Frustration Grows As Gunners Draw Again
Oct 19th, 2014 by 'holic
Where does one start after yet another performance in which Arsenal frustrated more than they delighted? The day started well enough, a fabulous lunch in equally fabulous company. Asked outside how confident I was I had to respond with “Don’t tell anyone, but not very.”
That said we made a bright and confident start with Jack Wilshere, Danny Welbeck, and Alexis all having opportunities before Santi Cazorla drew a fantastic save from Harper. An opening goal was surely coming, and duly arrived, an Alexis special, and not the only reason he was Arsenal’s man of the match.
When we are in such cavalier mode we are a joy to watch, but as so many sides have now shown, easy to counter-attack. Diame’s rampaging run appeared to have been ended by Mathieu Flamini’s intervention, but the Frenchman was manhandled out of the way and the Hull man went on to finish with Arsenal players berating the hapless referee, Roger East. Arsene wasn’t slow in letting the fourth official and the assistant referee know his take on the incident.
One of many breaks in play
Let’s make it clear that the referee was dreadful throughout, worse even than Anthony Taylor against Villa last season, and his non-decision here did affect the result, but let’s not allow that to blind us to the fact that Arsenal should still have had enough talent on the pitch yesterday to beat a mid-table team. For all that Hull did what the lesser clubs have frequently found fruitful against us, the unchecked time-wasting, the rarely punished rotational fouling. You can call out the official for a woefully sub-standard performance without it being the main reason why we took one point instead of three. The main reason was us.
We didn’t pick up from where we had started after that equaliser. When we experienced similar performances at the back end of last season we used our lack of pace and creativity due to the absences of Mesut Ozil, Aaron Ramsey, and Theo Walcott. That isn’t the case now. We have bought pace aplenty. Alexis has it, Welbeck has it (and both of those players put in a full shift yesterday), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain has it, although this was an off day for the Ox.
That we fell behind at the start of the second-half was all of our own making. Jack allowed Huddlestone unfettered passage down the right flank and his cross was headed home by Hernandez who caught the BFG on his heels. We awaited a response. Hull had their third choice goalkeeper on as a substitute. Surely we would pepper the goal now, but no. He wasn’t required to make a save until the final five minutes as we continually sought to weave our way through the backline with one pass too many time and again.
That tactic may have been understandable. Although the excellent premier League debutant, Hector Bellerin, and Kieran Gibbs ruled the flanks, crosses into the box were meat and drink for Hull’s battallion of big men. There has to come a point, however, when someone takes responsibility and gets the shot away at the end of these intricate exchanges.
In the six minutes added on, although most thought it should have been more, we got the equaliser when finally Alexis threaded the ball through for Danny Welbeck to apply a clever finish. We nearly snatched the points at the death but the chance fell to Gibbs, not Sanchez or Welbeck, and the ‘keeper saved.
So to another inquest in the pub of choice. Good people lifted each other. I’d like to say that this was just one of those days and in the words of D:Ream ‘Things can only get better’, and doubtless they will, but there have been too many of these careless draws already this season. Five in eight starts should be something of a wake up call. Yes, we may point at the ludicrously long injury list, but that eleven that started yesterday should have had too much quality and technical ability for a workmanlike Hull. The supposed weak links, Bellerin and Monreal, had excellent games I thought. Jack and Santi, dominant in the opening spell, lost their control of the midfield a little too easily thereafter.
The manager and his staff need to lift and inspire their troops for a batch of winnable fixtures, but yesterday was the first of those and we came up short again. It’s true that the title is won after Christmas, but equally true that it can be lost beforehand. The gap between Chelsea and us looks worryingly large right now.
167 Responses to “Frustration Grows As Gunners Draw Again”
Thirst …..and read also.
Will this be our position when the league concludes?!
🙂
Thanks for the measured report Holic. Another match performance full of disappointments. A beer or 2 post match in the company of friends lessens the gloom a little and re-affirms our belief that it will change for the better soon.
We do appear to be playing just the one way which makes it easier for teams to counter-act against – unless we are on top form. Sadly that is rarely happening at the moment. It does seem to be more than just the disruption caused by the constant list of injuries and the bedding in of new signings. We do not appear to be as good as the sum of our parts and for that the manager bears full responsibility. In my view, it has been an underlying theme for some period now and you do begin to wonder if he has got it in him to get us playing week in / week out to our true potential. As the saying goes, past performance doesn’t guarantee future results!
Trev, your late post in last drinks re pricing and corporatism of our club…..on the money! We are truly considered customers, not supporters, as far as the club is concerned!
Arsenal have lost 75 league games since the Invincibles era and almost a third of them, 22, have been to United or Chelsea. They particularly tend to crumple when the opposition is from Stamford Bridge and that was an intriguing line from Keane the other day about the modern dressing-room culture of teams posting celebratory selfies on Twitter, sometimes from fairly routine wins, and what it said to him about a “lack of characters and good lads”.
Guardian link to a pretty good article that also publicises Amy Lawrence’s book. The article is nothing new but it’s worth a read.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/oct/18/arsenal-arsene-wenger-pizza-back-on-menu
Game over….for another year. If I don’t buy food I generally don’t eat food…when Mr Wenger doesn’t buy defenders defensive stability and clean-sheets are always going to be in short supply. Last season he got away with it! Sad footballing times but nothing will change, Mr Wenger no doubt will get us 3rd/4th place again but then again, his luck may run out this term.
Cheers H!
And cheers Cynic. I was sort of trying to put a similar argument together on Twitter yesterday. We’ve spent money – lots of it, on quality, but we just don’t look like a team with any fucking cojones at all, anymore. Quite sad. I genuinely believe for the first time ever, that the players no longer respond to Le Boss’ management style, as they should.
Can he turn that around? Time’s running out I’m afraid.
As said by someone not a million miles from here did the FA Cup win, ‘only paper over cracker’?
Anyways the sun is shining here in BN11 and I’m off out for a few lunch time pints with John the Bastard, putting the world to rights. Aint such a bad life really.
Top post @149 in the previous drinks, Trev. Now to read the Guvna.
Measured analysis H. I agree that Bellerin, Monreal, Alexis and Welbeck were not disgraced. Others were unfortunately.
We badly need need a Vieira type presence on the field and in the dressing room. However we clearly also badly need that type of person in the coaching team too.
One CB signing this January is not going to turn this team around I am afraid.
And even if we continue to make a fortune out of selling water 🙂 it’ll only go to KSE for ‘services’.
On a slightly different, though still disturbing, note, I talked to some Hull fans on the tube on the way to the match. They were pleasantly surprised that their match tickets for the Emirates were “the cheapest away tickets we’ve had all season.” So, the Arsenal season ticket holders are sponsoring Silent Stan’s lifestyle, away fans, at £26 a pop (yesterday) are clearly not.
A glass of water and a dry crust please barman.
Desperately sad for the first time since the boss took over I can’t defend him any more,the book stops with him he has been found out to many times now I for one am not surprised when the likes of hull take two points off us.this stuberness in every fucking window is beyond reckless no dm when we’re crying out for one is criminal.cant find a cb do me a favour..motivation is his game far too many times have we been found wanting in that department.i have just watched his interview with bbc embarrassed for such a great man hates been asked about DM or back up centre half personally it would have been a centre half to play next to kos,have read trevs post from the last set of drinks to say the fans are taking it up the back door is an understatement that is just wrong them prices are a scandal.sorry for the rant but I have not been in this bar in weeks because I have just found all things arsenal like Groundhog Day.
All doom and gloom in the bar, then.
Luckily for me, I start a new job tomorrow, in Cambridge. Looking at the run of the railway lines, I might even be able to get down to the Ems for the occasional midweek game.
UTA COYG
‘holic. wonderfully scribed, as usual, on these deflating type of matchdays; how you manage to keep your composure is a wonder. One phrase from your report stands out:
“There has to come a point, however, when someone takes responsibility and gets the shot away at the end of these intricate exchanges.”
I won’t repeat in detail what I’d stated in yesterday’s drinks, but I do think it’s become somewhat of a psychological barrier for these players to take shots when a lot of them get blocked by a clogging defense, which leads to the deadly “just one more pass” syndrome. Santi must lead the league in having shots blocked.
Maybe one (tongue in cheek) solution is to have the Arsenal play both matches against sides like Mrs. Doubtfire’s at the away grounds, as these mid table teams’ supporters want them to play some football and that gets the game to open up much more.
Just a conversation-starter this as I don’t have the answer myself, but does anyone else think that Arsenal are a better side without Wilshere in it? I was thinking about our three best runs of form over the last couple of seasons (the first one in 2012/13 when we came back after that abject defeat at WH Lane in March to go on a run to snatch 4th from Spurs, the second at the beginning of last season when we went on an epic run of wins after the opening day defeat by Villa, and finally, after the hammering at Goodison last season, we won our last 4-5 games to tie up 4th place once again and obviously won the FA Cup). Correct me if I’m wrong, but all these runs coincided pretty much with Wilshere injured/out of the side. Also, he didn’t start either of our two best performances this season so far (Villa & Galatasaray – relative mediocrity of those opponents accepted).
I know it’s a delicate subject because the lad is undoubtedly talented, and he’s a homegrown player and has been touted for so long as the next ‘great hope’ for Arsenal and England. But I really think now for him to progress, his ‘game management’ has got to increase two-fold. I know there’s a general tendency in our media (and to some extent, our own support), to see Ozil as the main problem as he doesn’t play with the supposed ‘spunk’ and drive of a Wilshere, but conversely, I really think Wilshere could do with studying videotapes of Ozil, and perhaps Wilshere should be giving way in the playmaker role to Ozil, rather than vice versa. Wilshere needs to get far more diversity and efficiency into his game. It’s an age-old football truism, that the ball will always travel faster than a player, and Wilshere – especially as so much of the play comes through him as our playmaking central midfielder – needs to move the ball on much quicker and look to play simple balls to feet a lot earlier in the build-up. Wilshere’s game seems built almost entirely on the notion that when he gets the ball, he will only release it once he’s committed the man in-front (either through trying to dribble past him, or in nicking a pass to a team-mate at the last moment). While some of the time of course you need people to commit defenders and ‘break the line’, if you do it all the time, it becomes predictable – and the problem with Wilshere is that he neither has the long legs, speed or strength to make that sort of dynamic midfield play permissible (a la Vieira, Yaya Toure etc), and also, his diminutiveness means that he’s liable to be knocked off the ball a lot which leads to two things: 1) he loses possession, and he’s flat on his back and out of the game while a team counterattacks, and 2) even if he hasn’t lost possession and – as he often does – he wins a free-kick, he’s continually slowing the play down, enabling teams to get back in and close us down. As I said before, he needs to learn to be far more efficient, then that variety will work in his favour. If he passes the ball on quickly four times out of five in a particular position, then the one time he actually drives forward with the ball and tries to commit defenders, it creates variety/surprise, and puts the element of doubt in the defender’s mind for the rest of the game. This is the sly, continuity, ‘recycling’ work that Ozil does that most observers don’t see, but is so crucial to the attacking efficiency of a side.
