A Fortnight Of Serious Reflection Awaits Gunners
Nov 9th, 2014 by 'holic
Well, a ‘not too good’ week turned bad at the Liberty Stadium as Arsenal once again surrendered a lead. Although Anderlecht only recovered a point against us on Tuesday Swansea grabbed all three with two goals in the last fifteen minutes.
Let me give credit to Garry Monk and his team. They were competitive throughout and I thought deserved their win at the death. It could have been worse if Phil Dowd, of all people, had taken a different view of Calum Chambers first half coming together with Bony. Fortunately he had a perfect view of the theatrical plunge made by the latter, but we have all seen soft penalties like that given.
The home side got into their stride quicker at the start of the game, but I hoped that we were attempting a repeat of last season’s performance when we dropped deep, soaked up the pressure, and hit them devastatingly as they tired. With the benefit of hindsight (more of that later) the way we started the match was the way we should perhaps have considered finishing it.
There were clear indications from the start that Montero was proving a handful for Calum Chambers, and the young defender found little in the way of support from his colleagues. The Swans attempted to probe that weakness throughout.
I don’t recall us having a shot until Aaron Ramsey’s blocked effort in the 27th minute, but we did end the half coming out of our shell and could have taken the lead. First Danny Welbeck found himself one on one with Fabianski but the former Gunners ‘keeper saved well. Then Aaron Ramsey saw a well struck volley go inches wide, and Per Mertesacker got up to head narrowly past the other post.
Again with the benefit of hindsight (isn’t that a wonderful thing) one would have expected at half-time for the manager and coach to call for a bit more support for Chambers from those ahead of and alongside him. For the team to keep doing the basics well and if we could nick a goal on the break to regain the shape we had at the start and not throw caution to the wind. Easy to write after the event, I know, and maybe they did say exactly that. We don’t know.
If they didn’t then the problems we are currently experiencing are down to them. If they did then some of these players need to take a long hard look at their contribution. We don’t know the answers, but have to trust the manager, the coaching staff, and the squad to work long and hard at identifying and resolving the defensive issues we have faced for a long time now.
It’s easy to point fingers at just the defence and lay the blame at their door, but we were down to the bare bones going into the season, and injuries to Mathieu Debuchy and Laurent Koscielny have us fielding a makeshift back four with the second-choice left-back at centre-half, and a rookie at right-back. They need shielding, and to an extent got that for half an hour at the start of this match.
That they were exposed so badly in the final quarter of the matches on Tuesday and today (Sunday) tells a sad and sorry tale about the state of our midfield right now. The engine room that made us the best team in the Premier League in the calendar year of 2013, and delivered a trophy at last in May is host to much misfiring presently. The hard work of Alexis and Danny Welbeck when we have the ball, and when we don’t, is in marked contrast to those between them and the back four.
The return of Mesut Ozil and Theo Walcott won’t fix that, but may just give us a chance of outscoring opponents until we can hopefully find some defensive reinforcements in January. With the skipper missing Mathieu Flamini stomped around the midfield barking instructions to anybody that would listen. Astonishingly in a match of ten yellow cards he was not the recipient of one of them, which tells a tale perhaps.
Alongside him Aaron Ramsey is a shadow of the player rightly lauded last season. It’s a shame that first-half volley didn’t go in because one gets the feeling a goal will cure what ails him and his confidence right now. Santi Cazorla is not selected for his defensive prowess, and is flitting in and out of games. Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain was always dangerous when we went forward but only too happy to stay up and not help shut off the supply to Montero when we didn’t have the ball.
The lead we sought on the break duly arrived just past the hour and a glorious goal it was, ending with Welbeck cutting a ball into the path of Alexis who netted his eighth Premier League goal in just ten appearances. Arsenal, being Arsenal, couldn’t resist committing players forward in search of a killer second. Barrow broke and ran unchallenged through the centre of the pitch until Kieran Gibbs desperate lunge from behind halted him at the expense of a free-kick. Sigurdsson’s excellent effort was unstoppable. Three minutes later the winner was anything but.
For the umpteenth time Montero got the better of Chambers and crossed for Gomis, cleverly on Monreal’s shoulder to head home past a strangely static Szczesny. The reaction? Theo Walcott and Jack Wilshere introduced for the final ten minutes, and Yaya Sanogo in injury time. Ramsey, Flamini, and finally Chambers were withdrawn as we attempted to throw everything but the kitchen sink at them, but it wasn’t enough.
The blame game requires scapegoats. They are different for different people. And sad though it is to see the same criticisms of the same people when the chips are down it is totally understandable if expressed without resorting to bile. Arsene did have the money available to strengthen the defensive positions in the summer and it is hard to understand why that didn’t happen. There may be perfectly good reasons why we didn’t but the fact that so many saw that as a problem then leaves the boss open to perfectly valid criticism, if expressed respectfully.
I don’t like to see players singled out, but there are those, particularly in midfield, who are attracting the sort of criticism that erodes already fragile confidence. It doesn’t help them that the outstanding work being done by the summer acquisitions, Alexis and Welbeck, is putting one or two in the shade who should be performing better. It seems we are struggling to find the right balance in midfield, and this may be resolved by the return of Walcott and Ozil. Players currently assured of a place need to respond positively to the threat of a place on the bench when we are back, if ever we will be, to full strength.
Twelve points behind Chelsea after eleven matches doesn’t look good. It isn’t a decisive advantage but it appears ever more likely with each passing week that we are playing for second or third place, and a guaranteed Champions League berth next season. One could argue that would represent progress, but right now it seems a million miles away. It doesn’t help that we face a fortnight of navel gazing thanks to the international break. Never have we needed to get to the January transfer window more.
288 Responses to “A Fortnight Of Serious Reflection Awaits Gunners”
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Very measured and calm post maestro. I personally can’t see the return of Ozil and Walcot making too much difference to the current ailment. Kos and Debuchy are the men we desperately need.
Can I have some of what you are drinking?
Well in bath. If only our midfield were as on-the-ball as you 🙂
This is a very measured piece, Mr.Maestro. Not poking a wasps nest with a stick at all.
Up The (sickly) Arsenal!
It’s nearly all gone bath. An eclectic mix of vin rouge, rum-flavoured beer, and (believe it or not) Whyte & Mackays.
Strange, strange old season. 1 point ahead of crisis-club Newcastle by the middle of November!
I’d like to say things will improve, but it doesn’t sound like Kos will be fit to return until December at the earliest, and at the moment the upcoming run of fixtures: Man Utd (H), WBA (A), So’ton (H), Stoke (A), don’t fill me with any especial confidence. The 12-point haul from that group of games could conceivably be between anything from 2 – 10….
1-5 on current form, G.
Quite excellent in the circumstances, Holic. Attaboy!
Very balanced post Holic not sure where you found the optimism for this one!
Very negative two weeks have just begun! 🙁
Hello folks! Been quite a while. Not that anything has actually changed.
Holic, thank you for being on point and not going overboard. Thing is, as things are, we all have a right to.
There really isn’t much to add. In the Champions league we just have to pray that the boys are able to put themselves together and get the point we need to qualify for the next round and hope for a favourable draw if we get through.
As for the Prem, even the most optimistic of us know that we blew it with the draw against Hull.
January. The only thing I’m looking forward to is a good draw in the Cup when January rolls around. Praying that AW will get it right and sign the players we need is a bit wishful.
Finally, when Phil Dowd is seemingly on your side (having pity on you) then you truly are in the doghouse.
Measured post Goonerholic!
Sadly I’m not feeling as measured yet I’m not surprised at the loss, even after taking the lead.
Our team has regressed alarmingly since last season!
After topping the league for over 4 months and winning the FA Cup, this squad should have progressed further to make up the 7 point gap from last term. Instead, the apathy is unbelievable. The crux of the matter is this, and has been for the past nine years; this team is just not good enough and “totally clueless tactically” when they don’t have possession of the ball. No defensive strategy whatsoever and it will not change anytime whilst Arsene Wenger remains at the club! He has the players, even right now with all the injuries, to set up a disciplined strategy but I hate to say that he’s either not interested in one because these players he thinks are just so much better than the opposition every match, or he isn’t indoctrinating it into then enough. Either way it’s negligence on a massive scale and I’m 100% sure now that every club in world football knows that whilst Arsene Wenger remains at Arsenal, they can be got at and can implode! Arsene Wenger has to go upstairs at the end of this season and bring in a coach who will expect in-game intelligence of his players or will make in-game tactical changes that “respect” the talents of the other team. Symmetry is there; the last trophy Arsene won in 2005 and the pasty trophy he’ll me win before leaving will also be the FA Cup last season. Please leave Arsene before you destroy your reputation any further as a tactician and man-manager! I’m really fecked off tonight!
Another slightly worrying trend is that the team, bar Alexis, seems to have forgotten how to score goals (I think Chambers is the only other lge goalscorer in almost a month). I seem to remember last season by November, the goals were quite nicely spread between Ramsey, Giroud, Walcott, Ozil, Cazorla et al. I almost get the sense that rather than Alexis’ excellence acting as example and inspiration, conversely it’s almost stifling/awing (in a weird way) some of our other attacking players. Incidentally, that’s not Alexis’ fault, just a sign that the other players need to recognise and ‘step up’ their own goalscoring responsibilities. Perhaps we’re now realising just how Giroud is the glue on which many of our midfield runners look to play and score off. I’d also love to see Wenger try 4-4-2 (with any 2 from Alexis/Giroud/Welbeck playing) to give teams a different problem when the HFB is fit…Also, is there any merit on starting Poldi in the wide-left attacking berth ahead of a misfiring Ox and Santi for certain games now too?…
Seems like the more alcohol consumed, the more mellow you reflect Guvna – a most measured post. ( Innis & Gunn beer perhaps? )
Once again there appeared to be a lack of motivation or instruction from the side line. Why was no-one tasked with helping out young Chambers who was getting skinned by Montero time after time and was creating danger from his crosses. If someone had been instructed to assist, why wasn’t he bollocking said player to do as instructed. Either way negligence in my view.
Eventually the tide will turn – let’s hope it’s sooner rather than later.
You have to earn the right to play for the full 90+ minutes in competitive sport! That’s why you’re called a “professional”!
Not even BtM’s going to help me this time. No pomade tomorrow morning. A flat-cap instead, with a Mckinley Tartan over-cloth!
Lonestar … re your #169 in the last round, we old-timers have seen it all before, trust me! It’s why I predicted today’s snafu performance in previous drinks leading up to it. It was inevitable, I’m sad to say, just what we always do after cocking up in midweek.
Öskar
Gregoire @11,
The Ox has stepped up and scored against Anderlect. Gibbs also scored as did Poldi away at Anderlecht.
wenger is a gambler imagine not buying a cover for kocienly,arteta,giroud and on and on.why is he doing this everyone saying this team is million miles awy.only he thinks his team is world beater is time to leave with smile.
The time has come for Wenger to leave, sad to say. It is becoming increasingly apparent that he is NOT the man to take the club forward. Chambers should have been removed or repositioned at half time – the failure to act given Montero’s superiority on the right flank is nothing short of negligence.
It is finished. Fourth or worse again, by the looks of it. This has become tedious and predictable.
Backdrinking this round and the previous I see my favourite complaint (lack of timely subs) has been well covered. I think I counted three times Jack touched the ball and once by Theo. What is the %$#&()@@? point??? What is also the point of playing Danny at CF? He’s clearly more use on the flanks where he could have Montero’ed the Swans backs. As could the Ox for that matter.
Very disappointing, regardless how predictable.
Öskar
Useful player that Montero, quick and clever.
Dapper DanC – I was talking about league games. We’re in mid-November, and after Alexis, our next highest lge goalscorer has 2 goals – not good enough…
Our primary strikers, Theo and OG, have been injured most of the season, Gregoire (and Theo for most of last for that matter). And AW chose to buy wingers and convert one of them to a striker in the summer, rather than bring in a proper predator. Just one of the compromises he made when he should have been fixing our very obvious deficiencies pre-season.
Öskar
Not to mention that arguably our most efficient striker (certainly in terms of goals per minute played) rarely gets his backside off the bench.
Öskar
Devastated by what’s happening. Fortunate to be among so many of the best Arsenal supporters here and to read their concern and ways to improve the team’s performances. Only can say, Alexis’ work rate and skill gives some hope. The ball he played to Theo was magnificent and could/should have resulted in the equaliser. I also noted how very upset Alexis was at the final whistle. Arsenal need some more of these streetfighter types in the team, especially one in midfield. I hate to say it but the team is a bit soft among problems with structure and balance.
As ever you have managed to tread the fine line between going over the top and failing to point the finger at areas of concern. A very sensible summary Guv but sadly I disagree Re Chelsea’s lead over us. Frankly I wouldn’t take us to finish above Chelsea with this lot if we had a twelve point lead. The stable door has been blown wide open and they have bolted . Oddly with such average performances we are still in sixth and I think we will win that fourth place trophy that keeps Silent Stan so content but we could and should be doing so much better with the money we have.
Arsene’s stubbornness has been a great virtue at times but at times like this it drives you potty!
As many have said, very measured, Holic.
I think you’ve pretty much covered it as far as the match went, but here is one small example of what may be symptomatic of our problems. Sorry if it falls into the “scapegoating” category, but I think it makes a valid point.
It is a point about Aaron Ramsey, someone who had a stinker on Tuesday, and someone I have defended in this bar many times in the past, and congratulated many times last season.
Ramsey alone is not to blame for all our problems but this little thing really angered me.
Following the collapse on Tuesday night, Arsenal released some training footage on dot com later in the week. After, and considering, his terrible performance against Anderlecht, Ramsey was filmed during what was clearly a warm up exercise.
The squad had apparently been told to go through some “open the gate” style adductor muscle stretches while slowly jogging. Ramsey was chatting and laughing with some of the other players – who were at least making a reasonable attempt at the exercise – whilst making almost no discernible effort to perform the exercise at all. His was hardly more than a lazy walk.
Sloppy and lazy in the extreme, showing no respect for the task set.
This complete lack of intensity was evident again in the match today as, having weakly lost the ball, he jogged back leaving Gibbs to commit the foul that led to Swansea’s first goal.
At least he is reproducing in matches what he is doing in training !
Is this the much vaunted improvement in preparation we were led to crave from Shad Forsythe. Seems it could well be, looking at our injury situation.
Will you all just leave Arsene alone please.
I absolutely love the guy. He is more clever than any of you know.
He keeps me in the Champions League with the smallest squad imaginable every year. Not only does he do that, he also makes it sound like it’s his own idea !
He also,knows EXACTLY how to wind you guys up like a clock with his team selections, tactics and substitutions. This has you suckers lighting up the broadband internet servers which is where I’m making another bomb.
So kind of you guys to oblige, and I picked up a cool 3 mill for advising him on how to do it !
Yes, I’m really loving Arsenal Soccer Club !
This latest defeat shows the defence is still aproblem .Despite the injuries,Wenger has not seriously improved the defence.If you want to win games and trophies,you need a strong defence.The attack is satisfactory for the epl but at the cl level,it’s really 2nd rate.
