspect of the product FIRST.
A declining product on the pitch at The Emirates will eventually lead to far too many empty seats, which does not make for compelling viewing on any TV screen. Without the billions now paid by TV for football, I imagine the structure would collapse.
If people who live in and around London cannot be bothered to attend matches, why would folk in the further flung reaches of Indonesia be interested.
A question:
If Arsenal did decline to the point where they finished eighth, or thereabouts, in the league every season, and a team of newbies – let’s say MK Dons – invested, found an amazing mix of committed players and rose to compete genuinely in the Champions League every year, with all the TV exposure that entails, whose brand would be easier to develop in all these emerging markets ?
For me, success on the pitch will outsell unfulfilled promises of things to come and tales of victories twenty years ago every time.
Now off to read Snowy’s post which I just noticed on the way through.
You can never have too much snow…. Ohh.
Well said TTG. May I join you in wishing PHW a speedy recovery and many happy, healthy years of retirement.
COYG
Well Snowy, I should just have credited your post before bothering to write my own.
Marvellous stuff.
Blimey. Lots of great posts. Snowy, tabs, top stuff.
Be the best you can be. Then surely the brand and the marketing almost take care of themselves?
Has that been mentioned before somewhere???????
π
Oh. Been up in the mountains all day and just got to read Arseblog.
What a come down – in every sense.
Trouble is, he’s dead right. Things are in a mess of our own making.
Ibrahimovic is shit.
PSG Currently 2-1 down (for the assist)
But havent the board, gazidis et al been criticised loads for failing to capitalise on Arsenal’s past successes resulting in piss poor, comparatively, marketing and sponsorship deals? (I know Ivan G wasnt around then, but he tends to carry the can alot!)
Got to say that whole aspect to the game bores me rigid, but it does look like another example of the club getting slated regardless of what they do. We never took to pre-season tours of far flung places and the club and manager got slated for not maximising the ‘brand’, then when they finally cotton onto that particular money spinner, they are criticised for flying 1000s of miles when they should be getting ready for the serious business of finishing a distant 4th.
There is no question that clubs have to work hard to maintain and improve their marketability home and abroad and simply hoping that a trophy or 2 will automatically make it happen (It helps obviously!), but there does seem to be an imbalance, with too much emphasis on the business side that is detrimental to the actual bread and butter stuff. There will be a time, in my opinion, when the norm will be ‘fans’ changing their allegience on a regular basis, unfortunately. maybe thats why clubs are so obsessed with branding, marketing etc etc…
Norris got 100, and now 200. Perfect timing.
In 2005 at the Cup Final in Cardiff how we laughed at our great erstwhile rivals Manchester United who had just been bought by some American asset- strippers. It also helped that we won the Final quite undeservedly ( although we defended like heroes and our goalkeeper was brilliant) . Served them right for kicking us off the pitch and diving in the infamous 50 th match back in October.
Walking out of Cardiff that day I felt that we might see a change in the balance of power in English football. We were moving to a huge new stadium and United were falling into dubious ownership. Would they still be able to afford the mega- buys like Rooney, Van Nistelrooy and Ferdinand that had given them an advantage over us that the brilliance of our manager had negated?
Just wait until we had 60,000 watching us every week we thought. Just wait until those Americans rip off huge dividends every season and of course Fergie retires. It’s Chelsea and us from hereon in.
Eight years on we won’t be back in the Cup Final and United well might.But despite dubious ownership they have maintained their competitiveness at the top of the League without huge slugs of largesse from their owners , although they have spent more profligately than us in that time. The money has been generated because they have the best merchandising machine in the world backed up by a first class football product- and they have a manager who has reinvented himself brilliantly over the years. Or it may be the other way round. They have a first class football team backed by an awesome marketing machine.And of course a great manager.
At the moment we have none of these three but I agree that a great brand while vital is indivisible from a top- class product. Those American asset- strippers have been wise enough to invest in a top quality team and have only lost one mega star( for an astronomical price) in that time. The influx of talent has been inwards although the debt burden of the club has moved in inverse proportion to ours. Somehow I felt better about things in 2006 in Paris when our debt burden was at its highest!
So Im agreeing that you can’t divorce a top quality product from the need for a top quality marketing organisation who can build a brand worthy of the team. Astride it all you need a brilliant manager.
I will let others judge if my assessment that we lack all three elements at the moment is fair. I don’t think many would argue that if we are to follow the sustainable route which is infinitely preferable we need to do what United have done so well ( damn them). They are the best example of staying properly competitive without becoming an oligarch’s toy.
Seminal post ‘holic.
Top, top post Snowy! Hits the proverbial nail smack in the middle of it’s head!
No brand can go from where we were to where we are now without some serious questions of its objectives and direction in the market it competes its product within not being asked. That questioning is now at its most vociferous and without a new and successful platform very soon, some major decision-making heads in the company will fall. “Be the best you can be always!” No one really asks for more from their football club!
TTG;
The Glazers have constently stripped the club in numerous ways, from youth and ladies teams, to the brand of tea bag in the canteen. They have not invested in real terms, but in Ferguson they have a consistent trophy winner who demands that in order to keep and entice their and others (who am I on about?) best players, they pay the same kind of wages that the chavs and more recently the blue mancs pay.
Arsenal don’t do that and if I am honest, I dont want us to. Any comparison with manU is not a good one and I don’t know anyone who thought we were on the cusp of becoming the main player in the league when we scraped that FA cup win. Quite the opposite.
Ollie
Clinical mate… π
Just an idle thought, but given how high the levels of frustration with the Arsenal appear to be at present, I wonder which other English club we’d like to fill the shoes of.
Skint Everton who win as little as we do and never make the Champs League? Liverpool, languishing in upper mid table and only just coming off the back of their own cup shock?
Our old friends the LWCs, perhaps? But they’re not in the cup either, their stadium is a shit hole, their manager is 12 years old and their best player will be off in the summer? Plus, y’know, they’re LWCs.
City? Chelsea? The two biggest shams in English football. We could be them quite easily. All it would take, I would suspect, would be to relax our standards, risk our future, open the boardroom door and let the toad hop in. Anyway, neither support seems all that happy right now.
So, that leaves Utd. Utd who seem to be accelerating away from us, on and off the pitch. But then, we’d have to live in Manchester. Every silver lining has its cloud.