I think Wilshere can make the leap, but (and this is where the murky area of Wenger’s developmental/tactical management of senior players comes into it – I think Wenger’s too much of a laissez-faire manager), he now needs to take that final step forward. As things currently stand, in a hypothetical scenario where all our squad were fit (you can all laugh now!) and we were playing a massive tie tomorrow, Wilshere wouldn’t be close to my first XI, which incidentally would be: Szczesny; Debuchy, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Gibbs; Arteta, Ramsey, Ozil; Walcott, Welbeck or Giroud, Sanchez.
For Wilshere to develop as an aspiring top-level European side’s central midfield player, he’s got to add that final piece of the jigsaw to his game, and incidentally, has got to contribute more goals to the team. 3-4 goals a season doesn’t cut the mustard I’m afraid, and have you seen how poor his England goals/assists record is too (and considering how shite some international sides are)?! As an aside, I openly admit that the pressure/scrutiny on Wilshere would be eased if he had a world-class, authoritative DM alongside him, but for the time being he doesn’t, and that doesn’t negate his need to improve anyway.
Rather than lay the blame on a particular player at any particular time, I would rather think that the current team dynamic needs a bit of tweaking.
We are currently looking like a team of damn fine individual talents that can impress superbly on the day but when it comes to the team just does not seem to gel into a cohesive unit.
Whether the reasons behind this are because of fatigue, injury, team formation, tactics, integration of new players or otherwise, would be anyone’s guess.
As for now, I would be a little patient to see if we manage to fuse and play as a team with the players we currently possess.
😀
I wasn’t laying blame on Wilshere per se BB, I was just taking a detour into an ‘overview’ if you like of his development to date. I was also trying to draw a correlation between as you say the present dysfunction of a team with fine individual players, and the fulcrum or ’emblem’ of this side of samey diminutive midfield/attacking players being Wilshere.
I do however think a fit Ramsey returning to at least ninety-percent of his all action, box-to-box, strong tackling, goal threat best, will be a major filip for the balance of the side too.
I think it is a fair bet we will have a variety of opinions expressed on here in the next couple of days. Totally understandable too.
As ever, keep it respectful if you can, thank you. 😉
Sounds like we missed you at the ‘watering hole of choice’ yesterday, Holic. That’s a pity. We saw the game through a similar lens, albeit from opposite sides of the pitch.
Right at the end, I was relieved by the capture of a single point from an encounter in which Arsenal should undoubtedly have taken three, and comfortably.
This was a frustrating day out at the Emirates; excruciating time-wasting tactics commenced by the visitors midway through the first half were compounded by Arsenal’s midfield’s inability to find the key to open a ten-man defense. Hull had not come to entertain nor win, they had come not-to-lose at any cost.
We scored two excellent goals, Sanchez and Wellbeck are two of four outstanding acquisitions made by Arsene Wenger in the closed season. These strikes were neutralized, however, by a first goal that should never have stood and a second that our BFG will, no doubt, lose sleep over for some time.
Bellerin was excellent at right back. He’s a real prospect and another great Wenger find. Monreal did well at CB – although it must be said that, apart from the occasional corner, Hull offered little as an attacking force. The Ox will have much better days.
The arrival of Ramsey and Campbell for Wilshere and Flamini brought about an uptick in the tempo and guile of our play. This was Campbell’s best contribution so far. Ramsey looked strong, it was great to see him back as it will be to see the return of Debussy, Koscielny, Arteta, Ozil, Diaby, Gnabry, Walcott and Giroud. (Of-course, everyone realizes that the absence of these eight is entirely down to Arsene Wenger’s incompetence. That goes without saying.)
We need to be within six points of the leaders at Christmas. The season finishes in May. The imminent return of Walcott and Gnabry will be a welcome spur to the challenge that narrowing the gap represents.
There was a lot of anger around yesterday. The Ref was the principal target but the crowd’s frustration at our lack of purpose in the second half created an unpleasant atmosphere. It was only in the last 10 minutes of the game that we the fans united in our support, a strange and sad afternoon in the stands.
As for the game, plenty has already be said and I have very little to add. I loved Bellarin at the Ems Cup and he is a youngster to watch. I was fearful for Rambo when he entered the fray and breathed a sigh of relief when he walked off in one piece. The Ox was dreadful, his worse game yet and Jack who ran the show in the first quarter lost his cool as frustration took over.
Sanchez and Wellbeck give me hope for better things to come but disappointment and and a sense of foreboding prevail. Arsene you have a job on your hands to inspire this team to play to their potential. We are in for a long season me thinks.
COYRs
@ 15 Gregoire
Apologies if it seemed that I was in any way targeting your post or defending Wilshere in any way (for what it’s worth there are many games where I prefer he sat out and others given a chance! Thought Campbell was really good when he came on for instance.)
I was I think rather subtly (or not) hinting that maybe Arsene should change personnel or tactics with regards to who we face and the current fitness of the regulars and maybe rotate a bit more. Thought Bellerin looked real lively and can only get better with more game time as with Campbell and if the regulars are not performing at their peak why not rotate if it’ll help.
😀
Much appreciated kind words from Uply, bath, DanC.
I was chatting to Steve T last night and said I was expecting a fair bit of abuse for my @149 in the previous drinks. He said there was nothing to disagree with.
When I find the above mentioned folks agreeing with me, I know there is something wrong.
And when Esso, who is the rawest, purist kind of Gooner there is, writes his @6 above, I know there is something very wrong.
We have so many players who are all the same, that it becomes difficult to fit them all into the same side. Surely the idea is to rotate similar players when necessary, before they incur fatigue injuries. But all our midfielders, for example, are so similar, and so injured, that there is either no possibility, or no tactical point in rotating.
So we finish up with attacking minded midfielders playing right side one week, left side the next, holding the week after, giving no real defensive protection so that the onus for that falls on our forwards.
Those midfielders are, by the way, the ones who are deemed not too old, or too recently back from injury, to be risked two games in a row.
When Welbeck and Özil were playing ‘9’ and ’10’ we seemed finally to have found some shape and attacking purpose.
I’m afraid that once we were pegged back yesterday, after a brilliant opening spell, our army of four foot ball wizards reverted to panic mode.
It really does look like Plan A is ‘pass the ball around until something inevitably opens up”. Well, increasingly, it is not opening up.
As we all know, there is no Plan B.
Bathgooner said the rest @8.
Anyone see Corporal Jenk’s cross for W Ham’s first goal yesterday ?
A beaut.
Not sure he will acquire the defensive nous for us but there just might be a bit of a Gareth Bale in there somewhere.
A better looking one, granted. 😉
Sounds like the ideal man to replace Wenger 😉
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29680771
Great write up, by the way Holic.
Don’t know how you remain so measured.
Let’s be real here for a minute, honestly do any of you guys think we can win the league again with Wenger in charge? This players don’t fear Wenger anymore, they are taking after his character.
Gregoire said it well “laissez faire” attitude. That’s what we are seeing right now. These teams we keep drawing with can’t match our talent, so what’s is the problem.
None of the usual encouragement received from drinking in this bar
Very sad exchange of views most of which I feel are right on the money. The usual sensible and measured tone from Holic provides good perspective -it probably helps to write the account on the following day!
I thought Trev summed things up very well yesterday. While I love Arsenal, I feel a certain unease about being ripped off by the current regime. I remember huge angst when the standing areas were abolished and the North Bank Stand was built at Highbury. The board got dog’s abuse for the bond issue. I bought one and found my season ticket discounted to something just over £250 a season from memory.That deal lasted ten seasons!! That covered the double Cup success in 1993, the double season in 1998 and another double in 2002.There wasn’t a huge increase in 2004 for the Invincible season. But now we see ever increasing costs of merchandise(if you go into the Armoury its always packed and you can queue for ten minutes to pay-I would estimate the average bill when I was last there was about £60). The food is pre-packaged, relatively tasteless and the beer is overpriced and indifferent. Its not quite like Wembley where it feels like a food hall but its close. It breaks my heart to see proper supporters and their children priced out of watching the team. Esso is a great example and sadly I know personally about four others.
But I think we could stomach the rising costs if the football side was working properly. I am one of Wenger’s hardest taskmasters on here. I have enormous respect for his wisdom and achievements but he does earn £8 million a year and I do expect VERY high performance for that. I know a lot of excellent CEOs in my business who are brilliant at their jobs, control huge workforces, are subject to massive scrutiny and who work extraordinarily hard and none of them earn anywhere near that figure. Importantly, none of them would also metaphorically fail to find a centre back or DM if their company needed it.
“Sorry but we failed to find a processing plant when we trued so we have no way of producing our product with all the latest modifications” Can you imagine the response to that claim from someone running a business? Apart from anything else boards would not tolerate such an oversight . Interestingly a lot of people suggest the board are quite happy to leave Wenger to decide on football matters but there has to be some accountability. I will pay top dollar to watch Arsenal willingly but I would like the feeling that we are able to compete with our rivals in the league or CL. When the window closed with such an incomplete squad that hope flew out of the window . We were only playing for at best third place –and it didn’t need to be like that. That was what gave rise to the frustration yesterday.
Before the game there were grave misgivings that we could beat HULL!!! on our own ground. As it happens those misgivings were totally justified. The first forty three minutes of the second half were a directionless shambles, partly caused by a savage injury list but then that in itself is a cause of huge frustration as well. The second goal was an awful one to give away just like Palace’s goal, Manchester City’s second and Tottenham’s goal. Defensively we have been very mediocre and we have a sum total of six senior defenders for four places, one of whom is nineteen and has never played centre back before he joined us. It comes to something when the excellent young Bellerin is one of the beacons of the team in his full league debut. So while we appreciate the enormous debt of gratitude to Wenger for his achievements we also expect that we can fight for the very top, not the level below that .
Ttg@26, all what you said. And if I must add, I think because of all that Wenger has done for the club, he is as big as the club now if not bigger. If Wenger decides to stay five more years, without winning shit, the board will still keep him there. There lies the problem, I don’t think anyone should have that much power over an entity, especially if they are not producing at the right level. I love the guy, but there comes a time when we just have to accept that and move on. Change is hard, but necessary sometimes. Am not saying he has to go now, but we can’t keep fighting for 4th place year in year out, it’s frustrating.
I reckon the squad will click between now and Christmas and go into demolition mode from January onwards slaughtering all and sundry.
Or maybe not.
Anyway, I still think it’s a bit early to go into one.
But then I’m a bit like that.
Sorry I missed you BtM. Couldn’t make pre-match but flitted between the two ‘gardens’ post match.
Hope you are right Larry. 😉
SAG,
As you said, “let’s be real here for a minute” ……..
I don’t want to turn this into a pro or anti Wenger thing. Personally, I don’t think the club would be remotely close to where we are, had it not been for Arsene Wenger.
My sense of being ripped off, apart from the sheer prices we have to pay, is this:
Since 2006 I have quite happily gone along with the prices and the youth policy as the necessary consequence of building the new stadium. That was to be the means to the end which saw us competing with the very best.