I don’t think Wenger can win the epl this season though it is still early.Hopefully he will get to grips with the flaws in the team and if he were to buy some guys,they better be ready made to go straight into the senior team . We don’t want any more promising guys. Time is of the essence.
Wenger once remarked he made stars rather than buy ready made stars. How arrogant.
I just opened Arseblog’s live blog, to see what he made of the game, and I think the final line should be the title of tomorrow’s blog. Harsh but fair.
Gregoire @19,
That is true. Regarding who has benefitted from Alexis’ coming to the club, the Ox has and has stepped up. Theo will too; both he and the Ox will be better players as they learn from example. Aaron Ramsey on the otherhand has yet to adapt to Alexis’ play. The team is slowly, whether intentionally or not, having to adapt to Alexis Sanchez’ style. Per Mertesaker alluded to that in an interview post-Anderlecht.
Interesting comments from Mertesaker post the match today. No maturity or discipline to defend and be patient. Still chasing a game that you are already leading. Naive and immature!
Well written ‘Holic, thanks.
Well played Holic. nice work.
Also very tidy work from BGBO @22 above.
(Summarised my thoughts perfectly)
The football quality and the fighting spirit shown by Alexis Sanchez may be the perspective and hope Holic was looking for in the previous drinks, for both supporters and the team itself.
The team truly needs to look no further than Alexis for his overall attitude towards his football. He is a fine new Arsenal player who I enjoy watching in the Arsenal shirt and he is the one shining perspective I am holding onto.
As suggested correctly by BGBO above, Alexis has looked upset and angry on leaving the field after the last two matches and understandably so. He has worked his socks off for the team on both occasions and scored the much needed goals to put us in a winning position, but still no cigar.
Without wanting to start an Ozil debate, these last few matches truly show how important it is to have a player in the midfield capable of holding onto the ball for the team and working the ball with patience and vision as we do when at our best.
I believe these recent low par performances must be our rock bottom for 2014 and will be the much needed catalyst for the required changes and improvements in the team in whatever form that may take.
Danc, Aaron Ramsey has to adapt himself to the fact that he is not Ronaldo, and will never be, something he has a problem realizing it seems.
Sooner he realizes that the better, both for himself and our club.
He seemed like a very modest fella to me, but there was some strange whispers this and the week before on twitter that it isn’t the case at all.
Don’t know if true, but apparently Chambers described him as the most arrogant and glory hunter player in the squad by far and there as some talk about his behaviour (or lack of it) at the training sessions.
Once again, don’t know if true and it is probably not, especially the part with the training, because I don’t think Arsene will allow that kind of behavior.
Lurky @31,
If that is true then it’s the job of the manager to bring discipline as appropriate. All that does, if true and not dealt with, is make evidently clear a dreadful culture of appeasent in the first team squad with favourites that will play no matter what. Winners do not like that and are intrinsically hungry and expect accountability for poor performance. It makes these winners want to “move on” to those clubs that have a “we have to win” character and attitude rather than a “we would like to win” culture and personality. We are now well and truly in the latter category and every man and his dog knows it too!
Every man and his Swan too!
The second goal was simply weak defending. Gomis didn’t make much of a run and Montero’s cross wasn’t that special (and, by the way, he got past both the Ox and Chambers to put it in, so Chambers wasn’t totally unprotected). It was the sort of cross that should have been meat and drink to a Premiership centre back. Unfortunately we had an out-of-form midfielder and our second-choice left back to deal with it. Up until then we had done enough to win the game. Even at 1-1 I thought the ‘Holic pound would land safely. But you just can give up soft goals like that and expect to win games, and especially not if you are a side whose self-confidence can drain faster than a pint glass without a bottom.
Hi All, I always enjoy the earnest blog here as well as the diverse opinions in the posts. From time to time, I even give in to the urge to hazard an opinion of my own. Crash helmets on? Here goes…
Arsene is the man who has a crafts table in his basement. There he has a ship inside a bottle, a re-enactment of the battle of waterloo and most likely a train set with a wonderful tunnel and bridge diorama. I do believe that he has spent the last 9 years building his models and believes that they are simply just not finished/ready to be finished. Frankly, maybe thats it – he doesn’t want to finish it because then he will have nothing. The paint will dry on the last model and he will not know what to do.
The stadium project, the youth project. Maybe he just can’t do the things that lots of folks agree that need being done because he can’t bring himself to finishing. Maybe there is madness in his method.
Probably not. But he is French.
teddy salad @35,
Wonderful analogy and I think my you’re right! To become irrelevant and dispensible with nothing else to do in your life other than football and, more specifically, Arsenal FC, is a big problem. What things would Arsene do in his “retirement” without football or Arsenal FC? Does he have any other interests and hobbies outside of football?
Really pissed off. At least we all know where we stand with this team and its management. 2 games in a row calum has a nightmare. But Arsene can’t replace him as it may affect the young mans confidence.
If he is serious about his job Arsene would play pros in their proper positions and get the best players for their positions.
Only Arsene knows the reasons for this team not pushing forward.
Sir Alex Ferguson certainly did and does now in his retirement.
Dapper Dan@36: AW owns an olive grove in the south of France.
DB10: er, isn’t Chambers a right back?
Teddy @ 35: A very interesting perspective, but I think it is not the fear of ennui — just as DanC says, he is French after all 🙂 — but more the madness of love (with Arsenal) that keeps him going.
Nietzsche: “There is always some madness in love, but always there is some reason in madness.”
Have been reading the truly wonderfully written “Invincible” and it expertly shows how authentically spirited and deeply strange Arsene’s relationship — from David Dein’s accidental meeting with Arsene and the germ of this idea planted in his head — with Arsenal has been. It is a kind of a relationship not many human beings are capable of and even fewer have both the head and the heart to sustain. He exasperates us time and again, but if we find it very difficult to imagine an Arsenal without him (we may demand it, want it, but let us admit that we do find it hard to visualize) I am sure Arsene himself finds it harder to imagine for himself.
For all his world-wise rationalism, erudition, experience and savoir faire, it is that all-devouring passion — for football, and then Arsenal — which has defined his genius, and it would not be easy for him to let it go, just as it won’t be easy for us to let him go.
BTW, great post-match perspective ‘Holic.
While posting my own indignant comments after the match, I realized that I have started to repeat myself beyond a point that I would find annoying in others. So even though the very human desire to “rationalize” and “make sense” of a series of minor catastrophes for something I deeply care about remains strong and making my points in the safety of this blog does act as a cathartic purge of the sadness and angst about the performances, I will try to refrain from making critical analysis of players/strategy/subs etc. for at least as long as I can keep my discipline.
I will treat the rest of the season to be an interesting experiment unfolding with minimum — if possible, none — fear of any eventual “unthinkable” about our league positions or cup runs. If I can keep my discipline.
I think we will finish 3rd in PL, and go on a good run in FA Cup and may even be all the way, and will suffer at the hands of one of the top four European teams in either the round of sixteen or the QF.
But anything else would be fine too. 🙂
NBN & TTG — thanks a lot for your kind comments in the last two rounds, apologies for not getting around to acknowledge and respond earlier.
Cheers H. Maybe see you at the barcodes game. I’m in football lockdown now for at least the next 13 days.
It’s at that point when you realised that, we may never catch up with the bus stop!!
Dough!!
🙁
Off wiv ees bleedin ead!!
Nice piece ‘Holic.
The expectation that things might well be fixed by the arrival of the January transfer window might be a red herring if one uses the previous half dozen or so years as a yardstick though.
>Shrugs<, having got used to all this nonsense 😀
My sentiments exactly Mark the Spark. If we get one defender back playing before the end of Jan (the 30th, for example) I’d bet on Wenger buying no-one.
Nicely written piece Holic – balanced and poised.
I was actually far more pleased with this performance than I was the one against Anderlecht. There was no complacency in this performance. Bottom line is they scored two very good goals on a day where the weather was hardly conducive to fast interchanging passing.
The point Lars makes and which Holic also mentions about Montero on the wing is valid. However, as fast as Bellerin is, he still is very young and naive at times – so I’m prepared to trust the manager in his selection on that front. I thought Monreal played very well. Ok he lacks a little height for CB but he had Bony in his pocket throughout the game.
For me, the very real issue is in midfield. And I think so far this season, there’s a few very uncomfortable home truths coming to light on certain players we thought were supposed to be the backbone of this team. We’re just not good enough in midfield.
Up front, I think Danny and Alexis have been marvellous and Oxlade is beginning to show some form too. I don’t think Giroud will make his place back in this side.
We’re playing like pigs but we’re still in all competitions and have only lost twice in the league. Heads up.
Joe – “Monreal had Bony in his pocket ….”
and I thought he was just pleased to see me ! 🙁
Heh Trev 🙂
I thought the point you made about Ramsey was very interesting.
I have to say, I’ve always thought that he was a worker even when he wasn’t playing well.
My own feeling about the complacency and cavalier attitude displayed by many of the players at times is down to the on-field training and how Wenger insists on taking the training himself. I really believe that you need to freshen things up on that front and that we would benefit from a different perspective albeit under Wengers watchful eye. Fergie had other people who took the training sessions. Its seems as though were programmed to play one-way only and if that doesn’t work, that we don’t have the mindset or tools to grind out results defensively.
“When we score don’t all pour forward looking for the ‘killer’ second goal just keep it tight and remember what happened on Tuesday”
Easiest half time talk ever. Why didn’t it happen ?
Things can only get worse? How very wonderful. I wish the season would end and I could live in the imaginary world between football seasons.
Watching the replay of the second goal, we have all forward and midfield players within Swansea’s defensive 3rd.
The one player I just can’t understand why he is also that far up the pitch is flamini.
There is seriously just no need for him to be there when there are 6 other arsenal players all trying to score.
Just makes no sense for a professional side..and our mainstay DM
The clip of the 30 seconds prior to that goal is so naive it beggars belief in slow motion replay
Stan Kranky @ 25 Hahahahhaaaaahahaaaaaa
McLaren boss Ron Dennis loses it. I never knew he was an Arsenal fan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMxiGI7Rhlo
As NBN mentioned above their second goal came when OX was near Chambers but OX didn’t do a lot and watched Chambers being outplayed allowing the cross to come in.
The fact is Chambers is not a right back! He’s a center back so why not swap Monreal with Chambers? If he needs to learn at least he’s beside Per who is probably able to instruct him a little and perhaps he would have made more of that cross as expected of a CB.
I real feel sorry for Monreal at this moment as he had a very solid game until that cross.
I agree Esso I’m going into hiding for the next 13 too!
Cynic @55
You can’t really blame him.
So depressing and no supporter (least of all me after 43 years) derives anything but sheer pain and upset from it all. No point discussing what we’re seeing on the pitch anymore. None whatsoever, it’s so blindingly obvious. The two worthwhile discussion points for me now are off the pitch ; 1/ The club is now inherently sick and the Manager is cornered in a 2-3 month vacuum and a downward spiral. The commercial value of the club is in question and perhaps even in play. Does a buyer (a White Knight if you like, Dein-orchestrated or Usmanov even) see a more attractive entry level and could Kroenke blink here given his shares may have dipped in value but he would still be massively in profit. Ok…I know he’s generally a long-term player, but still. 2/ We all know the problem on the pitch is directly related to an imbalanced player-investment/disposal programme in the summer. I’m still interested to know what happened at the end because it’s key to understanding the club’s structure. Wenger wanted a DM and also CB cover, don’t believe for one second the “we couldn’t find the right players”. There was a monumental, commercial cock-up possibly because purchases were on hold until Besiktas were overcome and then we bungled it with too little time. Is this the case because such lack of ambition, basic commercial competence and conservatism will never be overcome. If, on the other hand, I’m completely wrong and Wenger alone ballsed it up and scarpered off to the Eternal City for a bit of site-seeing, what the bl*ody hell is the CEO of the blo*dy year doing about it ? This is a great Bar/Forum (the best) so I personally would like to see the dialogue cranked up in this way without any accusations or name-calling. There’s a lot of knowledge in here and if we can share that and somehow see some light at the end of the tunnel to calm us all down a bit ….then the Bar will have delivered some much-needed therapy. Although far be it from me to say how all the regular contributors here should interact and post. COYG.
@Joe, exactly my thoughts, i did not feel we played badly yesterday as we did mid week. We had 10 minute lull for those 2 goals and that switch off caused us the game.
I cannot understand this feeling sorry for Alexis, sorry i feel sorry for all, i love the guy to bits but he walks of chomping his feet or mouth of whatever makes no difference, he plays for Arsenal and he is a part of it thick and thin.
I felt bad for Chambers, he is been chastised and the kid will find it tough to handle all though he seems to be made of sterner stuff. He was left high and dry yesterday and i blame ox who otherwise had a terrific game as well as Per who should have supported him than allowing the runs knowing very well that Calum was on a card and he would not put in a tackle.
Flamini had a good game but the moment Bony left it felt he relaxed, in fact the whole team did and that hurt. Sigurdsson who had been reduced to nothing by flamini had one moment of brilliance and that was the key.
Arsenal and the boss need to have a strong hard look into themselves and wonder where it is going wrong. Blaming Wenger alone is not the solution but then he is a part of the blame to. Wenger out is stupidity and that to now during the season, jan cannot come soon but till then we play the games that will determine the season. The break has come at the right time, a time for introspection than blame game, hope the players realize who they play for.
SCgooner @58,
All your points have merit but what is now more worrying is this which I was told about from a friend who was at the Liberty stadium last evening and confirmed here; Arsenal fans fighting with each other in the stands! That’s a shocking new development which can’t be ignored, and from the usually die-hard and resilient away fans!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GdpJy9oF8XM
That’s truly shocking DDC. Those away fans are incredible, only drowned out yesterday at 2-1.
Despite all the results or lack of with the team, still am of the opinion that to be truly pessimistic, we’ll need to have all our first teamers back before judgement is to be passed.
Maybe this will come as a good lesson to be fully stocked with some backup of the backups too!
Most depressing is the chavs have kicked into gear while everyone else is stuck in reverse.
Up The Arse!
😀
Joe@47: You point about midfield weakness makes me wonder if AW wasn’t being so dumb in pursuing as many as he could in the last window.
Mark the Spark, Porco Rosso, SCG: My 2-cents is that AW would have bought a CB in the summer if he could have found one. My supposition is that he couldn’t find a top-quality experienced defender who was prepared to sit on the bench with Mertesacker and Koscielny as first choice, or who he couldn’t prise away without silly money, like David Luiz, for whom PSG paid £50 million. What was available would have been no better than, say Monreal (who is turning out to be a decent, if no better Premiership CB), keeping Sagna, or, heaven forfend, buying Squillaci, who was, don’t forget, an experienced, title-winning defender and a French international when he joined us. If you look at the best CB’s joining Premiership clubs this summer past they were retreads like Lescott, Senderos, Ferdinand and Dawson, most of whom moved to be sure of playing week in, week out. So AW did what he is, admittedly, always more comfortable doing, bought someone unheralded who he could groom for the job, in this case Chambers who was intended to be the 3rd CB, with Hayden and Pleguezuelo vying for 4th CB. What has made it all go pear-shaped is the injuries to Kos and Debuchy, which has left the back four with an emergency pairing in the middle and a right back learning their Premiership trade, regardless of whether that is Chambers or Bellerin. With hindsight it looks like managerial failure, because we are facing just about the worst possible outcome of Murphy’s Law, but not, I would argue, managerial negligence. I would be a lot readier to point the finger at the failure to land a DM; there was quality available, albeit at a price. I would agree with SCG that not having CL football guaranteed when the summer window opened, could have been a serious constraint. Or was management too occupied with landing Alexis, Debuchy, Ospina, and Chambers?