Steve T is spot on to ask if we’re the best we can be. Jesus, we’re a long way from it, and that’s worrying.
But that doesn’t necessitate hysteria. Hysteria just makes us look like bellends, and clouds the debate. The manager isn’t senile, he hasn’t stopped caring, he isn’t taking back-handers off transfers. He did, however, take off our best performer yesterday for no apparent reason, so clearly mistakes are being made without having to invent them.
I’m not saying it’s all rosy, although personally I do prefer BtM’s sunny side. What I’m saying is let’s all keep a bit of perspective.
Oh, and just to repeat; I have never, in all my years going to the football, heard an opposition team get booed off at half time by their own support and thought “sh!t – that’s bound to lift their game”. Anyone trying to organise booing or chants against the manager needs to take a look at themselves and ask whether their need to vent is truly greater than the needs of the team. Have a bit of fucking backbone lads.
COYG
Norris,
United is THE only comparison point for us because they are follwing a sustainable route. You make a very naive point about wages. Wenger’s “socialist” structure lumbers us with dross like Squillaci and Co who we can’t sell and in some cases can’t loan without a major subsidy to the loaning club.I think United (whose overall wage bill is not substantially higher than ours )are right to pay top dollar to the very top players, That’s how you keep them.Btm was right in his original post that successful commercial marketing is essential for a top football club nowadays and Trev is rightly adding that your football performance must match it. We don’t have either at present.
And in 2005 while Chelsea looked likely to stretch away and have from us, we had Henry, Pires,Fabregas,Vieira,Campbell,Toure,Cole and some Duch kid who scored in the shoot-out at the club. I think we were pretty optimistic that with our increased revenue from the new stadium we would be the best competition to Chelsea (we were 2nd that season)But United have caught and passed Chelsea purely because the club has been so successful off and on the field.
Just a word to those complaining about the starting line-up against Blackburn. We were in three comps prior to Saturday, and I suggest the order of priorities would have been … 1) Making Top 4 and CL qualification next year (essential to attract quality players in summer transfer market) … 2) winning CL to ensure same if we miss Top 4 … 3) winning FA Cup.
With that in mind starting our best XI on Saturday was never on. The players who did start should have been good enough to beat most Premier League teams, and for most of the game were all over this Championship side. That they scored (from a mishit, let me remind you) while we didn’t despite several far better chances created was unlucky. That’s it, UNLUCKY. On another day we could have won by four or five.
I agree that the quality of our striking leaves a lot to be desired and we really do need a fox in the box to put a lot more of these chances away. But they don’t come cheap and we have to have something to offer them (even after a massive transfer fee has been paid and massive salary agreed). To interest that kind of striker we MUST offer them CL football … hence #1 and #2 in my priority list.
That’s not to say winning the FA Cup shouldn’t be a goal, but at the present, given our position in the PL, it has to take third place behind other priorities. And unless you believe our first XI players should start three games in a week (which would be counter-productive), then they have to be rested from at least one of them, and the FA Cup was the obvious one.
So it backfired. Frustrating, but not the end of the world … not mine anyway … and on the bright side it’s three games less we have to play in today’s ridiculously crowded football schedule, which will give us a better chance to achieve what remains our primary objective.
One thing I never hear much about concerns the demands on top clubs with all the comps these days. It’s why clubs have to have not one, but two or three top players for every position in order to compete everywhere. I’d like to see some changes.
For a start, why not make the League Cup for under 21s? Or with just a couple of older players a la Olympics? We’ve played this pointless cup that way for years, except for latter rounds.
I’d also like to see the Premier League reduced to, say, 15 teams.
I’d also like to see CL qualification confined to League Champions only, with Uefa Cup moved up to just 2nd and 3rd place-getters.
Commercial interests will be dead against the above happening, but indifference in the shape of increasing numbers of empty seats will have to be addressed eventually. When I read that even hard-core supporters here are planning to cut back on their attendances perhaps that time won’t be so far away.
Oskar
Hey BtM..thought you were supposed to be playing golf in Fla??
Get out of this bar and onto the course man … you need the practice π
I should add to my previous that the players sent out against Blackburn SHOULD have been more motivated to win the game and make an impression than the first XI players they replaced. Here was a perfect chance to show they were good enough to play in the BIG games. That’s what I expected of them anyway.
Oskar
Haha, golf π
I have not read every post here, however I feel that everyone has written here what has been written on Holic’s blog hundred of times before!
Perhaps for most it makes a good discussion and it keeps the blood flowing and there is a reasonable sense of ideas and explanations why we have been so poor for some years now.
I’m not going to add too much to what already has been said on here it’s fairly pointless given the circumstances on Saturday afternoon! Purely for the numpty time we fucked up again and let’s not deny it, it keeps on happening far too fucking often! Excuse my french (Apologies Ollie)
Lower opposition come to The Home of Football we try and impress but somehow we throw it away by conceding the most ridicules goals ever it’s happened before and sadly it will probably happen again this season.
I’m sorry if I may disappoint a few but the way we have been playing for the past few season there is no suprise one bit. Yes we have made mistakes before but time after after time and yet again after time we do it again! So this tells me one thing someone is at fault here and the worst thing of all is that we have replaced players left right and center and still those mistakes have not been rectified.
Team got booed on Sat and as much as I do not agree with it they fucking deserved every moment of it…. Look at pravda.com no player was even brave enough to come out an apologies to the fans that they have fucked up once again ad the reason fort it is simple.
They have yet again fucked up and Wenger is protecting them, when Man City lost the other day Mancicni was brave enough to say he was disappointed with them and the response he got was the correct one.
It seems our players are in a untouchable bubble by Wenger and that really disappoints me because I believe they never get grief for how abysmal their displays are and perhaps this is something that Wenger is not good at and with the way football has gone in recent years it cobs exactly what they need from time to time!
Maybe I’m taking shyte but I saw the game and for crying out loud saying after the game we did not deserve it in the public eye was not good enough either.
I love Wenger don’t get me wrong but all this belief in him is fading away slowly but surely season after season! He has certainly lost something in recent time and as much as I believe he will pick things up I tend to take it with a pinch of salt!
Time to step and get accounted for Arsene!
No need to be afraid, Snowy that’s why we come here I think and I’m pleased by your interest and the time you took to comment. Lets agree to disagree and may I offer the brand of your choice from Holics bar or a real one next time at The Tolly. Good night.