The very best, in the meantime, have morphed into a band of financially doped teams that we simply cannot compete with on a pound for pound basis. If we want Jo Bloggs, and Chelsea or Man City want Jo Bloggs, unless Jo Bloggs has some deep inner yearning to play for The Arsenal, then he is gone.
I have no problem understanding or accepting that.
What I do struggle with is the double speak that emanates from the boardroom. Ivan Gazidis proclaiming our ability to “of course be able to afford star players and pay star wages”, while at the AGM a couple of days ago warning that we “don’t have as much cash as some people think”.
Well, Ivan, why do they think that ?
Could it be because we have been told for season after season that we now have the means to compete, while the manager has been hung out to dry by the board, time after time, and clearly has not had the means to compete.
Well, now, according to every analyst who should know, we do have the means to compete. So, is it now only down to the manager ?
We now have something else too.
We have a hopelessly unbalanced squad, an ever worsening raft of injuries, and the highest prices in football.
I’m happy to get behind whoever pulls on the Arsenal shirt, but don’t promise me Kun Aguero and serve me up Chu Young Park. Don’t promise me caviar and famously continue to serve me up sausages.
I don’t mind watching the youth development team, if necessary, but I don’t expect to pay top top Champions League prices for the pleasure.
When you think of how big the tv contract is and how big it is likely to be next time, Premier League clubs should be cutting prices across the board instead of chucking it at players. Give something back to the fans. All clubs can afford to do it, and next time if the tv contract does hit the predicted £4billion it should be a mandatory requirement to cut prices.
We keep hearing all this stuff about FFP and salary caps but if clubs were forced to cap ticket prices, that would in turn “persuade” them to live within their means.
Trev, am with you in regards us not been where we are now without Wenger. This might sound crazy, but I really want to know why we charge the highest ticket price in world football.
And trev, what do you think about Wenger moving upstairs in a year or two and let’s get someone else in who will have the hunger, I don’t think he has it anymore, he is just going thru the emotions right now.
Good measured post ‘holic.
As BtM says, stay 6 points from the leaders going into the new year and it’s all still on. Arsene, regardless, still has some major soul-searching and self-reflection to do before and come the January transfer window if all still remains open. No more delusions of grandeur and rather more insight and reality checking.
@Gregoire,
On Wilshere, his inconsistency is the main problem and that’s both his and the manager’s responsibility to recognise and resolve. As Trev rightly points out, rotation of the midfield personnel should be a given and Wilshere is one.
Gregoire @ 13,
I like where you’re coming from. Szczesny; Debuchy, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Gibbs; Arteta, Ramsey, Ozil; Walcott, Welbeck or Giroud, Sanchez looks good. I’d nudge Arteta out for Diaby in your “all fit” scenario. And just think of the all-international bench we have in support!
Them’s real quality sausages and I’ll take them any time over caviar – tastes like seaweed and I hate the way these slimy little balls get stuck between your teeth. Please don’t promise me that 🙂
Hey, Dapper Dan. Key your chin up and keep applying the hair pomade 🙂
Hi everyone.
Holic, nothing to argue with there. Injuries aside, we still should have won with that lineup. All this chatter about no ‘Plan B’, what are your thoughts on that …
A real pity that some players can’t motivate themselves. They are all paid handsomely, aren’t they. But we reward them by following them on Twitter and sporting their shirts … All we fans ask is that they give it their all.
Trev, no disrespect meant here, but if everyone boycotted the concession stands, you can bet your bottom dollar, prices would drop, sharpish. 😉
Arsene has assembled some of the best talent available, we’ve seen what their capable of and we’re not going to let them off the hook, easily. Reinforcements from WITHIN, are trickling back too. Partnerships rekindled and new bonds forged. Will be exciting to behold, I promise!
Right; I’m going to try and keep this short since I find myself unable to muster the patience to plough through almost all of the longer contributions above, so I imagine the same will apply to potential readers of this one. I’m sure the usual proportion of those above are excellent, and it’s my loss that I’m too impatient to have read them in full.
I’m about to say something that I fear will be unpopular.
I think that “pass the ball around until something opens up” is a legitimate tactic, one that has served us well in the past and one that is likely to serve us well in the future. Not to put too intellectual a slant on matters, but surely the idea of any game is to pose your opponents problems and make them take decisions. The more decisions they have to take the more they will get wrong.
Thus, “Do I follow Santi’s run or cover the possible pass to Welbeck?”, “Do I drop off to cover Sanchez or go in for a tackle?”. Sadly, with a bank of three and a bank of six to get through, we probably require the opponents to get more than one of those decisions wrong for us to create a chance, but surely that’s not a good reason to abandon the tactics that the team has been built to play and try another one.
Don’t forget that without a truly appalling refereeing mistake, one that even the MoTD “experts” had to describe as appalling, we would have held a lead for long enough that Hull would have had time to realise they needed to move the bus that they had parked across the pitch.
Granted, we gifted them another goal, which is something we can and should do something about, but do, please let us try to remember everything that happened in the game.
Sorry, I seem to have failed the “keep it short” test.
COYG
Gregoire@13: clear-eyed analysis. I agree that at this point Jack doesn’t make the starting line-up. He is the sort of player around whom the midfield needs to be built if the best is to be seen of him. The Plan B?
Pangloss: Nothing wrong with trying to work the ball through parked buses. It is probably the best way to open up space in such circumstances. But it requires two elements: excellent finishers with high conversion rates and plenty of runners getting into the most advanced spaces in the box to receive the final pass. We have been able to field neither with any consistency for many seasons.
Cynic: there is a pan-European market for the top players but not a pan-European market for TV rights. While that disparity persists there is no chance that clubs in the rich TV markets will feel they can use some of their rights money to subsidise ticket prices and still stay competitive in buying top players.
It is a civil war out there, between the Arsenal fans, so many disappointed and angry. I am genuinely surprised by the reaction of majority of the fan base. To be precise I am surprised that so many of them are surprised and shocked especially by the latest result.
I am not going to say that yesterday performance and result were fully expected, but the signs were there basically from the start of the season.
We are not a title winning squad and it was obvious since the moment we failed to cover properly defensive positions. However it is not all lost and I feel that we have a decent squad, good and talented players, but some sort of an unbalanced team.
I’ll try to explain.
One of the problems in the games so far this season that I’ve noticed, is quite simple.
We have to many players that like the ball in their feet, and not in space in front of them.
Since we signed Alexis and started playing Wilshere in the starting line up, we have to many players that like to dribble, make late and risky passes. For a long time I thought that lack of pace was the problem with our team, but we have signed Welbeck and Alexis lately and we are quite a pacey side at the moment.
We have pace in the squad. What we lack is runners!
We had only one player willing to run in space yesterday. Danny Welbeck. However we used him more in a Giroud role in the game and I don’t think he is suited to that yet (he will be better tho, great talent)
Alexis for all his pace is not a runner behind the defenses, he is more of a playmaker.
So is Cazorla. And Ozil. And Poldi is not a runner either. Add Giroud there too. And Wilshere of course. Ox is a little bit of both, but he is one of the players that makes me really wonder (one day he is a word class with ability to score crackers, on another is a Sunday League player with worst first touch!)
Only two offensive minded players that are runners in our squad are Ramsey and Theo. It is not a coincidence that our game improved when Ramsey came in and start running into pockets of space, confusing defenders and creating havoc.
The way we played yesterday reminded me of Arsenal couple of years ago. Possession with no end product. I cant blame Arsene for that tho, as he had not much of a choice considering Ramsey wasn’t fully fit and Theo is not available. But I can blame him for not trying different approach, one that will better suit our current players. Lets say one that is more direct, more determinate and more pragmatic. That is because I feel that with our current set of players you can’t rely on possession.
If you want to play possession football you just can’t do it with two slow CB’s like Mert and Monreal and not that much faster DM in Flamini, because you have to expect your defensive players to take big part in the building of the attacks, as we do. For that to be the case our CB’s are often close to the half line, with Mert often taking the Arteta’s role and trying to find a pass forward, either to the RB or to one of the CM’s. The problem arises when our attackers who tend to dribble or try a late risky pass (for the reasons mentioned above), lose the ball, and that one misplaced pass (Alexis) or one dribble to many (Wilshere), leads to dangerous counter for the opposition and our defenders are so far up on the pitch and unable to defend properly (second Chelsea goal is the perfect example).
I expect some things to change once Theo is back, and once Ramsey takes Wilshere’s place. I agree with Gregoire@13 and Dr.Faustus in previous drinks about Wilshere, but have a feeling that Arsene will continue what is on his mind for this season and. For all his football talent and decent skills Wilshere can’t dictate the game, lacks positional awareness, is a weak link defensively and most crucially cant change the tempo when/if needed (one of the required attributes for player in that position).
In the next games, I expect more penetration, more running behind the defenders, more directness, more urgency to shot, more tendency to change the tempo, confuse the opposition, to be much more unpredictable and I expect us start winning.
Roll on Wednesday.
Hello gooners.
Top post again Guv’, love the way you always manage to keep calm while many around you are losing it, thank you sir.
Sterling work by top holic Trev, great posts mate. As you know I only sporadically get the chance to visit THOF, but when I do, there’s no way I would partake in the HT refreshments available in the stadium. They can keep their overpriced, plastic bottled, subsidesed and sponsered “beer”, as for a hot dog, well as the real Dr F and tabs would tell ya; “solids are for softies”. 😉
As for yesterday’s game, I said a lot yesterday and I stick by it, not good enough and we only have ourseles to blame.
Gregoire @ 13.
Yes, yes, yes. I couldn’t agree more. I’ve often said here that I feel he (JW) unbalances our team. I like the guy, can’t fault his effort, but I’ve never been his biggest fan, nor have I ever bought into the hype that surrounds him (I’ve been told to look harder, but still haven’t seen it). Don’t get me wrong, I believe that there is a player in there, although not the great white hope many have billed him as, however, I feel that Wenger’s stuborness (for lack of a better word) to continuely deploy him in the number 10 position, when we have players far better equiped to fulfil that roll, is of detriment to our team and style of play.
It worked for AW with Ramsey, but Aaron was willing to learn from his mistakes and adapted his style accordingly, I have seen nothing (yet) that would convince me that JW can do the same. Yesterday was Jack in a nutshell, started brightly, had a few amazing touches. One pass over the top was sublime. Then he fell back into his usual pattern of getting the ball, head down, run forward, get kicked, end up on the floor, sometimes earning a free kick, but most of the time ending up on the turf with his hand aloft as the ref waved play on. In the end he banjaxed himself, out of frustration I may add, making a stupid challenge that could well have earned him a red.
I’m not pinning all our woes on him, it’s definitly not all his fault, afteral, he doesn’t pick himself and decide where he gets to play, plus I hope I’m wrong and he ends up fufilling the potential many think he has. But I do agree with your premiss that we look and play better when he is not there.
Excellent summary bu ‘Holic and some great posts thereafter.