ATG: My point was the Ox was back with Chambers. He was preventing Montero cutting inside, which is where he should have been as that is the first path defenders should cut off; they forced Montero to go the long way round, on the outside, which is textbook defending. That Montero skinned Chambers has nothing to do with the Ox’s positioning.
Joe @ 47: wouldn’t take that much solace in having only two losses. I look at the draws (five) as either a “win draw” or a “loss draw”, and would view only Everton as a clear “win draw”. And, if you aggregate the definite “loss draws” — to poor teams such as Leicester, Hull (at home!), and LWCs (at home!) — that’s 3 points from 9, or really two more losses. Four losses from eleven played is far from good return.
Ned,
Excellent post: agree wholeheartedly on both your points in relation to a 4th CB and the obvious and far more important signing of a DCM.
Bayonne,
Your absolutely right. And I take no solace from the results at all this season – we’ve dropped way too many points. I take solace from the fact that we’ve played so poorly and we’re somehow still in contention in many of the competitions. And by contention, I must admit that in relation to the league, I mean contention of qualifying for a CL spot. I never thought we would win the PL.
But my primary point is that there is no point in getting anymore down about a poor situation. We’ve just got to get on with it and hope that we can find some form and rectify matters January.
If away fans are starting to say these things then there is definitely something wrong with us and if they go to an away game thinking we are going for a draw, the empty wallet dude is spot on thought!
It’s embarrassing for a club like Arsenal!
Bayonne, Before the Swansea game, I saw a quote from AW that we were four points behind where he expected us to be after 11 games, so two of those draws must definitely fall into your ‘loss draws’ column. Now we must be seven points behind the target for 12 games, or almost one-third of the way through the season. Just need to go on a 26-game winning run…
Dapper Dan, ATG: the curious thing about that video clip is that someone stuck an “In Arsene we trust” sticker on the interviewee’s jacket right at the beginning and the interviewee paid it no attention. Didn’t even glance at it, let alone remove it. Doubly odd given he spent the next two and a half minutes arguing that AW should go.
NBN
I have to disagree here regarding the CB issues. Arsene thought he would outsmart everyone and bought Chambers as a Vermalen replacement, Debuchy for Sagna etc. Then he thought that Diaby will be able to play in the DM position but Diaby still has problems and when he kicks a ball his muscles twitch so much he needs a month break and horse placenta treatment for another month afterwards . Then the injuries piled up, Giroud, Debuchy, Ozil, and Koscielny!
I can guarantee there were loads of CB’s better than Monreal and Chambers put together out there who play in European clubs. They would be itching to play for a club like Arsenal and as we can state the obvious and see the opportunity would be brilliant for them to make a mark for themselves (since Koscielny was playing with a chronic Achilles tendons since Community Shield), as we are in a dire need of a CB.
The DM issue has no explanation because it was a very obvious position that needed strengthening and it was ignored too.
This for me is why we are in this troublesome situation. I certainly will not loose hope because that would be madness and I wouldn’t be able to call myself an Arsenal supporter, come the game against the Mancs I will get behind the team and manager for that matter, however I’m really tired with the same old mistakes happening over and over again. I did honestly think that winning the The FA Cup would put even more hunger in those player souls, that it would be a spring board for them to aim higher so far I have not seen any of that. So what wrong is it the players is it the manager or is someone else higher up responsible? Same old mistakes not recognised, same mistakes keep on happening as if it was a normal thing for a club like Arsenal! Away fans not even considering a win perhaps looking for a draw? Any Arsenal game now is like a lottery you just don’t know which Arsenal will turn up and it needs to be addressed and I hope Arsene will make it right.
Ned @66.
Look again.
It says “In Arsene we Rust”
Thanks for the review ‘holic.
I am extreamly dissapointed with yesterday’s result.
@H2H
Whatever each of us thinks of the manager, there can be few slogans in all of recorded human history shitter than “In Arsene We Rust”.
It doesn’t even make any fucking sense.
Oh, and I’ll join you in your disappointment. Just as well we’ve only a fortnight until the next game, eh?
NBN @66,
The “In Arsene we trust” sticker was meant to be ironic and sarcastic. The inter-fan fighting in the stadium was real and cannot just be ignored if we truly all do love our club. We have big problems and there is now a palpable gap developing between the fans expectations and the clubs internal hierarchy. In such cases, there is invariably always one winner!
NBN,
It actually says “In Arsene we Rust”.
How on earth Holic can you give AW and his coaches a free pass over their game management? They may as well stay in the dressing room playing with their guide dogs as they are obviously visually impaired – and brain dead – when in the dugout. Perhaps you should join them and play “Go Fish” as you act as though “there’s nothing to see here, everyone move along please” in your most insouciant piece. Show some impatience and annoyance for God’s sake. Seek answers about training methods , game preparation, coaching skills and game management. I have been taking a long –and biased –view on the Arsenal Football Club since 1953 and will continue to do so. I do admire their primary “play football”style of game but surely by now, Emirates Stadium notwithstanding, AW should have learned enough to find and keep together a more stable squad of players who can be counted on to put in a consistent, professional, self assured, team performance. My heart drops when I say this and you may well edit the following remarks out — with my blessing — but I have to hand it to the S#@$% they set the gold standard for the English game in the ’60’s played intelligent football, taking no prisoners in defence and Bobby Smith just tapping in or calmly heading in at will after great set up work and they did that week after week after week. Quickly let me say I am equally pleased the Spuds are also losing their way at present. I hope it stays that way forever or at least until they reach non league status.
Agreed N7.
Stupid turn of phrase.
DanC.
We are a fanbase divided, this is not new, it has been like that for quite a while now. What was mostly a keyboard phenomenem has spilt over to the bars, clubs and terraces The few times I have been over in the last couple of seasons I have witnessed some very, shall we say, heated discussions. There were opinions so divided and intrenched that for an outsider looking in it would be hard to see that these were actually supporters of the same team.
We as a group seem to have lost any perspective of the middle ground, a “you are either with us or against us” mentatality reigns. If you think we’re underperforming or question our transfer policy then you are a fully fledged member of the WOB, if you believe however, that we are just in a dip and that things will turn around, you are immeadiatly branded an AKBer, there is no room for grey in this most black and white of worlds, and that is a frightening state to find yourself in.
N7 @70,
Unless your Steel is no longer galvanised for whatever reason! 😉
H2H @75,
Sadly it’s reflective of the times in which we now live. Patience is a virtue long gone!
It’s one or the other and one could argue that it’s the unjust financial burden that’s rapidly escalating the discontent!
DanC @77.
That would indeed explain the discontent among those who attend, however, it runs much deeper then that. You only have to read some of the reactions on the last post here immeaditly after the final whistle to see examples of both sides of the coin, tbh I stopped reading after a few because it all seemed a bit over reactionary to me.
I personally believe that it’s a social media driven disease, All the available information transforms everybody into specialists, we all know what’s best for our club and our opinions and views are being fed 24/7, there are sites and forums dedicated to either one side or the other. You can surround yourself with like minded individuals who will all feed off your pain and agree with your stance further strengthening your belief that your opinion is the righteous one.
Unfortunatly there is no solution, just as there is no right nor wrong. Just battlelines drawn in the sand.
I do love it when people come in the bar and harangue ‘Holic for publishing his views on the game.
Imagine: the sheer impertinence of starting and maintaining a popular football blog and resolutely refusing – refusing! – to hold exactly the views that some bloke off the Internet expects you to have. Disgraceful.
It is my hope that in future ‘Holic stops this “writing down his own thoughts” nonsense and instead focuses on ensuring that his postings are packed with “impatience” (apparently now a virtue) and “annoyance”.
I bet Pierre is the kind of bloke who stands in the middle of a Chinese restaurant loudly berating the manager for not serving pasta. Or, even worse, the kind who strides into an Arsenal bar and praises the LWCs.
Deary me.
Beat me to it there N7.
(although you did it better then I could of 😉 )
Nice observation, H2H @75.
Totally agree N7 @79
still smarting over the draw to anderlecht?
digging large chunks of flesh out of your forearms with your blunt fingernails after the capitulation in wales?
well, we got beckham! three of ’em, actually. doesn’t that just make it all better?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2261472-david-beckhams-son-brooklyn-reportedly-will-sign-with-arsenal?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national
and n7, spot on. takes all kinds, doesn’t it?
Not sure what’s more worrying the results/performances or my Apathy to said scores/performances, bad times 🙁 Saying that didn’t think the Performance was as bad as some are making out – It’s wasn’t good but have seen worse that’s for sure 🙂
Anyway onwards and upwards – Up The Arse !
He hasn’t signed anything yet. scruz.
Can he play Centre Half 🙂 🙂
Perspective.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01248/carcliff_1248817c.jpg
Maybe we should have applied ze handbrake?
Heh Chippy.
Even if he could we’d probably use him as a right back. 😉
Re: scruz @87. Maybe one or more of the three can “spice” things up a bit? 😉 Bring in Dad for an all-Beckham midfield, say?
H2H @78,
Indeed the 24/7 social media driven world in which we all live in now is both a blessing and a curse in equal measure. Seeing the wood for the trees is what we all try to do and sadly, it’s now becoming more entrenched in one camp or the other. When you make a rod for your own back with previous success and achievement, it only gives you a respite for a certain period of time with the capital you have earned. How long that time is, it’s up to the individual in question in these modern times to judge. What they now consider to be success and achievement is totally a personal judgement with many choosing a camp that neither side can say is 100% correct but they must be willing to explain and defend their argument. Change is never easy for anyone!
From my point of view, glaring mistakes have been, and are still being, made and for that reason those who cannot afford to continue to travel, sit, watch and support their boyhood club, knowing that it is their hard-earned money that they have worked so hard to get that they are spending, makes the “i’m a mug” feeling become a genuine thought process of resentment for being taken advantage of by those that so much loyalty has been devoted. “Be the best we can be” is the mantra many state in this bar and the vast majority both here and outside would settle for that, but to state it with resignation, sadly people now are moving to the camp of “Arsene will never do that again” at an alarmingly pessimistically rate as a consequence. It is very sad to see but unfortunately it is the reality of the 24/7 media world be now live in. Victoria Concordia Crescit. I certainly hope so….
Couldn’t agree more Dapper Dan.
h2h, they’re all three on our books at their varying ages. yeah, we haven’t signed the eldest, but he’s quality… and the right age for our midfield or defense.
If he has his ma’s upper body bulk, he’ll be able to play CB. :0/
Dr F made a good point last night when he mentioned how fed up he was with saying the same things. I feel exactly the same. A lot of us are repeating ourselves. So I will merely say that if Wenger replaced Vermaelen , an experienced international centre back with a 19 year old who had never played there in his life ( please note all posters who claim he was a centre back) and signed nobody else he either has extraordinary faith in the boy ( goes without saying ) or he has lost the plot quite acutely. Yes he has signed prodigies in the past but they haven’t been thrust into the toughest league physically in the world immediately and he has normally had other back- up.
I have to say I don’t think Monreal is cutting the mustard as a centre back but I don’t blame him a bit. It’s clearly not his position. Just watch the Anderlecht away game if you don’t believe me. The Squillaci incident burned Wenger because he was so poor and in the end we just couldn’t play him.
I rarely take issue with NBN who is a veritable fount of football knowledge but I think we could have replaced Vermaelen for a fee less than Barca paid us for him with , for example:
Reid , Vlaar, Schar, Lescott( free, left- footed and experienced) , Coloccini, Van Dijk, Olsson, Davies, Caulker and Hangeland. Some would have been better than others but they all could have done a decent job.
Arsene why didn’t you? I bet at least eight of them would have walked to North London
H2H, Dapper Dan: You are right. The old peepers can’t be what they used to be. Or a case of them reading what they want to see. Either way, they stand corrected (or in need of correction).
N7G@79: 🙂
Square pegs in round holes will be our down fall.
Bless you N7, but I think Pierre has not broken any of my rules. Clearly frustrated, as many are, he has put his view across without straying over any boundary. Contrary to the belief of an ignorant and abusive few I welcome that. However, thank you for your support. It’s much appreciated.
ttg: can’t agree there. Lescott left City because he wanted more playing time. He would never have move to us and always struggled at City anyway. Olsson is far too slow to play for us and is generally a bit shit. Same goes for Hangeland. Caulker? Wasn’t good enough for Tottenham.
Et cetera. It is also one thing to look good in teams that sit back and rarely try anything constructive.
Of course I would have wanted another defender (and a defensive midfielder), but I don’t think signing backup players who actually can do better than what we already have is that easy. I actually think it probably would have been easier to sign a player who could have become first choice.
It’s all a bit bobbins.
Well in Zico….some might cotton others, others will reel away.
+ on – ruined my glory position 😉
Or some might cotton on Ups. 😉
Quick though
Oh dear…my 101 bit of a cock up – watching our defence is catching 😉
( put it down to my dotage )
Some great posts above from H2H, N7 & Dapper DC amongst others. Even way down here on the Jurassic Coast, gooners I chat to are becoming exasperated. I think many of the reasonable ones amongst us realise it’s just a bad spell we’re going through but feel frustrated that nothing appears to being done by AW & the coaches, they sit in the dug out either head in hands or berating the 4th official. A bit of “encouragement” at the players would not go amiss. Even the appearance of doing something would go some way to lessening the negative attitude around at the moment.
Shurely we can’t be too far away, the squad additions this summer were all first class signings and we kept all of the important players from last year. Of course the short comings in defence have come to bite us in the arse quicker than even our worst fears. Whatever we think of AW at the moment, he is going nowhere unless the season ends in total failure – something that is more unlikely than likely. If we fail to meet our minimum targets however, then it’s a whole new ball game I fear.
Meanwhile COYRRRs
You don’t need to be an expert to see that Chambers was on the limit for most of the game tracking Montero. We saw it, Arsene saw it and I’m sure Ox saw it. Any minor tactical adjustment might have saved us the three points. I know there is a tactical plan put forth before the game….wondering why we couldn’t adapt when we saw danger.
Re: Uply @105. Berating the 4th official may yet bear fruit. In fact, shouldn’t we still be berating the officials for missing the offside call on Anderlecht’s goal? It is one important facet of the famous phrase, Cannons Outward.
I agree with TTG, especially on those defenders Lars didnt mention.
There were good defenders available in the summers market.
Reid and Shaar are both quality defenders, both good in air with great body strentgh and decent technical abilities. Would be a very welcomed addition in this squad. Both ready to fight for the first team, IMO, both in final years of their contracts with the clubs, so it was much easier to lure themI guess.
Then there is Nkoulou, Marseille defender that we are apparently scouting for a while and would not cost much because is in final year of his contract too.