I would love to Usmanov have the ownership or anyone else for that matter that will invest
the struggle for fans over weather board AW or both are at fault will never be over until the media silence is broken or a change is forced
i would imagine it is easier to change manager than the board,under the current regeim,if ownership was to change would that open the way for the board to change also?
If this were anyone else other than the shit stirrers Sun, I would have cried.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4800044/Arsene-Wenger-set-to-be-offered-2-year-new-Arsenal-contract.html
Given we get so much practice playing against packed defenses, why aren’t we better at dealing with them?
A 2 year extension AND 70 million to spend allegedly.
Anyone else hear the loud bang of the stable door as Dobin is spotted galloping off in the distance??????
Morning.
π
I think the emphasis is on the ‘allegedlly’. Yogi has a good take on the situation for me;
http://www.aclfarsenal.co.uk/transfer-gossip/time-for-the-78s-to-be-replaced-by-45s/
Wondered how long it would be before stories of huge warchests were leaked – Anyone would think season ticket renewal times coming up π
TTg
No it wasn’t a naive point about wages as your point about paying Squillaci was completely unrelated mate… The whole socialist bollocks is a separate issue and something the club are apparently addressing… Basically I don’t agree with any of the points you mention.
I like what Sir Henry says.
TTG: “United is THE only comparison point for us because they are follwing a sustainable route.”
Have to disagree with you on this one, at least partly. Man U are bleeding money left, right and center. Their current spending can not last for eternity, at some point they will have to pay for what they are doing today. yes, I know that from an accounting point of view they make a profit but when that profit is less than what your debts have increased, are you really making a profit? No, you are losing money and that can not go on forever unless someone props you up. This is the reason ManU are in favour of the FFP initiatives, they know full well that they can only keep up with the oil/gas money for so long as things stand today. And while they do have a few promising young players, their key players are all getting on a bit and it will cost a hell of a lot of money to replace them.
“I think United (whose overall wage bill is not substantially higher than ours )”
United have, by pretty much all accounts, a massively larger wage bill than we do. We are talking tens of millions of pounds.
Oskar@208: top work, have a drink on my tab.
Arthur@212: “It seems our players are in a untouchable bubble by Wenger”
These are some direct quotes from Arsene’s after-match presser, according to arsenal.com:
“I think we made a massive mistake on the goal.”
“We were not good enough to win the game, it is as simple as that”
“Not one defeat is acceptable. You are in this job to win every single game.”
“It is very painful and very disappointing to lose a game like that”
“It is very difficult to accept but it happened and we had enough chances to win, but we didn’t. Offensively we lacked ruthlessness and calm in front of goal. We didn’t make enough of our corners, and we were vulnerable on one mistake.”
I think those words speak rather clearly for themselves.
Good article on arseblog today.
And still one lovely horse joke :
that’s like closing the stable door after the burger meat has already bolted
heh
Funnily enough Lars, just this morning on my way to work, and I don’t know why, I thought ‘if people think Wenger isn’t hurt by this defeat and will only have nice words to tell them’, they’re dreaming.
And even if he hints at his dissatisfcation in the press conf, I can imagine he had some stronger choice words to tell them.
That doesn’t mean there aren’t issues, and I think blogs makes some good points, but still there’s so much clichΓ©ing (can I make up that word) in the world of Arsenal-related perceptions, it annoys me.
Arthur
I may be alone in this, but I generally consider it fairly poor management when a gaffer singles out individual players for public criticism.
Mancini seems to do an awful lot of it. Particularly after losing big games which might get him sacked. And I’m not sure it does him much good either- he seems to have fallen out with half the City squad, and it’s quite evident that at least some of them aren’t that keen to play for him this season.
Sure, they smashed Leeds at the weekend, but they could afford to field a full strength XI because – and this fact may be connected to Mancini’s management – they have no more big European games to worry about this term.
To my mind, the best managers throw crockery around behind the scenes, bollock players, make threats and do whatever they need to do to get a performance. But they keep it private.
Public condemnation is for hacks like Mancini and Redknapp. It’s a cheap way of taking the pressure off yourself and putting it on the players.
I think that Arsene has made it clear in his comments that he’s not happy with Saturday’s performance. I would hope he’s taken steps behind the scenes to communicate this to the players in stronger terms. I have no desire for him to give the press an airing of this particular dirty laundry.
What can I say? Once more N7 speaks for me π
agreed N7. no one expects the manager to reveal which of his players are weakening the team.
we at least expect him to do it behind closed doors. the fact that players are not producing what is expected at a club like Arsenal is that we have players of average quality or the manager cant get the best out of his squad of players.
ultimately he picks the team. if passes or shots at goals are miles off thats down to the players that have been brought to the club.
i wonder what reduction in pay (if any) the club will bring in by to balance the books if the champ lge money is cut off next season.
SAF routinely does both. He mocked Rooney so much in the press, about his poor PK ability that Wayne has deferred to his teammates. No, I prefer the ‘behind the scenes’ approach by AW. Read an interesting article about NYY players who were devastated by their own fans booing them at home. Their fans have such a feeling of entitlement, so much so they have forgotten how to just enjoy the game. For them it’s all about bragging rights π One other tidbit, light hearted π When a fan’s team has a really BIG win, his testosterone increases by 37% (fans had their saliva tested after important matches). Die hard fans who might view themselves as socially inept, will get a boost after a really big win and view their chances of hooking up with someone as markedly improved π So I guess that means Manu fans have quite the social life π
Hah interesting fact abb, I have to admit that watching the game indeed affects me more than it should I guess, from watching Arsenal in last few seasons my body produced so much cortisol that I don quite a few grey hair now in my wee age of 26 π
Oh Eandy, a touch of grey will get the gals every time π Females were included in this study as well. Who knew one’s love life depended on your team winning π
Help. The end of the world is night.
Someone retweeted Payton. Which makes me think I would side with Ollie Holt in that particular discussion.
Hey Abb,
Was that saliva test done on quality or quantity ? π
N7@225: spot on, neither ManCity nor Chelsea had the distraction of a massive European game in midweek to consider and it is also worth noting that Chelsea still needed a replay (a replay they were quite lucky to get in the first place) against a League Two team. We also have a must-win game on Saturday v Villa, and as others have said the FA Cup must be made the lowest priority here. You could even argue that in the case of Man City, the FA Cup is the only thing they have left of this season because barring a rather massive injury crisis at ManU they are not going to win the league.
