A Brief Reflection On A Bad Night
Sep 16th, 2014 by 'holic
“It was pressing, and counter-pressing, and perfection… In the centre midfield it was perfect.”
Jurgen Klopp reflected on his team’s utterly deserved 2-0 triumph and yet study of those words will tell the story of the night. Yes, Dortmund had pace, power, desire, and an incredible work ethic. Arsenal produced a little bit of the former, and nowhere near enough of the others. Yes, Dortmund were very, very good, but we certainly allowed them to look it.
What can I say tonight to dispute that? Nothing. Other than, of course, it was one night. Taking a step back from the bitter disappointment of the evening we find ourselves three points off the top of the group with five matches to play, three of which will be at home. Think about that for a second. Our first competitive defeat in fourteen Premier League, FA Cup, and Champions League fixtures straddling the close season. Hopefully it will serve as a massive wake-up call and not prove to be a portent of another miserable season ahead in the big away games.
Let’s hope this increasingly expensively assembled squad will reflect later this week on just why there was a collective lack of effort and execution tonight. We have used such performances down the years to develop a ‘this will not happpen again’ attitude, most famously after a five goal beating at Stoke in our first double season.
Let’s hope we analyse the twenty-four Dortmund chances to our four and identify those in midfield who allowed their men to run at our beleagured defence all night. No names, no pack drill, but what should be as good an attacking midfield as there is in Europe folded tonight, giving oxygen to the argument that we should have done more to secure an out and out holding player in the summer. Yet this was not a performance that would have been made better by one more signing. This was a performance that would have been made better by making more of an effort to control the ball and the pace of the game. The collective failure to do so should not be laid at the door of individuals.
I’m in danger of turning this into a rant, and that is not what most of you who come here expect. I don’t mind us getting a schooling tonight if we use the experience to ensure it isn’t repeated this season. We have what we have in the squad for another three and a half months before we can add what may be missing. I have no doubt we will play much, much better at Villa this weekend, and against Tottenham next. I will next see the boys in the flesh at Stamford Bridge a week later. The fear tonight is that another tough away test could prove too much for this squad.
Don’t let it be so, Gunners, It’s time to show some cojones.
322 Responses to “A Brief Reflection On A Bad Night”
Nothing to add
Thoughts from the previous drink:
I think some perspective is needed. We just lost 2-0 in the opening game of a tricky group we should still get out of, to a team who 15 months ago were a whisker from winning the Champions League. Sure, 2-0 was a fair scoreline, but football is a game of fine margins, and if Welbeck had nabbed that goal just prior to Immobile’s it would have been a different game….
My sober reflections are:
1) Bellerin was ok. He won’t be playing teams of the calibre of Dortmund each week, and I think in conjunction with Chambers, they can lock the RB position down till Debuchy’s return.
2) No injuries.
3) Probably at the top, top level (i.e. the difference between 1st and 3rd in the EPL, or last 16 and last 4 in the Champions Lge), we’re lacking real physical authority in midfield. But you tell me a cast-iron player available, who would come to Arsenal, and who would definitively improve on Arteta (I can think of Pogba, but we’re talking fantasy buy now)…
4) Mertesacker is on the wain.
5) Wenger should only play 2 from Ozil, Wilshere & Ramsey in those two advanced CM positions ahead of Arteta, and he needs to let proper wide-men (Sanchez, Walcott, Ox, Cazorla) flank Welbeck up-front. Ozil is not an especially effective right-winger, and it smacks of Wenger trying to accommodate players, rather than picking the best team to suit the formation.
6) It’s imperative we now beat Villa in terms of momentum/morale. 9 points from 5 games would still represent a good return in the lge, we can then rest the first-teamers v So’ton, and come back fresh for that big run of games v Spurs, Galatasaray and Chelski pre-Interlull 2.
I understand the theory behind minimizing rotation to keep a stable core that can play our telepathic football with least disruption — but sometimes it feels Arsene takes that approach to beyond its logical extreme.
Are TR7 and Cazorla so much of a drop in quality and ability to play our style that they couldn’t have started today in place of two midfielders who had a bit of off day over the weekend in Rambo and Ozil? TR7 is perfectly suited for high-tempo games and I would say even at this ripe old age he is the best pressing midfielder we have and would have offered a real support for Alexis in the second half. And he can pass as well as anyone in this team except Ozil at his best.
We were pressed to the milliseconds of receiving passes and we needed someone who can really wiggle out of small spaces and has fabulous close control, wouldn’t Santi have offered a more suitable alternative at the start of the second half?
What is the point of having a deep squad if we are not to use it unless being forced by injury?
Dortmund had nearly the half of their starting line-up missing but the replacements had no problem playing their inimitable style. That was not a that talented — at least on paper — Dortmund side but they just did everything with a higher degree of concentration and athleticism.
Nice write up ‘holic…
And agree with the sentiment of your last paragraph — we need to grow a pair. Sharpish!
‘hol if ye see me talkin
more shite than usual
zap it
would ye
i know
ha ha
more?
my pointless contributions
embarrass me de fuck
when i read back
bla an stuff
yeah
stuff
Colourful afternoons seem to have been shaded by the awful cloud lingering above the Arsenal seems live every season is the same??
breakfast every morning? Is my way to the school club any different?
Are these players not getting enough of their want?
That was fairly dispiriting to watch, and I’m understating the case here.
I’m still struggling to work out how they managed it so that almost every single time we had the ball our players were instantly pressed by 2-3 of them. It felt like nobody had time on the ball, not once throughout the game! All of our play looked hurried and flustered, which to be fair I guess it really was.
Sad to say but we looked horribly out of our depth tonight. This lot need to get their shit together because it’s time to start playing some proper football.
fact is we are far away from being decent because from ARSENE
WRONG EVERYTHING
cba,
you make
perfect sense
to me sir.
😉
he is a good guy but not for us anymore
transfers maybe
thats it……………..
ATG: Sounds like you’re in need of tequila. There’s a slammer at the bar with your name on it.
CBA: And a Guinness for your good self
fuck sake is no one talking any notice????????
Easy Arthur. It’s one game mate, for now.
MATT OK
I PUT MY HEART INTO IT!
SORRY HOLIC
‘holics, on nights such as tonight, please remember to refrain from using post numbers in your drinks.
Thank you.
Not needed Arthur. Hope the family are well, mate.
Measured delivery Guvna.
Work to be done by the squad.
Time for a stiff one for the rest of us. Might need a few.
My other half calls is too weak!
🙂
the 5 wee dogs
(sounds like a shite skinhead band)
are roarin
calmed down now
theyre a scary wee pack
lose a finger or a nose quick smart
We cant keep making excuses for this side.Wenger got the money he wanted and failed to address our squad properly.He keeps telling us how an out and out striker wont fit our system but let me tell you this,Diego Costa or Radamel Falcao would have worked wonders tonight.It is baffling how Wenger keeps blaming his players for not being clinical enough and still he wont spend on a decent striker,it is a paradox but everytime a journalist asks to the question of a real attacker Wenger strts sulking.Lets not get started with our defensive midfielders,deary me,the one slower then the other.The defense short two players already etc.It is hopeless management and testament to what Wenger think is a solution is all wrong.
Danish Gooner – Falcao would have worked wonders tonight? So paying Falcao over £300k a week would have been feasible now?
To be fair we’ve started the season poorly but as long as CBA’s in the bar there’ll be a reason to have a giggle.
…with you not at you mate!
cheers ‘holic
try not to pollute
i fail
exiled meself
in the past
cos i dont wanna bring
my occasional bad temper here
cheers ‘hol again
top man
NIGHT GUYS
Nothing to add, H. Cheers.
We created a few chances but we could have conceded a hatfull if Dortmund had been able to finish. We do have decent if not great defensive midfielders – Arteta, Flamini, and Coquelin – but we only play one at a time and the rest of the midfield doesn’t defend when we lose the ball ( and they all lose the ball regularly in bad positions) and our full backs press high up the pitch so we get overrun at the back time and time again. Ozil is the worst – but Wilshire, the Ox , Cazorla, even Ramsey are not much better. We need a bit of discipline. At least Sanchez and Wellbeck do their share.
Had a bad feeling beforehand and didn’t see the game actually, but I can respond to that challenge.
http://www.channel4embarrassingillnesses.com/video/how-to-check-yourself/how-to-check-your-testicles/
COYG. 🙂
cba
good stuff
really, really abysmal.
again, we appear to have no plan, and the scoreline was flattering to us as they probably could easily have had 6 or 7.
espnfc has said it better than i
http://www.espnfc.us/blogs/74/post/2037910/miguel-delaneys-three-points-on-borussia-dortmund-vs-arsenal
i truly feel we will be utterly smashed at stamford bridge. we have quite a few of the wrong players and some in the wrong positions.
it looks like my fears about welbeck’s ineptitude may turn out right, and we’ll be ruing the fact we didn’t buy remy who can at least score goals.
can i set one up for bath ?
will meet you
in “the usual battle” sir
eventually
Top Man
(homebrew scream plus rhubarb juice)
sounds shite
but
thats me favourite drink
is it too late to add uply and the sweeper
if ye’s don’t like it
gimme back the cash equivalent
ungrateful so and sos
@JG
spot on. we push our fullbacks way too high and then get destroyed. this will happen again at the top teams away when we do it again as we did last year.
sorry, but the tactics are suspect.
cba I will sign you up! :0
night all 🙂
positives to take away from this game?
well, kos and sanchez can hold their heads high i would say, and we do have potential to do better if we actually try to change up the game plan based on opponent and location.
14Matt (2)
ATG: Sounds like you’re in need of tequila. There’s a slammer at the bar with your name on it.
Cheers fella!
you are too perfect Matt (2)
ARTHUR
cheers big man
yer another reprobate
i will meet!
GOONERS ALL
I will sign you up!
😀
cba
JUST because
we have got tonked
we will rest on our laurels…….
are we ready for the fight?
it seems scruz did a runner and the rest will follow suit
Dreadful. Done like a dinner by a team missing at least four players who would walk into our present side.
Back-drinking…
Öskar
night all all the gooneres sleep tight !
oskar i hope you will find positives 🙂
Very sensible approach from the Guvnor in this piece. He is the most measured of observers and a good example of how a proper Arsenal supporter reacts to adversity. Frankly I have strong views on what needs to be done ( and what will be!) but on a night like tonight I’d rather let my views stew in their own juice.
Constructively speaking I think there is pretty general consensus that our midfield needs a double pivot as we have little pace and power there and we need to protect the back four. Our full backs keep getting caught in no mans land and we lack incisiveness in the final third when we are not dominating possession. I think Welbeck , Sanchez and Walcott will cause huge problems for teams this season but we either need to play Ozil in a central role or leave him out.
We didn’t do enough in the window to solve the issues we have and by Christmas it will be too late. We have to make the best of what we have available. It’s disappointing but that’s life
Fair write up ‘holic and rant we’ll curtailed.
A mild one from me is difficult to hold back though….I’m much in agreement with Gregoire and Matt Foley….
….A very, very poor and sloppy performance and I have to say, I’m not surprised even though Dortmund had injuries a plenty with their top top stars.
Here are my interpretations of the problems with our side:
1. We have only one player with pace in the middle triangle consisting of the deep-lying ball playing midfielder (Arteta, who’s legs have gone and was never a DLM in the first place) and the two central defenders (Kos & Mertesaker). As I’ve previously said, I do not in any way like Mertesaker as one of the central defensive pair in the big games as he’s far too slow and lacks any form of recovery pace or aggression when he anticipates wrongly against world-class attacking players. It’s not his fault now, it’s just life! With Arteta in the triangle, and Flamini to a lesser extent whose legs have also gone to some extent, it’s suicide when you’re playing against an awesome, pressing and counter-attacking side like Dortmund. It’s painful watching. The legs of Coquelin should be tried here with Chambers and Kos.
2. The full-backs never ever recover well when they both go forward together and when the ball is lost against even the most average sides, nevermind the great. Less gambling or a quicker DLM is required (cf. point.1).
3. We have far too many forward-moving, creative players within the midfield and not enough conservative grafters, if need be, to support them and let them express themselves. That leaves us open to a major lack of responsibility when the need to sit and grind away the pressure. Is called for, as tonight.
In summary; unless these combined and repetitive issues are addressed, we will beat most teams we play against but we consistently will not beat the great teams when it really matters.
Ozil HAS TO PLAY in the number ten position in this side to allow him to be freely creative as he’s our most sublimely talented and experienced player by a mile in that CAM role. Jack is still improving and they should be rotated if need be. “OZIL IS THE BEST NUMBER 10 IN THE WORLD; even Maureen said so at Madrid! He played well for Germany on the wings in the World Cup because his defensive responsibilities were well shared by the other midfielders behind him and his corresponding full-back, but for us, he MUST PLAY CENTRALLY behind Danny Welbeck.
Defensively we were very, very poor and Bellerin was not to blame; some good moments going forward that would have been less exposed with the better, deep middle-triangle as expressed in point.1. Hopefully the wee lad will use it in the right way as a learning point.
Onwards and upwards to the weekend at Villa but serious man-management and formation issues have to honestly be addressed by the management to deal with another competent counter-attacking side.
COYBG!
i watched the game on radio
wee telly broke
so wont see the game
probably ever
wouldnt anyway
🙂
Cheers Holic.
I need to sit on this.
My gut feeling is, as ever, overwhelmingly positive. Down but nowhere near out.
But in a maelstrom of unhappiness your words are a balm.
Thankyou
also TTG@48- measured and enjoyable. Cheers
Dapper DanC : As many of us have been observing here for a while, we cannot play the way we want to play with aggressive possession game in the opposition half with both fullbacks offering width and nominal wingers cutting in and overloading midfield without a fast and athletic presence at the base of the midfield who can diagonally cover the counter-attacking runs down our flanks. Arteta was nowhere to be seen for our first goal when Immobile kept on running. It is not his fault that he is 32 and never really was the fastest player.
The first goal we conceded against Man City had this same problem, simply being overwhelmed by pace down the flank. That day Monreal go blamed but even a much faster candidate in Gibbs couldn’t do anything about it.
There was a hope that despite the absence of such a player Arsene would have found a tactical solution around this problem, at least until we get a player like that, and I still hope that he will soon.
If there were enough defensive covers Chambers — and this is a point Lurky had mentioned a few times — would be a good candidate to step up for the very very key role at the base of the midfield.