Van Dijk is also very tall and good in air and extremely quick for a CB, little bit adventitious though, but great potential there. Good backup, can play as a DM too if I am not mystaken.
Then, there are two Greeks that we tried to buy, but failed to do it, Manolas and Sokratis, both quality defenders bought under 15m price tag.
Benatia is the real deal of the summer and Bayern bought him quite expensively for 25m, but he is worth every penny. He is the available quality Arsene always speaks about, so why didn’t he go for him?
Anyway, the biggest miss was not going after Mustafi, part of the WC German squad, sold for less then 8m to Valencia, who is young but experienced, big but fast and have PL and international experience and most importantly can cover both CB and full back. Can score goals too, he really impressed me, great player.
Interesting list, Ttg. Certainly some players in there who would have strengthened the squad as 3rd CB. Reid, Schar and van Dijk, in particular, are all up-and-coming quality defenders and potential first-team starters.
But not sure it undermines my availability-last-summer point, given we were shopping then for someone who could expect to be sitting on the bench for much of the season. Not too many potential walkers there, I would argue, at least not last summer.
We scouted Reid in the previous January window, but couldn’t sign him then, or again in the summer apparently. He is 26. Apart from when he was out for 3 months with a sprained his ankle (clearly Arsenal material right there), he was an ever present at West Ham. Must assume he didn’t want to move to sit on the bench. His contract is up at the end of this season, so the Hammers might be amenable to cash in on him in January, and the BFG will be a year older so he might fancy his prospects. One to watch, but if he comes it would have to be as a first-choice CB for the future.
Vlaar is 29 and no one showed much interest in signing him from Villa until Van Gaal, who is even more desperate for defenders than we are. Solid Premiership CB but no more. Though a Dutch international he has only played friendlies, not in tournaments. At 29 probably doesn’t want to be bench warming.
Shar is 22. All the top Premiership clubs are after him. The fact he didn’t move last summer suggests that Basel wanted a prince’s ransom, and/or, as his contract runs out at the end of this season, he (or his agent more likely) thought it worth sitting pat for another 12 months so he can then make a lucrative deal with which ever club he fancies. Upgrade? Certainly. Available? Probably not last summer. Affordable next summer? Sadly, probably not.
Lescott is 32 and should be able to do a job for a top Premiership team for couple more seasons. Would be happy to have him in the team now. But he left Man City to play regularly, and that wouldn’t have been on the cards for sure if he had moved to us. WBA could offer him starts.
Coloccini is 32 now (i.e. two years older than Mertesacker) and probably just past the zenith of his career, but still pretty useful. Like Lescott he is not going to move anywhere where he can’t be sure to start regularly.
Van Dijk is highly promising at 23, though untested outside the Dutch and Scottish leagues, and still hasn’t stepped up from the Dutch U-21s to the full side. We have scouted him as have Man City and Man Utd. He signed for Celtic at the beginning of 2013-14 season (chosing them over Brighton). Difficult to pry away a player at the end of first year of contract if club doesn’t want to sell, and Celtic will want to ginny up a bidding war if they are going to lose him, as they will. His stock is on the rise. It is highly likely he will move to the Premiership next summer.
Olsson is another 30-something under contract until 2016 and is not going to move without guaranteed first team football.
Davies (I assume you mean Curtis Davies) is another 31 year old who has just signed a new three-year contract. Again unlikely to want to move with a guarantee of first-team football.
Caulker is 22. Was at the heart of a relegated Cardiff defense last season and didn’t secure at regular place at Spurs before that. Clearly was being shopped in the summer, but couldn’t land better than QPR, so I am not sure he would have been that much of an upgrade. At best a work-in-progress, and if we are going for that I would take Schar or van Dijk first.
Hangeland is 33 and was dumped by Fulham mid-contract. Now with Palace. Again, available, experienced, and shopped around, but didn’t garner any interest from top clubs. Probably peaked in 2011. But still playing for Norway so probably wants to be sure he is playing regularly ahead of the Euros.
As for Vermaelen, he has yet to play a game for Barca as he is still crocked. Not selling him wouldn’t have left us in any different position than we are now.
Divided fanbase?! : http://i.imgur.com/fhEdSxU.jpg
The two halves of football : http://i.imgur.com/YAfIku4.jpg
After game effects : http://i.imgur.com/vCuyjsS.gif
🙂
Never mind playing out of position, the problem lies predominantly in the quality of the squad. Nothing wrong with it, so long as our ambition is to remain in the premiership and contest the minor CL positions, but well short of that required to be serious Premiership title contenders let alone CL winners.
I rate only Özilla, Alexis, Kos, Theo, Rambo and Jack as good enough (allowing for some of them not playing to their potential currently), with the likes of Santi, OG, Danny, Debauchery and Sir Ches as bench-sitters. We could replace all of the rest to advantage and still need a couple of marquee players (Reus and Hummels still my preferred) to build a winning team.
Nothing like that will happen of course. One, we don’t have the money. Two, we have a manager who wouldn’t spend that much if he had it.
Am I disturbed by this? No. Arsenal would not be Arsenal if trophies were the be all and end of it, not if it meant selling the club’s soul to achieve them. I hate to see us lose, but the price of guaranteeing success as others have done is too high. I prefer to play the majority of games on a relatively level playing field, and will take losses in the best spirit I can muster when they happen. Let the financial bullies buy their wins. They are fooling nobody.
The chavs, a Premiership club only since 1989 after narrowly missing relegation to the old Division 3 a couple of years earlier, don’t even represent Chelsea, they’re based in Fulham. And their financial strength is a very recent development. As recently as 1982 the club changed hands for just £1. That’s one single pound, about what they’re worth today as far as credibility is concerned.
Man $iteh’s greatest trophy-winning period is still back in the ’60s when managed by former Arsenal skipper, the great Joe Mercer, still far and away their most successful manager. After Mercer they went steadily downhill, reaching the depths of Division 3 as recently as 2000, winning nothing at all until 2011 after the oil money flowed in. And let’s not forget Thaksin Shinawatra, $iteh’s first mega-money-owner, who bought the club in 2007 (after failing to buy Fulham and Liverpool, to the credit of both of them) … only to be convicted of corruption and jailed in Thailand necessitating the sale of the club to the Oilymen the following year. If the chavs credibility is worth £1, $iteh’s would be owing money.
Give me a real club, properly managed by football-first managers and board who have made the club far and away the longest serving in England’s top division, now 95 years and counting. That’s 35 years longer than the next longest serving. Only seven teams have even been ever-present in the top flight since the Premiership was formed in 1992 (and they don’t include Man $iteh). And only one of them is the only club in more than a century to go through an entire top division season unbeaten, while also holding the record for successive matches unbeaten. Real records to be proud of.
Victoria Concordia Crescit.
Öskar
“Vlaar is 29 and … Though a Dutch international he has only played friendlies, not in tournaments” (#109)
Say what, Ned? He was about the best defender on show at the last WC, as I commented at the time – only to be told that he was rubbish! I can’t remember who said that but I couldn’t agree less. He had a great WC and would be a great stopgap for us at the very least. This belief that players all just fade away when they hit 30 is nonsense in my view, especially when it comes to defenders.
Öskar
NBN @109,
Vlaar played in the World Cup for the Netherlands this summer; and rather well too. I’d have welcomed him.
OtD @110,
Your argument regarding the Chav$ and Cit$h bears true if Alex Ferguson had not existed in the history of the EPL. The standard by which I appraise Arsene by is by him and not by cunts like Maureen!
OTd@ 110, i believe we can afford Hummels/ Reus if we want to. But like you said I don’t see Wenger buying them. Reus has a rather cheap buy-out Clause and I think Hummels has maybe a year left on his contract. Unless if they don’t want to come, but Arsenal can afford them if we want to. I also don’t see him spending money this January, so folks need not get all pissed off. Looking at the past, history tells us Wenger won’t spend money, he always want to prove to people that he knows better than everyone else.
The monks are having a bad week. Yes, Vlaar did play in the 2014 WC, his first set of tournament appearances in the full Dutch side — albeit at a relatively advanced age. Note, though, that if you look at his Squawka rating for this season in the Premiership so far, it is lower than those of both Monreal and Mertesacker.
If you can put any stock in Squawka data, then we should have bought Curtis Davies. These are the ranking scores for Ttg’s list in the Premiership this season.
Davies 338.46
Mertesacker 284.05
Coloccini 224.42
Reid 213.02
Monreal 204.00
Vlaar 141.43
Lescott 133.88
Caulker 113.54
Hangeland 112.91
Olsson 8.97
Shar, van Dijk n/a
and for comparison, the scores for the whole of last season:
Koscielny 1134.29
Mertesacker 1110.30
Davies 795.02
Caulker 643.94
Vlaar 560.39
Olsson 429.66
Coloccini 397.11
Reid 392.58
Hangeland 269.94
Lescot 201.11
Monreal 174.39
Looks like it’s become AlexisFC vs the rest of the league as only a few are supporting him on the pitch. Let me digress from all that’s already been said with:
1) Has any other Arsenal squad suffered this many injuries ever? I started watching only from 2001 so a newbie compared to a lot of you guys here. I don’t remember any serious injury except Pires vs Newcastle.
2) If not, what do you think is the problem?[Barring of course thugs who get away with ‘he is not that type of boy’ excuses after breaking our players.]
Neither Hummels nor Reus will come cheap, SAG. Reus may have a low buy-out clause, but that only triggers negotiations, it doesn’t guarantee a sale at that price. Reus is probably the most valuable player likely to be available in January or even the summer and other clubs are bound to offer ridiculously higher transfer fees than we could, or should, countenance paying, plus a much higher salary to the player himself (I’ve heard 170k a week mentioned for Reus). Which is why I suggested a deal last summer in which we offered Vermaelen and Özil to Dortmund in exchange for Hummels and Reus, with a cash difference either way. The cash difference being the only money changing hands. That deal would have looked sensational now, when it seems certain Dortmund will lose both players soon, and we may possibly move Özil on.
Öskar
There is some sense in this
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/terry-venables-column-the-only-solution-for-arsenal-is-a-complete-change-of-mentality-9849210.html
Interesting Squawka stats, Ned. I’m just not sure what to make of them. I’ve always liked Hangeland, who is tall, has Norwegian cool, and is actually quite quick for his size. But not on those stats!
Öskar
Not sure about Venables and ‘sense’ together in the same sentence, Bungei (actually I am sure, they don’t go together), but he’s right about the lack of leadership. A captain in the Adams/Vieira mould is exactly what we haven’t got.
Öskar
For me, the centre back thing is a red herring. He wouldn’t have signed half of those listed because they’re cloggers – you need good feet to play for Arsenal these days, and the likes of Hangeland don’t have them and wouldn’t fit our style of passing out from the back. It’s the same reason he never signed Samba when many were screaming for him.
As others have pointed out, it’s not easy convincing someone to come and be fourth choice CB. For most squads (bar City) it’s a role occupied by a promising kid who’s come up through the ranks. At this stage, if we are going to sign in this area I’d much prefer to go for someone top class who can challenge for a first team spot: the BFG is creaking badly this season and may need to be replaced.
Where I think we cocked up last summer was (a) failing to sign a quality DM – as we all said at the time, this should have been the number one item on our “to do” list and it’s incredibly surprising that we went with what we had; and (b) loaning Jenks out if Bellerin isn’t ready to start games. Jenks had started half a dozen games by this stage last term, and allowed Sagna to fill in at CB. If we still had him, Chambers would be playing centre back and we might look a little more solid.
Also think it’s important to place the above debate in context. Arsene Wenger had a higher net spend that any other premier league manager last summer, bar that Dutch bloke with a face liked a waxed ball bag. He spent far more than any Arsenal manager ever has, bought in six players, three of whom went straight into the first team, and broadly speaking spent very well indeed. To say he “wouldn’t spend the money” is daft – he’s clearly not averse to getting the wallet out now the club has cash.
For me, the bigger issue has been our failure to get performances from those we already had in the squad. Ramsey, Per, Santi, etc – they look jaded to me, and way off last season’s form. I also think we spent too long dicking about with a 4141 and it’s cost us a great deal in terms of cohesion and balance, even now we appear to have dropped it.
For all the above reasons, I don’t place too much stress on the fourth choice CB issue. We could have signed Hangeland, but we’d still have been getting caught with six players in front of the ball when protecting a one goal lead, opposing players would still have run directly through our midfield on the break, and all of that has been far scarier to me, personally, than anything Nacho Monreal has done at CB.
@Holic – no worries Guvnor. Just keep doing what you’re doing – there are a lot of us who admire your calm, balanced approach and your posts are what make this community what it is.
Would you give Arsene Wenger £20m in January, when you can be fairly certain his response to what’s going on will be to buy another striker and perhaps yet another winger?
In total agreement with N7 above, apart from the bit where he comes over all Andy Townsend.
For me, 😉
Here are some stats on defenders from the start of this season from top 5 European leagues.
http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#performance-score#player-stats#top-5-european-leagues|season-2014/2015#all-teams#defender#16#44#0#0#90#08/08/2014#11/11/2014#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total
I’m sure we could have picked a bargain from this list somewhere along the line if we really would have tried to be serious about the whole situation and not relying on Chambers and his young age and inexperience.
@zico
I’ve dyed my hair like a bunch of bananas and everything.
Surely the league cannot be over after just 11 games??
So, which is worst? The Chavs winning the league? Winning the league with Cesc or going unbeaten and winning the league with Cesc?
It’s this unbeaten streak which is winding me up a little. If they lose that, then that will be a little weight off of the shoulders. The other scenarios are not as irritating. After all, this is a team which the chavs used to swear, none of our players could make it into their starting 11. Well what do you know? Cesc is not only in the starting 11, week in week out, but he actually runs their midfield.
But we always knew that would happen. Didn’t we? Now back to defending as a unit!
Defending!!!
Off…
Ttg,
I have to say, I would probably have played Bellerin at right back and Chambers in the centre as well against Swansea but I can understand why Wenger did not opt for that combo. Its tough enough to carry one inexperienced 19yr old in a back four, but expecting them to carry two is a big ask.
Ned,
Superb work and another one of your posts backed up with detail, thought and logic behind your arguments. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head behind the logic of buying a 4th choice CB.
I would probably find myself agreeing with N7 in that we should now buy a player who is capable of coming into that back line immediately as Kos has been injury prone this season. Preferably someone with PL experience. The alternative is to buy a top class DCM who can also play at CB – which would be my preferred choice.
I wouldn’t agree with the Jenkinson argument though. Jenks at 22 needed to play more regularly and clearly wasn’t ready to start in that role for the first team. Debauchy is a far superior player. So I could see the logic in putting him out on loan. Bellerin needed a run in the first team also and so far the lad has impressed. While I think he’s still a little raw, I do feel he’s a technically better player than Jenks. Depending on how Debauchys recovery goes – I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jenks back come January presuming there’s a clause enabling the release.