Hey Trev, I see you’re back from Ollie’s neck of the woods π
Lars @ 233
Totally agree. For those attacking Saturday’s team selection, I think you need to choose one of two options. Either:
(i) propose that we do not need to rest players AT ALL between now and the end of the season; or
(ii) identify another game or two between now and the end of the season in which we should rest players, and that would have been preferable (on paper, no hindsight) to Blackburn at home.
More bang-on-the-nail discomfort from Bloggs today.
The captain’s quote about tempo is precisely what he said in the programme notes after the Swansea away game. The one that followed three days after we put seven past Newcastle and everyone thought that, maybe, complacency was a thing of the past.
Please Thomas, if you think our tempo is too slow in the next game, would it be asking to much of you to tell them to “f*cking well speed up a bit”.
Is our captain allowed to speak to the players on the field ?
Why do we have to wait until the next programme notes to find out what he thought was wrong ?
It’s always the same answer anyway.
Have I been dreaming for a week, or is it “deja vu all over again” ?
About a week ago, I suggested that there would be promises of transfer kitties to be spent – without entering that overdone and very boring debate again – as the time for season ticket renewals looms on the horizon. I dropped into the bar this morning to notice exactly that occurrence – I haven’t bothered to check the source but please let this not happen all over again.
I have, once again, craftily manipulated the dates of a family holiday to get me back into England for kick off against Bayern tomorrow night.
These are exactly the games the club relocated for – six years ago, let’s not forget, not last year – so that we could be genuine challengers, not necessarily winners, in Europe’s biggest competition.
This game should generate a literal buzz of excitement and anticipation. Maybe it’s just my problem but my buzz is struggling to overcome my fear of embarrassment.
Anyone going to be under a Brolly tomorrow night ?
Abb, not yet. I leave France tomorrow morning.
These couple of decent pieces have emerged from the mighty Arse maelstrom (think he played right-back for Brondby and Sheff Wed) this morning. If one hasn’t copped ’em already they might be worth a read…
http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/facup/story/will-arsenal-owner-please-stand-up-fa-cup-review-stan-kroenke-021713 β¦
http://goo.gl/hbdrG
One final thought on squad rotation: I actually thought our problem on Saturday was not too much rotation, but too little.
We don’t rotate our players enough over the course of the season to ensure that the second string are kept in form. Players are allowed to simply drift out of contention and then appear suddenly and en masse in cup games such as this one.
Sad to say, we should take a look at Utd to see how it’s done (albeit with a much stronger squad).
Danny Welbeck is their 4th choice striker. In our squad he’d probably have started three or four times all season. In theirs (and don’t forget this is a team with two Β£25m+ front men), he’s probably started about a dozen games, and not just in the Carling Cup. Which meant that when he was called on in the Bernabeu last week he was able to produce a top class performance and grab a vital away goal.
It also means that Welbeck probably believes that if he plays well when he gets a chance he’ll get more game time. He has something very real and direct to play for. I honestly don’t think our fringe players get that sense.
If there’s one thing I’d like to see us address this summer, it’s that we still approach each season like it’s 2001: 16 good players, a few kids and a basic desire to keep playing our first XI whenever they’re fit, unless it’s the Carling Cup. The other teams around us have moved on from this, it’s time we do the same.
That means investing in some extra quality to build out the squad, and then encouraging them to compete – really compete – for places. If someone is on a pony run of form, drop them and let them work their way back in. Regardless of who they are.
Lars, N7,
No problem with team selection here. It’s been done to death.
My problem is with player attitude.
Who allows that attitude to survive in the squad after all this time?
The manager has correctly made generalised statements in public that show he was not happy with the attitude. But if players know they are being rotated into the team for easier games, is it surprising when they treat it as an easier game.
I know they earn a squillion quid a week and should be more professional. For too long, too many of them have demonstrated that they are not. It is, therefore, up to the manager to deal with that. He has not.
The fans know, and probably the players have a good idea too, that premeditated substitutions will be made after about 70 minutes. So the whole issue of “we are The Arsenal and, if we do what we do, we will win”, is coming from the manager just as much as the players.
I desperately do not want to believe that Arsene Wenger has slipped into this kind of inertia, but every other game we play is convincing me that he has.
Ok, happy hat on. One more day en France, and possibly the biggest occasion of the season tomorrow night. π
I would agree with that N7.
Trouble is, our reserves know they are reserves.
That is because most of them are not good enough.
Just had a quick re-read of your last bit, and you are saying the same thing. π
iTrev @240
See my 239. I’m inclined to agree that certain members of the squad figure that, if they’re playing, it must be an easy game.
I have no idea what goes on inside the club, but from the outside it looks to me like the time might have come for a period of tough love (ooh-er).
No more waiting on terminally unfit players. No more tolerating sub-par performances. No more guaranteed spots in the first XI. Pressure on all positions, from the keeper to the centre forward. More rotation, so that everyone is kept in the mix. And (ideally) a willingness to cut our losses earlier when it becomes clear we’ve signed a player who isn’t up to scratch.
I don’t know if any of the above will happen, but if we have more money now it should make the whole thing a little easier to apply.
Also: I would file our current approach to squad in the same drawer as the “socialist wage structure” experiment.
It was very noble to try to grow a squad who would come up together, who would be collegiate and egalitarian and who would be treated fairly and given patience.
It hasn’t really worked, bar a few individual examples, and now it’s time to move on to something a little less high minded and a little more focused on results.
Think we cross posted there N7, but, yes. And @243.
Cheers AL, two good links there.
I have decided to cease posting forthwith, my presence in this bar is so obviously surplus to requirements.
Uncannily, all my thoughts are rifled from my brain, without me even noticing, and posted here by N7.
Yours
*The poster formally known as zicoinexile*
PS – So long fellas and thanks for all the, erm…… haddock
Trev @ Heh thanks for that. That Wolfie needs a slap. Turns out this writing your own reviews malarkey isn’t as easy as some make it look! π
And right back atchyer for your piece. You’re right to think I thought the same re Hyundai. Much as I find the comparable with football specious (see Snowy’s excellent post, she said it much better), in as far as there is any comparison, then it is all about the product.