Fully agree with Gregoire and H2H about Jack’s continuing inconsistency and his lack of willingness/ability to cut out the problems of excessive dribbling, holding on to the ball too long and most worryingly the tendency to lose cool at the slightest provocation. We play more cohesively and intelligently when Jack is not at #10. On his day he can bring some special abilities — he was excellent in the draw against City — but he is not a reliable consistent no.10 for a club with title aspirations. At least not yet.
Outside the context of all the various highly relevant narratives about finances, Arsene’s legacy, perennial injury concerns etc. and the myriad nuanced (some not so) approaches they are met with in this bar, I think many of us find certain immediate patterns of problems highly concerning.
Consider this, yesterday we had TEN corners, a few crosses, a handful of free-kicks from a distance where balls were delivered on the penalty box. We have a very tall striker and a giant of a CB. Yet, there was only ONE header on target and that too by one of the shortest players on the pitch in Alexis. Was there even a single goalscoring opportunity created from any of the corners?
That has got nothing to do with injury or international break or not being able to afford the very best players. It is all about simple preparedness and doing the basics right.
Or the way we conceded the second goal, with no one in the midfield or defense putting pressure on the ball and Jack basically letting the winger pass by and deliver a cross. How can a team of professionals be so turned off in the pitch?
Preparedness. Concentration. And add to that pragmatism.
Last year we managed to be consistent playing a pragmatic 4-2-3-1, and even then the lack of pace and strength of our defensive pivote were exposed against superior oppositions. A shortcoming that has not been addressed in the transfer window. Yet we go for an unbalanced 4-1-4-1 (in the context of our squad) where the defensive screen is treated as an afterthought. And still we don’t do high press consistently and let the opposition run at acres meters of empty spaces just in front of our defense. Which top quality team plays like that anymore?
Lurky @ 41: Great point about the runners. I think Ox should be asked to be a bit more Theo and lot less Jack when we find ourselves in this type of problems against packed defense. Yesterday was one of his poorest performance — awful first touch and some poor passes, though he had a few moments — but Ox has the intelligence to change the mode of his playing within a single game.
And in that respect I would love to see Campbell given more chance. He did everything right today, nothing too flashy or memorable except for the defensive trackback and tackle, but all the runs and passes and one-twos were clearcut signs of a calm decision maker.
We also really need to make set-pieces count against oppositions that would ‘park the bus’ and simply clear for a corner or foul a little ahead of the penalty box. If we get altogether 15-odd set-piece chances in a game and cannot score even one teams like Hull will gladly take that offer.
BtM, Pomade well and truly applied my glass-half full laddie! A wee dram bar-keep. COYBG! Up the Arse!
Chums, Arsene intimated his displeasure with Jack already, in his trademark subtle way. No Mourinho style bashing of players, in public, needed (refers to his answer about Jack being ok to play Wednesday, IF he’s picked).
But it’s a team endeavor, isn’t Dr Faustus. Corners, they are EARNED, rarely awarded in error. So we get a lot of corners, which means our lads are doing something right!
But this is exactly where I feel not everyone is trying their Arsenal hardest. Too many of them are bystanders, not inserting themselves as they could. No short corners, please! And make sure the kick’s delivery is in the thick of things! Lunge, throw yourself forward, use any body part allowed 😉
Also think we try too hard in the final third. Over elaborate. Be selfish, if you see an opening, let it RIP! Hi hip hooray 🙂
Just to make a final point about my ‘playmaker’ analysis re: Wilshere vs. Ozil, I’ve thought of a nice analogy for why I prefer Ozil in the No. 10 role over Wilshere.
Hopefully a lot of you will be au fait with basic rugby tactics/terminology, but the qualities Ozil brings to a team (specifically in a more central role) is that of a good scrum half. His fitness, engine and intelligence are exceptional (hence why he’s always at the top of the distance-covered statistic – to many people’s surprise), and if you study a game closely, Ozil is either the first to the ball when there’s a break in possession (i.e. the famous ‘second ball’) or always next in position to receive a pass from the immediate teammate with the ball. And like a good scrum half, he’s usually already had a quick look ahead at the movement of players and the spaces in which to play, so that when he gets the ball, he can move it on almost immediately, with the minimum of fuss, and maximum of efficiency. Of course, I’m not saying he never loses possession, but if you play a scrum-half out of position on the right wing in tight spaces, you negate his qualities of passing and full spatial awareness (a point Trev has made before), and he’s also wasting a position much more suited to an explosive line-breaker (i.e. Walcott, Alexis or the Ox). Please any doubters re-watch the second half of the recent North London Derby, to see how it was Ozil’s subtle but incessant probing and intelligent recycling of possession that got us back into that game as Tottenham sat back after Chadli’s opener.
Of course, philistine English pundits only understand playmaking through the more superficial qualities that catch a simple mind’s attention (I call it the ‘Gerrardian Principle’ of raking long-range passes, running dynamically at defences, getting stuck into tackles), but to finish on the rugby analogy – do you want your playmaker to be a Scrum Half, a la Ozil, or an Inside-Centre (continually charging into the ‘gain line’ or chipping optimistically ahead – more Wilshere’s game?)
If you’re still reading, thanks for your patience with my rugby analogy, and I appreciate there are probably non-rugby playing nationals in this bar who haven’t got a frick about hat I’m saying, but in a nutshell – I’m outing myself very much as an Ozilite!
Hang in there Wengga! All these wanabees tellin us howt to do our business. Gave em an earful, today, I did. Know em all, since they was knee high. Shamed their mums, they did! Nowt given any more interviews, till their nappies been changed. Cause they be full of sh*t!
Dr. Faustus, I agree on Ox. We’ve agreed in some earlier drinks as much as I remember, that he is maybe the most talented player in the team, able to play in positions all over the pitch, including even as a striker. Arsene himself said that he sees him as a midfielder and I can see where he is coming from. He has a good physique, strong body, nice passing range ans is quite intelligent boy and a footballer. He had one or two good games there and was doing a really good job.
However, his basic strengths, his powerful shot, acceleration and nice dribbling skills are wasted there. That’s why I think his best position is on either wing.
As for Campbell, someone might laugh, but he reminded me of certain someone the first moment I saw him and continues to do that the more I see him.
The way he drives at defenders, the way he tracks back, changes pace, run-stop-run, tendency to cut from the right flank to the middle and then a thunder strike with his left.
Robben.
If only he learns that tight and close control of Robben’s …
Give em hell, Harry. You be the man! Always amuses me to think all fans think they observe something their managers haven’t already. Rather precious of them, but still quite naïve xx ☺
Lurky@41: agree with you about the runners in behind. See my @39. Ramsey and Theo’s absences have been costly in that regard.
Gregoie@47: you are on the button when you say Ozil moves the ball on quickly with the minimum fuss and maximum efficiency. It is what makes him so effective and yet also what makes him look not involved in games. But he needs runners to pass to.
abb @ 50: 🙂 I don’t think it is either naive or precious to point out the obvious flaws in a team’s performance on the pitch.
The ‘alternatives’ that is then proposed are obviously not as well-informed by all the different aspects of the team’s as well as individuals’ current state as that of the manager, and neither are the alternatives proposed or ideas forwarded have as much knowledge or experience or expertise as that of the manager, but that does not make the act of pointing out the plain and simple that of naivety, but rather of human desire to express ideas about something that we care.
I do not know whether you go to classical concerts or Jazz concerts frequently enough — my own attendance has dropped significantly since our son was born — but there are days, or even stretch of time, where a particular symphony or a Jazz ensemble would be audibly out-of-sync and small but noticeable things would go wrong.
People then talk about that. Critics write about it. They are not accused of ‘naivety’ because a James Levine or a Wynton Marsalis is a few millions times more of a musician and conductor/band-leader than your hoi polloi.
Gregoire @ 47, I don’t know much about rugby. But I am definitely an ozilite too. We are way much better when he plays the no 10 role. Don’t know what kind of experiment Wenger got going on. As experienced as he is as a coach, I will never know why he thinks Wilshere is a better no 10 than ozil. Forget the fact that we paid 42million for him.
Pangloss,
What NBN said about runs and top strikers is quite right.
The dilemma of whether to cover Santi’s run or the pass to Welbeck would be a genuine one if Santi, or any other of our players, was actually making those runs.
The last player we had who consistently ran past / ahead of the ball was Cesc Fabregas. At the moment the runs our players are making are behind or level with the ball far too much of the time.
Barcelona used to “pass the ball around” a lot but they had a focus to their attacks through Eto’o or Ibrahimovic or Thierry Henry himself. Alternatively, as they showed to devastating effect against us in the first of the two games at The Emirates, the front players would pull defenders around and create the space for Messi to run into.
Bayern Munich at The Emirates also gave us a tactical lesson with the way they pulled our defence around and drove through it having created the space.
By contrast, we pass the ball backwards and forwards across the pitch, eventually being pushed wide and putting in a cross which there is rarely anyone on the end of.
Sorry for the continued lack of optimism, but something broke in me this weekend.
I’m afraid the mismanagement of our squad has caught up with us and we are a long way from where we thought we were.
Sure some of it is down to injuries, but when isn’t it ? 🙁
SAG @ 53: If I may, I think (or guess) that Arsene’s reasoning is reverse. That is, Ozil is a much better option than Jack from the flanks — because Ozil has a better sense of space and can make things happen from the flanks — and to be able to fit both of them in the starting line-up that would be the optimal compromise. Again, it is just a guess.
I think Jack has a lot to learn in terms of tactical awareness and general game intelligence and I think he can learn it better on the wings. So if both are to be played together I think Ozil as #10 and Jack either rotating with Rambo in the box-to-box role or a dribbler-come-playmaker like Alexis from the right would be the better way to fit them together.
abb: Apropos my response @52, should have added a few smiley faces as I realize you had used ‘naive’ — to characterize our heated, albeit somewhat inconsequential, discussions about the failings of our team — in the fondest possible manner, not with judgment but charming acceptance of our own follies.
Much appreciated.
Gregoire @47,
Excellent stuff and I fully concur with your comparisons. I’m a rugger bugger too, and an Ozilite!
Cheers NBN.
Dr. Faustus, just saw this on twitter
https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B0VsTaACAAAiiz-.mp4
Check Wilshere’s position just before Diame first goal. What is he doing?! Can this be true?
Abb,
I agree it is dangerous and naive when fans underestimate the coach and overestimate their own opinion. On other hand it is almost equally dangerous and not that clever when the coach underestimates fans opinion and overestimates his own.
Especially in this modern days, when almost everyone has a possibility to use the statistic data from lets say Opta or Squawka. That sort of info was available only to elected people some 10 years ago.
Also days, when everyone has a chance to see the games, game situations as many times he wants, a thing that was a little miracle back in the days, when only managers had that pleasure.
Days when there are not unknown gems anymore, because if there is a good 15 year old player in Denmark, it is not just Arsene that knows about him. We all know him too.