@DDC
nailed it with mertesacker. he is slow-paced so we can’t press high, and he needs cover at the back. and since mertesacker needs cover, koscielny needs cover if you get my meaning. if these two need cover-and this is beyond the most basic defensive midfield work that every team must do-then the fullbacks can’t bomb forward like they do time and time again. this MIGHT work if both centerbacks were really fast and we had some defensive midfield nasty person, but we don’t. so we can’t really press high, and we should be bombing forward as there are too few as was said who actually, you know, defend. and this isn’t against a “counter-attacking” team, this was against THE counter-attacking team that has loads of speed all over the field. while watching a bit of the game at the pub (snuck out of work for a little while), a neutral noticed the trackstar-like speed of aubameyang, which was amazing when he almost caught scezny with the ball at his feet. even the mighty bayern munich was pinned back for the first half of that champions league final a year and a half ago. but bayern won the game by gradually holding the ball more and passing while dortmund ran themselves to death. this is what we used to be good at, and now we don’t even seem to be able to do that. i will say that with tactics like these, i’m not sure that any player additions would make us materially better; it is down to a lack of planning and inability to change our game. frankly, i think too many people, including the manager, are far too comfortable at this club; we don’t have anyone who is particularly scared of losing other than when it means losing out on a futile champions league run. we are so overloaded up front with a couple excellent, some good, and some mediocre and poor players, and so thin at the back regardless of quality. very excited we got sanchez as he looks the best buy we’ve had in a very long time, still think there’s hope for ozil as he clearly has the talent, still excited about chambers, pleased with debuchy. ospina was a great pickup as well, but we still lack more than 1 or 2 key talents that will make us competitive with the better teams. all this is assuming that we buy well and decide we’re going to change our game plan occasionally.
Dr F @53, I concur; a double on my tab. Be sure to be wearing a cravat when you pick up! 😎
As long as we keep playing with an attitude that the ball will always be ours (we had more possession than Dortmund) and we think we are a better side than anyone and do not have to adapt to their tactics or style of play, we will always be playing catch up in all major completions or staying static as they adapt to us.
Chambers, as you say, has to be given a run in DLM sooner rather than later with either two of Ozil, Ramsey or Wilshere as the Box to Box and number 10 tripartite.
We always seem to lack the necessary balance and collective-positional discipline against the very best teams which is perennially suicidal. We will have 5 or 6 games every year like this unless Arsene starts thinking tactically about our opponents. That’s where his stubbornness is most frustrating and irritating to me. With the ball we are stable but without it we are always vulnerable and on a knife edge with a critical mistake waiting to happen just around the corner when we are attacking.
Up the Arse!
bedtime.
when you are tired and drunk paragraphs do make for an easier read.
I am sure I have missed good points just because I am in no state to plough through blocks of prose.
Fortunately, on this occasion, the rubbish I spout is shortlived.
Nighty night, Gooners
Matt Foley @54, good stuff fella and I agree on all your points!
A cravat wearing double for you too! 😎
Did I hear somebody say stubborn? Yep that’s the word I was looking for. An excellent coach he is, but Wenger is just plain stubborn. Keep playing ozil on the wings and we will keep getting murdered. Why not try the Coq in one of those DM roles, at least he has some speed. Am just done with the excuses.
Matt Foley @ 54: We actually did a fantastic job on a super Dortmund side a few years back (1-1 away and then a home win). Last year too we rode our luck a bit but was more organized and matured about our approach, and Giroud did very well to hold up possession to bring the midfielders joining in. Last year whenever we had a good result it ALWAYS involved great defensive maturity from the entire team, I think instead of continuing on that humility we have become complacent and imagining that our attacking firepower alone would see us through (the fault-line of the Cesc era).
The team needs to find a balance.
Gala and Anderlecht drew, that means if we win our three home games and one of Gala/Anderlecht away we will be through. Whether we will top the group or not then will depend on if Dortmund drops away points other than at Emirates as I don’t see the losing at home against the Turks and the Belgians.
Hopefully lessons learnt from this match.
Diabolical performance. One comforting point. At least we were not disgracing ourselves wearing our red and white strip. To try and avoid any recognition on return journey recommend the team scarpers back to London wearing womens’ clothes, flying cargo and make sure they drive home in unmarked cars. ( Might even want to divert plane to Glasgow and betting on a Yes vote seek political refugee status.)
“I could have sworn Arsenal were supposed to play today.Silly me, must have got the date wrong.”
Back-drunk now, and it’s pretty much all been said.
Their 7 shots on target to our 1 says it all. We STILL need a striker who can shoot straight, as we did last year.
And our defence is equally suspect. That Dortmund only scored 2 was a miracle plus the timely interventions of Jack and Ox of all people saving two more.
So we STILL need defensive cover, as we did last year. Or at least get babyChamb into Per’s position and save the BFG for easier games, cos he’s out of his (considerable) depth against speedy forwards.
And for those pointing out this was a weakened Dortmund let me add that we beat a much stronger Dortmund in the corresponding away fixture last year. Which suggests we are going backwards at a rate of knots. As if that wasn’t already obvious from our other six Premiership and CL qualification matches so far this term.
Something is wrong in the state of Emirates.
Öskar
Good point about the strip, Pierre. When the game started I automatically supported the yellow team’s efforts. In fact I cursed loudly when they missed an early chance, before a close-up, and … oops!
Öskar
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20140916/wenger-on-defeat-defence-and-wilshere
on Wilshere…
Jack Wilshere has turned his ankle, it’s difficult to say how bad it is because I am a bit cautious, normally it’s not very bad but because of his history I’m a bit cautious. Apart from that no player I took off was injured.
—————
Oh Noes… we’re losing midfielders now too! 🙁
The Wenger Out cries are pointless because he’s going nowhere so we have to look at how we improve. Some very sensible comments on tactics from several people particularly Dapper Dan and Dr F. Frankly we often have comments that suggest it is inappropriate to criticise tactics because we’ve never managed a football team but so much of the observation draws on key weaknesses . Infuriatingly too we continue to sustain injuries. Any injury to Jack’s ankle is of concern but we hope for the best although he could be rested for Saturday without too much of a problem. A bigger concern was that Dortmund played at a pace we just couldn’t match or handle. Only in the Everton game have we looked the fitter side and certainly on Saturday we were hanging on at the end and looked knackered and tonight were blown away. Shad we await the fruits of your labours….asap.
As fans we have to follow the admirable example of GSD rather than purely use this board to slag off Wenger. He often infuriates me as much as he delights me but he usually has a method in his apparent stubbornness although it is often hard to divine. So I will continue to cut him slack although it must be said that at CL level managers like Klopp often appear tactically more astute. I do wonder about how much influence Steve Bould has. We are still poor defensively at set pieces, we get caught continually on breaks and our tempo can be overridden by teams like Dortmund. We haven’t played consistently well for ninety minutes this season but we have to hope that a wise though stubborn man appreciates why
easy up arthur@45. I had to work (a meeting just as halftime started…). just getting to read these drinks, haven’t had time to wade through the previous bar.
have a bottle of żubrówka on me, na zdrowie!
holic said it well, and I guess missing the second half wasn’t the worst time for me today. they were the better team, the more intense team, and apparently the fitter team. hopefully we won’t carry a hangover to the villa game.
A good nights sleep and a pwopa brecky to cleanse out the Guinness have soothed my angst. A result in isolation that isn’t terminal, but a performance we have been watching away for about 5 years was a genuine blow to morale. Can we go further than before doing the same thing with Sanchez added?
I think Holic gave a good write up, particularly in highlighting what comes ahead. We are entering a run of fixtures that have te potential to turn a slow start to a disasterous one. Wenger is persevering with te same basic template as last season. As DrF said above, very well, by pushing our fullbacks up and leaving arteta to hold alone with the two centre backs we are putting unusual strain on the weakest part of our team. We get rolled again by the chavs it might be time to stop looking for excuses and say that the system needs changing. Hopefully the club figure out a way to fight through and make it work.
Failure to use the squad completely baffles me. It’s been said above, but we have Wenger-ball stalwarts like TR7 and Santi fresh and ready and he is pushing Rambo through two games in 4 days after he was rushed back from a rolled ankle with wales? Ozil is off form. The Ox looks crisp whenever he can get on?
Anyway. Fight fight fight. If we dig in and scrap our talent will have a base to win from. I’m not ready to give up on this team yet, but they really new to start winning over the next three weeks.
#Ron and proud
Klopp says : “We didn’t let Arsenal impose their game and this only happens when you run a lot.”
And to run a lot you have to be really fit. My take is that we are not fit enough to run a lot due to the fact that we have too many games in too short a time.
Whilst it is good to have skillful players, it comes to naught when they can’t do it day in and day out.
To rectify this we should get a deeper squad, while some backups may not be as good as the first team players, they should be at least competent and fit enough to play to the game plan.
As it stands, our backups will probably be playing due to the number of injuries already acquired, let’s hope they are fit enough!
Bellerin on the whole did not do too badly, despite the fact that this is his first major test. (I put it down to being fresh!)
So it’s up to Shad now, to prove his worth and get our players up and running. (Or we could get backups/replacements up to speed – More Depth in Squad!)
If we do not do that, am afraid we’ll almost always pick up injuries through overplaying and fatigue and will be short when the time comes regardless of which top players we have and we do have a few! Needless to say that this situation will not bring us more trophies.
Let’s hope it’s rectified soon!
Up The Arse!
“It was one night. Taking a step back from the bitter disappointment of the evening we find ourselves three points off the top of the group with five matches to play, three of which will be at home.”
Absolutely. But I don’t think many of your readers are listening, Holic.
A woeful performance, no one can deny. But the bleating is so loud that I stopped reading as soon as I saw the first ‘Wenger Out’ and noticed that the perennial bleater Danish was drinking. Haven’t seen him for ages because we haven’t been beaten.
Will be at Villa, Saints and Spuds games but won’t see you at Chel$ki I’m afraid. Love to watch this great squad and excited to see some superb young talents gel, mature and grow into a powerful force that can add to the TWO of FOUR domestic trophies already sitting in the cabinet. Managed there by the best coach in the business.
Stroll on.
It was like that old saying goes “men against boys”
It was truly awful to watch, I know it’s only one game but to go down in manner is rather embarassing for a club like The Arsenal.
It keeps on happening it happened last season against the top clubs in the EPL as well let’s not forget that. Trying and hoping we will be better but it never seems that way. So who is at fault here?
Players not committed enough? Arsene deploying wrong tactics?
Every season we come back to this same old shit it get boring after few seasons too!
Wenger out, Klopp or Simeone in period!
Anyways I will be firmly behind then against Villa and the rest!
I do hope we can improve and we need get our fitness sorted out!
Up the Arse!
Here is a first…
When I can’t get out to the pub and am forced to listen to a poor Arsenal game on the radio, the TV highlights then go on to show that we were not as bad as the Radio pundits made out.
Unfortunately last night we were actually worse than they made out…
Win Saturday we are 3 points off the Prem lead despite our slow start. With City at home to the Chavs, we could stay that way. Opens up the possibility of a derby win that raises spirits and means we go west with a chance to go top of the league.
All to play for.
It was ANOTHER woeful performance, BTM (#73). We haven’t put in a commanding performance yet in 4 Premiership games and 3 CL games. Bleating about it is perfectly justified.
I don’t get it. The squad is much better fundamentally than its performances suggest, so WHY aren’t they performing? Is something wrong at the Ems?
Öskar
Bleat on, OT Dog. It seems to make you happy. You omitted your Ozil bleat from that post. Unusual.
@73 BtM
Well said.
“Wenger out” in mid September after one defeat in five months and having just won the FA cup?
Embarrassing.
Certain sections of our support would appear to be as bollockless as last night’s performance, which is to say very bollockless indeed.
Looking for a response on Saturday, and a break from the bleating. We’ve not started the season particularly well, but you’d think we’d lost every game the way some people bang on.
COYG
Out-thought & out-fought last night. Thankfully the Dortmund strikers were woeful as well otherwise the scoreline would have been as embarrassing as the performance. There was little positive on display from our team except what a warrior we have in Alexis. When he “lost” the ball, he chased back every single time, something our other midfielders could learn from! In games like this, the team needs to be set up more wisely ( yes I’m looking at you Arsene).
Onto Villa Saturday. Looking for a reaction from the team and let’s show the Villains that their current position is false…..onwards and upwards.
I have very little to add to what I have skim-read above.
We had had a slow start to this season, last night did nothing to turn that around.
My main interest, indeed probably the only contributions I have read in full, has been to observe the superb technical sniping of one specific poster in whose drinks an admitted ‘time for a change’ bias is always disguised by initial praise that softens up this reader before moving on to destruction presented as ever-so-reasonable constructive suggestions. I wonder how much of this exists only in my fevered imagination. If there’s any basis to my perception, I really do take my hat off to you.
Roll on Saturday, at 3 o’clock even! Whatever next?
COYG
Said it before, say it again:
Its just not possible to expect a team to be purring smoothly when you bring in so many different players and change the formation.
It’ll take time.
There are many positives – but we’re just going to have to be patient.
No excuses for last night. A terrible night. As Holic says, it’ll be fine if we learn from the experience.
Some of you may enjoy this. Seems timely.
If…
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on Le Prof,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
‘Midst calls for Arsene Wenger to be off;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
For trophies, glory and the golden days,
If you resist the drive to tiresome hating,
And ignore every single word that Le Grove says:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves who slate Mesut Ozil,
And listen to all the bollocks that gets spoken,
But resist the urge to respond with an earful:
If you recall this team and all its winnings
And when they lose you don’t start talking toss,
Keep calm and start again at your beginnings
And never stoop to slagging off the Boss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To back the team long after they are done,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
And say to those who coat the lads: ‘Jog on!’
If you can talk of DMs and keep your virtue,
Or question Per—but keep the common touch,
If watching Welbz miss sitters cannot hurt you,
If you’ve plenty of faith, but never quite too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving blog space
And keep the gloomy feelings on the run,
Yours is the Ems and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Gooner, my son!
Not necessarily an enjoyable read given the circumstances, but I thought today’s Arseblog was excellent. A system that isn’t working with player show aren’t playing well in it, in short.
Support every game, all game, with everything you’ve got. Praise and celebrate when it goes well and the opposite when the team doesn’t perform. Sadly today is the latter. Too many people either with an agenda or looking to find agendas when it is just as simple as calling it as you see it. Even after a loss though, the joy and positivity of Arsene’s Arsenal pokes through.
UTA
I think a lot of Wenger criticism arises because he is so unique in the game. Someone who has devoted a large part of his life to making our club better. The way he goes about it can be excruciating but as we have observed many times here there is MUCH more good than bad. The frustrations come because we seem so close. But we react well generally to setbacks and let’s hope this is a wake up call not a knockout blow.
Wenger out advocates are going too far at this stage if the season. Every manager has his critics and after eighteen years you accumulate many more than the average. He frustrates the hell out of me but so does the missus and I wouldn’t swap her !
Hopefully he rests Ramsey this weekend, if he wants to persist with Ozil, play him in the his preferred position. Bring back rosicky, he should be fresh enough. What ever happened to rotation? as early as the season might be, we must get 3 points to keep up or else this season won’t be an easy ride at all. No more excuses, if we have to change tactics, then do it to accommodate the type of players we have. Where is Diaby anyways????
Sometimes and i say this with a lot of pain, there is a sense we are actually not that good as we all hope to be. Yes i love this team more than my life but reality does bite and even though i am not saying this based on a one off performance like yesterday, there is a sense that it is all to familiar.
We knew how dortmund will play, we knew what to expect, we probably had our first 11 baring the the right back and still we were absolutely run over.
Losing is not the point, of course you are bound to lose, but losing as an abject surrender is alarming considering the fact that we are among the big clubs in the world.
I am not even sure if there is any team worth its salt who are afraid this of Arsenal. I am sure Villa and Agbonlahor will be saying bring it on this sat. We can of course beat them but then where is the fear, where is the sense of respect?. I really do not think any team out there will say of god its Arsenal.