Hope you had a good break.
SteveT @196 Ta, and spot on.
At last ….. π
That was at zico. π
Trev @193 I meant to say.
Right, just time for a backdrink.
one last
formally = formerly.
PS – Fuck off Trev. π
No Zico at this joint = π Zico on his own here = ;). Zico + Ollie = π The New Maths.
Nicely said Amy:
http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/facup/story/will-arsenal-owner-please-stand-up-fa-cup-review-stan-kroenke-021713
itrev: “no probs with the team selection here” (Saturdays match)
Errr…. well there is here. Is it to much to expect that we put our strongest team out? Subs can be introduced if the match has gone to plan.
And then put the strongest team out for the next match? and so on.
Fucking resting players that haven’t played all week is taking the piss.
They do love fabricating a story, but for what its worth:
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2013/02/18/3760824/wenger-wants-dein-back-at-arsenal-as-crunch-contract-talks
Perfect at 242 N7.
Trev, I believe Wind will be breezing along in the Tollie tomorrow.
Slight difference in appreciation, Mts, but we’re not resting players who haven’t played all week, we are resting players who will play on Tuesday π
Or perhaps (I’m not a big fan of it, but it looks like we in England are at a slight disadvantage in that regard) we should do after all what they do in some countries and play on Friday when we play CL on Tuesday (that’s what Bayern did for instance).
N7, well said re rotation.
This posting thing is easy.
Agree with N7> submit > repeat. π
Austrian @177 – Lovely stuff and spot on.
Faustus @185 Good stuff, and you’re right, there’s always hope. It ain’t over until the fat lady sings, and at the moment, she ain’t even started her pre-concert nine course meal. Bring those Germans on!
Ttg @191 – Nice post. Sorry to hear you may reconsider your association with The Gooner. Sounds like that publication needs as many good guys on board as they can find. Given that you know Mr Whitcher, I hope you have a word with him about his at best ill-advised piece. It was a disgrace from someone who presumably should have known better.
And @202 – I have to say that my own personal recollections of that FA Cup Final in 2005 are much more in line with what Norris had to say. A sense of relief that we’d won for sure, a feeling that it was payback for the Cup Final vs Liverpool that we had somehow contrived to lose certainly, but walking away from the ground in the rain that day I do remember a strong sense of anti-climax at how we’d played and the manner of winning on penalties. Far better to win than lose in that way of course, but anti-climax nevertheless. I certainly never thought that that game heralded a new dawn for Arsenal. Quite the opposite in fact.
As regards Man Utd’s finances, I still think there are interesting times ahead for that mob when PurpleNose wanders off to his vineyards. Agree with what Lars had to say @222. Their wage bill still dwarfs ours.
N7 @225 – Spot on.
Eandy @229 – Grey hairs in your wee? at the age of 28? Sounds serious mate π
Cheers for the links AL.
Preferred the Amy piece to the one in The Independent.
If there’s one thing this season had taught us its that we don’t win any game easily. We struggle to beat teams in every game we play whether its the league, cups or CL. So the prospect that we afford to rest any players to win a competition is folly. We don’t have the squad depth. The CL may be a more difficult trophy to win – but it is far more important that the FA Cup from a football, financial and while weβre on the topic, from a branding perspective too. Having said that, nothing can excuse the attitude and arrogance of the players who nonchalantly turn up and think that teams like Blackburn can be turned over easily.
I’m not going to wade into the Branding discussion but suffice to say I think that both viewpoints from Tabs and BTM are relevant and not mutually exclusive of each other. It is possible to develop a brand without the requisite results because itβs not a precise mathematical formula. Taking an extreme example look at the development of many of the Cigarette Brands in the past before they became regulated. Smoking actually kills people but that didn’t prevent Brand development. (And I donβt make this point because youβre a smoker Tabs ;-)) The point BTM makes is relevant – Brand development means more money which facilitates better players @ higher wages and gives us greater chance of success. But I feel Tabs is right too in the sense that most fans don’t care about brand development when the team capitulates on the field or is noticeably under strength when there’s money in the bank. Or that the football should always come first and the Branding will look after itself. While of course success makes it easier to develop a brand I would argue that itβs not in itself a single panacea. Many teams have had recent success and are still nowhere near the brand strength that Arsenal have cultivated so far even without winning anything! When people generally think about Arsenal they think about open play, intricate passing – entertaining wengerball – which has become the general label or “Product” at the club. This is down to Wenger. Now of course, we havn’t done that for quite a while because amongst other reasons we’re trying to rebuild having lost seminal players. And unfortunately, there are other things we’ve become famous for: the soft underbelly, the defensive indiscipline, capitulation and the inconsistent attitude of players on the field. This, I feel, is down to Wenger too..!
I don’t buy the line that buying players is the solution. It might be part of the solution this season, but over the past number of years we’ve had players who, on paper, were as good as any other panel of players in any other team in the PL. Its not all about money and buying players – just look at the farce that City / Chelski are and tell me investment is proportionate to success or that they provide even a fraction of the entertainment we’ve done over the past 8 years?
I think Trev is so correct when he keeps bringing up the attitude and questioning the mental strength of the players. And on that note I’ll quote a piece I read earlier from Tim Stillman that is difficult to ignore:
“We`ve had new captains. We`ve had new coaching staff. We`ve had new owners. We`ve had new players. Nothing changes. But there`s one common denominator.”
There has to be some harsh introspection. Arseblog recited wengerβs quote this morning: βMaybe they still thought: βOK, weβre playing at home against Blackburn, it will be difficult but we will win the game anywayβ, but it doesnβt work like that.β
Motivating players is one of the essential jobs of management and that statement, if true, is a pretty damning admission of failure from the manager!
Hahahah tabs, that really made my day π
Joe,
I hadn’t seen Tim Stillman’s piece, but I did say exactly the same thing after Blackburn.
Since the 2008 collapse everything has changed except one thing. I don’t want that thing to fail, but the options are running out fast.
If Arsene Wenger thinks a story about him extending his contract is harmful, rather than positive, does that mean he’s finally coming around to the idea that he should leave?
It just means he called things as they are: there is absolutely no point in that sort of bollocks in the press apart from stirring shit.