Also days when fans from every corner in the world can offer opinions on the game and in debates you can hear more then 1000 different ones, not just opinions that your drunk neighbor can offer.
These are different modern times indeed, and that some old relict like Harry fails to accept it, is no surprise to me.
Lurky @ 49: Agreed that at this time of his career and our team’s need Ox would be better served flying on the flanks and not orchestrating things in the middle. But his versatility is indeed impressive.
I wouldn’t want any Arsenal footballer to be compared to with Robben, an excellent footballer though he is, but I can see where you are coming from. 🙂
I just hope he gets more chances. He never really looks out of place or lost or makes any avoidable mistakes, offensively or defensively.
Dr Faustus, hello!
Quoting Mr Rednapp “I’m the first to arrive in the morning and the last to leave in the evening.” I love football.”
Dare I say this is not true of all managers.
This forum is meant for opinions, and all are welcome.
But when holics call for Mr Wenger, to abdicate, with the misguided notion he has lost the plot, this gooner, will speak out, in his defence.
good to get a run
enjoyed the chance
shame about the result
but next time
Gregoire,
Some good stuff up there.
I’d like to think that Jack could become a quality playmaker and he still has a few years to catch up on Özil. As yet he is nowhere near Özil’s intelligence and game understanding, and he certainly has some maturing to do.
But, he had been improving lately – let’s forget yesterday’s efforts – and he has had an awful lot of the recent past out injured.
He could save himself several clatterings a game though by playing the ball a touch earlier now and then.
Avoiding injury is another thing that Özil is very good at – yes, I know – by not lunging in at 40-60 balls, but then he gets accused of not trying hard enough or not being brave enough.
Abb, excuse my ignorance but what concession stands ?
Did you mean the “cheap seats” ? ‘Cos there aren’t any.
If you meant the catering on the concourses, I see far fewer queues there than in the first seasons at The Emirates, but the prices keep squeezing up every year.
abb @ 60: Understood! And nothing to disagree on that stance.
I am not into extremes or absolutes, and Arsene Wenger is the reason many of us here, myself included, became Arsenal fans, and this Gooner surely wishes that Arsene would prove many of his detractors wrong this season, but rationally speaking he sees too many problems in the way the team is playing for which there are no obvious answers.
And about Ozil: just like last season in his absence we would look disjointed and our performances would be inconsistent. We would miss him in many of those “sure three pointer” matches where he does so much with and off the ball to create chances and give the team a cohesion. Then he will return and he would not be a Messi or a Ronaldo and some of us would complain about his lack of fighting spirit and whatnot.
I thought it was me supposed to be a broken record re Özilla, yet this entire round seems to be dedicated to praising the guy to the stars – regardless he is universally criticised outside the club (and inside by me) as a thumping disappointment. WHEN (if) he ever decides to play for us with the same intensity he applies to his international career, then we might see our money’s worth. But all I ever see of him in an Arsenal shirt is a player who does most of the easy things well, but rarely produces a match-winning assist let alone a motm performance which, as our most expensive (and most naturally-gifted) player, we have a right to expect.
And yet everyone says how wonderful he is for us. Really?
For mine he’s symptomatic of AW’s transfer policy, where he looks for what we need but rejects the absurd prices being asked and settles on what he can get (inevitably lesser players) for what he believes the ‘right’ price – ie, what players cost a decade ago. Consequently, with occasional exceptions (eg Sanchez, Debuchy, Chambers) we end up with compromises who are then asked to play out of position, either because he has someone in that position (ie Jack in the only position where Özil feels loved) or we have a hole in the side that someone has to fit into (ie, Mikel as DM). Then everything gets turned on its head by injuries and we have bandaid players all over the pitch doing jobs we haven’t got cover for.
Everyone knows we needed a CD, a DM and a striker before this season started. We still do, and turning wingers into No 9s isn’t working. Well it might if Alexis got the job, but what a waste that would be where he currently works his magic. Hurry back OG and Theo, the ship is sinking.
Öskar
…and ffs buy Hummels, Khedira and a striker in January AW!
Öskar
I’d honestly measure progress on our season to season points total….and to beat last year’s 79 point haul we’re going to have to be pretty bloody remarkable from here on in and essentially avoid draws. With 30 games left to improve on last year we’d need to manage;
W 22 D 3 L 5
that sort of objective could change from feasible to impossible over the next four or five games – so it’s high time to get some form together.
Note; I don’t think 80 points would see us finish higher than third, which after this frankly awful start would be a good accomplishment.
The last three titles were won with 86,89 & 89 points. We’d need to go on a 30 game run of
W 24 D 5 L 1
to reach 88 points…..
sigh
Tim, none of those scenarios is going to happen unfortunately. I don’t see this team going on any kind of runs,maybe draws. Not with our horrible injury record. Chelsea and Mancity pretty much have 1st and 2nd locked down. So we have to fight with whoever for the remaining two spots.
Oskar, apart from the ozil comment, am pretty much in agreement with all what you said.
We conceded with their first shot on goal? We conceded with their first headed chance?
Am I right?
We can still get 3rd of 4th, Dennis willing, and with a bit more compassion from the injury gods. It’s not like other contenders for the minor positions have such great form. We are, despite all, just 2 points off 4th and any sort of decent run should move us up the table.
Of course we are also just 4 points off the relegation zone, so it’s definitely time for upsock-pulling and digital extraction.
You think our performance on Saturday without Özil was any worse than with him in our other poor games this season, SAG? Hard to tell much difference from my perspective. I made him motm in one game, but he was pretty much anonymous otherwise, and that is just not good enough for a guy with his ability. Even if ‘played out of position’ (actually he switches around quite a lot most of the time) he should have more to offer more often.
Öskar
we have a decent squad of players but look truly broken as a team
we want to win but dont look like winning
we want to play a stylish brand of football, but look predictable
the team talk about belief and spirit but rarely show it on the pitch
we are becoming more reliant on pieces of Sanchez brilliance alone
first time players look better than the regular squad players
the coach looks increasingly frustrated, done and out of ideas
the bench looks quiet, submissive and shows little emotion
but the saddest part for me, is we are becoming really boring to watch
it is truly heartbreaking to watch this team stuff it up so often
it is simply time for a change before it is too late for Arsene to bow out with the full respect and dignity he so richly deserves as one of the most influential and important figures in the clubs history.
just a few thoughts
Second half showed how slow we were and how no one gave a flying toss about chasing the ball etc. Only Alex and Wellbeck were up for it.
Perhaps Wenger is too nice to them and let’s them get away with it more than any other manager. I know you need to praise your team but perhaps you need to give em an earful when is necessary to do so. These guys earn big bucks and if being nice is not helping perhaps a bollocking is required, few flying boots to sort them out too.
Just a thought!?! 🙂
Breaking news just in from German medical staff treating the injury to Mesut Ozil.
The expert leading the team, Dr. Oskar van Doggerel, has expressed his severe disappointment with the progress made so far.
“He is undoubtedly capable of overcoming this injury but in my opinion is simply not showing the right attitude” said van Doggerel. “He has been almost anonymous in the treatment room since he arrived and his attitude whilst laying back on the treatment table makes it look as if he doesn’t care. I realise that the treatment table is quite small but a close study of his heat map shows that he is barely moving around on it at all and certainly not what the English might call “getting stuck in.”
When questioned further, the good doctor Doggerel said that in his opinion Mr.Ozil showed an overall lack of intensity and despite once affording him a motm status, that he would not be getting any more favourable reviews until he was running around enough to pull the wires from the ultra-sound thingy to which he was attached, returning from his injury in world record time, single-handedly rescuing the Arse’s poor start to the season, finding a cure for ebola and ending war in the Middle East.
“Only then” said Herr Oskar “will I accept that he was not a panic buy and a luxury who must take the blame for his current injury, the overall injury problem at the Arsenal and inflated prices for poor quality food at the stadium. Finally, in answer to many e-mails, may I just repeat that I am in no way fixated on Mr.Ozil and I am not a broken record – whatever that is.”
What the good doctor forgot to mention is that Ozil entered the treatment room from the left wing cutting inside, a moment that will certainly have a huge impact in the treatment.
Heh@ 72. 🙂
Rhubarb (the match, not the drinks).
And heh @72.
Heh @The News Wire. – 🙂
Massive heh @72 😀
Big heh @ 72!
One feels slightly more optimistic on Monday.
The result and the performance this Saturday leave the team and the manager with no illusion about the core problems (unlike in previous draws when we had found one reason or another to explain the result) and would most likely have a startling and sobering effect.
If there is one narrative that has been running through our performance this season it is this: instead of being quick and assertive in transitions we are labored and panicky.
This applies to our transition from defense to attack as well as the opposition’s transition from attack to defense.
Every time the latter happens, and there is a counter-attack on, no matter who the opposition is we look like conceding.
That needs to stop now. And I am sure Arsene and/or the team would no longer underestimate that problem.
DF I hope you are right in your analysis. I think we’ve had enough draws to last us a season.
@A Gooner, i agree whole heartedly about we being good to watch. I mean i have never felt so depressed to see us play the way we are as of now. Why on earth are we so slow, it seems it is in slow motion most times and bar the hustle bustle of a Sanchez, ox or a Welbeck, the rest of the team seem to be playing in a trance.
Arsenal played the most beautiful football in the land, they were a joy to behold. I do not expect it always but that is what this team is supposedly built on right, technically gifted, quick intricate passing and then the ingenuity to finish. Well right now it feels laboured. every step seems to be a sigh than a bustle, we dont have that bring it on and we will show you what we have got attitude.
It does ignite once in a while and those are days we get results, most other days it is dreary.
I know it sounds a rant but i rather wish it is read as a disappointment. I love to see us play the way we used to, we were joyous, moments of sheer magic team wise and not individual wise, now we are looking for a spark from an individual as the team seem jaded. If this is the case so early, what will happen when the dreaded nov-dec, feb- march time comes up.
On a positive note- Alexis Sanchez i love you, you exemplify what i want to see in every Arsenal player, you played on wed, travelled back and played the whole game and literally got us the point. Along with the odes of skill you have, it is the attitude of never giving up that makes me so happy to see you in our colours.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nigel-winterburn-arsenal-need-be-more-disciplined-defence-1470774
Did we do any worse against Hull City this weekend than we did in the FA Cup final? On the previous occasion we required extra time to pull it out after finishing normal time in a 2-2 draw. So over 180 minutes of football all of it played in London, and excluding that extra time in the FA Cup, we seem to be roughly on par with Hull City.
http://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1549485_628781483899853_4186087592013539931_n.png?oh=8acb01428210ad7f1a7f7afe1cf9c166&oe=54F06D6C&__gda__=1420917841_94160879d8f28a9d48a3b6c99092e44d
Some really top comments earlier by many of the regulars. Your mail on the last thread Trev was superb (and dovetails with Ttgs experiences too) and no doubt must have been difficult to write given the trouble and expense you take to go to games for someone who normally radiates positivity.