My team has flaws and so does every other team in the world. My team has for me the greatest manager i have seen in my life and will probably see us well. Yet the failings seem predictable.
Nice boys do not finish first. We are that nice, sweet talented team who are bullied out by the big boys.
Can we rectify it?. Its not as bad as that but then if you were to tell me a team of Ozil, Sanchez, Ramsey and Jack cannot string together 3 decent passes, then there is something basically wrong. They cannot be so bad, can they?.
I do not know who to blame, nor do i want to for it is to early of the season and i still hope and believe that this team is far better than what they appear now. I just feel the pain. The pain not because of any high expectations, but more so because even simple ones seem to be not met.
Come on Arsenal, Remember who you are and who you play for.
The game has moved on and so should all of the team and the manager. Yet the sense is the transition is taking far to long or we simply are not good enough, time will tell.
SanAntonioGooner Diaby is collecting his pay cheque 🙂
Vinay – frankly there isn’t a team in the Premier League right now who inspires a fear factor in any other team, and I’m including Chelsea in that.
dunno ’bout you lot
for the 90 mins
all bets are off
roarin shoutin cunt callin
is the order of the day
wee while after too
if i’m honest
but i never descend into
fuck him sack that shoot the other
the day after
the arsed household knows
when “The Boys from Highbury’ 7”
is stuck on repeat
its celebration or desolation
and best left alone
but
i always emerge from the wee back room
happy as larry
ready for next weeks delivery of
red and white roar
played it already this morning
A-side too
mind you
thats to the tune of rule britannia
so unless american tourists stopped and listened
to the words as they take their pictures
their perceptions of donegal would be warped
not just by the eejit in the red and white scarf dancin
anyhoo
howdy all and cheers
UP THE ARSENAL!
n7 85
tis a rosey glow in me bosom i have , sunshine
cheers
*sniggers*
*said bosom*
I know I was calling for heads last night and I shouldn’t have gone that far! It was the manner of the defeat that really got to me.
However as expressed above by many why send out your players in such tactic that doesn’t obviously work. We couldn’t even beat sorry arse Leicester away imagine if Dortmund went there, there would be nothing left to pick in my opinion.
It amazes me and really pisses me off at the same time, one day like on Saturday we played with passion and didn’t allow an inch on another day we look like a Sunday league outfit. Where does it come from?
Arseblog is right it’s up to Arsene to put it right he’s responsible for his team if they don’t perform. Surely the players we have a capable to stringing few passes together?
where’s wolfie?
mmmm
now there’s a twist on a popular book
but
seriously
WOLFGANG!!!!!!!
no one here is man enough
to fill yer heels
put down that singapore sling
and mooch back
go on
go on
go on
( typing in stereo for öskar )
to be sure indeed now grand so
😉
N7 @85 – that deserves a special mention of it’s own.
I still don’t know what to say – and what not to say about that performance ………..
jeezirlou
can’t hang about
we’re burnin’ daylight here
i scored the ton
FUCK OFF
all me
(proper tonner)
Yaaaaaayyyyyyy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
etc
punt
Thanks cba, sweet pass
Chezzas fault was that
that and sloppy defending
No defence in the world could have stopped that killer pass from CBA11
glad i scored it though
the big ton
the one zero zero
i am
The Greatest Striker That Ever Lived
and
no mistake
RESULT
yup
what a goal
just off
to comb me eyeballs
cheerio ‘holics
money to earn
toodlepip 🙂
N7 @ 85: That is an wonderful anthem for the Stoic Gooners Club . And you being more of an Epictetus and less of an Antisthenes.
Reading the finality and inevitability of doom implied in some comments, it is worth remembering that we had found a tactical solution to our defensive problems towards the end of the 12-13 which we had used last season quite consistently and which had contributed to Szczesny’s — in addition to his own performance, much vilified as he is recently — Golden Glove in PL.
So we will find a solution this time too, most likely erring on the side of conservative fullback play or double pivote at the base.
When Dortmund visits us, we should show no niceties, no considerations and no mercy.
In case you haven’t seen this:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29235968
[ But Guardiola said none of his stars would be moving to Old Trafford.
“They don’t have enough money, I am sorry,” said the 43-year-old Spaniard. ]
Ouch!
I wrote a long response to Panglossdroid’s earlier comments about criticisms of Wenger couched in seductive tones. I pressed the button and then went through a tunnel and the note was lost. I think what I said made an important enough point to try again!
I consider myself to be a relatively left wing observer of Wenger and see no tension between being a wholehearted supporter and someone with strong opinions on what we can do better.
Wenger is undoubtedly one of the great figures in the development of our club, arguably the greatest and deserves huge respect and thanks for what he has done. Most especially I admire his willingness to undertake management of the club in the transition from Highbury knowing that it would be hard to compete with the very strongest and richer clubs. His vision and sheer commitment to our cause marks him out as a very special manager and person. He has many gifts as a manager . He believes in the purity of an attacking game which at its finest is breathtaking, He is a great spotter and nurturer of talent and he is a wise and decent man. He will be incredibly hard to replace.
But and there is always a but he does have faults and idiosyncrasies (not the least of which is his inability to zip up a parka ) he can be tactically naive , often leaves me feeling he has not done enough in the transfer window ( in the last one he brought in great talent but still left us critically short) and I believe he can waste players in the wrong position. I cite Arshavin and possibly Ozil in this regard. By the same token he can spot new opportunities for players positionally
Ike Lauren, Henry and Petit which transform their careers.
Does the ability to see both sides of a manager mean you sit on the fence or you are a balanced judge? As fans it is our duty to support the club unconditionally during our matches but not to desist from constructive criticism when analysing where we stand at other times.
I expect an Arsenal manager to be someone of integrity and ability but expect that he will inevitably have faults.
We will rue the day Wenger leaves us but by the same token we must plan for that contingency. Any future Arsenal manager will find his shoes incredibly hard to fill . I find it hard to imagine many potential successors who combine all the qualities that Wenger brings . Ironically Klopp might be a possibility but I am sure on Dortmund boards there would be detractors. I have a friend who has been a Manchester United season ticket holder for 50 years and is thoroughly underwhelmed by Alex Ferguson.
But if anyone feels that supporting Arsenal means a tacit acceptance of everything the club or managers do I violently disagree and suggest their emotional investment might be less than a lot of supporters. I suggest Untold Arsenal is the site for you
TTG @ 110: “As fans it is our duty to support the club unconditionally during our matches but not to desist from constructive criticism when analysing where we stand at other times.” Agree wholeheartedly!
And here is the truth, if Arsene were to be read some of the constructive criticisms — or the gist of those — he would most likely say, “Yes, that could be the reason, but it could be also these others etc….”. He has never been a cultist, and has been open to ideas, as many of his more free-spirtied interviews in the Arsenal magazine or in French publications demonstrate amply. He has never claimed to be infallible or perfect.
A comparison would be say the great orchestra conductors: sometimes a performance, or even a series of performance, doesn’t live up to the standard and sometimes the reasons seem to be obvious. The regular symphony goers and critics point those out without ever having to disrespect the ability or history or knowledge or genius of the conductor.
To ask us to silence our own abilities to rationalize and discuss the source of evident problems in something we adore is to ask us to be stop being human.
An example of constructive criticism (from last season) from a fan’s perspective:
http://www.7amkickoff.com/2014/will-the-real-arsenal-please-stand-up-against-man-city/
110 – spot on mate.
@110 TTG
Hear! Hear!
N7 – great post in the mid 80s above. I salute you!
And AW doesnt play MO “on the flank” as the popular diatrabe goes. This is a myth that has taken on a life if its own.
AW himself said that he has given MO freedom to roam and play wherever he wants. Now think back: when MO was signed – he was “brilliant” everyone cheered – exactly b/c he finds space the way few orhers do. He floats like a butterfly, stings like a … Well, you know.
Surely AW makes mistakes. His handling of MO isnt one of them. Now lets all stop acting like suckas and accepting the manure the meedja is shoveling. MO isnt the team savior – and hardly blameless for that embarsaament last night. But perspective holics.
It is high time methinks that Rosicky had a start. His directness and toughness would be welcome.
And i too think its WAY to early to declare this Arsenal side dead and burried. A lot to play for yet.
Dr. F thanks for a helpful note which is very much in line with how I feel fans should react.Its hardly worth having a forum of this type if all you ever say is I’m not worthy to criticise someone of Wenger’s experience or ability and agree wit everything he foes. As you say the man himself is fair minded. When we were all despairing of Fabianski and Almunia I sat next to Bob Wilson at a dinner. He had been at the training ground in connection with his charity and Arsene called him in to ask his opinion. Apparently he has a number of sounding boards around the training ground .But at the end of the day the buck has to stop with him. Any maker of big decisions finds himself in that position and consensus management isn’t really practical. I think a man of his intellect and personality appreciates constructive challenge. As manager of Arsenal you are certainly going to get it!
Foes = Does
The TTG auto spell strikes again!
Been quite busy at work today which was a good thing as that left less time to stew on the rather less than stellar performance last night. I assume pretty much everything has been said already (not back-drunk and fear doing so will only make me relive the game again so will skip that) so let me just say I hope this was not a precursor of what is to come.
Right, back to trying to forget the game ever happened!
A Wenger is a coach who is loyal to his players . Others would buy and replace soon he see someone better , player is just a commodity you pay and soon replace if you don’t like it anymore .
This is the essence of Arsenal and of A Wenger , very often it is frustrating to us . But it is the way he is .
Thanks TTG.
Homer, yesterday’s match was the perfect occasion for TR7 in terms of his strengths and abilities. It would have also had an emotional resonance to him — he may not get a chance to play again at one of his favorite grounds where he is still considered a hero — and he always raises his game for a big occasion (as his stellar performances in NLDs demonstrate).
There was a great interview by Klinsmann about the best managers he played under and he had cited Arsene as a big influence from the Monaco days. He pointed out that to facilitate the growth of a key player or a particular formation for the long term benefit Arsene is willing to sacrifice a match or two in the short term. I think we will see less of TR7 and Santi this season as Arsene works on getting the best of Jack-Rambo-Ozil-Alex combination work as that is the future, which he is right about.
This is most likely TR7’s last season with us. He remains my favorite player in the Emirates era — after a certain Catalan had left — and would be great to see him end his career with us with one of two big ones: PL or CL.
A rare combination of quality, class, commitment, professionalism and dignity. Not many players like him around.
Dr. F – Cheers to that!
doctor fau
do me a favour
n7 genius post
yer pseudo bullshit
“look at me”pointless intellectualisin’
is embarrassingly transparent
and
tedious beyond belief
let yer hair down
iffin ye have none
let yer scalp down
fuckin ell
i’m yer biggest fan
but ye do my fuckin nut
118 – doesn’t read like that to me. Enjoyable, interesting posts.
Trimming of MNB (funny how he returned the first defeat after winning the Cup. No, not funny. Pathetic) means the most apt of posts gets you your goal cba 😉
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no speech ready
ner fuck all
.
*FLASH BULBS A FLASHIN*
.
“I owe it all t……….
…
…
….
🙂
el p 119
103 ?
*gags*
cheers ‘hol
i’m having chicken an chips
this evening
cheerio
Top man
dinner on
cba — I am not you and you are not me. Let us leave it at that. Finding others’ opinions or eccentricities (and some of us are rather eccentric, no?) as tedious is rather tedious in itself.
How about that for an ” intellectualsin’ “? 🙂
*breaks wind*
124 – no idea what that one meant, but I can say it down the pub now like it’s mine 😉
Piri Piri chicken
Not breaking wind
Have some decorum
🙂
*breaks windows*
Most times cba = tedium.
Just my view.
But keep on
keeping on, cba.
You’ve endeared herself to the inhabitants of this establishment.
Somehow. (insert smiley face)
– herself
+ yerself
🙂
wanna hug , peaches?
Sure. Hugs are always welcomed.
Especially after a long travel day.
I don’t actually think you yourself are tedious, cba. I don’t know you. Your comments, tongue-in-cheek i’m sure, can at times register quite high on the “Tedious-Meter”
heh at cba 🙂
Gervinho is sure playing like a mad wizard for Roma. Still don’t believe we gave him enough chance in comparison to some of our past and present players.
The irony, SAG, the irony.
He has this erratic style, he causes so much havoc in opposition defences because not only they have no idea what he is going to do next, but also he himself does not, at least it looks like that.
I am glad for him that he is doing well, but frankly, would not swap him for any of our current players.
Decorum. Must be one of those single malts you chaps are always going on about. 😉
I wonder if Citeh’s fans are making quite as much of an arse of themselves tonight after their team’s defeat in Germany as ours did last night? Calling for Pellegrini out and throwing their rattles out of their prams? I suspect not. They’re probably reflecting on the fact that, like Arsenal, they hold two of the four domestic trophies.
Maybe they have a blogger offering some degree of cool while the bollockless hordes are calling for heads and offering:
“It was one night. Taking a step back from the bitter disappointment of the evening we find ourselves three points off the top of the group with five matches to play, three of which will be at home.”
And Chelski, a home draw against a lesser German outfit? Booo, Bleeeeeat, Mourinho aaah? Their fans are probably handling it more maturely too – even though they won f*ck all last season.
Funny old world.
Gervinho is a very exciting player when he is given just a bit of extra time on the ball. Serie A suits him perfectly well whereas with us the problem often was that his decision making with little time on the ball was very erratic to say the least.
Man City lost to Bayern away, outplayed convincingly at least based on stat. And the blue scums drew at home to Schalke. PL is losing its quality in comparison to other major leagues?
Bergkamp’s The Man is really the man.
BtM, you are the Man, indeed. 😉
BtM, auch aye big yin! Well said! Up the Arse!
Doctor Fautus,
I think his decision making has improved greatly though. He can be erratic sometimes though. It’s like the more expensive the team is getting, the emotion seems to be disappearing too. I hope not, COYG, we are the Arsenal.
In all of this the people are most concerned about are Arsenal fans who wrote or were preparing to write long ass posts extolling their perceived virtues of Maureen, his Chelsea mob and the oily Mancs had any of those teams won tonight, how are they going to sleep tonight with all that bile held in?
DapperDanC, ttg, Dr Faustus – good analyses above.
Holic,
I admire and envy your ability to attain such perspective so soon after such a shocking performance. Sharing your positive spin on the outcome, on this occasion, is more of a test.
Three points off top spot in the group we may be, but there have only been three points at stake so far. We have only lost once in the last fourteen games, it’s true, but we have only won two in the last seven.
I have followed the Arsenal long enough to have learned how to come to terms with defeat, upset and even the odd heartbreak or two. Somehow, though, last night’s performance was a worry. It’s not defeat to one of Europe’s top teams that bothers me – it’s the manner of it.
Apparently, playing in the Champions League is THE thing that matters most to the best players. So having fought and scrapped so hard to qualify for it, how is it possible for an entire team – Alexis and Szczesny excepted, – to put in such a sloppy, lacklustre, tactically inept display.
It may be that fitness, or probably tiredness, is an issue for some of our players. Dortmund had fewer players involved in the later stages of the World Cup than we did, but they also seemed to have about three more players on the pitch than we did.