Heh, I have only now realised that Liverpool vs Swansea was a League game, not FA Cup (of course we beat Swansea in that competition…), the English calendar really is a mess, isn’t it?
Therefore, I am very angry at Mr Laudrup.
If he had wide support for a contract extension, that news would be a big positive and nobody would have a problem with it. The fact that he, and his supporters, think that putting such a story in the paper is going to cause trouble is a clear sign that he knows he is losing the fans, if he hasn’t already lost them.
It’s all but over. Sad, but never mind. NEXT.
Trev,
The Stillman piece:
http://www.arsenal.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=533357
@267: I don’t agree at all. Arsene is not an idiot, he understands that there is a lot of debate about his position. He knows just as well as you or I do that news of him extending his contract at this point is bound to further polarise views and this has nothing to do with him thinking about leaving or not.
Alright Joe, a very fine piece Sir, much to agree with and bits I’d take issue with.
I agree that the two arguments re branding are not mutually exclusive. In fact the very first thing I said in the debate was
“Iβll go along with you that sadly βbrandβ is a necessary evil in the glutinous commercial world of The Premiership, and that money needs to be spent in order to promote, foster and nurture it. In short, that Arsenal need to βup their gameβ on the commercial side.”
However where I differ, and will continue to differ, is the notion that a Football brand is in any way analogous to non sporting brands, even that most sporty of products, the good old cigarette π
I would agree with you that winning is not a single panacea, but as you say winning makes it all a hell of a lot easier. Winning is ultimately “the meat”. Those teams that have been recent winners, Chelsea and Man City, do not have our brand, not because they can’t match our Wengerball or our comfy seats, but because we have a starrier history of long past and recent past success. Winning is all. Product is all, and every day that goes by where they are seen as “winning”, and we aren’t, they get a little closer in terms of brand.
Brand is the fluff on top. If the cake is stale, it doesn’t matter how nice the box is in which it’s presented. People won’t buy the cake again. Spend the money on the cake, and before long you’ll have so many eating the cake, the lovely box with the red and white ribbons begins to make sense.
Anyway enough from me! Snowy said it all so much better! π
As regards the playing side, I genuinely don’t know what to make of it all at the moment so haven’t said anything about the game on Saturday. I felt ‘Holic got it all spot on.
Clearly there’s something missing and has been for a while – belief? depth of talent? attitude? – I don’t know. I feel Tim’s quote is a tad simplistic, although I recognise that I’m reading it out of context and I haven’t read the whole article.
Saturday was grim, and perhaps forms part of an increasingly familiar pattern, but at the end of the day cup shocks do occur. Everybody suffers them. That we have had to wait 16 years for an FA Cup exit to lower league opposition under Arsene still says a lot I feel.
Ollie @265 – Well said.
Lars knows
Tabs
thankyou for your kind words. I am worried that the club will suffer idf the protest is not channelled in the right way. i am writing to Kevin outlining the danger of what he is espousing and if necessary I will write something on Online Gooner to say this. the trouble with that is that you get all the flotsam and jetsam from Le Grove and the like getting way too nasty (which worries me not a jot) and generating much more heat than light (which does concern me). We don’t need any more hysterics from the nutters .
But having heard a large part of wenger’s press conference todaty I was very disturbed by what I heard. He was all over the place. i really do wonder if the pressure is proving too much for him. The team owe us all a real go tomorrow night. frankly if we lose giving everything and play as well as we can reasonably be expected to I shall not cavil at the result. But if we fail yet again tio stir every sinew I will feel really let down.
Sadly even my arch nemesis Adrian Durham and the loathsome Stewart Robson were making sense today which makes me worried that either I am losing it or there is something much more wrong than we believe.
The key thing is not to lose the love for the club that means so much to so many of us. It will still be there long after wenger and I depart and i want it in rude health for future generations to enjoy. It needs to change but that change must be constructively managed
Ttg,
Fair enough, I understand your position re The Gooner. Tricky. As you say, anything that gives a further platform for the flotsam to rant and rave might be best left alone.
As regards Arsene’s press con I can’t comment as I have only seen one tiny clip.
As for agreeing with Durham and Robson, no worries, you’re clearly losing it mate! π
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5aDcpDSwlo
You aare losing it because that pair of cunts (Durham & Robson) have not, do not and will not ever make any sense about Arsenal.
Chin up lads! Guess what, it’s the end of Monday!
That can only mean three awesome things:
1. The beginning of the working week is almost over.
2. It’s been long enough since Saturday for the minions of Sauron to slope back to the shadows and lick their wounds.
3. A mere 24 hours till Bayern time!
#3 genuinely excites me. Reports of the END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT (a.k.a. crashing out of the cup) appear to have been exaggerated and we’re still alive so that means we can grab some cold ones and get stuck in tomorrow night.
We’ll probably get dicked, someone will probably commit a proper howler to give them a gift of a goal, we’re probably going out this round, but then again…
….maybe NOT. It’s a midweek Champions League knock-out game. It’s glitzy! It’s glamorous! It’s exciting! Anything can happen!
Come on you reds! Let’s ‘ave ’em!
My only surprise re: the press con is that Arsene didn’t jump over the table and start chinning people.
God knows he must sorely want to, having to spend a sizeable portion of his working life being publicly baited by half wits.
Whatever he does after a defeat, they’ll slate him.
That’s the spirit CG.
Jesus, if you can’t get excited about Bayern at home in the Champions League, what’s the point in following football at all?
COYG
So @264 no.
Just watched the Press Con.
No problem with it at all. AW clearly angry. Fine by me. I have no idea how he usually presents such a calm exterior in the face of such asinine questioning. Healthy to let the mask slip every now and then.
I’m with N7. He should have lamped ’em.
AL π
I was glad to stick my head in the bar and see the regulars are all here.
Well, at least the regulars who have an original thought. ( anyone seen that Zico dude? π )
Well done everyone. A respectful debate and points well made.
Arsene is obviously still seething underneath about what is going on. Is he to blame? I am sure he is and knows it. What none of us knows is how much is placed squarely at his door. I am beginning to think more than I would like. The other issue is the amount of pressure that is building on these players. The body language of the players is changing. They are getting their heads down and thinking to much. Instead of letting the game flow, they are not wanting to be the one that makes a poor pass or poor shot. It is a bad place to be. We need a player that will take a leadership position and push the players out of this rut. I just don’t think we have one at the club right now other than Wilshere. What we lacked on Saturday was that attitude. By the time he entered the game we were behind ( almost) and had played for 70 minutes without any desire. It’s hard to flip that switch at that point.