Gregoire in relation to your debate about Jack, I would say broadly that the current problems exist in the entirety of our midfield and not just with Jack. I think Ozil has been very poor at times and has shown a lack of physicality and work ethic that’s absolutely needed to survive in the PL. He’s going to have to overcome these issues whether he plays on the flank or down the centre! Rambo has been poor too and after having such a good season last year, he must now appreciate the importance of consistency to be truly considered “world class”. And as for DCM – well our complete lack of substance in this position is now just startling. Flamini (arguably the only natural DCM we have) is but a shadow of the player he was last year, and even then, I still thought his arrival at the club had far more to do with this price tag than his ability. I think this is where Wenger will strengthen in January. Morgan Schneiderlinn would be perfect, and he can cover at CH too and is a ready-to-go solution !
So for me we have a combination of issues from having new players bedding in, a spate of injuries which have culminated in an inordinate amount of varying combinations, a general lack of defensive discipline especially in midfield as well as being a little short at the back. I do think we’ve coped far better than we tend to realise at the back – Monreal and Bellerin were probably to only bright lights to take from the game at the weekend and Chambers has practically established himself already as a first team regular. Don’t get me wrong, its not ideal, but not buying a 4th choice CH in no way excuses the complacent and nonchalant manner in which we’ve collectively allowed teams to overrun us in midfield (did you see Huddlestone out-run Jack ffs!!).
And this nonchalance or complacency has been a regular problem in Wengers teams over the past few years. I thought we had addressed it somewhat last year when we found some discilpine. But I think we will always find it difficult to beat teams in the PL unless we’re prepared to graft and work. There’s something not right in this regard when the players who seem to be really showcasing their talents are all the new signings ffs…! Alexis, Welbz, Chambers and Debauchy have been the stand out players so far this season and its largely because they’ve been the ones who’ve worked the bloody hardest.
Hello peoples
This is a test, hope I pass 🙂
I really like Poldi.
😀
Cheers, Joe.
And especially agreed with your final paragraph. Sanchez played at midnight on Wednesday in South America. What a guy ! 😉
Good points Joe. I think it’s nice amid all the praise for Sanchez, Welbeck and Chambers that you don’t forget what a good signing Debuchy looked in the month or so before he got injured. What I think he added to our team, was that he looked streetwise, he played with a real drive and purpose, and he was a bit of a ‘hard-nut’ too. Added a bit more spite, dynamism and physicality to our mix. He was also a real handful at our attacking set-pieces, and I seem to remember it was his excellent shot which was parried out that set up Ramsey’s late winner v Palace.
Don’t get me wrong – Chambers has done well and has a lovely temperament to him (looks like a top class CB to me), and Bellerin will develop in time – but I look forward to Debuchy’s return in Dec/Jan.
When Debuchy returns, I hope Arsene plays Chambers in the DM role to see if he can develop there. Seen enough of Bellerin to say that he can be second in line after Debuchy.
We’ll still need to find Vermy’s replacement and I hope it’s someone with ample experience. Do not think that Koscielny is injury free, he seems to be carrying the old achilles injury which may just have a negative effect on his sharpness and pace.
With Theo and Diaby(hopefully) and Gnabry returning, we actually do have an abundance of midfielders, let’s hope Wilshere will get benched every now and then to give the others a chance and to give him some competition.
I still maintain that if we have most of our first team fit and able for the majority of the season, we’re only short a player or two, and they be defensive players. Our attack is more than capable once we gel.
🙂
Sack em all 🙂 sorted !
Arsenal at the mo seem to be like an Australian Acorn tree – Instead of grounding the roots and letting the little acorn blossom into a nice strong tree from the bottom up, The powers that be just keep adding pretty little green leaves but forgetting said tree has no foundation and is liable to be blown over by the slightest puff of wind. Looks pretty in fair weather but wouldn’t want to stand under it on a stormy day 🙂
A load of old bollocks I know but working out Arsenal has become a mighty head fuck 🙂 🙂
Up The Arse !
Harry mate! How’s yer mum? Keeping busy?
Things can’t be that bad if there’s only 92 posts on the Monday after Doomsday.
Make that 93…
In other dramatic news, Luke Shaw = Slim Boy Fat.
Ha ha Esso @ 92. We should include his dog Rosie, too! 🙂
Too funny @ 72. Would you consider writing under my moniker 😉
Lurky, Dr Faustus and Trev. I want to TY you gents for taking the time (and patience) to reply to my rantings, last nite xx I was locked out, and couldn’t answer you 🙁
Thank you Goonerholic, for letting me back in, so I can be with my friends xx
You will always be more than welcome here, abb 🙂
Very nice ‘holic. Shall try to behave! (most of the time 🙂 )
Dirty Mancs!
Yet again abysmal refereeing during a EPL game!
Lays it on a plate…
Bangs it in from six yards 😀
Raphael shouts at ATG, “shoot” 😉
hehe, well in Arthur. Neat assist NBN!
Raphael, you’re one funny player ☺
NBN
Great assist indeed it was on the plate as well.
ABB
Raphael should have been red carded for his keeper save in the midfield 🙂
Quite funny at *72, if seriously misrepresenting what I opine about our injured non-hero. As for being a cracked record there is, in this forum, a much louder one emanating from a Greek chorus of non-hero worshippers who are, apparently, quite happy with the mediocrity our most expensive buy has dished up in too many games for more than a year now. All I can say is they must be very easily satisfied. Or grimly wanting to believe against all the evidence.
If we could sell him for more than half what we paid for him perhaps we could sign someone with some heart.
Öskar
Hey ATG, he got away with a couple 😉 Good entertainment!
Simple reason cynic for only now 99 drinks.
Sane and reasonable gooners have reasoned why bother posting the same stuff for the past few years, week after week.
Probably don’t want to sound like a broken record.
Completely understandable I would have thought.
In business, there is a nice little measurement for managers for their employees care factor and happiness, that says,
“when your employees stop complaining it usually means they don’t give a shit anymore”
Those of us still bothering on here are completely nuts and completely insane, but very loyal and still give a shit.
A Gonner @106
A choice of your drink is on the bar! 🙂
ABB
It was fun to watch them panic in those dying minutes 🙂
ABB
I note your loyalty and concern for Arsene. It does you great credit.
He has been a wonderful manager and has much still to offer. He will make many of our players better and more confident and he may still attract great talent to the club.
This is what makes the dilemma so difficult. I believe he will qualify us again for the CL next season although it won’t be easy but we have absolutely zero chance of the league already. The CL is beyond us but we might be able to spring a surprise along the way but I just can’t see us winning it.
So can Arsene really take us forward to a level where we are able to seriously challenge Chelsea and Citeh.? We haven’t been able to this season and sadly with their squads we won’t catch them now. As Trev suggests in a number of excellent pieces it’s partly incomplete squad building, partly poor conditioning and treatment of injuries and partly tactical. I’m really not certain that he can but I would hate him to leave under a cloud as we all owe him so much. And this Board will not remove him partly because he does not deserve it, partly because they are not ultra- ambitious and partly because Arsenal is still a decent club with values that recognises exceptional service.
So do we reconcile ourselves to Groundhog seasons or agitate for a change? My inclination is to allow Wenger to run through his contract simply because replacing him won’t guarantee success and may lead to relative disaster if we pick the wrong man. When he leaves it will have a huge negative effect on the club because his footprint is so huge. That’s why this dilemma is so hard to solve
ATG, Manu haven’t faced Chelsea or City yet, either …
TTG, What a heartfelt post xx
Arsene is not beyond reproach. He is stubborn. But our lads must shoulder more of the responsibility. You mention our injuries. Well, both Kos and Ozil, initially hid theirs, from AW and continued to play. Jack has done this also. Grown men, who should know better!
TTG
A great deal to elaborate on! Me thinks!
Ttg, I expect Arsene and Arsenal to stand up to and challenge the oily clubs both in fighting for titles and when we go head-to-head in matches. I don’t expect us to win any of those fight though because as simple as it sounds we don’t have the resources to do so.
Agreed we have a bit of new money and can affordd to buy the odd marquee player but we are still not up to their level. We can afford to sign one of those marquee players every season they can afford to sign five even with the threat of FFP. We don’t have the margin for error they have when it comes to spending money. They can afford to sign fernandinho this season then replace him with Fernando the next. They can afford to sign Jovetic, pay him top dollar and keep him on the bench till he comes good. they can afford to sign Sinclair, Lampard and Rodwell and pay them top dollar just to boost their homegrown ratio. We simply can’t afford those kind of luxuries. If we spent the kind of money they spent on the above players it would be expected that they walk into our 1st 11 or at least get 30 games a season. We are all uncomfortable with Poldi sitting on our bench on 107K a week, just look at the transfer fees and salaries that sits on City and Chelsea’s bench or loan teams every weekend.
Furthermore, great teams are built over a period of time, with obscene money in the modern era, we’ve only had a single season where we’ve not had to sell our top player(s) City and Chelsea have not had to do that in the last decade(or five/six years for City). We’ve not even spent 3/10 of what City and Chelsea spent in building the teams they have today.
Last season Chelsea won fuck all so this season they went out and addressed their perceived weaknesses by spending £25(or was it 35) million on a DM they let go for free a few years ago(imagine if Arsene spent that to buy Henri Lansbury or Frimpong back) they also splashed out another £35M on a striker because their 50M striker wasn’t firing and we all know they would spend another 40M in january of Costa wasn’t firing too, can we really afford these kind of expenses? On this basis do we really expect Arsene/Arsenal to win the league against these kind of spenders, is it even possible for any human to do it?
Trust me I see the deficiencies in our games and squad in general but I know Rome wasn’t built in a day and definitely not on one marquee block per year.
Pleased to see such esteemed ‘holics working out what ails us. The answer must be only just around the corner(?) 🙂 🙁
Cent, I see where you are coming from. At the same time , we knew what we wanted and didn’t do it. We don’t have to spend £25million to get DM, how much did Southampton pay Celtic for Wanyama? he definitely is better than what we have now. He couldn’t get a CB? Really? We have scouts all over the world and we couldn’t get a CB/DM. There is no way we can compete with city and Chelsea, but not getting what was needed (not wanted) is just crazy. Wenger has been great to our club and we the fans owe him a lot. But I feel he is getting bigger than the club. Who is Wenger answering to? the answer is, nobody. And regardless of what he has done and getting paid for, handsomely I might add, he needs to answer to somebody and there lies the problem. I want him to be successful because he deserves it, but something has to change.
Good debate in the bar tonight.
I feel like I want to agree with everyone ….
SAG – maybe we need to accept it, (like it or not) that Arsene does answer to a few key folks and he is making all of them a lot of nice coin as either a profit or as a return on investment and has done for many years now.
Hence his overall power and the seemingly submissive nature of those around him from a footballing perspective.
Example: if you are Steve Bould and you are being well paid to continue to be involved in your love of professional football and the smell of the turf and the training ground, would you argue with him.
Most of us would like to think we would speak our mind from a sporting perspective, but we would probably want to keep our new Arsenal kit on for as long as possible and enjoy being around the atmosphere.