To quote from the report – “We have used such performances down the years to develop a ‘this will not happen again’ attitude” – but it does happen again, and again.
Last night was like watching a compilation of the worst of our ‘bad days at the office’ from recent seasons. – last season’s away performance vs Liverpool and last Saturday’s late equaliser conceded against Man City, Bradford away, Blackburn at home, Tottenham away (0-2) ….
And the worst thing is that we simply do not learn – the same shortfalls in the squad – the same lack of physicality to stand up to the top teams – the same catalogue of injuries, and they are not all down to chance – the same defensive mistakes – full backs stranded too far up the pitch – a defensive midfielder out of position and lacking the pace to recover – players standing static, offering no movement or angles for a pass out of trouble.
No daft calls for sackings here, and I will be back supporting as loud as ever next game, but if our higher quality squad is to break it’s duck on the domestic and European leagues, something does eventually have to change.
Immediate conclusion from Week One of the CL is that German club football is very strong and there are no easy games against German sides. Hardly surprising when they are world champions.
Less convinced about Gervinho. I watched him for two years and never quite worked him out but he has unpredictability which at the highest level can work in your favour. Nice to see him doing well I wish the lad well
cba @various – 🙂
Excellent post from BtM. Earlier SAG posed the question”How do the same team go from almost beating City to play like shit.”
Having returned from Dortmund a few hours ago, I believe that the answer to that question in part is that the excellent team performance in that game took a huge physical toll on many of our players. I was concerned before the game, mainly because of the post match interview with Kompany. I was very surprised by how physically drained he was after the game compared to how he generally comes across in post match interviews. With the benefit of hindsight, we may have been better off starting with Rosicky, The Ox and Cazorla in midfield.
From a brief check, I understand that Schalke have taken one point from three league games and lay in 16th place in an 18 team league. From the radio commentary I had on in the background, Fabregas fouled an opponent before scoring. Dropping points at home against a weaker opponent, surely Mourihno Out calls should follow.
City lost tonight against Dortmund’s main competition for the Bundesliga title and are in no better position than us.
While we were very poor last night against a very good Dortmund team who had an easy win last weekend, there is no need for a meltdown. We have a good squad of players, that will be further improved in every transfer window.
It seems that the German teams have relatively straightforward fixtures prior to Champions League fixtures and maybe the Premier League should plan their fixtures to give the best opportunity, in terms of scheduling, to the teams competing in Europe to put us in the same position as the German teams.
One other point, apparently Gervihno is doing well in Italy and scored a couple of goals this evening. His confidence was destroyed by the Boo Brigade based on their opinion that he was shit. Their current targets seem to be Sanogo, Ozil and to lesser extent, Welbeck. I hope that none of these players are forced out by such abusive conduct.
We were poor last night but there are still 15 points to play for. It seems to me that the worst result this week was that of Chelsea.
Joeos – good, interesting stuff. Thanks.
Further to Joeos excellent points, scanning the early reports of the Bayern v Man City game, am I the only one to be surprised to read that Citeh (2 shots on target) were not, apparently, completely outplayed by Bayern (8 shots on target, 58% of the possession) in the way we (1 shot on target) were by Dortmund (7 shots on target, 44% of the possession).
Maybe you are right Dr. Faustus, and it is really PL losing quality comparing with Bundes and Primera after all.
However, who cares about what City or Chelsea are doing. We have our own problems to solve. So, we better start solving them, one by one, because there are
We have one win in last six matches! That is one big problem there. Can’t remember when was the last time that happened. How about start winning again and then talking about titles won in the past.
Just a reminder that, all the talking about the title they won just a year before, did’t help Manchester United to finish more then the 7th place last year.
We have, decent players but an unbalanced squad. That is a big problem. Mainly because we have that problem for a couple of years or so.
For example, if we we setup defensively, or back to basics as Arsene loves to say, we defend well, but we are not creative enough. Do not concede goals but rarely make chances.
The other extreme is when we try to solve the game by attacking and start being over creative. Back heels, overcomplicating, fullbacks as wingbacks, DM left exposed, midfielders tend to score more then protect their own goal.
Whatever is the setup, there lacks required balance. The main reason is the personel, or lack of specialist players, especially real DM and real wingers. Other reason is inability to make required tactical changes according to the opposition.
Another problem are the injuries and I really won’t comment on that one, because over the years it made me sick even writing down that term.
Another problem is the lack of motivation and in correlation to that- lack of seriousness and fear and respect from certain players in our team. Won’t say any names, anyone who watches Arsenal regularly probably noticed them so far.
Another problem is lack of leadership. On the pitch is evident there is lack of it. Can’t tell what is the situation off the pitch.
Another problem is the lack of good transfer strategy and identifying the weak spots in the team years after years. Money issue is not that big problem anymore, so why aren’t obvious weak areas in the squad not solved, I really, really, really don’t have any idea. Especially if that are position on the pitch that you don’t need to spend fortunes to solve it.
So, a very important questions emerges.
Do we pretend that all is good, like a bunch of yea sayers, thinking that we are on the right path this season, that everything is going to be solved on its own, doing the same things, starting the same 11, same formation over and over again, expecting different outcome?
Or, do we embrace this problems and start raising our voices of concern, without fear, but offering our support as fans in the process, like all fans that care aboit their club should do?
..except there was no foul by anyone leading up to the Fabregas goal, our Germans were given all the time in the world to ‘recover’ from winning the world cup, the performances of Sanogo, Özil and Welbeck have left more questions than answers, and a careless draw is better than being outplayed all night in a decisive loss?
Red and white tinted specs, Joeos.
Öskar
doh. A careless draw is WORSE… (not what I rote)
Öskar
rote? 🙁
Please guys Welbeck has played TWO games and was fearfully unlucky not to score against Citeh. He has faced two very good defences and his movement is much better than Giroud’s. Lets cut the guy some slack please. If the boo boys start this early what hope is there?
Well said, Lurky.
We have a transfer strategy you reckon? From what I see it comes down primarily to bargain hunting. Plugging obvious gaps in the squad comes decidedly second and is purely coincidental when it happens.
Öskar
On principle I agree about Welbeck, Ttg, but so far he is living down to his Manure reputation for not scoring often enough, and that is a legitimate concern about why he was signed. Meanwhile Costa is nicely bedded in at the chavs and Balotelli similarly at Poo, and Falcao and Cavani, whom rumour has we could have signed (at a price), are plying their trade elsewhere. Welbeck was AW’s answer to a problem, and it’s looking more and more like a compromise.
We’ll know more after Villa which, regardless their present position, is a team we should easily beat … on paper.
Öskar
Pseudo intellectuals and monomaniacs – I can remember when this place was all fields.
The season is in it’s nappies, people.
Love,
from the Foundation. 😎
It’s okay, cba, I’ve noticed the ‘their’ and ‘is’ in my previous. If I could edit it I would… 😉
Öskar
Never have I seen so much fascination with the words “savage” and “savaging” as in the British press. The odd thing is though, Robbie Savage is usually the one doing the savaging.
Passion play is what these savagers want, apparently. They are currently casting about for a new Gervinho, a new Eboue. Don’t let it stick Danny. Run free on that green pitch that is your new home.
Interesting results across Europe this week.
All I can say is, bring on Villa.
🙂
Some more pseudo intellectualism from the chief culprit:
Walter Benjamin: “Es ist niemals ein Dokument der Kultur, ohne zugleich ein solches der Barbarei zu sein.” That is, “There is no document of civilization that is not at the same time a document of barbarism.”
Yet, the struggle to rise above the violence and barbarism of our instincts and impulses persist and find its expression in things we create and things we say.
Just because a worm living under the soil cannot see the Sun doesn’t mean that the Sun doesn’t exist.
Humanity, the rising above barbarism, lies in respecting others’ rights to express themselves — in Art or in words, even when they don’t coincide — even when one doesn’t like either the content or the form. The basic human contract of civilization.
Sports is more than sports. Has always been. That is why we are here in this bar. And no one can deny that.
Ten years, twenty years, thirty years, fifty years …all of us here will die one day or another. We will cease to be. None of these will matter.
And it will be too late to lose the violence of your disgust — towards yourself and others — that you think you need to survive.
The U-19s showing how it is done:
http://www.arsenal.com/match/report/1415/post/under-19/dortmund-under-19s-0-2-arsenal-under-19s
🙂
Crowley is coming along nicely, next playmaker in line after Zelalem.
Not Aleister Crowley I hope, Dr F…
Öskar
the only Alastair is Hurrah, oscar.
Oskar @ 167: I am tempted to make various quips in poor taste about black magic and white magic etc. 🙂
If you can please do check out the highlights — available in Arsenal player — of our U-21’s 2-0 win over Villa. Some good football.
The fickleness and disproportionate reaction of some of you is staggering:
Oskar @ 159: A case of lies, damn lies and statistics to try and undermine Welbeck. Chelsea have had a relatively benign start to the season: Burnley (A), Leicester (H), Swansea (H) for Costa to rack up his goals (not forgetting the anomaly of the goal-fest v Everton). If you’re going to judge Welbeck on how well he did v Man City, let’s see how Costa does on Sun then. And let’s compare them more rationally say at the end of November.
Balotelli scored in his 3rd game for Liverpool against lowly Ludogrets after 2 unconvincing performances beforehand – hasn’t Welbeck played only twice for us in the extremely challenging fixtures of Dortmund (A) and City (H)?
I think Welbeck has been ok, and although I have reservations about just how predatory he’s going to be (will he be a 15-20 goal a season man, or can he ultimately get to the 25-30+ level) – his athleticism, skill & team-play is going to be a real asset, and certainly if he keeps on getting into good positions, I think he’ll have a dozen goals at least by Xmas. And those bringing up the Van Gaal quote – Welbeck never got a run at centre-forward (to accommodate more illustrious purchases of Rooney and RVP) and was shunted out wide or to a more deep-lying position b/c of his other estimable qualities. Despite all that, he still scored 20 league goals in 53 starts for Utd – not bad at all!
I will, Dr F, and I’m sure it will be encouraging. As we know AW has been trying to build an Invincibles Mk2 based on buying and developing youth for at least a decade now.
Maybe tomorrow? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a1try9_sZo
Öskar
If Welbeck gets 15-20 goals in a season I will be wellbeck satisfied, Gregoire. He’s never come within cooee of that before, but I guess we can dream, aye.
Öskar
Some James Olley fella, yesterday called Bellerin “a 19 year old Champions league debutant”. I missed the pleasure of seeing what he called Chambers who featured in our game v Besiktas.
Guess I’ll have to wait patiently to see how he covers last nights games, this evening in his “free newspaper”, the Evening Standard.
Great!!
UTA
🙂
Dr. Faustus, we don’t agree sometimes but your understanding of the game is maybe the best in this bar and am always enjoying the insightful analysis in your posts.
Let ’em be, and keep up the good work is all I will say.
On the striker debate.
I must say that I am amazed how well Costa is doing at Chelsea. Honestly my expectations were that he is going to be even worse then Shevchenko or maybe even Torres.
So far, he has shown that his timing is good, he can beat offside traps with ease, find himself into good positions and finish them off, and to be fair to him. that is what a striker needs to do. But, I can’t help but to feel that it is not going to be this easy for him in the future, he has a lousy first touch, bad and nervous temper,
and I still think that his good form at the moment is temporary.
Anyone remembers Benjani Mwaruwari or whatever his name was? Or Benteke in recent years?
Welbeck, on other hand, is the total opposite, IMO. He is much biger and natural talent then Costa. Pace, strength, link-up play, decent first touch, understanding of the game, football ability it is all there.
He maybe lacks composition in front of the goal, can’t finish his chances and Lady Luck is not with him at the moment, but it will all come good for him. He will find the right balance, the understanding with his teammates and start scoring those goals for fun.
@153
I think “embrace the problems” sums up the philosophy of a certain section of our “support” as well as anything I have ever read on here.
Very important that we raise our voices of concern without fear. If there’s one thing the Internet in general and Arsenal sites in particular suffer from it’s people being far too timid to give their opinions.
Kudos for sticking your head above the parapet. Too many people think that the role of a supporter is to voice a few concerns but generally get behind the team, rather than to constantly deliver shrill, bullet point lists of all the club’s flaws and generally flail around like a dying fish in the wake of each and every bad result or setback.
Perhaps now that you’ve laid it all out, the healing can finally begin. God knows how the club survived for the first century or so without fans on the Internet pointing out where it was going wrong.
#prayforarsenal
For Dr F:
“When brothers agree, no fortress is so strong as their common life”.
My favourite quote from Antisthenes.
N7, let’s form pressure groups and fight for our rights, either they address our demands or we go on strike. That should teach them fuckers not to mess with us.
@Cent
Black bin bags on seats, candlelit vigils outside the stadium and a stirring rendition of “We shall overcome”.
Every generation has its struggle. This is ours. We will not rest until Ozil plays central or is dropped entirely.
#prayforarsenal
That is the first part of our manifesto, Wenger must make subs at half-time, we must go back to 442, Arteta and Flamini + cash must be used in exchange for a deal to bring us that Portugese “new Viera” and every other thing we make up as we go along must also be addressed!!!!!!!!!!! Or we strike!!!!!
You have a favourite quote from Antisthenes, N7? I’m impressed, I had to look the bugga up!
Anyway, I’ll pay your Antisthenes and raise you Democritus … “Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion.” Or as Billy Joel once said … “Hot funk, cold punk, even if it’s old junk, it’s still rock and roll to me”.
Öskar
@ Oskar 172.
But if we all went blithely on what strikers had done “before” – in their early years, then you neglect all the seasoned performers who really found their professional maturity and goalscoring form toward their mid-20s (Henry, Diego Costa, Drogba – to name but a few)…I’m not going to write Welbeck off on the vagaries of him emerging at a time when United were serial league winners and always having to accommodate bigger names (Rooney, RVP, and finally Falcao) up-front.
I’m going to trust what I see (i.e. the talent), and not a negative media/fan inspired derisory bandwagon about his goalscoring potential. You mock me saying 15-20 goals a season, but I think that barring long-term injury this autumn, Welbeck will definitely score at least 15 goals this season. Hopefully many more….
Gregoire: let us also not forget that a certain Dutch chap who now plays for some club up north-west used to need quite a few chances for every goal he scored. Getting into the scoring positions is the difficult bit and Welbeck has that. This does not mean he is guaranteed to become a 30 goals per season player, but he’s definitely got the potential. In two games he’s had one off the inside of the post, one shot just inches over the bar (the one just before he was subbed v City – it was really, really close) and two really good chances v Dortmund, the second of which he created almost all by himself. Alexis and Welbeck has brought a new dimension to our attacking game, we “only” need to get the midfield to click again and we’ll be ok.
@Oskar
I play in a five a side team with my two brothers. A few years ago I collected together all the various match reports people had written (there were a lot of them – the team has been together for a decade), had them leather-bound in large volumes and gave them to my brothers as Christmas presents.
The Antisthenes quote above was written on the inside cover of each volume.
It’s a reminder that though we may have disagreed and fought upon occasion, in those moments where we all pushed in the same direction, we were able to achieve great things.