Also I am in full agreement with the above that our backups have no belief in themselves and their ability to push on and get some games. Rosicky was our best player on Saturday and he was the one that got hauled off. That sends the wrong message. Arsene has his favorites and he needs to open his eyes to what’s going on out on the field and react instead of having preordained substitutions.
Cheers
“I’ve been accused of not taking the FA Cup seriously. I won the FA Cup four times. Who has won it more? Give me one name,”
Classic Arsene.
As for the Blackburn game, I ‘v read too many opinions about the team selection, and not starting the best 11. Once more, if you cannot start Gerv, Chambo, Diaby, or Coquelin at home against Championship side, what is the point of having them in the squad. As someone previously said, the problem is not the rotation, it is the lack of it.
And finally, starting your best 11 is no guaranty of winning the game, as we saw against Bradford in the League Cup.
Anyway, that game is in the past. Put the things in perspective. Considering what teams left in contention (both Manchester clubs, Chelski and Everton) maybe it is better for us to focus on what is more important for us as a club in general. The game tomorrow.
We are underdogs and they have better squad, and defence that is yet to concede a goal in 2013.
Do they look scary? Absolutely.
Am I scared? Of course not.
To be honest I can’t wait for it.
Roll on the Bavarians.
Esso
I was tongue in cheek as both of those individuals make it their business to abuse our club.
when I come to power Durham is the first one I will shoot .
The actual issue is that Wenger’s performance today made it hard to defend him against his most vociferous critics. Robson is a frustrated nobody who has obviously been upset by being dropped by the club. Add to this Myles Palmer who loved Wenger enough to write an arse-licking (and very average) book about him but now abuses him at every turn.
But today’s performance was worrying. Saying you will only speak about tomorrow’s game and then refusing to speak about Bayern Munich wasn’t a happy sign.
Funny how people expect Arsene to take all the insults/criticisms on the chin while they themselves get touchy at the slightest, percieved, insult on their intelligence.
Tabs,
I rather like the football/brand analogy again – made it all very easy to understand. In fact, a piece of cake.
While Arsenal are tarting themselves around the world trying to get a slice of the action, whipping the cream of our Austrian Gooners into a Viennese Whirl of excitement, sticking so many fingers in so many pies that Sir Chesny no longer has anything left to catch the ball with, there is no time left to practise defending our box.
I think that’s what you meant anyway. π
Trev – Haha, indeed, to a tee. π
With a take a bow on top. π
Hello all.
It’s taken me quite a while to catch up, as I left the computer a short while after the full time whistle and hadn’t returned untill late this afternoon, many great posts and some I wish I hadn’t bothered with, but that’s the price I pay for being a drink a holic.
A sensible debate from some of the regs and the usual bile that you only ever see from those that only choose to come when things are bad. Gents, everyone is intitled to their opinion and sometimes I even agree with what you are saying, but it just comes over as bitter if you only choose to vent your spleen when we lose. If you’d come around every now and again when we win, because contrary to popular belief we do actually have some good times, then your opinion may carry a little more weigtht and be given the time it may very well (or not) deserve.
Just saying like.
Anyways, dissapointed as I was at the result, shocked I was not, this was a banana skin waiting to be trod on, the warning signs were there and I’m most angry at the fact that we didn’t heed them and once again were the architects of our own demise. I posted not long before kick off;
All eyes will be on us to win, we are massive favourites and these situations always makes me a little uneasy, we have a long history of succoming to the underdogs and I donβt want today being another chapter in that horrible book. If we play our game we will win, but we musnβt be complacent, we wonβt win just by turning up.
Why didn’t they listen to me, why, WHY WHY!!! π
Seriously though, I had no problem with the line up, bar one player who regular readers will know I think shouldn’t be anywhere near an Arsenal shirt. This team should of won and if you played the game twenty times then they’d probably be victourous on a large percentage of the time, but yet again when it mattered we faltered.
I wouldn’t say we lacked effort or were particularly lethargic. I thought we gave it a go but it just wasn’t working, it was definetly “one of those days” but there’s more to it then that I’m afraid.
Our inability to change tactics in game is really quite worrying, we all know what Einsteins take on insanity was, yet there we were again and again running into the same wall. I thought the subsitutions were badly timed and reeked of being preconceived with no real looking at what the game actually needed, and to throw on three at the same time smacked of desperation.
I think it’s time we stopped blaming players or bemoaning the fact that we are short in some areas because quite honestly I don’t think that’s our problem. Our problem (imho) is that we are tactically naive, way too rigid and have in no shape or form a Plan B. Look at our corners, once this season we scored from a corner that looked like it had been hatched in training (OG V Wet Spam), time and time again it looked like it was just a hit and hope ball into the box, no great movement, no real plan.
My biggest gripe was the substitutions. Why would you take off the only player who was getting anywhere? Rosicky looked as baffled as I was/did. Diaby was not at the races and OG was woefully alone and ineffective, yet we pulled three players and swapped them for three in the same positions, ok maybe a higher quality of player, but still the same tactics that were failing miserably before their introduction. If you’re going to change things up, then be bold and change them, we did not and it cost us the game…….again!
I’m not going to pretend to know what the solution to these problems are, but I don’t think it’s David Moyes.
WE had an ‘interesting’ exchange regarding Moyes in the pub on Saturday.
Ask tabs.
Can’t be arsed reading any of the long posts though π
Agress on Subs, H2H, I found them baffling, especially doing 3 at once.
Not that it should have mattered that much in the end, really, if everybody played to their ability.
By the by, Glad to welcome Top Man Snowy in to the Horse before Cart Movement. #FootballB4Brand.
I agree Ollie.
But on the other hand, ability is nothing without guidance and direction.
tabs and larra, you have mail. 8)
Did anybody mention that not only was Wind’s haircut to blame, but also tabs’ ? π
Tsk.
Weakened Utd side tonight. Ferguson no longer cares/he’s lost the plot/he’s disrespecting the cup.
Let’s hope he doesn’t get irate with some journalists or we’ll really know he’s a shadow of his former self.
News for ‘holic: Di Canio leaves Swindon.