As far as the business side of ARSENAL FC, Arsene is a very successful, well respected and popular businessman and a leader in his field. He is not going to give that up lightly or quickly it would seem.
Sadly none of that has much to do with what most regular fans enjoy about being a fan, paying member or not.
Most fans would be happy with a highly competitive team, playing some nice football and watching someone like Sanchez works his socks off for the team, and beating the occasional big $ spending clubs or being awfully close.
Unfortunately at Arsenal, it does seem the gap between what the fans want and what the Coach, the board, the CEO and the owner want are no longer the same and the gap does seem to be getting wider.
shiny trophies that dont pay a single bill
playing beautiful football also doesn’t pay a single bill
or
4th spot$ in EPL & CL$ competitions year after year
marquee player and sell some global merchandise
I believe Arsenes perception of himself is as a current, modern and hugely successful manager as he honestly sees the 4th spot and CL spot as significant (trophy like) achievements.
This may also explain the widening gap in communication and what the measurement of success is nowadays, between Arsene, the media and the regular fans.
He does seem to be completely bewildered, offended, confused and pissed off, when fans and reporters (such as Jacqui Oatley), question him about anything related to results on the football field.
If Jacqui Oatley had half a brain she wouldn’t ask questions, the answer to which had already been implied in AW’s answers to previous questions. That’s what happens when interviewers prepare a set of qs and reel them off without really listening to what the interviewee says. AW was amused by her cub reporter style initially, but then gave up when she persisted. Who can blame him? It’s not like there was anything new in her interrogation that he hadn’t heard, and answered, a hundred times before.
Öskar
Oskar, if that is the case,
Why are journalists and fans alike seeking answers to the same questions over and over again so many times.
Perhaps, he has not answered any of the questions properly or sufficiently in the first place and his on field results don’t match his responses.
Or, A gooner, managing a difficult situation like the one Arsenal is in currently requires NOT explaining exactly what you’re doing about it lest processes in train be jeopardised or misunderstood. It is, after all, a given that AW knows the number, weight and disposition of ALL Arsenal’s balls in the air, whereas we don’t, can only guess, and likely draw incorrect conclusions from incomplete information. Speculate all you like, but don’t pretend to understand what’s going on until the blanks are all filled in.
I’m still waiting for AW’s book (after he retires presumably) to learn what exactly went on during the Summer 2013 negotiations regarding Higuain and Suarez, and how he ended up with Özil. Ditto 2014 and the last minute grab for Danny.
All will, I expect, be revealed in time.
Öskar
A lot of good sense posted overnight. Big, big props to Cent and an honourable mention to Otd.
COYG
Öskar, another one to look forward to is Arsène’s description of the summer of 2011(?) and how it felt to be shafted by his spiritual son and heir. I imagine his description of the feeling when that same son and heir tried to return in summer 2014 will also be amusing.
I wonder if there wasn’t a degree of self proboscis removal to spite his physiognomy with regard to that, Pangloss. I hope not, because the result has done us no favours.
Öskar
Oskar, when would you expect all these ” blanks to be filled in”
2015/16 or beyond.
How long is a fair and reasonable to assemble another top notch squad.
Given his experience, Would you not expect he would be close now ?
Oskar, one other point I was remiss in asking you.
Why is arsene in this ” difficult position” at this time.
Is it not completely of his own making ?
Or is the whole mess completely the fault of RVP and cesc for leaving…
A goner@115, nicely put. So my question is why can’t he just take a seat upstairs and let’s get someone that is hungrier and can have a mandate to make the top three and change the whole mentality around the team (not the club). Like you said Wenger is more like a business man right now, and really successful at it too. with this board they are willing to keep him there for another 10 years, as far as we keep getting 4th place and that’s not good enough.
Great debate.
If I’m picking a single post it must go to Cent.
Wenger will stay until the end of his current contract. Then we will have a new manager for the first time in over 20 years.
I wish Arsene the best until then. And I agree with TTG’s artful 108 that he deserves to; many times Arsene had better offers than us but he was loyal- I am proud that our club shows that same loyalty- even if our current owners may do so out of more questionable motives. I do not think he has ‘lost it’ and hope he surprises many before the end of his tenure. I think there is one big one left in him. Sampras’ last US Open, if you’re into tennis.
The new manager will be competing uphill against the same tide of cash that other clubs possess and we do not. I will back him fully and wish for his every success. He may be an instant hit and win us many titles. Let us all hope so.
For now, I can think of no manager who would come to us (or otherwise) that I would rather have at the helm than Le Boss.
And when it is time for the new guy to come in I will not be surprised if he struggles to emulate Wenger. And I do not mean in terms of legacy- no-one in modern football will ever do that for any club, in any league, ever again- but in year-on-year results. The Premier League is tough and getting tougher. Sometimes maintaining your position is much more like progress than it seems.
The oil clubs can’t last forever. And when they fall we are best placed to take advantage. I’m taking a leaf from Wenger’s book and playing the long game.
Mr Kroenke will have a chance tonight to see how marketable football is when played in an empty stadium. CSKA vs Man City takes place behind closed doors.
Watch it and be afraid, Mr Kroenke.
Raise prices some more if you like, but I know a lot of fans who are on the brink.
@ Trev.
It’s also worth noting that once those fans have gone the tickets will be bought by others and stadium will still be full.
But who cares about a stadium filled with prawn-sandwich munchers?
The real die-hard matchday fans will have taken the atmosphere with them…
OMG, the only thing missing here, is Babs Streisand belting out ‘The Way We Were’ 😉
Put away your violins, please, for the love of football!!! 🙂
We’ve a game tomorrow, if you haven’t noticed. So dry your tears and have a cuupa of positivity, why don’t ya!
Centy, you be the Man. Just adore your pompoms 🙂
abb.
Here’s a cuupa positivity. A real plan to derail the oil sheiks of Chelsea and Citeh that should decimate their spending power by about 12.5%. Keep on smiling. 🙂
http://www.jantoo.com/cartoon/30704218
Even better news: I got my division wrong so it should actually decimate their spending power by about 87.5%. Time to make offers for Fabregas, Hazard, Toure and Kompany?
Hi 8ball (giggles). Vincent Kompany is FAT, there, I said it 😉
Are you looking forward to our game ? They’re going to try and catch us on the break (how naughty ,of them). If we give our keeper, cover, we’ll win this one. What a pity, eh 😉
GSD @127. The atmosphere has already changed GSD. It isn’t even a patch on the all-seated North Bank which was itself a downgrade o previous times.
I have had the opportunity to watch from Club Level. The atmosphere in there is extremely passive.
That is indeed the future if current trends continue.
Whilst we don’t want to return to the tribal violence of the 70s and 80s, a little bit of passion (plus a bit of ‘community singing’) goes a long way to making an enjoyable sporting occasion.
Ok then abb.
I read your @128 and then went out grocery shopping. Your words were still ringing in my ears as I passed by William Hill. Not one to live life too seriously and open to messages the universe (or at least my favourite Arsenal bar) may be trying to send me- I stepped inside.
I am now £2 less well off than I was but am now the proud owner of a betting slip worth £200- if we beat Anderlecht 6-0.
It might not be that likely…
…but I’m staying positive! MASSIVE WINK
Good man GSD.
You are of course bonkers. But I hope you win.
Eritrea, a country located in the horn of Africa. Just discovered it, yesterday (courtesy of The Guardian). Considered the most dangerous country to live in. Or escape from.
I am very blessed, indeed.
Have a great day, holics. xx
@bath.
I went to Marseille at home last year. Got a seat in the Gods in the middle of the pitch. I began to feel out of place as I shouted my support at the team and joined in chants from other areas of the ground.
I had to remind myself it was the majority, the ‘spectators’ there, not the minority, the supporters, who were behaving inappropriately.
Thank God our away fans are so bloody good. I know a lot of Irons (who know a thing or two about giving your all in support of a team who can be less than stellar) who can’t believe the difference between our home and away support.
We’re all bonkers Baff!
And we’re all blessed abb.
Yes. Our away support is fantastic. Keep going throughout, thick or thin. Only been to a couple of away games and the atmosphere is truly excellent.
I sit in the North Upper. The same ST holders (a minority) sing and chant every game and the rest sit there waiting to be entertained.
My experience of Club Level was surreal in the extreme. My mate (who got the seats from a business associate) and I were the only vocal people there. A significant proportion were in their seats for only the middle 30 minutes of each half.
Is that what you get as an ‘audience’ when you charge £1,100 and upwards for a season ticket?
Is it a London thing?
Is it a (whisper it) class thing?
I don’t know but it’s not a good trend if it continues.
Holic,
In reference to my own 133- I am sorry if I’ve pre-empted your pound.
@139 I totally agree from my (sporadic) recent experience.
The last line sums it up really.
GSD @137, we are that. 🙂
GSD @141, H’ will certainly put a different bet on the Anderlecht game.
And the ‘leave early brigade’ really do my head in.
As a result, I particularly enjoy last minute goals for us.
Abb,
You are such a lovely positive person, and so full of good wishes for all and sundry, that I will smile and ignore your @128 – which I otherwise would have said does not do you justice.
The amount of money that has to be justified to watch The Arsenal is not at all a trivial thing for some of us.
Bath,
Spot on above, as usual.
I was rather unfavourably stared at when I shouted from the seat in Club Level I had borrowed for a League Cup game. And, as you said, I sat utterly devoid of neighbours for long periods either side of half time.
At the final whistle my first thought was, “Oh shit, I missed the fire drill!”
@ bath
Partly a class thing, partly an age thing, I’d guess. You don’t often see a gang of young lads together at the Arsenal these days, and – in my experience, at least – they tend to be the key source of the noise at most football grounds.
Agree with those who say our approach to ticketing is extremely short-termist. If you don’t have enough young people in the stadium on match days/if fathers can’t afford to bring their sons and so on, then who will be the regular punters ready to hand over a grand plus for a season ticket in 20 years’ time?
I also think it’s a function of the changing role of the supporter, something that factors into a lot of the disputes we have on here.
We’ve moved from a support to an audience: it’s quite clear from reading comments online that a significant percentage of the support don’t see their role as backing the side to the hilt on match days, come what may. Instead, they’ve paid a hefty price for their tickets and they’re expecting to be entertained, and to be allowed a degree of engagement + to be made to feel like they’re being listened to.
In the nigh on 30 years I’ve been watching football, that’s been the biggest change, to my eyes. You can argue that the unhappy fans have a point, and that if you’re going to spend £50+ on a ticket then you don’t deserve to be served up dross, or to feel ignored. Equally, you can argue that the occasion is sometimes what the fans make of it, and that the negative atmosphere this approach generates has sapped the stadium of vibrancy and sometimes even directly impacted on team performance.
In addition to high ticket prices, I think the internet has also played a part. Everyone’s an expert now. We all see the stats, we all have an opinion on football club finances, and how a medical team does its job, and so on and so on. If we stray onto a subject we know nothing about all we need do is spend 15 minutes googling around it and – hey presto – we’ve a strongly held opinion backed by confirmatory evidence.