Victoria Concordia Crescit, in other words.
COYG
Lars.
I was very impressed with the way he rolled the defender and simultaneously turned with the ball to create his second chance. If he scored it would have been a great goal.
Welbeck needs time. And so do the rest of the team to gel. As you say, at least he’s getting into those positions.
Debuchy is a big loss though.
I see the transfer rumours have already started. Soon, they’ll be putting the christmas lights up in February.
The fact is Wenger is not a tactician, he just wants to play an attacking football. Sometimes it works if the other team lets us and sometimes it feels we need to score more then the opposition to win the game. There was no game plan we were hanging by the threads and it seems to be happening every time we play a top side.
Dortmund run 11km more than we did I know we had a tough game against City on Saturday but surely these guys are pros not a Sunday league outfit and their energy levels should have been restored. If this is a question of training regime then do light sessions after a draining game like the one against City.
City and Chelski didn’t look like a bunch of clueless idiots chasing shadows we did, it’s the manner in which we surrendered, we were outplayed in every department.
Team is currently very unbalanced and this is top priority for Arsene to sort out, as for injuries well where do we start? I pray to God we don’t get more in the next games because we will be bare bones and this again is an issue Arsene needs to address. We need decent cover for these positions and if homework was done to start with none of this would have to mentioned now.
Cent,
An alarming change in attitude overnight ?
‘City and Chelski didn’t look like a bunch of clueless idiots chasing shadows we did’
And in the end City lost and Chelski drew at home.
Charlie
Yes they did but that is not the point, if you catch my drift.
There’s a reason Welbeck was only third in the Manure pecking order, and dropping further down with the arrival of Di Maria and Falcao, Gregoire. As analysed here … http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/danny-welbeck-vs-wayne-rooney-4207804
I agree it’s early days and he may improve, but he still looks to me like one of AW’s bargain buys, the one we could afford rather than the proven goal-scorer we needed.
It’s not AW’s fault of course. Despite the Özil coup we scan rarely compete with other clubs for the cream. Nor I fear will we ever be unless the board sells out to Usmanov or some other oily mafia type. So punts have to be taken and Welbeck is just the latest. That’s all well and good, but we’ll still be treading water on the CL qualification border line if he ends up another Jeffers, or Gervinho, or Chamakh or…
We’d have been better off, in the short-term, with Klose or Berbatov or Demba Ba even, imo, while saving the money for another coup.
Öskar
What a wonderful Christmas gift you put together for your 5-a-side brothers, N7. Good on ya!
I used to love that game, which we played at school about 60 years ago! We played on a couple of side by side tennis courts from memory, and I was a proper Joe Cole of a player back then. In my own mind, anyway. Or more like an Alex James of course, with Joe not even a twinkle in his father’s eye then.
Öskar
Arthur, I think City looked every bit as outplayed as we did. Joe Hart made three or four brilliant saves and Bayern missed an almost empty net after less than a minute of the game. Had City held on for a point it would have been a travesty.
@ Oskar 189.
Interesting point about whether we should have gone for a Berbatov, Ba or Klose (or perhaps the most prevalent one you missed, Remy) ahead of Welbeck….
What we need to remember is that our striking ‘depth’ issues will be eased by Walcott’s return in the next few weeks and Giroud’s return in Dec/Jan. Thus to me, filling our squad with more expensive bit-part pros plus-30 seems counterintuitive. I think it was great canny business to capitalise on Man Utd’s strange, desperation buying, and getting Welbeck at 16m was a real steal, b/c he can offer the immediate PL experience and goalscoring threat that all those aforementioned players offered (can you honestly guarantee that Berbatov or Ba would score more than Welbeck at this stage of their careers – remember that Welbeck is also fashioning a lot of these chances he’s “missing” himself against exceptional defences), but we’re also getting a very talented 23-yr-old with plenty of room for improvement and value to us over a number of years going forward.
I think the deal was a no-brainer really, and in a few months time, if we can have a little foresight and patience, and forgo the tyranny and hysteria of the ‘now’, I quietly believe our striking options will look healthier than Chelsea (only having Remy and a past-it Drogba as back-up to a fragile Costa) and City (only Dzeko/Jovetic as alternatives to a fragile Aguero). Also, to liken Welbeck to Jeffers (do you watch football, and have you seen any CL and international football over the last few years?) smacks me of luddite football knowledge and a self-fulfilling cynicism and snideness about what Arsenal are trying to do.
To be fair, he didn’t liken Welbeck to Jeffers as such, just put about the worst-case scenario of how he does for us.
We got rolled, I’m over it, we fight on.
Saturday. Way I see it, players need a rest and what we have been doing hasn’t exactly lit it up yet. Naturally, via BIG Ivan as my media, Arsene will be on my wavelength. With that in mind, I reckon he sends out the boys like this, with equivocation over Chambers tonsils:
Schez — Bellerin, Kosc, BFG, Gibbs — Chamber/Flamini, Wilshere — AOC, Santi, Poldi — Sanchez
Get some proper wing play, stouter at the base of midfield, and just far too much pace and technique for Villa to live with us. Players in that side with a point to prove to.
Poonward.
178 – someone from the movement should contact John Cross. He loves a flaky bin-bag protest story and that rag will obviously print anything no matter how poorly sourced. Extra points if you include “purple, monkey, blue banana” in the communique. Over.
#BinBags
OTD
I remember being very lukewarm about the purchase of a guy called Henry. He didn’t look a natural striker for France was down the pecking order at Juventus and had never delivered big goal tallies at Monaco or Juve.
When he came I saw him miss a sitter at Wembley and mentally consigned him to the scrap heap. A few minutes later he scored a cracker with great precision and then set up Suker. Gradually he grew into the striker we learnt to love and defences to fear. I think AW can generally pick strikers very well. He’s not infallible but he can particularly recognise those with pace and movement on the wing who can translate that into the middle.
Far from being discouraged by Welbeck I think his movement and ability to turn ( as Joe pointed out) look very encouraging. If some idiots out in Dortmund choose to boo him perhaps they should stay at home and let other more positive supporters take their place
Tdd. Good idea. I will be waiting here to hear from the less positive supporter who wants to give me a ticket. 🙂
The famous Arsene Wenger went to Rome to see the Pope,
The famous Arsene Wenger went to Rome to see the Pope,
The famous Arsene Wenger went to Rome to see the Pope,
And this is what he said –
“Where’s that thundertinygooner
He’s the one we all adore,
He knows all me friggin’ mates
Meets them all at dinner dates,
Talks the hind legs off a donkey, and some more ……… ”
*sorry, ttg, purely in fun* 😉
Lars
Last year they got truly rolled over. Anyway I just wish we could learn from these games going forward. Seems like we shoot ourselves in the foot against top teams.
We haven’t had a really bad start to the season. Lets move on but let’s improve at the same time nothing else.
UTA
BANG!
Trev, I’ve been told that actually supporting your team in bad times, trusting those in charge to do their jobs and hoping for the best is delusional and equals to pretending everything is fine so I’ve decided, I think N7 made the same decision too, to heed the calls and do the exact opposite of what I’ve been doing before.
I will be booing the boys from the viewing center, drawing up my theories on how Arsene is stubborn and wants to sink Arsenal, slating Ivan and every other Arsenal staff including Gunnersaurus and the tea lady everytime we concede a throw-in. That’s what supporters do, innit? The bloke who held up the A4 sheet with “Spend! Spend!! Spend!!!” Written on it at our home defeat to Aston Villa last season forced Arsene to sign Ozil didn’t he?
Great strike Cynic should have signed you instead of Wellbeck 😛
El Puno @ 194: Good line-up that. Rambo and Ozil both can do with a bit of breather and just the opportunity to think about their game a little bit. Rambo needs to simplify again and Ozil just needs to relax and be confident. If we thought English media is bad German media’s reaction to his performance at Dortmund has been very negative. And being accepted and loved in Germany as one of its own is something that he has always cared about. (Life is never easy for the second generation with the conflicted emotions and complex array of identities). I think Arsene is just the person to help him turn the negativity around him to make him take the next step and have a career that will mark his generation.
In your line-up I actually won’t mind seeing Campbell in one of the flanks. I think he is much more of an accomplished product at this time than many are expecting.
However I think Arsene would play Welbeck, and instead of Poldi (or Campbell) Sanchez on one of the flanks.
Also, how about playing Jack in the deep lying role and use a high energy partner like Rambo or TR7 as box-to-box? Jack has been asked to play that role for England as well. Basically 4-2-3-1 with a combination of Jack-Rambo-TR7-Arteta-Flamini .
Next time we think of a manager to replace Arsene Wenger,there is Klopp.Beautifull plus attacking football on a shoe string budget.
Welbeck looks good and fits our style perfectly. He didn’t look like a striker who was playing with a new team without any practice with his team-mates. He understands how to manipulate space, has a good intuition, strong, fast, presses the defenders, willing to drift to the flanks and switch positionally and knows when to shoot. The unerring accuracy comes with a bit of experience which teaches the strikers to be composed and simply relax in front of the goal and not try too hard. His passing though is adequate doesn’t have the sharpness in small space like Giroud’s (often instrumental to our intricate technical goals even though not necessarily scoring them).
He will be just fine. Once Giroud is back it would be interesting whether they rotate or we play two big bullies upfront — one with more pace and another with better link-up play and craft — to really bother the defense with Welbeck nominally on the flanks but interchanging positions with Giroud. The latter is unlikely I guess, especially with Alexis, Theo and Ox offering pace and width.
On the complete sidenote, anyone else was bothered by UEFAs choice for refree shirts this season?
I often caught myself mistaking refree for our player in the Dortmund game, can only imagine how confusing for players it had to be when you have to pass in blink of a moment often relying on your peripheral vision.
@179 Cent
I can’t remember someone here mentioned something about half time subs, ever.
Neither I remember someone calling we go back to 4-4-2. However, 4-2-3-1 formation was mentioned by me before the Dortmund game as the one that suits us the most, letting Ozil his preferred position at 10 and enabling double pivot in midfield, because having just one player there is counterproductivefor us.
That is mainly because when we build up attacks, we use either Arteta or the flanks. At Dortmund, opponents manager instructed their players to press Arteta because there was simply no way we were going to build attack through Bellerin, because of his inexperience. So, if Wilshere or Ramsey played close to Arteta, we could have taken less risk, because Arteta would not have to make that many vertical passes the other midfielders, etc…
Arteta+Flamini+cash=someone is another formula that looks strange to me, mainly because I struggle to remember anyone suggested that here too. Maybe your boy mentioned it, when he was disappointed that we didn’t adressed that weak area, as is DM, in our squad. As for me, I thought that we have enough good and experienced, and on other hand young and decent players to cover there. It seems that I was wrong. We don’t.
But it was a very naive from me to expect that our manager will give chance to young Chambers there. So far, that is. Maybe he will.
Also, it would be nice and mature if you stop playing victims, in this bar especially, where it is often 10 against 1, you know in who’s advantage. Keep that in mind, mate. Other that that, you and N7 had some good points about fan support, that I agree with. Cheers.
Totally with you on that one, Eandy. Not only did that kit make the ref look like a PE teacher, the colour was also far too similar to that of our shirts.
(Although while we’re on the subject I thought the ref had a bloody good game)
Éandy @ 206: It is all part of a big plan. Eventually referees will get the authority to participate actively as well. That will shake up the sense of complacency from the players and they will be learning the game well into their thirties.
For us, more unpredictability, more entertainment.
For UEFA, more revenues.
Or something like that… 🙂
Agreed Lars, ref was right in majority of his decisions. I am mentioning it since it was hinted on one czech sports server that our players actually complained about it and that few times they passed the ball towards refree thinking it was an Arsenal player, yet I was not able to find a source on that.
Still, always thought that kind of thing is only possible in FIFA (often when playing Chelski when opposite player picks black shirt, the refree is also in all black), but apparently it is not. We should have used our red and white kits..
Eandy: interesting, I did actually think on a few occasions that it looked suspiciously like they thought the ref was one of our own. It didn’t affect the game of course, but still.
And yes, we should have played in our home kit. But such are the rules of flogging as many different kits as possible, you have to play in them every once in a while…
@Eandy & DocFaust
Ref has been actively involved for the other team for ages.. see Man U under Fergie for references. Waiting for the day a disgruntled ref writes a ‘tell ’em all’ book…!
😀
Big stinking pile of poo of a performance, but this is football and things like that happen. I hope it acts as a wake up call and it spurs (for lack of a better word) us on to better showings.
Some very decent posts up here, Mr Kipling would be quite proud of N7’s offering, various hehs from cba (as always) but also too much dribble and knee jerkiness going on from a bunch of eunuchs, don’t get me wrong, I’m all for constructive criticism, but calling for the managers head after one loss is some shameful shit.
iH2H @ 213: Are knee-jerking eunuchs good organ donors? 🙂
Let me also ‘motivate’ you to find a better word for ‘spur’ . 🙂
I think that the few who drop by only after a loss to demand manager’s head do that just to see how others respond to their obnoxiousness. In other words, trolls. Better left untouched and unheard.
BB @ 212: Howard Webb’s autobiography: “It ain’t me babe”.
Oh wow.. http://www.espnfc.com/arsenal/story/2042359/arsenal-right-back-mathieu-debuchy-may-need-ankle-surgery;-wilshere-ok
It never rains around here, just comes pouring down! 🙁
We’re wafer thin at the moment BUT on the bright side great for Bellerin to step into the limelight! A few months playing regular football will either make or break him (or us)!
Very interesting times indeed!
BB — I am not sure what the loan agreements are but if needed can we call Jenks back from West Ham?
No.
Season long loans are usually just that.
Lurky, I like to take things to the next level, people demand Arsene makes subs earlier than his usual 65 mins mark? I want him to make them during halftime. You want Arsene to play 4231? Personally, I don’t care that he has made a career out of building teams that the sums of its parts are way better than the parts in isolation, sees our players everyday in training and therefore has a better chance of knowing what formation would best suit the players, I just want us to play 442.
My new friends tell me Arteta and Flamini’s legs gone and that they are both useless as DMs so I think we should get rid of them and what better way to do it than throw in some cash(whatever Porto wants really) and get Porto’s 21 year-old beast in midfield(the new Viera, the solution to all our problems, the one all my new friends were raving about in the summer)?
You seem to think my post was addressed to you alone, well I’m sorry to break it to you- it wasn’t. But if the shoe fits, lace it up, mate, its fresh out our new Guilty Conscience Collections.
Me my new friends don’t do maturity or “nice”, we specialise in chucking our toys anywhere, anytime, anyhow and anyway we want it.
Thanks H2H.
So, Bellerin & Hayden will see some first team action.
And. hopefully, no more defensive injuries. Or any injuries.
Someone mentioned Klopp above after Arsene eventually calls it a day. If we don’t do something about our horrendous injury record and try to play such a high tempo pressing game week-in week-out we would be playing our reserves in no time. 🙁
Cent, with all due respect, I really don’t know who your sarcasm is meant for in this bar among the regulars. I recognize its applicability to a certain section of our fan base that do say some strange stuff in social media — but people do say strange stuff in social media anyway — but they really are a minority. A very vocal minority, and the shrillness of their voice no more hides the paucity of their numbers as it doesn’t hide the inadequacies of their loyalty and basic decency.