Listening to the above, many people still think the transfer window was a deliberate strategy, albeit not one people agree with. That itself gives the Manager and the club far too much credit. It wasn’t, it was a cock-up. Of course Wenger wanted to protect Chambers, just like he protected Theo and Ox before him. But thru the cock-up he’s flogging him to death and destroying his confidence. I believe in the last few days (far too late as I’ve said) he went after Carvalho (30 mill was too much and the Cambell sweetner on the swap didnt work) and Schneiderlin too (naieve, the Saints had laready lost far too many players). They probably went after Reid or somebody for CB too but, in pinning down Wellbeck after Giroud’s injury (and purely as fortuitous fallout of the Falcao deal, let’s face it) they ended up juggling too many balls and probably ended up running around like a panicky scene from Dad’s Army. And let’s not be at all surprised that Wenger was more focused on the attacker (Welbeck) than the rearguard. I don’t get all this stuff of “Oh u can’t get him because he’ll only be 3 rd choice or 4th choice or whatever”. What Boll*x. Good players will alweays aspire to be number 1 and anyway the package is critical too. Also you look to versatility and serious, experienced pros who have the physicality for a battle..think Ivanovic, think Sagna (God, how we miss him). Guys who can switch between DM and CB NOW, not in 3 years like Chambers will be able to. Stop giving the club the benefit of the doubt over these cock-ups and failings. It’s gone on too long. And letting Jenkinson go ? That was 1/2 cock-up and 1/2 stupid, just as letting Coqelin go is dumb too (what will he do if BOTH bits of Flameta are injured?). Oh sorry, forgot…Diaby’s pheonix like return AND transformation into the DM role he has never demonstrated an aptitude for. The experimentation lab just keeps trundling along.
Great research as ever, NBN.
N7, agreed,
although I’ll have to bow to your superior knowledge of waxed ball bags.
😉
Joe,
I see your point but I think Arsene has hypnotised you into his way of thinking with the utility DM /CB combination player.
Personally, (not- for me, zico) I think we badly need both, not a one size fits all solution.
Top priority – Defensive midfielder.
Second. – Centre Back to compete for first eleven place.
Fine posts OTD @111 – heartfelt
and N7 @121 – flawless logic as ever.
I still find incomprehensible our failure to address our major defensive deficits adequately.
I’ll second bath’s thumbs-up for OTD’s @111. Top post, that.
I rate only Özilla, Alexis, Kos, Theo, Rambo and Jack as good enough (allowing for some of them not playing to their potential currently)
Personally I would remove Wilshere from that list, as he doesn’t have the speed to play in midfield for a top side. Bags of ability but no pace at all.
I’d have the Aaron Ramsey of last year in the list. The one who keeps it simple and does extraordinary things. But I wouldn;t have the Ramsey who thinks he has to prove he’s a good player in the list at all. That guy belongs at a mid table club, like a common or garden David Bentley.
@128 scgooner
I couldn’t agree more with you I don’t get this 3rd and 4th choice melancholy. Imagine if any of you is a young semi decent CB? You come to a team like Arsenal you know exactly what’s in front of you right? That is why you work hard and you are committed 100% to the cause and you wait for your opportunity. You impress you stay in the first 11 you don’t you go back to bench when the better CB comes back from injury. The fact is you never know really who you are going to buy he could be a flop and he could be a rising star!
Chambers confidence was definitely left to the dogs on that right flank, I think Monreal would do better there!
Exactly right ATG. The other way of looking at this is how come we can stack the squad full of midfielders and strikers but just 6 defenders is ok or, more accurately, it’s ok down the years to collect so many midfielders and strikers (usually tiny lads too by the way !). Take a look at our squad on the website. There were 6 defenders listed for ages with Bellerin and Hayden only added recently to make 8. So ignore those 2 because Wenger seems to anyway. Add Flam and Arteta to make 8 shall we say “defensive” players. That is 8 squad players for 5 or sometimes 6 (if he plays the pivot) postions on the pitch. That leaves SEVENTEEN (8 midfielders and 9 strikers) for the other 4 or 5 positions on the pitch. A few 3 rd, 4th or 5 th choice players in there !!! It’s not completely deliberate but it’s mismanagement and incompetence on a massive scale. Sorry, I’m now also going down the same well-worn (squad imbalance) path and stating the bleeding obvious, must go for lunch.
ScGoner@128, I agree with all what you said. Wenger thought he could outsmart the transfer window. That is the only reason we are in this shit we are right now. The sooner people start to see and accept this fact, we all will keep arguing among ourselves. David Dein brought in Wenger, that’s why i think he was able to get things done. It’s harder for Ivan Gazidis to do anything because Wenger was there before he got there. And this will continue till Wenger runs down his contract and leave and Gazidis brings in someone that he can manage or at least be able to put in his own input. Wenger doesn’t answer to nobody right now, I don’t think so, I might be wrong though.
Oskar,
Just had time to read your very long and excellent @111. 😉
SAG@114: history tells us Wenger won’t spend money, he always want to prove to people that he knows better than everyone else.
Yes, like this summer for example when he only spent about £75 million.
scgooner: Signing another attacker made a lot of sense. That we needed a DM and more defenders is completely unrelated to that. If you look at last season, we actually defended rather well apart from a few well-known disasters. In fact, if you take away the 17 goals conceded at Eastlands, Anfield and Stamford Bridge our defensive record last season was very, very good. The problem was not scoring enough and we all saw how Giroud was played into the ground so for me it made a lot of sense to strengthen the attack as well.
Arthur/scgooner/SAG: Imagine if any of you is a young semi decent CB? You come to a team like Arsenal you know exactly what’s in front of you right?
But we already have those. Chambers, for example. Then we have Hayden. And semi-decent isn’t enough, we need top-class defenders.
Also, the injury to Debuchy was desperately unlucky (or, if you will, the result of an utterly shocking assault by James Milner that amazingly didn’t get him sent off) and having him around would have made some difference, but like N7 says the mythical 3rd/4th choice CD is a bit of a red herring. Our main problems start higher up the pitch, we could have the best back four in the world and they’d still struggle with the lack of protection they get from the midfield and attack.
@ OTD 111
Really enjoyed reading that piece! I know we’ve had our differences over the last month or two (our contrasting opinions on Welbeck, and my scoffing of your belief that we can get by on a Wilshere/Ramsey DM double-pivot – which I still think is nonsense by the way), but credit where credit’s due….
I also by and large agree with your ‘hierarchical’ ranking of the squad. I’d probably drop Wilshere a level down to the second-tier of ‘potential’/good squad-fillers, and maybe elevate Debuchy to the upper-tier of top-rank performers (I didn’t see many better RBs at the World Cup – a view strengthened by his stellar first month in an Arsenal shirt).
Also, to touch on another theme of this thread, we’re all ultimately speculating on Arsenal’s squad recruitment strategy this summer, but if Wenger was only looking casually at CB options under the auspice of at best adding a ‘squad-filler’, a 3rd/4th choice level player, then he made a substantial oversight. It overvalues Per & Kos’ untouchability as first-choice, negates the obvious about what to do when one or both of those two get injured (particularly the better one, Koscielny), and quite simply doesn’t set out the ruthless squad-building ethos you need if you want to be challenging and ultimately winning the major domestic and European honours.
Lars, Yea, I know what you mean. The Giroud injury certainly messed things up and I certainly wasn’t complaining when Welbeck arrived, but it did follow follow Sanchez and the returning Campbell. Not to mention the further weaning of Sanogo. Definitely not to mention perhaps…. I think what you say about 2013/14 is correct too. AW looked at the two problems we had last year ; only scoring 65 odd goals and getting mauled by big teams. He seems to have decided the former was the bigger issue and went for attack = the best form of defence, like Man U always have I suppose. I’m not sure a majority of fans would agree with that prioritisation AT ALL and it seemed to ignore all the previous years before 2013/14 when we scored plenty but defended like sh*t. Those defeats hurt so much and the 1-0 (only) wins were beautifully Arsenalesque, esp for for us old farts. We also ended up just 7 points off being Prem Champs and better defending in the key games could actually (amazingly) have givcen us the title with a “Goals For” total of < 70. On the CBs, who said Chambers at 19 mill was absolutely right for us at this time ? Not me. He looks great on a 5 year view. But who of us honestly thought Mert-Kos could go another 14 mths without injury straight after a WC ? Deboosh ? Well we got him instead of the versatile Sangna PLUS Jenks didnt we. One final point on prioritising attack over defence. Has this meant AW spends less time nurturing our defensive players, such as Bartley, Jenks, Miguel, Yennaris, Traore(s), even Senderos and Upson way back ? The experiments, the cosseting and the protection seems to last a lot longer with upfield players (NB 55?). Just an impression I have anyway. Your last point on midfielders defending is irrefutable and bang on. Our guys are rubbish at it but I say that's down to the ethos of the coach, it must be. Look at Oscar these days…not a big bloke but pressing, tackling and covering really well.
RIP
The paragraph
Haha Zico, fair cop. I’m Irish, haven’t your read James Joyce’s “Ulysses” ?
Good posts Gregoire 138 and sc 139.
Fatal gamble. The key was not to find a willing 3/4th choice CB but a younger aspiring 1st choice challenger for one of the CB spots in the first 11.
As to priorities in training, Nigel Winterburn was on Sky this week observing that under GG 80% of the training sessions was about defending. Under the current regime it’s 20%.
About 3 pages sc.
That guy had too many mushrooms for breakfast 😉
Hi All
I`m struggling to blame our defence as we could only put out what we have left. The midfield gave little or no cover to our defence and when you have one of the worst LB in the PL playing at CB you have a problem. I dont or have never rated Monreal at all and against Gomis it was a joke. I think Monreal got no more than 6 inchs off the ground which isnt a good start when the attacker is 6 inschs taller to start with. BFG was no where to be seen which was also a concern and of course not a midfielder to be seen.
Rambo and santi are a shadow of themselves from last season. It would be very hard for Rambo to repeat his heroic`s of last season but he isnt even close to any form. Santi drifts in and out of games the same way Ozil does and its not exceptable for Ozil and its not exceptable for santi. The captain and flamini are exposed all to easy in their positional play.
It makes no sense that AW didnt get one of the lads to help out Chambers as he got skinned again and again. However when asked about this in an interview he said he couldnt see Chambers having a problem during the game. WTF !!!!!!!
More or less conceeding the title in early November isnt sitting well with me. Have we fallen that far from grace that not only is 4th supposed to be a trophy that we now dont even bother going for the title. If so lower a season ticket too £300 and then we will claim we cant go for titles as we have no money to buy players.
Under the heading of buying players, we need a DM and CB urgently and can they be over 5 7 inches please.
Lars@137, what has spending 75million got to do with the discussion. Yea he spent 75million , but we made money selling players too so what’s your point. He didn’t get what we all knew what’s needed. And I will say it again, he was trying to be too smart for his own good. We were lucky last year with Mert/Kos injury wise, what made him think it was going to be the same this year considering our luck with injury. The buck starts and end with him.
@SAG
In the context of people arguing that Wenger refuses to spend money, the fact that he had the second highest net spend in the league last summer is clearly relevant.
Lars
I wouldn’t call Hayden (maybe Chambers) semi decent yet I would call him learning the trade, semi decent in my eyes are players who play every week in their leagues. Week in week out they practice and they are regulars in their respective leagues. Obviously Hayden hasn’t got much of Arsene’s trust yet hence buying a player who plays week in week out is a much better option the way I look at it. Yes it’s a gamble but even Hayden is a gamble, you never know what you going to get at the end of the day I suppose.
Anyway there no point carrying this on because it wont change a thing and we are still short in that department. We shall see how serious Wenger is about this issue when January comes around and what he’s willing to do about it.
N7
For the first time ever?
Excuse me for breathing, but may I just join in the conversation a little here?
Only teasing N7 🙂
@ ATG
For the second summer running.
He’s spent about £110m in the last two summer windows. Net spend probably around the £80m mark.
There are plenty of things you can legitimately criticise him for, but to say we don’t have a fourth choice CB because he “won’t spent money” is an argument totally unsupported by the facts.
@ ATG
You utter bastard.
Now I look even more po-faced than usual.
And just to add one more thing, all the players including the CB’s should get rotated from time to time especially if they are world class!
N7 I knew that would get you going ha ha 🙂
Don’t worry about it mate!
Let’s hope Wenger can fix our current issues which for now is much more important than new signings at the very moment. Yes we should have but we didn’t, I’m also repeating myself like an old record so I will stop it there and hope for better times ahead!
On squad size, we have precisely the same number of defenders and def mids as Chelsea (6 senior defenders, 2 kids. 2 holding midfielders).
I assume that they’re also guilty of “mismanagement and incompetence on a massive scale”?
Or are we seriously saying the number of defensive players is only unacceptable because we have lots of midfielders and strikers (and bear in mind that the figure of 17 includes the likes of Diaby, Gnabry, Akpom and Zelalem)?
Is the quality of our defensive players as high as that of Chelsea? No.
Do we have a far worse injury record? Yes.
But the balance of the squad, taken in isolation, is not the problem, and it certainly isn’t prima facie evidence of incompetence on a massive scale. That’s pure hyperbole.
As I say above: plenty of legitimate things to criticise Wenger for, particularly this season, but after a bad result I do wonder if we’re in danger of deciding that absolutely everything the man does is completely wrong.
Cheers ATG – and I agree that we should focus more on what we already have.
We should be getting better individual performances out of the current squad (with one obvious exception), we should be rotating players more and we should be defending better as a unit.
Okay, good.
May I suggest that our issues so far mainly boil down to performances on the pitch with what we already have. There are a few issues which are unrelated to back up defenders/ defensive midfielders.
Depth is an issue due to injuries, but performance-wise, the responsibility lies with the players already in place.
I will stop there for now!!
“Draw for the amo”
N7
I hold Arsene responsible for this summer buying and some tactical decision he has made during our games which should be noticed by someone who has definitely more knowledge in football than I do, otherwise I wouldn’t be sitting here 🙂
NZ Gooner, so what was the net spend?
N7, I know what you’re up to. You’re hoping I come out with something positive about Chavski and their coach and you’ll say that proves I’m a terrible Arsenal fan and you are a great one ! Not falling for that one ! I would ask you, politely, to get a grip if you think our 3 nineteen year olds are somehow comparable to the guys in the Chelsea defence and, yes, I do note your point was mainly about numbers. And you’re also reminding me we could have bought Cahill one fairly recent January for 6 mill. No retraction from me, gross neglience on a massive scale to end up with the defenders and clapped out defensive midfielders we’ve ended up with. ALL THE MORE SO given the massive spending now underway, which I put, by the way SAG, at net 59 mill (the inflows being Verm/Vela/Fabregas various fees).
It is so refreshing to read here for it makes you believe that there is some sanity after all. Seriously, even though most of us are lamenting here, the way it is done is commendable.
The abuse and the hatred being thrown at Wenger and the players is vitriol. It is tragic to see that and most of it is uncalled for.
I agree we messed up, in fact we have been doing so from 2011 onwards, not in terms of big names but filling in like for like or atleast able replacement to the ones we lost.
Blaming Chambers is ridiculous. He was bought as a backup for Debuchy and just because he had a great start, does not mean you expect him to be the next defensive linchpin. He is still 19 and learning the trade and i am certain he has a fantastic career ahead.
Same way it seems its just a tirade against Wenger with no real solutions. So what should be done to him? sack him in the middle of a season? who will come and take over at such a short notice? Are we even thinking on such things? i hope not.