Personally, I think it was all a lot better when we just focused on the football, did our best to stay behind the lads and didn’t worry too much about the rest of the other bollocks, bar the summer transfers. But that’s a bygone era to which we probably can’t return now, even if we all wanted to – the landscape has changed.
What I will say is that on the occasions I’ve been in the stadium with a different crowd to usual (be it the youth team games or the FA Cup day screening last season), it makes a refreshing change. You see groups of little kids scurrying around, buzzing just to be inside the stadium. That, to me, is what football should be like. Not everyone jaded and arguing with each other about bollocks that none of us really, truly, has a proper understanding of anyway (hands up who’s ever run the finances for a top flight football team?).
I’m probably more blase about it all than some these days because I don’t get to the games as much as I did a couple of years ago, and I’m therefore not the one paying through the nose. But I would love it if we could get a proper atmosphere going on the regs. There have been a few occasions where the place has been absolutely rocking, mainly on the big European nights, and it’s properly felt like home. Always a pleasure to be a part of those, and the feeling of being in a crowd who are all praying for the same thing, all together and in unison, rather than a bunch of uneasy punters who decided to do this rather than go to the theatre, is one that simply can’t be beaten and always makes me proud to be a Gooner.
Bit of a ramble, but there you go.
COYG
As someone who goes to all home games and virtually every domestic away fixture, I’ve often thought it was a shame the away atmos doesn’t travel, err, home….
This season is my first ST in the North Bank Lower and it’s definitely a lot noisier than other parts of the ground. Maybe, with the lower tier being more enclosed, it makes people a little less shy about singing. Or perhaps it’s the proximity to the pitch. Dunno really, but it would be nice for there to be a few more sections about the place making some noise, even if it’s just getting some Clock End/North Bank tennis going.
Having said that thought, we’re far from the only stadium that’s quiet. Old Toilet is regularly practically silent for most of the game. And the Lane was pretty quiet apart from the away section when I last visited 😉
Incidentally, as I write this Man City are playing a champs league game against CSKA Moscow behind closed doors. I watched a few minutes, and it was bloody awful without the presence of home and away support – might as well be a different sport.
I think the powers that be would do well to realise that they will not be able to shop the Premier League rights around the world without the presence of supporters in stands. The noise and reaction of the crowd is what makes the games and gives context to the action: without us all there watching it really is just a bunch of blokes kicking a ball around, and some nobheads chatting rubbish over the top of it.
I really hope that those in the game understand the simple truth of the above, and will look at ways to sweeten the lot of the match day fan, and to ensure that the next generation of supporters find their way into the stands. Either that, or they’ll just get EA to CGI us all in.
Oh, and great post by Cent @ 111.
@ snowy
I’ve one word for you: vuvuzelas.
The answer to all our problems.
Good stuff, N7.
Match day used to always be a thrill because it was all we had.
Expectations have definitely been raised, in part but not only, by the internet. The club has also raised expectations by telling us that it can “now do a, b and c” while, in reality, it can only manage x, y, z, thereby causing an amount of frustration.
Personally, I’m quite happy to accept watching dross now and then – regardless of what I’ve paid – ‘cos that’s just how football is now and then. As long as we’ve done our best, that’s fine.
The other “bollocks” does get on your nerves but the information is out there now and people will use it. Trouble is, it’s incomplete information.
I hope I haven’t caused too much anger with all the medical bollocks.
To wade into the ticket argument gave up mine a few seasons into the Emirates just never felt like home I guess – Plus a few other reasons which I will not go into, Do I miss it – Not really still pop up to see old friends then watch it in the boozer, Far better atmosphere than in the ground 😉 Also still go to the odd away and on the occasional European jaunt much more fun, And far easier to afford due to not shelling out on the season ticket, As far as day trippers etc snapping up given up season tickets- Yes the novelty value is still quite strong but after a few more seasons of not challenging that will soon wear thin and then where will the club be. Not saying it’s right or wrong but you can only push people so far and if they go over the edge it’s hard to win them back as other things take priority and they soon realise the match day experience isn’t what it once was.
Up The Arse,
And N7 @147,
Think that’s roughly what I said @126.
Football without crowds will interest noone.
In terms of press conferences and articles, some one should seriously find Adrian Durham and beat the shit out of him. He writes in his article that the Invincibles played for draws, had under achieved and were over hyped beyond measure. I agree to the under achieved part mainly because that team should have won the UCL as well because they were so good. Apart from that his reasoning and even saying Viera and Henry not being as good as the gooners make them to be is plain fuckall and his vitriol towards us.
Back to tomorrow and with martinez in goal, i seriously hope Kos is fit for i did not see him in any of the training pics as well. Would that mean Monreal and Per again as cb?? or will we have Chambers back and playing as cb? I think i see the former with Monreal and Per cb and Chambers and Gibbs our full backs.
Win may not be an absolute necessity but how we could do with a win. The whole team needs a lift and what better way than an away win, a smile on the face and no injuries.
@ Trev
No anger at all with the medical stuff.
You’re one of the exceptions: you clearly know of which you speak, and you’re careful to highlight the boundaries of your own knowledge. Nothing at all wrong with that – I’ve found your posts on our injury crisis to be some of the best stuff I’ve read on the subject.
The stuff I’m on about is things like the “we’ve got X million in the bank” complaints. None of us has the first idea how much of the banked amount can be used for transfers. Swiss Ramble does this stuff for a living and has been through our public accounts with a fine tooth comb, and even he admits he’s basically guessing beyond a certain level. Yet the internet is full of enraged people complaining we didn’t buy a fourth choice centre back despite having £150m to spend.
I think you can have a view on whether we should have bought another defender without pretending that the financial position is crystal clear, so why go the extra mile? Why get worked up about your own guesswork? Why pretend it’s cut and dry?
That’s the stuff that baffles me.
I think you’re spot on about the information being incomplete.
@ Vinay
Durham is a professional troll. Even he doesn’t believe the shite he writes – he’s a grown man who makes a living shouting self-evident nonsense in the hopes of drawing attention to himself.
Best thing to do is deny him the oxygen of publicity. Actually, that’s a lie: the best thing to do would be to deny him the oxygen of oxygen, but that’s harder to achieve.
Cheers N7.
Vinay,
Durham is what the Merkans call a shock-jock.
Just reads the Daily Mail out very loudly.
He could just as easily do the same on any subject you care to mention. And with exactly the same amount of knowledge and insight. 😉
DB10 currently on S Sports 1.
Pure bliss ! 🙂
AW on the injury to David Ospina from arsenal.com reminds me a bit of the Kjallstrom injury situation when we signed him. Aren’t these “pre-existing conditions” (as the insurance companies call them) supposed to be discovered in the physical or don’t we believe in physicals?
“It is exactly the same one [as from the World Cup]. He had his first injury at Nice – it was a knee problem and he was a bit rushed back and did not use his leg, so his muscle became weaker. Then he got injured in the World Cup. After that, he came to us injured after the World Cup and it took him two months to play again. I had to bring him on against Galatasaray without a warm up and being prepared, so he had a recurrence of that injury. It means he is out for two to three months, now we have to be really careful because it is a recurrence of a thigh injury, which is very difficult. It is a long-term injury.”
I take huge exception to that “behind the 8 ball”, on behalf of all the staff here in The Quackery.
Goalkeepers, as everyone knows, are not really footballers at all. Many of them can barely kick a ball without it sailing off the pitch or into the legs of the nearest opposition player.
No, goalkeepers are supposed to use their hands.
Despite this, we at The Quackery carried out a thorough medical examination of David Ospina – including his legs.
We found there to be a full compliment of two, of approximately equal length, although one did look noticeably thinner than the other.
However, when we burst a large paper bag behind him he seemed to jump well enough, and so we passed him with flying colours.
We have routinely performed the “paper bag test” on all the goalkeepers for many years now, although poor Fabianski looked as though he never quite recovered from the shock.
I really don’t know what more we could have done.
Dr T.
@ Baff and others.
I’d go back to the 70’s, 80’s in a heartbeat. Appreciate that sometimes it was not to everyone’s taste, but its a bit of a myth that tribal conflicts made attendance a particularly dangerous occupation; 95% of the time you could quite easily avoid it.
However conditions were poor, you had to want to go to really enjoy it, hence there were not that many of the Laydeze present (don’t blame them given the absolute lack of normality – like sanitary toilet facilities), and I welcome their increased presence nowadays as one of the positives of the changes that have taken place.
But;- the atmosphere, the passion, the sometimes naked aggression and tribalism, the whole feeling of being subsumed by following The Arsenal where others sometime feared to tread…..
Like I said, I’d go back to those days in a heartbeat, at my somewhat advanced age as well.
There’s a real story to be written about it, not the hoolie stuff *massive yawn*, but just how it was, real terrace culture. Hornby captures is quite well in the early chapters of Fever Pitch. Someone else needs to give it serious justice.
So Ospina is out for three months, what else is there to say.
Dr. T.
Your paper bags clearly are not exploding loudly enough. 🙂
If I read AW’s comments correctly, this is at least the third occurrence of Ospina’s knee injury and the previous time was the result of his being rushed back into action at Nice. Which means he won’t be rushed back into action this time. At the current rate of injuries to Arsenal players, Emiliano is just a whisker away from being our first choice keeper. 🙁
GSD, I like the way you roll ! Good luck with your winnings, mate.
Now Trev, I was in no way belittling your(justified) complaints about the club’s pricing on tickets and munchies. @128, was directed at the funereal atmosphere in the bar. That’s all 😉
Remember when Snir circulated that petition to get rid of Stewart Robson commentating for Arsenal. Alas, it worked ! Get a petition started, for fair ticket prices, etc. We’ll all sign it and promote it on twitter 🙂
Nasri : “Abb, you got a big mouth”.
Abb : “Samir, whatever are you going on about? How’s the groin, btw?”
Nasri : “Hey fine, TY for asking!” silence …
Nasri: “Oh don’t change the subject! Grrr.”
Abb: ” Samir, I’m not a mind reader.” (sighs)
Nasri : “Vinnie’s upset about your ‘fat’ remark. Wants a retraction.”
Abb: ” Samir, I’ve no time for your bollocks. Rumour has it, Mr Rednapp has a scale. 😉 Suggest you and Vincent, give it a try!
Hahaha, love you, Nurse ABB!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evening all.
The fact that most of us remain seated these days doesn’t help create the atmosphere of yesteryear.
I was at Norwich for the last game of last season, stood the entire game with the away fans and it was one continuous sing song. Loved every minute in an end of season atmosphere but I wouldn’t want to stand every week at my time of life, I did my appenticeship over 55 years ago. Nor would I have wanted to stand with some of my fellow Gooners last Saturday where, in the second half, an unhealthy atmosphere prevailed in block 30, where I am seated this season.
I personally would not wish to put the clock back. We are lucky to have the Ems, it attracts visitors from all over the world so it’s not surprising that only half the crowd these days know the words to our songs!
Perhaps the programmes should contain a “hymn sheet”!