So that is why we like this bar. Well-reasoned arguments and opinions where disagreements are expressed in terms if sometimes not entirely amicable but never so extreme to deserve derision from the opposition camp.
Arsene has forgotten more about football than any of us will ever know. That is a fact.
He is one of the best managers of modern football. A pioneer. An erudite iconoclast.
We have a great club we are all privileged to support.
But we all have opinions. That we are free to express. And they are not expressed live at the stadium. But after a poor performance as an attempt to figure out in our mind what had gone wrong and a way of commiserating with fellow sufferers.
What exactly is so demeaning and so disloyal and so divisive in saying that a player X didn’t play up to his potential today. Or player Y is having a bad run of games. Or if the player Z was sub-ed at 60th minutes by player A we might have had a better chance.
Isn’t that supposed to be the fun? The discursiveness? Isn’t that what people do in real bars after the match?
Or is critical thinking and speech to be absolutely abolished at the altar of some imaginary cult of unquestioned loyalty?
If I may, I think Arsenal on the whole has a fantastic worldwide fan base. We often forget that how many more new fans have joined the Arsenal family all over the world in recent years. This is in the Emirates era when we did not “win” anything and “sold” our best players.
Our fans are not stupid. They get it what the club is about. They support and love it for that. It is one of the most well-respected football clubs in the world. In the world. And well loved also.
Let us not tarnish our fellow fans and supporters with a broad brush of vaudeville clownishness that they hardly deserve. After all, the fellowship of fans is no less a fraternity.
Re: Cent @301. It’s as clear as cay. 😉
Or day. 😉
Spill chucker almost turning day into night.
Dr. F, I’m in a hurry now, I will your post later respond. Cheers.
Dr F knows. Great stuff Sir.
At the half it’s Partizan Belgrade 0 Tottenham Hotspur 0 but I have a feeling it won’t be happy for the Totts by the end. Too many steaming Serbs breathing down their necks.
Just to point out, Cent’s rebuke, as well as my own, was provoked by someone persistently referring to those more positive than himself as “yeasayers” and deluded, and imploring said positive thinkers to “be honest” and “embrace problems…. as all fans that care about their club should do”.
If you wish for respect to be shown to your own opinions, you must first show the same respect to the opinions of others.
Plenty of critical comments in the bar – in fact, after Tuesday night’s performance I don’t think a single person has posted without a word of criticism, quite rightly.
I don’t think it’s criticism that irks people, I think it’s the repeated, monotonous singling out of individual scapegoats, the “I was right” posturing after a defeat (even if you think you were – show a bit of class, eh?) and the implication (and I accept this may not have been intended, but it’s nonetheless clear) that anyone with a slightly cheerier disposition is some sort of simpleton who is only kidding themselves.
No personal offence intended to anyone involved, but I think if you negatively characterise those with whom you disagree you cannot be too surprised if they return the favour.
Oh, and of course anyone who wants the manager sacked after one defeat in five months can obviously cock off.
Peace and love to all men, and all that. It would be nice if we could chat about all this stuff without it becoming adversarial, and it may help to recognise that – brace yourselves – there really is no right or wrong answer when it comes to a lot of this stuff, it’s all just a bunch of opinions contributed by people with no real expertise in the relevant field.
Drinks on the bar for those who know the score.
COYG
Evening DrF – I’d love to The Panther get a run out, just doesn’t seem Arsene is as keen. I’d sit a couple of spritely workers either side of Flamini – Wilshere and Rosicky for me – and let the front three work on the goals. We can’t keep leaking goals, so a bit of back to basics intention, even if we have 5 attackers on paper.
Just hope we don’t go with 4 central midfielders pressed in again. Even with Sanchez we still look to miss a spark of pace and dribbling up front when we do that.
…I think it’s the repeated, monotonous singling out of individual scapegoats, the “I was right” posturing after a defeat…
N7 nails it.
I thought that the higher state of zen calmness is manifested in a much different manner than what is shown here over the drinks. But I guess I was wrong again, and will admit it, again, as usually when I am wrong. Or right. Yes I love do admit when I am right too, as much as when I am wrong, in case you missed it, deliberately, or not.
Is that class or not, really could not tell.
Which makes me wonder, is there a chapter in the zen lessons, that class is also shown in admiting when you are wrong? Is that lesson forgotten, because I struggle to remember when that kind of class was shown by the zen masters in this bar. It is possible that they might be always right, and always nails it…
And please stop doing what you obviously love to do. Stop putting words I never say in my mouth. Deluded, and that sort of words are not in my vocabulary when speaking to fellow gunners. Thanks.
N7 #228: Mine’s a tequila — cheers mate, that was a post of the highest order
We are where we are now and it seems to me to be sensible to recruit some experience through the free agency system. The current Uruguayan captain and someone with 101 caps for Nigeria might be good emergency signings to give us some experience and strength in depth. Bellerin won’t be helped by being too exposed too early. Tuesday night was very difficult for him. The Southampton game may suit him next week .
As for Diarra he might be an interesting signing. I know quite a lot about him as a friend was an adviser of his when he signed for Arsenal. He had three agents all with different agendas, was fiercely impatient and fell out with Wenger spectacularly on a private plane back from a French game . But he was very good and although he has chased the cash in his career , if he still retains most of his ability he would make a very good anchor possibly more mobile than Arteta and Flamini. He was unable to nail down a place at Real because of Xabi Alonso . It will be interesting to see if there is any truth in the free agent speculation.
At least he didn’t say there was a rancid smell about the place, or that it “stank of eau de Hughes.”
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29252826
😉
I see N7 has done much of the work for me.
I will just add in response to Dr. F that though our fans are generally not stupid we do have some stupid fans! Some of the best people I know are Arsenal fans and I’ve met quite a lot of awesome people, many of them from this bar, in the course of following The Arsenal but unfortunately some of the worst people I’ve met in real life and on the Internet are also people who claim to be Arsenal fans, I understand that it’s the same with other clubs but sometimes I get the impression that we do indeed have quite an above average number of the worst football fans. I also understand that I could be wrong.
Furthermore, if you back-drink what was written here by some of the regulars and not so regulars in the aftermath of tuesday’s game and still can’t find what was demeaning and in some cases downright insulting then…I don’t know what to say.
Ttg, trust me you don’t want to see Joseph Yobo in our defence, you’d beg Arsene to re-sign Johan Djourou. And don’t be fooled by the 101 caps, he stopped been good at around the 80th one.
We(Nigeria) were messing up with Yobo in defence for years(he was also the captain) and won fuck all but we finally benched him during the last AFCON and won it! He was benched in favour of a Chelsea defender who was out on loan to a mid-table Dutch club(he is currently on-loan at Middlesbrough.
Of course he is not the only reason we failed to win anything for a long time prior to the last AFCON but he was really a liability in defence in his later years.
Heh Cent….let’s sign Yobo and you can join the club and have your own personal scapegoat to harangue 😉
Being one of the “mature” years, the personal scapegoating of player X or “Y” or whoever is unfortunately part and parcel of many supporters. From my first attendances at Highbury in the 1950s, there has always been players vilified by a section of supporters. Since the introduction of the inter web thingy, it’s much more highlighted with accessibility for the keyboard warriors to vent their spleen, hidden behind the safety of a screen.
My only cursing is reserved either for referees or if an Arsenal player is palpably not trying (very rare), and of course all opponents are cunts;-)
N7 your post 227 is full of wisdom.
ah, a fine canapé of n7 made of a delicious slice of cent with a finely minced helping of ‘holic spiced with lars.
now, what to wash it down with. not wine. anything but wine.
Cent
Your knowledge of Yobo is greater than mine by a factor of several hundred so I will bow to your greater knowledge. I liked him in his early years at Everton but that was long ago. It still seems sensible to see what reasonable experience we can acquire to bolster the CB position. Hopefully we will not need to use them but we are Arsenal….! I saw Lugano get a very good header for West Brom last year but if he couldn’t rack up too many games for them that may tell a story although they had a strange managerial situation there last year.
Uply, haha, I’m worried if we signed him all might be forgiven and I will mostly see his good qualities 😉 .
Scruz, I see what you did there right at the end 😀
Ttg, it’s definitely sensible to try and get in one of those freebies on a short-term contract, especially one who is more comfortable as the left CB, that’s the part of our squad that I think is presently most difficult for us to find cover for.
Hardcore Hooligans everywhere.
I’m scared.
Run for your life, Silly.
Ttg, Lugano wasn’t the speediest defender even when at his best years, so I guess that, that old Per will welcome him, because it would mean that he can finally find someone that he may even beat in a 100m race.
It would be a battle of the Titans, an epic and a close one, but I would put my money firmly on our Per.
Don’t follow Yobo for years, thought he played somewhere in Turkey but not sure. He had some decent games for Everton in the past though.
I still think that we wont sign anyone as a backup defender, it is not Arsene style, but if we do, it would probably be Reveillere, mainly because he is French, had serious ligament injuries over his career and is free 🙂
End of days with Tommy Cruise is rather good….
Perhaps we can rewind too 🙂
The biggest challenge in the EPL will be our away game to bus stop in Fulham…
We win this only then we can think about winning the league!
Back down to earth lads!
Cent : “Sometimes I get the impression that we do indeed have quite an above average number of the worst football fans. I also understand that I could be wrong.”
You are wrong.
Have a look at message boards from other areas or topical Facebook threads: forget politics or religion where things spiral easily out of control. Even music, literature, art or even philosophy discussions get bizarrely antagonistic with ad hominem attacks flying everywhere.
I think we all take pride in the fact that the Goonerholic is an exception from this norm.
ATG @ 244: I agree that if we can beat the blue scums then the confidence and self-belief that would instill in this team would significantly propel it forward.
We need a run of good results and no more f***ing injuries.
I remain optimistic about the domestic double! 🙂
Gregoire (#192)…
“What we need to remember is that our striking ‘depth’ issues will be eased by Walcott’s return in the next few weeks and Giroud’s return in Dec/Jan” But it’s NOW that we need the cover, in which case a temporary striker with a goal-scoring pedigree would have made more sense than a youngster to be groomed for the future, surely?
“getting Welbeck at 16m was a real steal” That will be proven, or not, only in time.
“can you honestly guarantee that Berbatov or Ba would score more than Welbeck at this stage of their career?” No guarantees in football, Gregoire, but I believe that, played as a #9, Berba and Klose would have made a better fist of the chances that have come Welbeck’s way so far, and both would have been far more potent threats in set pieces. Not so sure about Ba. Bony or Remy would have been better examples.
“Also, to liken Welbeck to Jeffers…” I didn’t.
“luddite football knowledge and a self-fulfilling cynicism and snideness about what Arsenal are trying to do” Lol. 😀
Öskar
N7 @ 228: “there really is no right or wrong answer when it comes to a lot of this stuff, it’s all just a bunch of opinions contributed by people with no real expertise in the relevant field.”
Just like in everything else. 🙂
Opinions and right to express them regarding things that we don’t know much about is one of the important basis of freedom.
We are not fancy-dress fascists, are we? 🙂
El Puno @ 229: I like Campbell. There is a nice balance about his game, a calm non showing-off intelligence that is kind of rare, especially in young players with pace and dribbling skills.
I think we will also see Ox really pushing for the center of midfield role starting with this season, providing a variation over Rambo or Jack. Even when he was brought in as a sub to play on the flanks he always had the license to pick up the ball in the middle of the park and drive straight at defense. He will play a lot on the flanks this season too but I think every time he is given a chance to play centrally he will impress us all the more. A talented and intelligent all-rounder who really has picked up some good habits from the experienced pros: the positional awareness , the defensive desire, the pressing.
cent@240 😉
All this talk of signing out of contract free agent central defenders is making my brain hurt. How about Titus Bramble, ffs? At some point you do have to have a young ‘un like Hayden take his chance and see if it works out. Am reminded of lyrics from an oldie from Ray Charles , “Them That Gots”:
“They say that them that gots are them that gets
Is something I can’t see
If you gotta have somethin’, before you get somethin’
How you get the first is still a mystery to me”
Give them a chance, AW.
Interesting back drink and no shortage of various views or interpretations of the same match and results v Dortmund.
It is especially interesting how after 245 drinks (post match) that some of the earlier drinks in the session and the pre match drink get so easily forgotten or lost in the current debates some 245+ drinks later.
As is the norm after any important loss as this match was, there are views ranging from those who thought we were poor and say so openly, those who believe we were poor, but think we should refrain from saying so, and those who suggest we were poor, but are no worse off then city or Chelsea because they also did not win.
There was even a comment from one who actually thought “we were by far the better side” and went on to criticize those who dared suggest we were crap in every department.
For those who wonder why some on here seem to consistently dish out criticism, they forget it is usually in response to someone else on here who is trying to explain or provide some obscure lame stat or reason as to why we fucking brilliant or the better side, when were clearly shite.
The discussion then sadly ends up with one side of the debate suggesting you are not a true arsenal supporter if you dare suggest the team were poor.
FFS it is a football blog.
If the team plays like shite, which they did v Dortmund, what do some on here expect people to write. Similar to any profession, you are usually as good as your last performance and our last performance was woeful.
It is as simple as that, but some on here seem hell bent on disguising poor performances in various forms of stats and continuous excuses for our regular no shows.
the argument that city and Chelsea did not win either as some form of excuse for our own poor performance doesn’t wash either for the simple reason most in the footballing world are actually shocked at their losses or draw, where as for us, no one in the footballing even blinks an eye at that performance from us, because we have seen it over and over many times in the big matches.
Plus they weren’t played off the park in every department as we so easily were.
in summary for those who find the individual criticism of the team on here boring, continuous and never ending, just remember that it is no different or any less annoying than those who get on here constantly after our latest shite performance and try and tell the rest of us how they thought ‘we were better for the most part”, but somehow unlucky on the counter….
Well said aussie, couldn’t agree more.
Öskar
@249 Dr F
It’s a common Internet misconception that freedom of speech implies only the right to express an opinion, and not also the right to respond.
Nobody on this site has attempted to staunch free speech. People have expressed opinions, others have responded to those opinions. In other words, you are free to say something daft, and I am equally free to point out the daftness. And, of course, vice versa.
Free speech implies dialogue, not monologue.
Fascism? I think that’s a wild overstatement, even if you prefix it with “fancy dress”.
Very fair assessment Aussie. Sometimes we just need to call a spade a spade and be done with it.
7am kickoff cited the stat that we have the lowest shots per game in the CL for the past 3 seasons, which is frankly embarrassing. We seem afraid of the really big games and only come out of our shell when the pressure’s off, ie when we’ve been taken to the cleaners in the first leg and no-one expects us to qualify barring a miracle.
Well said, Aussie.
BJ 252….. “Them That Gots” great song, Ray Charles c’est magnifique!