Has he made mistakes, yes he has and it is bad this time. it is hurting him as much to all of us that the injuries have been bad, mis timed and completely at the wrong times. Whatever be the reason, not buying a cb/dm was and is a mistake. It is hurting to see us playing monreal as cb even though that guy has done a far better job than expected. Wenger insisting that we have enough quality is wrong, we do not, we have around 5-6 very good players and rest are decent. Most teams do have more or less the same but the difference is they accept it and mould the team to get the best out of all 11. Wenger seems to install a false sense of belief in certain players that they are very good, sorry they are decent and they need to understand their limitations.
Finally, the club is not in a crisis and i can bet it never truly will be. It is just the frustration of keyboard warriors who sit in front of systems and think they know all and type whatever they feel like. We need to ignore such people’s existence.
@scgooner
I don’t need or hope for you to say anything of the sort. You’ve already told me previously you actively hope for Arsenal to lose football matches. What you think about Mourinho doesn’t really amount to a hill of beans after that little gem.
As for the rest, as I said above: if you want to make a qualitative judgement about the Chelsea back line (which also includes three 19 year olds: Zouma, Ake and Christiansen) then that’s a different kettle of fish, but your original criticism, the one which lead you to label our manager as “incompetent” was quantitative – namely, that we had too few defensive players. We have the precise same number of defensive players as the runaway league leaders. It’s a daft point.
@SAG
Off the top of my head, I think scgooner has the net spend about right.
Those defensive players, in full (and excluding 19 year olds):
Kos Terry
Mertesacker Cahill
Debuchy Ivanovic
Gibbs Azpilicueta
Monreal Filipe Luis
Arteta Matic
Flamini Obi Mikel
Matic to Arteta is the glaring mismatch, and the area we really needed to address.
In purely numerical terms, there is no disparity at all, and certainly no incompetence.
N7, I made absolutely clear in my earlier post that Bellerin and Hayden were only added much later (after the usual one or two injuries every club gets) so it’s 6 not 8, in my view. You know I wrote that. You also seem to like harping on about a point I made oh 6 months ago that I would prefer to see Arsenal finish 2013/14 4th in the League and without an FA Cup win, rather than 5th in the League and with an FA Cup win. The thread, as I remember it (but I’d accept your recall is strangely good on past postings) was about which would be better for the club in terms of outcomes, Prem and FA Cup. I celebrated on the day but never once got carried away with scraping by first Wigan and then Hull. In fact, I felt queasy because I never felt AW would walk away after the win. It was mixed emotions because I care deeply about the club long-term. So don’t ever, ever come back with that “you want Arsenal to lose” shite, OK ? The number is relevant to me…8 (not 10, forget the 2 kids who he won’t play) for 5/6 slots and 17 for 4/5 is pretty damned unworkable with the players involved. Have you, by the way, noticed how many of those 17 are completely and utterly pis*ed off with life ? I rest my case. And regarding Chelsea, well maybe here you sort of have a point which, in fact, only highlights the incompetence. It is, as they say, all about quality not quantity. You can apologise to me about the wanting Arsenal to lose thing if you wish. I don’t care if u don’t.
@scgooner
I’m merely quoting your own words back to you. Are you hoping for us to win games these days then?
Re: the rest of it, you seem to be moving on from the stuff about player numbers, so I’ll take that as confirmation that your original point was without merit.
Two question marks –
1 – Tomas Rosicky. Why, or more to the point, why not ?
2 – Lucas Podolski. The arguments are old now but how exactly did he turn from a 100+ Germany caps international to sitting behind Yaya Sanogo in the pecking order.
If he was always unfit, slow loathe to help defend or whatever, how did he get through the scouting system and onto our books.
IMO, he has been played in a system that has never suited him and, therefore, judged to be no good. A huge pity.
N7, that’s fairly pathetic. Really. I care NOT ONE CRAP that Chelsea may indeed have the same number of defenders/DMs as us even if they are mainly excellent, strong, versatile, well-coached types. I care about our situation. You think the Arsenal squad is numerically balanced and you think there is absolutely nothing you can do if you get one or two injuries. It’s just jolly bad luck. I’m interpreting there somewhat but that’s what I hear. We live in a democracy, good luck with that view when you’re next down the pub discussing Arsenal with your mates. Thanks for the apology too by the way. Show me the quote. Although my view has hardened in fact. Winning the FA Cup and locking us into 3 years of inertia has been a disaster.
@scgooner
Some beautiful straw men you’re constructing there.
I’ve not said anything at all about the cause of our injuries, nor have I proclaimed the squad to be numerically balanced. I’ve merely pointed out that the numerical balance of our defence, which you cited as incompetent, matches that of the runaway league leaders.
Your point was demonstrably daft. No amount of huffing and puffing and righteous indignation will change that. I’m sure you’ve lots of criticisms of Wenger which have some sort of merit (for the record: I think the injury situation is so bad that it cannot possibly all just be down to luck). This wasn’t one of them.
Re: your desire for us to lose – I really don’t intend to dig back through months worth of blog posts to find your exact words.
Regardless, are you now saying that you DIDN’T come in here and proclaim your hope that we’d lose the FA Cup semi final last season?
Martin Keown knows what happened on Sunday.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29917344
@8ball
That’s a really good article, and the first photo is damning. Terrible, terrible shape, and the same mistake we’ve been seeing all season.
I’m not sure u can read stuff written today let alone 6 mths ago N7 ! I’ve “admitted” and confirmed today that yes I think I said I would have preferred Arsenal to lose to Wigan and Hull (since my comment was before the SF) AND also, in combination, come 4th in the CL, rather than come 5th in the Prem and win the FA Cup. It was toss-around conjecture, bar talk (since this is a bar…friendly in most cases) but it was a strong conviction insofar as after last January and the demolition that was Feb-March, I felt it was time for AW to stand aside and I never felt he would, unless we had another “Birmingham”…which we had a good go at due to awful defending in the first half hour. Overall, I felt (and still do) a humiliating FA Cup defeat at SF or Final stage would have left AW’s position as untenable but it would have been nice if the new man coming in still had CL qualification (or an August qualifier at least) so as to attract high calibre players during the summer. That’s my honest recall but if you want to do what u did then (at least I think it was u and maybe a couple of others…and it certainly stopped me posting for 6 mths) and twist and turn my words, Daily Mail style, into “OMG, you said you wanted Arsenal to lose” go right ahead. And really sorry for my daft points. Rest assured, I will not be poring over your contributions posted today, 6 mths ago, 3 years ago or whatever, like Sherlock Holmes, searching forensically for some gross, offensive inconsistency or contradiction. It was YOU who decided to bring up Chelsea and somehow that has been the key downfall in my points about Arsenal. Huh ? Don’t get it. Not going to try to either.
@scgooner
Not sure what you’re after from me here.
You said you wanted Arsenal to lose, in an Arsenal bar. I don’t think it was out of bounds for people to call you on that statement, nor do I think it’s out of bounds for me to remind you of it, particularly given the aggressive tone of your comments. I don’t think anyone has twisted what you said: it was exactly as advertised.
I don’t think I’ve said anything offensive to you here, other than to remind you of your own words, and to demonstrate that your complaint about the squad doesn’t make a great deal of sense if we apply a little logic.
I’ll leave it at that. There doesn’t appear to be a substantive point left at issue, so all we’re likely to do from here on in is swing handbags at each other while the rest of the bar roll their eyes.
Gonna be a long two weeks….
@N7 and @risk of veering into the ridiculous….Some said, at the time, they’d prefer an FA Cup win to CL qualification and 5th in the Prem (which would have involved losing some Prem games). Hope you told them how naughty they were too. Zzzzzzzzzz. We have CEO of the Year, now we have Fan of the Year too. Good man yourself.
Proof that Pochettino cannot control his own players. It has been certified by the FA. 😉
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29921851
ATG@147: fair enough, then we have differing definitions of half-decent. No problems with that, have a shot of vodka of your choice on my tab 🙂
And just for the record (I think I have said this but just to be clear) I wanted someone to at least replace Vermaelen in addition to getting Chambers in if we’re talking defenders.
As I was saying. More work on the training ground. Defend from the front. The actual effort must exceed the desire.
Playing well raises the confidence.
Lars
A choice of your favourite drink is also on the bar on your credit card though 😉
I also completely agree with you on getting someone else on top of Chambers but hey not much of point in going around in circles as I have mentioned above. That article by Martin Keown sums up what everyone has touched on post the game on Sunday in one way or another.
For now we need to regroup and come back stronger after the internationals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGXHyt38sj0
Welcome . I hope you are well. 🙂
I might be controversial but when Arsene Wenger leaves Arsenal I want it to be a very positive parting. His commitment and gifts to the club have been too great for him to be fired as if he were a Spurs manager. We are lucky to have employed one of the great figures in recent football history and he has taken us from a club likely to finish 7th or 8th in the League and not certain to qualify for the UEFA Cup , not certain to finish above Spurs and nowhere near the top revenue producers in world football to a club that qualified 17 times in a row for the CL beating Spurs every season in that time and generating enough to make us a financial superpower.
So whether Wenger should leave or not , if he goes I want it to be with a fanfare and to a happy retirement or a last job in Monaco or somewhere similar. I really cannot understand the bile and opprobium he gets from people who should bless the day he took over our club.
We all know he can be a Pain in the Arse but his faults are exacerbated because he has been with us so long. If he is to leave let’s do it in a classy way and with respect. We are Arsenal and that means something
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pm7t3mHsdBM
Do I detect a certain amount of ‘cantbearsedness’ in the bar ? 😉
Well said TTG.
I’m disapointed with the last week and I feel something has to change, however some of the bile been thrown around is just not on.
It’s all in vain anyway, as we are not those from the swampy, stinky end of the Sevensisters, Wenger won’t be sacked due to a blip, it’s not how we do things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2OivplOBq8
@TTG
That’s a great post. Well said.
Is that . cba in disguise?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3idHZGYE9Io
Yep, well said, ttg.
The problem is that we are at our worst since the Invincibles at exactly the tome when we were supposed to be in a position to be at our best.
And AW will never publicly criticise his players, so that what he does say in public makes it look as though he is in denial about what is wrong.
I know there are tensions at one or two levels within the club but I really hope they can be overcome and he can win one of the big two prizes before he calls it a day.
My thoughts @185, H2H ……………. ? 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRT30P-tKb0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMGvQ2v-ZRM
Aaah, missed that Trev.
Well spotted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBRQM0vErH8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pr0LT94QLw
Top post @ 183 TTG. Well said, mate.
Sadly we have intemperate low brows among the ranks of Arsenal ‘supporters’ who cannot recognise Arsene Wenger’s immense contribution to the club.
However it’s got to be recognised that almost all great managerial tenures have ended in tears. Hopefully Arsene will be granted a dignified exit.
cba where the …. have you been?
Hear hear Ttg.
It is a complete over reaction (as usual).
Don’t want him going to Monaco though – prefer if he’d stay here!
I don’t use iPads all that often but they are a typists version of a stammer……….so nitol
Shoots….
.
I hope we see you again old son. You are a key part of why this place ticks.
And nice one, N7. Great finish 🙂
Well said ttg
Thanks for your earlier comment, Trev. Praise indeed!
And with you with Poldi. A mystery wrapped in an enigma that one. I still vividly remember his role in the 5-1 demolition of WHU last year, one of the very few games in which he’s actually started for us. One cracking opening goal and at least two assists, and at no time did he look out of place, slow or unfit – the criticisms usually levelled at him. How he and TR7 can spend their lives bench-sitting while others can play the whole 90 minutes+ as if they were auditioning for the bench remains incomprehensible.
Öskar
One for . who always makes me smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpJ0cyXbMbI
Öskar
And one for everyone else, the great Allan Clarke (no, not the great Leeds CF) in full voice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJhxoJ11ogU
Öskar
Cheers to our “mystery” man of music….missing your muses and trust you are well. Also thanks to OtD for providing another trip down memory lane…must rummage through my old 45s and even some 78s!
Props to TTG….reminding us of the respect and admiration due to AW. Those who throw bile at him are not worthy.
Nytol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUF6iDMAeuU
Waterford is quite a long way from Donegal. In my experience at least.
I don’t know where the fuck Tipperary is though. 😉
We could use a few like Joe Hill at the moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqC0XGAk1is
TTG@183: Well said.
Trev@191: AW may not criticise his players in public, but it seems to be different in private. Francis Jeffers on AW: “He tells you how it is and he is one of the only managers I played for who tells you how it is.”
http://www.squawka.com/news/francis-jeffers-i-shouldnt-have-left-everton-for-arsenal/217256
Otd: A belated tip of the hat for your @111. I don’t know what to make of the Sqwaka stats either, except that they seem to show Monreal to be a better CB than LB — and I wouldn’t know what to make of that either.
Arsene should either change or go don’t you think? ‘ Holic what gives you any reason, on their present course, that AFC, following Sanchez and Ozil’s departure stage left to Manu or Chelsea next summer will not be by November 2015, another metastasised copy of Stoke or Newcastle? Proud of being mid table looking forward to qualifying in the Europa Cup . And AW, once again, looking forward to the January 2016 window this time for a new groundskeeper because, by George, this time he has finally nailed it. “Je suis un bougre idiot! Il n’a jamais été moi ! Il etait toujours le gazon ! Ne peut pas attendre pour la prochaine Août !”
Below is a letter posted on Goal.com UK. Not mine but a far more satisfying response to the situation than your
calm column ‘Holic. What would you disagree with?