24 hours before new (yet unnamed) owner comes in.
Strange timing that.
zico, are you daytripping or staying over on Saturday?
Ping!
Well lets revert to long balls and set pieces and long throws.
In that spirit, I lob one deep.
Master lurking, Lurky.
Perfect timing to make me assist, H2H π
And now I see lurky did the deed in proper lurk mode π
NorCal wants to reverse I think, from the tabs’ glory position.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21492663
Man City: I’m the best manager in England – Roberto Mancini
Sorry signiori, you’re not even the best manager in Greater Manchester.
Thanks H2H, and Olliesque assist as usual.
So, you suggest managers fault @289, H2H?
Because if you do, you have my vote there, at least for this last game. Tactical naivety, lack of plan B, same formation for different opponents, preconceived substitutions, lack of motivation, etc.
H2h, just imagine the media reaction if Arsene said that, even back in 2006.
Massive heh at 305 π
I can’t even remember if I said goodbye on Saturday, snowy. Even though I was rather sober.
NorCal @288 – Heh π
H2H – Those subs did leave me baffled, both in the timing and the personnel.
Ollie – Haha, I’d forgotten about the “Moyes man”! Strange fellow π
And of course, what with Holic’s curries and my haircut, and Wind’s haircut, the Arsenal never stood a chance! π
Camberwell/ Lurky – Excellent Calls to Arms. Come on Arsenal!
I can’t remember either Ollie. Clearly neither of us was pissed enough π
Here’s my take on the Arsenal as a brand, particularly regarding posts made by BtM and snowy.
First of all let’s put this out of the way – yes, the Arsenal Football Club is a brand. Then again, what isn’t a brand? The answer is any generic products/services/goods. So why is Arsenal a brand? Because we play under the name Arsenal, we are not a bunch of nameless players playing football for a randomly assembled team with no name. Therefore the Arsenal is a brand.
So what does the Arsenal brand constitute? This requires an understanding of branding as a concept. For any brand to exist, there must be a product/service/good that’s in offer. And at the heart of it is what’s called the core product. It is what essentially defines the brand. So for Arsenal, the core product is our football and how our players and manager do on the pitch. We are a football club after all.
Reaching away from the core product, we have what is called the extended/augmented product. This constitutes anything else that exemplifies a touchpoint between the brand and its consumers, besides the core product. It can be anything from this list: the experience of watching football at the Ems, the seats at the Ems, the toilet at the Ems, the food, the Arsenal website, the Arsenal merchandise store, the players’ twitter accounts, Arsenal’s commercial agreements with third parties (eg. Citroen), the Arsenal jersey, how the players look and what they do off the pitch — the list goes on and on.
So to finally touch on the point BtM made, that as long as the Arsenal brand continues to rack in revenues we are doing okay (not great), I’d have to respectfully disagree. At the very heart of Arsenal FC, what we offer is the core product of our football. The players we have, the manager, and how they all perform on the pitch under the Arsenal brand. This is not to say that the augmented product is not important. It is vital for the success of the Club. One just has to look at Manure and how well their augmented product is helping the team stay competitive. But that’s all there is to it. The augmented product is only there to augment and help support the core product, not in any way to replace it.
Herein lies the problem with our beloved Arsenal. When the Invincibles enjoyed their time in the sun, we were offering an unmatched core product that was very satisfying to consumers and fans. But the augmented product, namely the ability to generate commercial revenues from our footballing success, became detrimental for the Club’s longterm sustainability and competitiveness. To put simply, our augmented product could not keep pace with the success of our core product.
Since then the Arsenal Board have put great importance in achieving commercial success and generating more revenues. Ticket prices have increased, yes — but we are being offerred a different, and arguably better matchday experience at the Ems Stadium. Most recently we have also been trying hard to increase commercial deals, and leverage the Arsenal brand to global supporters in Africa and Asia. One would have to admit we did not do a good job in leveraging the success of the Invincibles outside the pitch and into these promising, global markets.
However, the concerning thing is that improvements to the augmented product of the Arsenal brand seemingly comes at the expense of our core product. There seems to be an under-investment in the team, and performances on the pitch have sufferred. Consumers and fans are therefore left unsatisfied.
This is not to say it’s all doom and gloom. Investment and success on the pitch will do wonders for customer satisfaction and the value of the Arsenal brand, which again depends largely on its core product. A continuous neglect for the core product, however, will see the Board’s efforts at improving Arsenal’s augmented product prove fruitless.
Apple is a brand largely modeled for its success. And as much as people are lauding Apple for their marketing and branding strategies, we need to remember that at the heart of Apple products lie its Operating System. The Apple branding and marketing communication strategies are mere augmentations to help sell the product. If, for example, Apple sells products with rubbish OS that continues to fail, they might get people who buys because they are swayed by marketing. But these consumers won’t be satisfied, and they might not stay as Apple customers for long. This is the fine line Arsenal is currently walking on.
haha snowy! π
306 Lurky.
I’m afraid so. The buck stops firmly and decisivly at him this time around. If this was a one off, a freak occurance, a fluke, then you could just shrug it off and use the age old adage of shit happens. But this is clearly not the case as far too often we seem powerless to break down teams who park the proverbial. Tippy tapping around will only get you so far, sometimes something else is needed and that’s where we fall short.
Perhaps overall we faded little bit in the second half (of the pint glass) Ollie
π
Heh. And that bloody handbrake when you’re drinking. Nightmare.
π
Handbrake? when you’re drinking? What is this thing? π
Derrick – Fine post.
Ollie @ 299
Not day-tripping – arrive Thurs AM but business in the way till Fri night and then have to get 19:45 back from Gatwick on Sat night.
Just caught H2H’s @ 292 – always been there, just quietly π
Done a bit of a speed back drink, some great posts from the regulars, especially on the subject of the presser today. Thank goodness for some perspective, because frankly to read that time thieving bollocks aggregator that is News Now, a casual observer would have thought the Boss had just shot an old lady’s arthritic border collie in the face.
I’m wholeheartedly with the N7/tabs axis of ‘he should have chinned/lamped the wankers’
π
Good man snowy π >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ah right, I see. Tight schedule after the game then!
At least you get the meeting in before the drinking this time π
Oops, forgot to say great post Derrick. Last para spot on. Absolutely ace.