253 – Slamalamadingdong and all that Aussie, well played 🙂
250 – Agreed. I don’t want to get in to where Ozil should play, but I do think that we need to stop playing people wide whose first instinct is to come deep for the ball, drift inside, and lack any real pace. We need to find a way to accommodate Ozil, Wilshere, Ramsey, Arteta, Rosicky, Cazorla in the middle. Let the wings be for forwards. I’d love to see The Panther, Sanchez, Walcott, Poldi get games out there. Would involve a rebalancing of the team though that Arsene clearly isn’t keen on. Either that, or he thought he would play us in to form with last season’s template and now that is sputtering he doesn’t want to risk the change?
AOC could go in either group, he’s that talented and versatile. Lie you say, he appears to have the making of a stunning central midfielder. If we had someone for the role, this one bloke sitting deep and then two just in front we have been playing might work. It would free up AOC, Jack, Ramsey to go box to box, which I don’t think many teams can handle. At the moment we are bleeding goals though, which is undermining the whole team. I’ve been saying for a while now that it I think Arsene would really like Jack and Ramsey to hold the middle together, but thus far they haven’t shown they can handle that tactically. Would seem that all the energy and commitment is there, it could work, but it hasn’t yet.
Players been talking up our new pace and some idea of this Pep’s barca “5 seconds” pressing strategy. Sounds wonderful. We just took a proper thumping of Dortmund, who do that as well as anyone. It’s happened a few times over the last few years form a few teams. Seems to be a good strategy to me. With that in mind, I find it odd that we have been so reluctant to really put the athletes in the team and get at sides. We managed it against City I must say, in spite of the two gifted goals which spoilt the result somewhat.
The oddity is, the best teams abroad seem to be able to use the pressing to get away with very attack minded selections. Madrid seem to have given up on the Makalele role just fine. Barca, Bayern both rolling with some sort of 2-1-4-3 formation a lot of the time. AW looks caught between two stools. Sometimes we press, other we drop deep and just wait. And wait. For teams to make an error than passively watch the ball go in when they don’t. He wants to be attacking, but shoehorns attacking midfielders in to the team as a form of possession defence. It doesn’t seem to help at either end.
Anyway, that’s my Ron’s worth. Get the pace and stamina in the team and chase the opposition into submission. Sounds worryingly English to me, throw hand grenades at them stuff, but I hope its more the current continental version. With that in mind, I would love to see more of Campbell and The Ox in the side with Welbeck and Sanchez. I reckon you put that front 4 ahead of something solid we’d do just fine and no one would want to play us. Just need to craft something solid out of the other 7 spots 😉
ttg – I failed earlier to acknowledge, or to thank you for, your long, detailed (and twice-typed!) rebuttal above of several points that I had made, and not directed at you. Thank you.
I recall your description of Untold Arsenal in earlier posts and wonder whether I should feel insulted that you recommend me to go and read it.
Big match tomorrow. Time to start looking forward.
Don’t you just hate when the press try to destroy anything which the club has which is good?
In this case it’s FA Cup and World Cup Winner and Holder who played in both finals – Flamin Ozil!!
They will not be satisfied until they’ve run him out of the club!!
It’s getting tiring seeing journo’s utter the word Ozil and something negative in the same breath. Makes me want to spew!!
So here goes…
UTA!!
btw: Morning El
Pangloss
No I don’t think you should read it at all! I think there has been quite an acrimonious debate going on around here and your note made me try to underline the quite nuanced position I often find myself in on this board. I think the right wing Untolds are amazing. I sometimes read the stuff on there and despair how totally one- eyed they are. Their exposes on refs are nerdish in the extreme. I use them sometimes as an example of how extreme views can colour debates and that is what I was alluding to here
I note with concern that some of the original posters on here don’t post with anything like the frequency they did.Their contributions were excellent and well- balanced and I think they have tired of the way the debate has moved on here at times.
Have a Whisky on my tab which you can enjoy while listening to us actually playing a game at 3 pm on a Saturday afternoon. That kick off time will never catch on!
Morning GT. Hope you are well mate.
I reckon this Ozil lad might just be alright. Started in a World Cup and European Championships final at only 25. Won the league in Spain, the cup first year with us. His talent will tell in the end.
Some funny bits on today’s Arseblog about press conference questions. Got me thinking, if you could ask a question, what would you ask? reckon I’d go with some Ron the manager waffle, but he’d probably deflect it. So, maybe, “why don’t you just play Akpom up front every game for the next decade already? It will happen sooner or later.”
That or just, “Arteta?” 😉
Before anyone tries to put a bin-bag over my head, I should say I like Arteta. I just don’t think he’s the guy to be the lone holding man in our team when both fullbacks are encouraged to get forward. A lot. It’s not treacly a role he seems to excel in or one that you would really expect him to given his playing career further forward. That didn’t stop Pirlo though.
treacly = really, but autocorrect might have done me favour there 😉
Treacly and slamalamadindong all in one day EL Puno.
Great words both and I would like to borrow hem both on occasions when we score goals or make awesome passes this season.
I.e – that pass from ozil was treacly and that victory over manutd was slamalalamadingdong
Cheers mate
“You help. A club is a union between players, supporters and directors. You have to be united and sometimes go through periods together where it goes a bit less well.
Why should he be be a scapegoat? We’ve lost one game since April 1. Let’s be realistic. We’ve come out of a very difficult preparation period with decisive games.
What is difficult to manage today is that everybody knows absolutely everything and everybody judges people definitely on one game. You have to accept that football is played by human beings who have ups and downs like you have in your life.”
Arsene KNOWS.
Anyone who still believes Özil is played on the left should not be allowed to even talk about football. Just effin’ look at the games, he’s allowed to move pretty much wherever he likes. Also, this “lazy” guy consistently clocks up enough yards to put him in the top three for most distance covered in most games he plays.
Why do we play a formation that is more 4-1-4-1 than 4-2-3-1?
We have had the fewest shots on target per game for, if memory serves me, the last two seasons in the Champions League of all teams participating in that tournament.
The last two seasons we haven’t created enough chances in the Premier League either. Contrary to fairly popular belief, we were really efficient last season, the problem was that we created too little in too many games.
With this in mind it’s not really that hard to see why Arsene wants us to be more attack-minded. I may not necessarily agree that we have a good enough player in front of the back four to do this, but then again we saw against City that when we do get the balance right we can be bloody excellent so if we do manage to get the balance right more often then who knows? Apart from Chelsea (who have had a relatively kind fixture list up until this weekend) I can’t say any team has consistently impressed so far, so we’re not the only ones struggling a bit at this point.
269 – Not sure if you are responding to posts about Ozil’s form or the team in general Lars, but I think there is more to it than just where MO gets to go when we attack. He certainly has freedom to move about when we attack and that seems, to me, to be a good thing.
However, he has defensive duties that do seem to reflect our formation, or at least he should. These are an issue. It also means that he starts from a wider position when we win the ball back, which may not be ideal. Also, by playing him as a nominal wide man, we don’t actually have a winger when he drifts. For a player who thrives on through balls, this perhaps does not help his game?
Cheers Lurky, Porco and Oskar.
EP: wasn’t responding to any particular post, it was just a general expression of frustration over too many people simply getting on the bandwagon and not thinking for themselves. Yes, Özil starts on the left but he spends more time in the middle and on the right than he does out left but many are going on as if he isn’t allowed more than two yards from the touch line.
Lars @269- the creation of chances is indeed a huge key to any football teams success. I also agree wholeheartedly that when we click we click very nicely. Throw in alexis and debuchy to your squad and you should be better.
Unfortunately clicking approx 3 times a year is also next to useless when judging an entire season which does raise the point that consistency is out main concern and issue as I currently see it.
We are excellent at our best, but we truly don’t know when we can turn it on week in week out.
The sad truth is Even with the best front 3 in the world, they are rendered completely useless when you are unable to feed them or are overrun in the midfield amd then get smacked at the other end due to poor defence or no big DM as a stopper to hold up or destroy the play.
The way that Ramirez and matic do for chelsea.
Personally, I think AW has truly stuffed up by not buying a really high class DM as hoped because you can clearly see what an important part of the team spine that is.
And for once that is not a dig about cost or money as you can clearly see now how much players like yaya toure, Patrick Viera and the like are worth to a big club.
The payback is very quick and the role truly gels the team togeather.
We are nowhere near that level of protection.
I can also say with 100% positivity and certainty that we are going to spend a large proportion of the year being very disillusioned and disapointed with arteta and flam week on week out.
I.e my hopes and aspirations for them both to be enough of a stop gap have been lowered which is disappointing.
Both great arsenal warriors, but like it or not they don’t cut the mustard at the top level and are not even close and the top level is where we play or aspire to play.
It is no point judging yourself by how well you control the tempo or matchc against teams like hull and the like.
Aah, the mythical DM that we must have in order to succeed. Wolfsburg had the guy who many asserted we were negligent in failing to buy last year playing last night. Despite this “world class” DM, Everton scored 4 and could have had more.
*Tries not to make ridiculous comments that are completely off topic.*
Tough job. 🙂
Ttg @263,
Agree on all points, as I often do.
Especially, actually, on the loss of so many former posters. The fun has been replaced by the acrimonious to-ing and fro-ing between some very entrenched viewpoints.
Lars,
the problem when Ozil starts on the left is not that he doesn’t have freedom to roam across the advanced midfield positions. No one suggest that really. No one suggest that he plays on the wing as a winger too. At least no one I am aware off.
I guess you’ve read Tim Stillman column yesterday and he is basically right that Ozil plays not on, but “from” the wing. One thing that Tim somehow failed to notice is one big difference when Ozil plays on the wings and when he does as a #10.
Well, when playing on the wing, Ozil tends to play horizontally from one wing to the other trying to find space, either for himself or his teammates.
The loss here is that we as a team loss very much of the vertical aspect of his game. When playing “from” the wing Ozil rarely gets himself into deep positions and is rarely in the playmaker’s position on the pitch, or the Fabregas position.
I have an impression that one of the big qualities of Ozil’s game- playing from the deep, is trully wasted when he plays on the wings.
Playing as a #10 will allow him to come back much deeper to get the ball, and that would really suit him because he would be far from the attention of the opposition team DM’s. If they start following him, then that will create free space for our box to box mid fielders to slot.
That is why I think that freedom you mentioned that he has in his movement at the moment is not the freedom he would like to enjoy.
As for the lack of chances, failure to create and lack of balance in the squad, I agree with you. We can’t find the right balance for years. If we play double pivot we rarely concede but fail to create. When trying different formations, like this seasons with two box to box mids, we are to open in defense and more vulnerable. I don’t think it is that much of a tactical issue then a shortage of decent players required to play in the both setups Arsene likes to use. As many pointed out, we lack a quick and strong DM and wingers who like to receive the ball in space (Walcott) for the 4231, or the same DM and two quality box-to-box (Wilshere and Ramsey) for the 4141 formation Arsene uses this season. The later formation is good against lower quality teams as it enables our hard working wingers (Alexis or Ox) our two boxtobox Ramsey and Wilshere and our forwards as Welbeck to press high at he usually non technical opposition CB’s and DM.
Case in point @274, joeos, whose remarks I particularly supported a day or so ago.
I was one who said I would love to see Gustavo arrive in the summer, and he did look like exactly what we needed until the whole Brazil team fell apart without Neymar.
When I made remarks of a similar tone to yours to Doctor Faustus last week, I was accused of verbal violence – for which I apologised.
I am not that sensitive myself so I will simply point out the total stupidity of your remark @274 – assuming Gustavo had a few actual team mates on the pitch and was not playing Everton single handedly – and wait for another ten posts to convince me I was wrong.
I am fast giving up in here.
A few people need to grow up.
@joeos- the sad part about the mythical DM for AW is that it didn’t used to be that mythical as we always had the best and AW just about invented the importance of that role.
Got that Friday feeling Trev? 🙂
Seems I have won the Paul Vaessen book on Arsecast 🙂 it was rather a good pronunciation I have to admit!
And, joeos, I never “asserted the club were negligent” in not signing Gustavo. I said he looked like a reincarnation of Gilberto Silva in those early games and seemed just what we needed.
El Puno,
Not at all.
We used to have a proper Feisty Friday in here in the days of the sadly missed Gooner Terry – and how we miss him.
Far worse things were thrown at each other than ever happens now, but it was ALL in fun and we all knew it.
It would do a few people in here good to go back and take a look at the posts made after that great man lost his battle with illness.
It’s what this place used to be all about.
Personally, I think the need for a DM is glaring and has been since at least Stamford Bridge.
I think Arteta is a great asset to the squad (I hesitate to call him a “fantastic servant”, because that term generally indicates someone about to be kicked sharply out the back door), but at the absolute top level he lacks the mobility to compete, and he has been proved to be susceptible to being pressed. Likewise, Flamini has many great qualities, but as I watched Leicester streaming through our midfield a couple of weeks ago I did find myself wondering what this would all look like against the better sides – on Tuesday night we found out.
I was mystified we didn’t add in this position in the summer. I’ve heard complaints about fourth choice centre back, but to me that pales in comparison to lacking a defensive midfielder capable of properly protecting our back line in the big away games.
Now, we are where we are. I hope we will address the issue in January, but I recognise that’s a hard time to do business; all the more reason to have got it done in the summer.
While we soldier on with our existing options, I think we should revert to 4-2-3-1, as Lurky has advocated (see – we do occasionally agree), to give the DMs a bit of extra help. It seems to me that playing Jack and Rambo further forward has only made the area even more exposed, and the team lacks the balance displayed this time last year.
Hopefully, we’ll have sorted some of this stuff by our trip to Chelsea. For all of the above, and all the teething problems this team has experienced, we are still well placed in the league, and have five champs league fixtures to overturn the damage done by defeat in Dortmund (if you’ll pardon all the alliteration).
I’ll be very interested to see how we line up on Saturday. The natural inclination is to expect rotation, but it would be very Arsene to select an almost identical team and tell the lads to put things right.
I’m also backing Welbeck to get off the mark.
COYG
Trev, my remark was not directed as a criticism of you, it was directed at the received wisdom which I see posted in many places. I do not recall your previous comments.
You do in fact illustrate my underlying point, that a Gustavo makes no difference to the outcome of a game if the collective teamplay is poor.
In my opinion a Gustavo would have made no difference to the big losses last season which were, mainly due to inept and negligent gifting of possession of the ball to the opposition around the half way line, who were then able to swiftly attack and overwhelm our defenders. We may in fact be in agreement, especially with regard to Gilberto.
Guys, there is no need to sugar coat the issue of DM. We need a strong,physical and athletic presence in the middle of the park. Even Wenger himself has said the same thing. Only he will know why he didn’t get one. Arteta and Flamini will never cut it, simple as that. When we played city, we all saw how fernadinho kept fouling and breaking our plays, we might not like it, but I sure do wish we had someone like that. I bet we wouldn’t have allowed Dortmund’s first goal, and as I do like to say,this is my humble opinion.
Joeos,
If that’s what you meant it might have been better to say it first time.
The two statements hardly endorse each other.
N7, I agree, nothing is lost both in CL and PL. Far from it. But we need to start winning again and that’s why the game tomorrow is of such importance. Win that and we can turn this slow start into a decent one, lose it and we can turn this slow start into very bad one.
That is why it would be very interesting to see will Arsene make changes for tomorrow. I fully expect him to make personnel changes and give some bench players their chance, but I am really curious about our tactical setup. Will he decide to stick to the preseason plan or admit the mistake and make some formation changes.