Dear Arsene, I find myself writing this letter not out of anger but out of frustration. As a fan (not customer, fan) of the Arsenal I find it hard to get angry with the team’s performances these days because to be frank, nothing surprises me anymore. I have seen it all before. Arsenal are, to some extent, masters of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. So why am I writing this? As I have touched upon above, it is a letter borne out of frustration. Frustration that the club, run by you Mr Wenger is in a never ending cycle of mediocrity when things can be so much better given the resources at our disposal. If you love Arsenal as much as you say you do, please do the best for the club and accept you have taken it as far as you can, resign and allow another manager to take the club forward. You can enjoy your legacy of revolutionising English Football and enjoy the fact you had a hugely successful first 10 years at Arsenal. No doubt you will read this and think “what does he know? he hasn’t worked 2 minutes in football or won the FA cup” and you are quite right, I haven’t. That doesn’t make my opinion any less valid, nor does it prevent me from having one. I am a pragmatist, to me, to flourish is to adapt, to be questioned, to be challenged and in top level sport, to win. Since you have managed the club your style and philosophy hasn’t changed, hasn’t evolved but English Football has. Failure to adapt is costing us dear. Failure to address obvious weaknesses within the squad, the failure to bring in adequate or superior replacements for those players departing. Failure to address the lack of discipline in the team, not from a fouling perspective but from a tactical one, 3-2 up at home and we have 5 players in an advanced position against a team who by your own admission are excellent on the counter attack. It isn’t just this week’s capitulation against Anderlecht that prompts this letter it is a culmination of events throughout your tenure. The team do not learn lessons; the defence still make elementary mistakes. Blaming the players is the easy option but was the back four the same as last night when we conceded 4 against Newcastle at St James Park, 8 against Manchester United, 6 against Manchester City, 4 against Tottenham at home in 2008. No they weren’t, was the manager the same. Yes. That isn’t bad luck; it’s a trend, one you haven’t addressed over the years. There is no doubt you are stubborn, can that work to one’s advantage? Absolutely but it can also be detrimental if left unchecked, unfortunately it seems the latter is true. So you won’t resign, what is next? How do we change things? How can we ensure mistakes are not repeated? May I suggest the following? * If Steve Bould isn’t coaching the defence, let him, if he is then perhaps it’s time to delegate that away from him or bring in some ex- players who know a thing or two about defending, Messer’s Keown & Adams would be a good starting point. * Address the team’s obvious defensive weaknesses, accept the Wenger way may not be what’s best for Arsenal FC, not Arsene FC and purchase accordingly. There is a good reason the saying “you get what you pay for” exists and in most cases, rings true. There are some excellent defenders in the Premiership who would love to represent such a prestigious club like the Arsenal. Winston Reid was a good example. * Bring in a tactician who can be a pragmatist as an assistant manager, someone who can offer a different opinion, challenge you and can set up a team according to the opponent. That’s not to say attacking football to which we are known for is compromised, it’s a pragmatic approach to ensure a good solid defensive foundation is built enabling the attacking players to express themselves. * Bring in an external party to evaluate the training methods & playing surfaces in order to better understand why so many of the players suffer muscular injuries. Shad Forsythe is an excellent addition; let’s focus on prevention rather than cure / rehabilitation. * Play players in their natural position, this sounds simple and it is, a number 10 (Ozil) is played as a number 10, not as a winger players who aren’t performing are taken out of the limelight to regain form (Ramsey) and players who are in form are played regularly not because they are a favourite of the manager. (Sanogo over Joel Campbell / Lukas Podolski) Now that may not be the case, but looking from the outside in, that’s the impression we get. * Make substitutions based on the needs of the game. If a player isn’t performing, be a manager, break your loyalty to that player and take him off at half time rather than the 70th minute. Be pragmatic, again, using Anderlecht as an example, if we are 3-2 up, don’t bring on attacking players, get on the touch line, organise 2 banks of 4 and if you absolutely have to have an attacking player on, use Walcott to hit them on the break and / or run into the channels to hold the ball up and keep possession. * Have a plan and listen to counsel – Identify the teams weaknesses, identify replacements and start doing the ground work as much as you can (within the rules of course) before the transfer window opens. Pay the asking price, using the Arsenal brand to sell to the player, get the deal done, the player settled well in time for pre-season as Manchester City & Chelsea have done in the past to their benefit. As a manager it is your job to identify the players you and your coaching staff think we need, not to negotiate fee’s or argue on what you think a player is worth. That is for the Chief Executive and Finance Director to worry about. I have decided not to mention the issues at board level, I wanted this letter to focus on what can be changed on the field and training pitches. This is not a personal attack; it is to raise concerns, to point out flaws, offer constructive solutions. It may not always seem obvious but the fans criticise because they care. We like you Arsene, love Arsenal FC. Let’s either see a change of manager or a change in approach. Being challenged and admitting mistakes isn’t a weakness it’s a sign you are prepared to change, prepared to evolve and hopefully be as successful as you were in the first 10 years as manager of this great club.
Pierre @ 213: Staying in tune with the musical musings in vogue tonight, and in honor of the returning mystic …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAFbYTvXXyY
Or if you want something more raucous and yet wordless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyh4Bq0Xp4w
Ttg @183,
Well put!
Have been back drinking and engaging in “voyeurism” of the “debate” between SC and N7. Fascinating to see the passion at different ends of the spectrum and both of you have merits. I hope that you don’t come to blows as some supporters did at the Liberty stadium on Sunday over Arsene Wenger!
I actually find myself somewhat more in SCgooner’s camp exemplified by his posts @128, 134 and 139; all fairly pertinent points! However, I also agree somewhat with N7 regarding the quota of defensively-minded players we have; we do actually have enough cover to maintain a competitive challenge, if used properly, but something fundamental is intrinsically missing with the way we play!
The number of defensive players we have, or don’t have as some might put it, should not actually be the topic of discussion as it’s not exclusively why we find ourselves in the situation we are in at the moment on the pitch. Moreover, it’s been this particular way for the past 9 years. Simply put, “we are just not good enough defensively as a team when we don’t have possession of the ball!” That must be down to the coaching, or lack there of, and the questioning of Arsene Wenger over this issue is very justified.
It is now widely known that Arsene Wenger’s teams now have no innate or definitive defensive, team strategy, discipline or mindset, as they used to, and fans can’t now easily pin-point what the players are trying to do within matches in a defensive sense as a team. If anyone knows what the regular and innate strategy is then please tell me as I’m still searching after 9 years?!
Arsene’s teams since he lost the famous back 5+1, and then the back 5 of the Invincibles, are now relatively easy to play against when they don’t have the ball, or as soon as they lose it under closing-down pressure.
I genuinely believe that the players we have right now are actually good enough to challenge for the EPL and CL but the way they are encouraged, or not as is the case, to set up to defend and play without the ball, is the crux of the problem. The players appear not be coached by way of anything Pavlovian so as to respond in a coordinated manner to get the ball back as soon as they lose it; or they are not listening or having it drilled into them in training. This again is all down to the coaching, or lack there of.
One coaching constant has remained throughout this time of “Arsenal are easy to play against without the ball” and “Arsenal will always give you a chance”; and that constant is Arsene Wenger.
He is not a defensively-minded coach, and never has or will be, as we all know, but he seems to expect his players to “work things out alone” on match-days which is very unfair. Sadly for him and us, it just doesn’t happen enough with the players he now has or has had over the barren years. It’s telling that those that have recently come or had an inmate defensive strategy instilled prior (i.e. Alexis, Danny, TR7, OG) always try to instigate and be pro-active defensively whilst those who have been at the club for sometime under Arsene Wenger just watch and are only reactive.
When Wenger was blessed with the pre-2005 teams, he had players who were highly mature and intelligent enough, to work things out themselves during matches, however he now has: Gibbs, Wilshere, Ox-Chambo, Ramsey, Walcott, Jenkinson, Gnabry, Sanogo and Bellerin whom he somehow expects to step up in the same manner. It’s unfair and unrealistic unless someone teaches them how. Perhaps Alexis and Danny will now do that but it’s not meant to be their job.
Alexis Sanchez looks so good during matches not just because of his attacking play and goals but also because of his Barcelona-esque tireless and committed defensive work upfront which, frustratingly, isn’t complimented behind him by his new team-mates as it was at Barcelona! There are too many players in this squad who go through the motions defensively and don’t appear to be coached properly wrt the defensive side of the game. Regardless, this falls squarely at the hands of the “head coach”. If Arsene fixes that instilling a generic, team, defensive ethic that is indoctrinated
The number of defensive players we have, or don’t have, is not actually the reason we find ourselves in the situation we are in at the moment, and it has been like this for many years. We just are not good enough defensively as a TEAM! That has to be down to coaching, or lack there of and the questioning of Arsene Wenger over this issue is justified. It is now universally known that HIS TEAMS have no definitive defensive strategy or mindset, when need be, that can be pin-pointed.
Arsene’s teams since he lost the famous back 5+1 and then the back 5 of the Invincibles, are just now very easy to play against when they don’t have the ball or as soon as they lose it. I genuinely believe that the players we have right now are actually good enough to challenge for the EPL and CL but the way they are encouraged or set up to defend and play without the ball is the whole massive problem. They just are not coached anything that is Pavlovian as soon as they lose the ball and are expected to get it back. That again is all down to the coaching. One coaching constant has remained throughout this time of “Arsenal are easy to play against without the ball” and “Arsenal will always give you a chance” and that is Arsene Wenger. He is not a defensively-minded coach, and never has or will be, and he seems to expect his players to “work it out alone” on match-days! That’s just not going to happen with these players as many have not learnt a style anuwhere else. When Wenger was blessed with the pre-2005 teams, he has players who were mature, and intelligent enough, to work things out themselves, however he now has: Gibbs, Wilshere, Ox-Chambo, Ramsey and Walcott, Jenkinson, Zelam, Gnabry, Sanogo, Bellerin, Hayden whom he expects to step up but they won’t unless someone finally teaches them how. Alexis Sanchez looks so good not just because of his attacking play but mainly because of his tireless and committed defensive work upfront which isn’t complimented behind him as with Barcelona! There are too many players in this squad who are not coached properly at all the defensive side of the game and that squarely falls at the hands of the head coach. If Arsene can somehow fix this, instilling a generic team defensive ethic that regardless of injuries, rotation and thriftiness in the transfer market, the team will get results even with Monreal playing at Centre Back. The players must be coached to defend as one coordinated, proactive, intelligent and dynamic unit that can then build from that foundation their mercurial, natural, attacking play.
So in summary; coaching, coaching, coaching of an instinctively coordinated and intrinsically proactive defensive team strategy rather than the currently reactive one is critical. If Arsene can somehow achieve this with his deputy coaches, then he will win another major trophy and depart on a high as we all truly hope he can.
Lars @137,
Debuchy got injured when he badly twisted his ankle alone; there was no contact or any Cit$H player near him at that time.
DanC, Pierre, you both seem to be highly experienced and passionate Arsenal supporters, don’t you think some of the sweeping generalizations in these remarks are a bit revisionist?
We all agree that Arsene has made a few significant mistakes in judgment and planning — personnel as well as strategy wise — this season and as a result we have most likely put ourselves out of the PL tittle race (which, unlike many, I didn’t feel we are not ready for this time). But not sure with the picture of Arsene as a defensively clueless or without any discipline manager.
The Invincible defense was all his — except Keown who was happy to be more of a guide to the youngsters — and other than Sol who joined as an already established player, the rest of the backline were educated by Arsene and actually consisting of players converted into “unnatural” positions. Equally importantly the two great players sitting in front of them, one of them Arsene protege and another one brought in the club by him, were all Arsene’s contributions.
The 05-06 run to CL final was achieved with a makeshift defense similarly all of Arsene’s creation, and I believe without conceding a goal from the open play before final.
Last season our defense played superbly for 95% of the time. Protecting slenderest of leads with conviction and composure, often not dominating possession. We had fucked up badly in away matches against bigger opposition by trying to “show them up”, but mostly we had a stellar season defensively and no wonder Szczesny shared the Golden Glove with Czech.
I don’t think it is a question of ability from Arsene, it is simply (or not so simply) a question of priority. He prioritizes an ideal of insouciant fluidity and is willing to work towards that goal over the scope of a couple of seasons at the expense of the immediate result. He has always been like that, even in the Monaco days, prioritizing development (individual and collective) over immediacy.
I would love us to play more pragmatically this season and continue from last season’s ethos. However if that doesn’t happen I think I will seek reasons in Arsene’s more purist and long-term view of his projects and not in his incompetence or carelessness. It has only been a few months we ended a season with 79 points and an FA cup and started this season with Community shield. The man couldn’t have gone potty within such a short time now, can he?
Sonny Stitt. Good choice Dr F. I remember seeing him at Ronnie Scotts c1960. Actually I don’t remember much about it except that I was there, as I was on numerous occasions back when Ronnie was alive and a night in his club was barely more expensive than propping up the bar in my local. The last time I was there, my last visit to London in 2011, it cost more than a West End show with supper after at the Savoy.
Öskar
Sorry, Pierre, I started reading the letter in your #213 but found so much to disagree with I gave up (memo holics: some effin’ paragraphing wouldn’t go astray).
Talk of a “never ending cycle of mediocrity” is nonsense. If nothing else 17 straight years of CL qualification puts the lie to that. Only Real Madrid can match that currently. It’s a measure of success the vast majority of clubs can only dream about. No, we haven’t won it (yet) but if winning the CL is your measure of success then 99 per cent of clubs in Europe are mediocre.
And if not winning the Premiership is your measure then 80 per cent of clubs in our league are by your definition mediocre because that’s how many (or more) have finished behind us every year since Wenger arrived.
Like you I believe we could be playing better than we are currently, but unlike you I don’t expect that to automatically happen with a change of management. Rather I fear that a change of management NOW would more likely create an atmosphere where the club is seen as at the end of an era, and less attractive to the kind of players we’d both like to see at the Ems.
I believe we have to weather this storm, more or less with the personnel we have, and show what we’re really capable of. THEN, perhaps, will be the time for AW to call it a day. Going out a ‘loser’ (in your view) is NOT how we want his tenure to end. We owe him far more than that.
Öskar
Oskar/DrF,
Media outlets and arsenal fans alike are questioning Arsene Wenger directly in exactly the same way our fellow colleagues and fans are on this forum such as Dapper/ Pierre and SC.
I think the question now is more about why such a small minority still support an arsenal club with Arsene at the helm?
When will the old debt to a once successful coach end. Do we him a debt for ever and a day for changes to the club that are now 10 years + old.
The important point being those still supporting Arsene Wenger as the head honcho at arsenal are now a small minority, no longer the large majority.
Is it so hard to understand that fans like the majority of us would like to see a winning mentality and wining performances in this great club.
Why is that so abhorrent to those of you still supporting Arsene at arsenal as head of everything.
It is clear it is no longer a perfect fit and te team is going backwards at an alarming rate to midtable as the footballing/ coaching world has moved on beyond him
@DanC
The great frustration as far as I’m concerned (note to zico: not “for me”), is that Wenger very much CAN coach defensively, which makes the current shambles even more annoying.
Two seasons ago we finished the campaign with the second best defensive record in the league, better even than the champions.
If you’ll recall, some time circa Feb 2013 we went to WHL, played an absurdly high line and got beat. Thereafter, Arsene adjusted the balance of the team, sat us deeper, played to Per’s strengths and protected the back line properly. For a period, it took the edge off our attack, but we still won a string of games, mainly 1-0, and nicked 4th.
We opened last season with the same team balance and defensive solidity, but the form of Ozil, Ramsey and Giroud transformed the attack. For several glorious months we had the best team balance since 2007-2008, we were tough to score against and we were legitimate title contenders. Then, for whatever reason, things started to backslide. Perhaps we gravitated back towards a more attacking shape, perhaps in the bigger away games teams realised they could get into Arteta and expose us. Either way, we shipped goals.
Attacks win you games, but defences win you titles. Our next title winning team will need to be built from the back forward. I had hoped we would adjust in the summer, add a DM and return in the direction of our post-WHL solidity. Instead, we pushed another midfielder forward, played 4141 and tried to accommodate all our number 10s. It’s been a huge error, and the team balance has yet to recover.
But that’s not to say it can’t. Wenger will always prioritise attack, because he has a positive footballing philosophy, and – frankly – thank fuck for that. But he can also coach defensively when he needs to: he has built and overseen some great back lines. The Invincibles, of course, but also his earlier teams: he may not have bought all the defenders, but that’s a fairly simplistic yardstick by which to judge his coaching: with apologies for coming back to Chelsea again, Mourinho didn’t buy a single one of his current first choice back 4. He’s still coaching them and he still gets the credit for their solidity.