As for the Chelsea game you mentioned, dont know Arsene’s plans but I would bring either Chambers or Diaby (or even both!) covering one of those two doube pivot places in front of the defense, with Wilshere/Ramsey occupying the #10 in front of them. Alexis and Walcott on the wings and Welbeck up front if everyone is available.
That would be a high risk choice, mostly because most of the players lack playing time with each other and dont know themselves that well, but it would bring back the balance, speed and strength in our squad.
SAG, I do not agree that we needed a strong, physical and athletic presence to stop their first goal on Tuesday night. All that was required was for one of our players to use his head and stop their player and take a yellow card.
It is a sad fact that fouling to stop the opponent and diving to win free kicks and penalties have become a routine part of the game. We saw many examples of both from Dortmund and unfortunately it is something that we will have to make part of our game.
Dortmund had Bender, a physical DM, Kehl, a former centre back starting and they bought on Ginter who is also a defender/midfielder.
Trev @ 282: I actually had joined this bar as an active participant — I used to drop by read ‘Holic’s match report — following a particular post by GoonerTerry and he was the first to welcome me. I found his best quality was his basic human decency: treating fellow posters as human beings with opinions he could agree or disagree with and not necessarily an abstract target board to practice verbal darts upon. That was my impression in the year or so I knew him as a poster. Many of you knew him intimately and over many years and based on your recollection of him I don’t think my impressions are wrong.
Feisty Fridays were different because of its declared and licensed excess, which made it more a game and less an exchange of opinions. Games are always fun.
Previously in a post you had mentioned the episode of you apologizing to me. I think more than an apology that post of yours was so appreciated as it clarified the genesis of your sarcasm, and we all can empathize with a bad day.
The problem with an antagonistic tone that uses a platform of ridicule and sarcasm towards its targeted audience is that the content stays absolutely unheard. And the audience then no longer takes anything the writer is saying at its face value.
I think most of us here are matured and intelligent enough to say what we want, disagree, and discuss with wit and humor — or in some cases with dour intellectualism — without really having to abuse others, directly or through sarcasm. 🙂
N7 @ 255: “Free speech implies dialogue, not monologue.”
And we are having a dialogue where I am disagreeing with the form of what Cent had said, not the content. There really is not much to disagree with the content of what you and Cent have been saying, and I am one of the proponents of we needed a DM yesterday theory, which I think you too espouse. As Cent being one of the posters I really enjoy reading I thought it was unnecessary for him to use a form where the explicit shrillness of displeasure did no justice to the robustness of his arguments.
See @290 above for a more traditional clarification.
Also, there is always a little famcy-dress fascist in us, hanging on dearly to the coattails of the timorous old tyrant who is chasing after the utopia of uniformity.
The ideal of perfection outside. Is the enemy. Of the reality of the perfection inside.
…or something like that.
@291: “..fancy-dress fascist…” even. 🙂
Disagree with Dr. Faustus’ assertion that Trev’s humor detracts from the serious content of his posts.
What one person views as sarcasm, another one views as humor. An online forum such as this naturally tends to blur the differences. An excellent argument for a real bar with stools and such, actually. 🙂
8 ball @ 293: I did make no such generalization about Trev’s humor. I like the puns and wordplays as much as anyone else. And like his posts, most of the times.
But there was an occasion where he did snipe at me and later said he was sorry for doing so even though he doesn’t agree with me at all. We moved on.
Agree with N7 about the longstandly glaring need for a DM. Luiz Gustavo or someone else. The similarity of our losses to Liverpool and Chelsea last season to Brazil’s loss to Germany in the World Cup, however, does make me think slightly less highly of Luiz Gustavo in particular, however, considering that he was the DM in the middle of that catastrophe for Brazil. Even if it is a team game, a team is made up of eleven individuals. For those who haven’t counted recently. 😉
I find it hilarious that we need to keep defending Ozil. There will be a time when it will get tiresome and i feel it is very much now.
Why should we defend him?. Is it because he is that good? or he is that bad?. Over priced or under valued?. Genius or over hyped?. Is it because he is an Arsenal player that we need to defend him?.
Answer- we do not need to defend him for any reason until and unless we see him making less than a hundred percent effort on the pitch.
How will we measure his efforts?. not by checking stupid heat maps( ala that dumb idiots daily mail) or seeing how many times he tracked back.
We can only see whether he appears to be way to ineffective and more so dis interested and so far i have not seen either.
Ozil should not become a victim of the boo boys and the overriding media. He is an asset, a glorious one that to and we need to protect him when needed for he will take care of the footballing aspect.
longstandly = longstandingly
As some might have guessed.
So Joeos, how come none of our players were able to do that. Does it have to with the fact that they couldn’t catch up with him, not that he was going any faster anyways. And yes we do need a physical presence there, like it or not.
Dr. Faustus, I remember the episode and the apology you mentioned. No doubt I too have irritated and/or offended many in the past, and for that I apologize now because of my failure to do so before. Offense and irritation has never been my intention, but the more one writes in the drinks the more likely it is that the words will come out slightly wrong. Not sure how actual drinking changes that equation. 🙂
Lurky @ 287
Agree about tomorrow’s game. It’s now a big one, no doubt about that, and will give us a very clear idea of what sort of season we might be in for.
Strangely, I think that despite last term being our best in a while, we may actually be in for something of a transitional season here. I think the combination of a World Cup summer, Giroud’s injury, the departure of Sagna, an ageing pair of DMs and Le Boss’s desire to find a way to incorporate Wilshere and Ramsey may see us taking a while to settle, but might ultimately leave us better set for the future. Time will tell.
Re: Chambers, I really don’t know. I’ve been impressed but not blown away by him at CB. He’s clearly a talent, but still very raw and I’m wary of heaping too much expectation on him. I think that sending him out at DM in such a tough away game would be a very tall order indeed, especially given the attacking talents at Chelsea’s disposal and what appears to be a tendency on his behalf to occasionally dive in where standing up might be a better option. It’s possible we may yet see him anchor the midfield in a big away game, but I think it would be a big risk and I’d definitely want to see him have half a dozen games in that role before we tried it.
For me, the better option is to retain Arteta or Flamini (depending on the occasion), but support them better. Last season we saw Ramsey’s tireless running offset Arteta’s slowing legs to good effect, and I wonder if that might be the best available remedy here again, perhaps alonside instructing the full backs to show a little more caution.
Personally, I’d like us to go to the Bridge, Etihad, etc with our eyes firmly on a point. Sit deep, hit hard and fast on the break and challenge the opposition to break us down. I think that’s how titles are won. I’m also certain we won’t adopt that strategy, which is frustrating but also furthers my admiration for the Boss’s commitment to attacking football.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow. In 24 hours time it’ll either be time for a sigh of relief or to really baton down the hatches.
COYG
Re: The absence of some longstanding drinkers. I am sure Pangloss and/or ttg are right that some of them have gotten tired of the increasingly pedantic nature debate, and I think we need to lure them back. How, I am not sure, but I did enjoy hearing from Dapper DanC recently. 🙂
I think the Arsenal players are caught in a bit of identity crisis where the approach to matches are concerned. Last season our focus had been always to protect the goal as best as we can, play a bit cautious and then build pressure. Except of course in those matches where such an approach would have been most relevant. But in any case we played relatively conservatively but still had enough numbers and quality in the opposition third to make telling differences for most matches. The team had no problem internalizing this style because they realized the relative limitation of the attacking qualities and variations. They bought into it and played consistently enough.
This season we have a couple of key improvements in the attacking sense and we want to be able to go back to our insouciant ways, with exhilarating football, but haven’t found the right balance defensively. That actually takes away from the attacking insouciance because at the back of their mind their is always this doubt about being caught in counter-attack.
I agree with N7 that it would take us a while to find the right tactical balance and get the team to be fully comfortable with the new ways of playing, whatever that might be.
IMHO, we should start with Jack and Rambo at the base of the midfield — in any case Arteta has at most this season at the top level in PL as a regular — with Ozil as the very traditional #10. Ox, Arteta and Flamini providing rotational cover for Jack and Rambo. And Santi and TR7 for Ozil.
Some very interesting points being made!
Lurky I like your thinking and DF! Top stuff!
Well whatever we do in January we’re going to have to be careful as we’re apparently down to our last £173m if the latest accounts are anything to go by. No wonder we didn’t Gustavo!
And Trev, I wouldn’t take the fact that so many of the regulars who no longer come on here as a personal slight in any way mate. It might not be all your fault Trev despite what you may think yourself 🙂
No doubt the Scottish lads are probably celebrating independence as the new republican state of Northern England. (Seriously Lads, ye dodged a bullet with this independence lark. Just look at Ireland ffs! Even the Samaritans wouldn’t have us after the bollox we’ve made of it.)
And now, being an independent Irishman, I’m off to the pub soon for a few nice pints. If that offends anyone on here, well you can all go and do one.
See you all in virtual high spirits circa 3pm tomorrow.
🙂
Before we get into finance territory and further opportunity to fall out with good people we don’t know, can I just ask for an evening of respectful debate. Thanks all.
Please remember the finances are as at June 30th, not today. Money has been spent (yes, and earned) since then.
I am going to make a couple of ridiculously simplistic points which I think are mildly important. Firstly the mood on here clearly reflects the fortunes of the team. After a result like Dortmund it was Tetchy Tuesday and Woeful Wednesday. The other bad time for morale is the end of a transfer window when some work apparently needs to be done and…it isn’t. So that would be virtually every transfer window then. The mood after we signed Ozil ( which coincided with beating the LWCs) was euphoric as it was after we signed Sanchez. Such was the delight when we signed Ozil that a lot of us refuse to countenance that transfer not working out. It’s still too early, much too early to say that . But we need a win tomorrow. Villa may be second but they have Senderos at centre back and otherwise have many of the players that were so shite last season . So we can and should do them. If we don’t I would be very unhappy if we concede too many points to Chavski. If we find ourselves nine points behind them after our match in a couple of weeks we frankly won’t make that up. So it’s foot on the accelerator from hereon in.
As for Luis Gustavo I think he could be a seriously good addition particularly as he plays both positions in which we have an acute need of strengthening. Re the Wolfsburg / Everton game our 8-2 defeat didn’t stop the Mancs signing the Dutch Skunk afterwards.
One other point which relates to blooding young players. I don’t think games like Tuesday’s are ideal to introduce youngsters and we did Bellerin no favours by putting him into that environment especially with no one in front of him to protect him. I think Coquelin’s development was hit by his game at Old Trafford in the 8-2 and it is not good nurturing .
A common riposte on here to our various ideas on players and formations is that we lack the coaching experience of Wenger. I think what we lack is not always the football knowledge which is generally very high on here but knowledge of the players . Many years ago I had the pleasure of interviewing George Graham at Highbury. It was during the period when he seemingly refused to play Limpar. The Saturday before Limpar had come on as sub and immediately scored a sublime goal. I screwed up my courage to ask him why he didn’t seem to favour the Swede. Very respectfully he said’ that’s him all over but when you know the person behind the player you can’t rely on him’. I wonder what he would have made of Balotelli.
Maybe Wenger doesn’t think we can adapt to other formations but I think 4-2-3-1 would suit us much better and whether we give Ozil a free role or not we need to start him in the centre. But then what does he see in training that I don’t?
@ TTG
Really good post.
Most enjoyable set of posts since I started reading placed above. Cheers N7, a cracking read, DrF, Aussie, TTG, Lurky and Vinay as well.
I’d wholeheartedly agree that we need to get the centre of our midfield rebalanced and that the most enticing solution does seem to be Jack and Ramsey figuring out how to hold the middle in tandem with Ozil ahead of them. This reeks of being the future. I wonder if Arteta/Flamini have been left behind them so far as a stabiliser to be removed when they can handle it alone? Either they work it out or we add someone for the role I guess.
For tomorrow, given the hole in our bucket at the back, I reckon we attack. We need 3 points and given form that will need two or three goals. Get AOC, Poldi or The Panther in and play a genuine front 3 with pace. If nothing else it gives us the chance at some varied play if they press thickly in the centre.
Nothing is fucked here dude. Win tomorrow and we are 3 points off first. Nothing. We’ve barely even started the race. Got to start winning soon though as the games get harder, so be bold please Arsene. No more easing in to it, let’s see what this team really has.
UTA
Just reading the financial results reports… Better not to spend it than to spend it on shit… Does appear to show the Em’s handcuffs have been off a while. Will never know if we have been timid or prudent, but it will certainly lead to a lot of second guessing if we don’t win one of the two big pots.
This blog needs more Big Lebowski quotes.
Ever poke shit in the woods dude?
@ TTG 307 & EL Puno @ 309, great post, thanks. Something most definitely need to change, its up to you now, Wenger. COYG 3 points tomorrow.
I’m excited to see Diaby training again. Such a talent and so much respect for how he fights back from injuries. I’d love to see him stay fit, for him and our team. Would be huge for us, he’s just superb.
Ttg. – good stuff.
TTG, your point at 307 regarding Coquelin is not correct. At the point he was subbed off the score was 3-1, and this was after RVP had missed a penalty awarded by Howard Webb. In an attempt to get back into the game he was replaced by The Ox.
This proved to be a disasterous decision as thereafter the midfield surrendered and 5 goals were conceded. It is possible that he could have felt confident that if he had remained on the pitch then there would have been no collapse.
Joeos
My point was that playing in a struggling team , which we manifestly were that day , harms young players. I didn’t say he lost us the game in fact he was one of our better players but he must have found the whole experience deeply dispiriting . Can you imagine being in that dressing room afterwards? We were awful all game and at no stage were we ever likely to take anything from that game. In fact we suffered the ignominy of having SAF take pity on our situation . So I still think my point is fair.
Article says FIFA (Blatter) wants to take the watches but it doesn’t say what FIFA is going to do with them. 65 160,000 pound watches = about 60 million pounds, or possibly enough for a week of groceries on Blatter’s Mediterranean yacht.
I mean this article:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29285817
Even if it is just a tenth of that. Watches were actually 16,000 pounds each. Not to diminish my original point or anything. 😳
Have a few questions, motivated by some very good posts on the tactical situation (eg 269,273,283). Is it the case that the boss has decided that the major problem last year was too few goals and though the thrashings in key games need addressing, we do this with “attack is the best form of defence” ? Could this explain the transfer activity (although I subscribe to the cock-up theory, as in, it was too late for selling clubs to replace) ? Following on, if we are to evolve in a different way, would it not make sense to see the impact of the new offensive players (Sanchez, Wellbeck,Campbell) first, in the old system, before trying a brand new system ? Otherwise you won’t know if it’s the new system or the new players ? I suppose that sounds very critical but I think it’s a very interesting situation. Is this Wenger revealing a thrillingly exciting attack-minded philosophy that could pay huge dividends when it all clicks ? Or is it just mad given that we would have won the League last year (despite only scoring about 60 goals) if we’d had more about us during even one or two of those 6 pointer games ? It’s going to be bloody exciting watching this thing unfold. Any further views ? I’m not pro Wenger these days but I have to admire the ballsiness of what he may be attempting. COYG.
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