Fingers crossed that Arsene works it all out in the weeks ahead. Personally, I hope we go back to basics – tell the two midfielders to sit in, play our centre backs and centre back and ask the full backs to think carefully before getting ahead of the ball. Sanchez will sort the goals, and there’s nothing wrong with winning 1-0.
@Aussie
Do you have any proper evidence whatsoever for those still supporting the manager being a “small minority”?
I seem to recall 250,000 of that small minority filling the streets back in May to support an Arsenal with Arsene at the helm.
A better question is why you feel the need to position yours as the majority opinion without anything to back it up beyond, presumably, “I hear a lot of moaning on blogs and twitter”.
N7- Itis no longer May and the 250,000 youbrefer too were celebrating Arsenal FC and our first victory in 10 years of any significance.
Now in November, some of those same loyal and long serving fans are physically fighting each other in the stands at away matches.
I understand that you are completely devoted to Arsene no matter how far we fall as you are on record on this forum as defending any suggestion by any other arsenal supporters of Arsenes mistakes and regular failures over the last 10 seasons.
Those failures are there for all to see week in week out excepy for those that do not wish to see them.
Why do you always defend Arsene in front of Arsenal FC.
@Aussie
You know what, on second thoughts, I’m not going to bother. Have a good day.
Like I have said yesterday there is no point arguing now if Wenger should stay or should he go, he is still in charge and he needs to fix this mess!
Amen
Fair enough N7. Hope you Have a good day as well.
Are those arsenal fans you refer to as ” moaning on blogs and twitter ” , are they not worthy and loyal and devoted Arsenal fans as well.
Or are they for some reason less deserving of your respect and patience simply because they would like to see a change at our once great club which is called Arsenal FC, not Arsene Wenger FC.
Why do those ” moaning” suporters not deserve the same respect as arsenal fans who prefer wenger at the helm.
N7: in fairness, “It’s been a huge error” is a bit ambiguous…
@Aussie
I think it all depends, doesn’t it?
For those fans who put forward their complaints in a considered and generally polite manner, such as DanC above, I’m happy to show respect and politely disagree on some points while agreeing with others.
For those fans who attempt to engineer clumsy provocation, as per your @219, or who otherwise act like complete tits…. well, I can only call a spade a spade. Or alternatively disengage, which I’m going to do now.
Feel free to keep ranting on about how I will defend the evil Wenger no matter what, how the time of the righteous Arsenal fan is nearly upon us or whatever other bollocks you’re on about today.
Peace and love.
COYG
N7 I have always read your posts think your a very loyal, very knowledgable fan,at this moment I commend your spirt as the goonerholic fireman,fair dues to you.there comes a point were I can’t defend the gaffer anymore certainly for me iv backed arsene to the hilt thru good and bad,I too would love to see him go out with his head held high as stated by ttg sadly I don’t think that will happen fourth place was his saving grace the guts of a decade that and the whole stadium finance issue.it bought him leeway with the fans that has all but dried up.
New para for zico 🙂
What hurts me more than anything is that the great man wrote the bloody blueprint on how to win the prem,good keeper two solid no nonsense ch,two athletic full backs who’s first duty was to defend,one sitting/baller(petit. class)another box to box beast no name needed,two wingers who graft and score,one Dennis and a lad who can finish all the HARD work done by the rest.i hate that excuse for a man at the chavs but he stole the blueprint that sham.sorry for the rant holics,guns outwards.ps zico will you have any interest in the game on Friday?
Dr F @216,
I don’t think the remarks are revisionist, nor revolutionary, but rather pragmatic. Lack of a strong and resilient defensive organisation and a team defensive strategy when we don’t have the ball are the basis of our failings year on year.
I agree with N7’s view regarding Arsene’s prior abilities to develop a defensive strategy however it’s never been a culture or mantra that he ingrained into his players. The earlier, mature and experienced players took it onto themselves and brought on the younger. Once the older more defensively aware pros left, a huge gap remained that was never filled; it should have been smothered completely by Arsene himself or by another with genuine authority to coach and indoctrinate the principals as Alex Ferguson did with his various number twos and coaches.
With Arsene’s earlier and successful sides, he was blessed with good players who took pride in defending well and knew how important it was to be dangerous and work equally as hard without the ball as they did with it, and as a team. They were mature and responsible professionals who knew fully the importance of that part of the game. They did need to be reminded week after week or spoon-fed. Those players with their acumen were the ones that made those teams great. Arsene role was facilitation to allow them to express themselves. I doubt that Arsene had to work as hard tactically on the training ground with those lads as they were intrinsically intelligent and leaders in their own right and prided their team ethic to keep clean sheets. It is true that we have had a better defensive solidity since the experience of Per Mertesaker came to the club but his coming has not developed a defensive culture within the team that can be clearly pinpointed or relied upon 100% whenever needed, and that’s what someone like Mertesaker needs to not be exposed of his own deficiencies. There are too many players in the current squad and first team, and this has been endemic for the past 9 years, that switch off from their defensive responsibilities and are unable to curtail their attacking without fear of subsequent penalty or punishment. That is something that must be dealt with by the head coach and man-manager when it happens so that there are no repeats. Sadly, I don’t see that ever happening but instead, the culprit continues to know that he will be playing week upon week without seemingly developing definitive insight on his own. Despise him as I did, Alex Ferguson would never have allowed that of his young wards as we used to see during many a season!
Congratulations to the Holic for creating a forum where debate can be heated but ultimately pretty damned civilised. Moderatorship in this environment must be no easy thing. Some great reads above on both “sides”. I’d love to share the optimism in some quarters here that this group of players can suddenly start defending properly on a consistent basis. I’ve never thought that Wenger was anything but a fascinating, intelligent and learned man. It’s just his experimental and stubborn streaks have simply got the better of him and the club provides zero checks and balances. Sanogo and Monreal CB/Chambers RB are the latest blatant examples. He was pragmatic and flexible in his first ten years. He wasn’t nearly so one-paced strategically. How else could we possibly have won the 2005 FA Cup Final by parking the bus (an experience, in retrospect, he maybe had mixed feelings about). We are where we are. The team can’t/won’t defend properly these days. We can spend years discussing if it’s more can’t than won’t. It’s a Catch 22 that pushes Wenger more towards an attacking predisposition. Like us, however, Wenger has seen the collapses, he’s had the chance to address it but he and the club have failed to do so. He’s still looking for the Holy Grail like a Barcelona at their height or the Netherlands and their total footbal in the 70s. He wants 100+ goals every season in the Prem, to be honest. But there’s no fall-back with this squad. Legs have gone, even guys already in their mid-20s can’t relearn and re-tool their games and running through it all is inadequate physical stature. An interesting question now is, does it get fixed if we do in fact sign a really good effective DM and a great back-up CB (could be any of best, second, third or 4th best CB N7 !!) ??? Well I would hope so but I worry that when we’ve changed tack fundamentally recently and signed stars like Ozil and Sanchez well, it’s not exactly seamless is it in terms of results and harmony ? Ozil cant settle yet and Sanchez has set us alight but Wenger has come out with very odd comments about him already like he can’t pass (earlier in the season….when he was dropped for Spurs remember) and even against Swansea in a post-match interview he nonsensically saw fit to announce to all that Sanchez hadn’t had his best game. Why ? Not comfortable with the mega-stars ?? His goal of assembling a team cheaply and organically up in smoke now after the spending ? Different issue but look it’s all part of one big stale malaise. Phew, close the fridge door…
@Garsuns
Fair play to all of that mate.
People are entitled to make up their own minds about Le Boss, and I’m sure each and every one of us has had at least a moment these last few years where we’ve wondered if it might be time.
It’s not about which side of “the line” you’re on, it’s just about showing a modicum of respect and avoiding the hysterical, foam-mouthed finger pointing to which some are increasingly prone. It’s not a binary choice between “he’s the worst man in the world/incompetent/negligent/senile” and “he’s the greatest and never makes mistakes”, no matter how hard some try to boil it down thusly.
Have a drink on me.
Garsguns @228,
Exactly and that’s why it’s been so sad to witness…
N7- which points of dapper dans comments did you agree with ?
I dont remember a single point, only references to past glories and past teams and past mistakes and how you hope wenger will fix his current shambles/mistakes.
Who do you believe is responsible for the current shambles, the arsenal fans who are ” moaning on twitter and blogs” or ” the media” or dapper dan or SC or pierre or carsguns or MOTD or le grove, steve bould, shad forsythe, Ivan gazidis, arseblog, or any of the other ” non believers”.
I will gove you a hint, it is none of the above..
Cheers n7
I can never quiet grasp the mentality of some who do the whole foam at the mouth finger pointing bull,suppose that’s why I stay away from twitter acc to what I read it’s full of them.strange as it might sound I liking arsene to a wife who gave you four beautiful kids but I just doesn’t work no more,that doesn’t mean I go down the local and slaughter her for this that and the other no I respect her for giving me such joy and sleepless nights 🙂
SC @230 & N7 @231,
Have a drink each on my tab. The compulsory cravat and smoking jacket are a must of course. Salut!
Aussie @233 & Garsguns @234,
Partake in a tipple on my tab too! Mullets are of course optional this Autumn season! There’s been lots of Cockney Rebelling the past 24 hours so lets smile abit now as OtD’s doing @205. Victoria Concordia Crescit.
Don’t mind if I do DDC ! Sláinte. Bit bald for the mullet but I’ll have a go at the dapper !
Cheers Dan
hopefully all Arsenal fans can continue to share a drink togeather for our great club as we are.
“Get Wenger out. Then bring Guardiola in. QED”
This is a headline on newsnow from the latest piffle by Pyles Malmer.
I was wondering what our particle physicists would make of such mathematical “quod erat demonstrandum”. Maybe Pyles is going to night classes.
Anyway, only 10 more sleeps to Manu and to finally seeing Alexis in the flesh. If you see me clipping another Arsenal fan in the stadium it’ll be because he’s in my line of sight..!
Can’t wait.! For me, this is my X-mas!
Great discussion kept in a very civilised way! Well done Holics!
Aussie@238, I’ll drink to that.
A cross-eyed good morning from another mourner of the paragraph. 😉
Some good points made above but sometimes spoilt by over exaggeration. I do dislike that – if I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a billion times !
On balance I agree most with N7 @220.
Although AW did inherit the famous back five, he coached them to play an entirely different way. Who would have imagined Tony Adams running onto a Steve Bould through ball to smash one past the keeper ? But they still retained their defensive solidity.
Maybe that was too ingrained in them to lose at that stage, but it did work.
The mystery I think, is why, after coaching Eboue-Toure-Senderos-Flamini to a Champions League defensive record, Martin Keown was dispensed with after the 2006 Final.
The reason, I have heard Martin himself say in interview, was that he wanted a permanent position as defensive coach but Arsene wouldn’t give him one. (or a position as defensive coach ! )
He wanted the position formalised because some of the players would not take proper notice of him as a “casual” employee.
I don’t know who was responsible for the defensive coaching – subtly different to “coaching the defence” – post the WHL debacle – but it certainly worked.
Personnel changes, injuries, changes in formation and egos, I believe, have all hurt us this season.
How do you fix all that lot at once ?
It might be time for the Magic Hat, Arsene.
@ Trev
That’s a very good point re: Keown. Bizarre decision, on the face of it, not to retain him after the CL final.
I also think that, for all that it’s very satisfying to watch your team play great football going forward, it shouldn’t be overlooked that there can be an equal amount of joy to be had from a mean as fuck back line who hate shipping goals and make life double tough for opponents.
Thanks dapper I’ll take the beer and the mullet 🙂
My only contribution to all the negative Arsene stuff is this:
1. He’s the only class act you see in football these days amidst the pundits and managers who can’t even speak english let alone the ex-players with long histories of substance abuse who come on TV to deride his management abilities in such a crass and tabloid manner. The fact that these morons are even given air time tells you where the state of football is in the world.
2. Should we really as fans desert a man who has persistently refused to go to some of the top clubs in world football, clubs who were far better equipped with finances and players, clubs were he could easily have won many many trophies to progress his own career and reputation? Instead he decided to stay and build this club. We are now one of the biggest clubs in world football and its all down to Wenger.
3. I can never bring myself to turn my back on a man who has brought some of the most wonderful football experiences in my lifetime. The players he brought in. The teams he built.
So he gets my vote every single time. Even when there are problems where he deserves harsh criticism. He still get my support. Any idiot can put 11 men across a goal line and play defensively. We stand for something far more creative, far more exciting and ultimately something far more important that runs to the very kernel of what this club is all about: We have a history of playing wonderful football. The way we played 17 years ago is the same way we strive to play now.
The penny will only ever drop when he’s gone. Only then will we realise how special Wenger is.
http://www.espnfc.co.uk/arsenal/story/2143133/arsene-wengers-tinkering-affecting-arsenals-season-tomas-rosicky?
Joe@245, I agree with most of your points except the “he could have left to a bigger club part”. For one he is the highest paid manager in all of Europe if am not mistaken and has more leeway even if things are not going good( presently) because of all the great stuff he has done for the club. Also if he had left for any of those clubs I Doubt he will have as much time, because a team like Real Madrid would let you go even if you win a Trophy or two. And same goes with Bayern and most top clubs in Europe. And Le bleu knows that too, like most fans here I respect him for all he has done. I don’t know if he gets my vote every time though.
Holic,
With 10 days still to go during the interlull, would you be interested in a possible guest post discussing something other than Wenger In / Out and shaking it all about?
If so, I have something for your consideration. How can I best get it to you – or not?
Having a pop at Merson for substance abuse and the way he talks is childish joe,he served the club well as a player and as a fan he cares what direction were heading,do you not agree that it was tactically clueless v anderlect? I do and so was Swansea.
As for putting 11 men behind the ball is never the answer but shutting up shop at the right time is a managers gig,not sitting on your arse giving out to bould get up give orders to get cover for our right back.when I look at the boss sitting there getting done time and time again it’s a big worry.
As for playing the same brand of ball for 17 years there in lies the problem football changes from season to season teams cotton on how to play against you and unfortunately too many managers have his number.
SAG: Real Madrid have tried to get Wenger several times over the past ten or so years. PSG reportedly offered him huge money to take over before they appointed Laurent Blanc.
And that “highest paid manager” stuff has been refuted by a number of sources so I wouldn’t put too much trust in that being true.
And Joe, great post there @245!
🙂 typical, call in the rest of the troops god forbid someone has a different point of view.
Noosa, email it to goonerholic(at)virginmedia(dot)com
Thank you.
I have to say the most valid single point I’ve seen in all this recent discussion belongs to Aussie @ 219 . “When will the old debt to a once successful coach end. Do we owe him a debt for ever and a day for changes to the club that are now 10 years + old.”
Lars@250, and would he still be their coach for let’s say 5 years with out a trophy. I highly doubt, he is very comfortable at Arsenal because he knows his job is safe, because of the past. They might have offered him the job, but he knows what to expect if things don’t go right immediately he gets there.
He loves Arsenal, am not denying that. But let’s not be naive to think that’s the only reason he has continued to stay with the club. He has a lot of goodwill with the club for obvious reasons. And that’s something he knows he won’t get with any other club.
The Wenger debate will continue all season I’m sure regardless of week by week results. What’s clear is that results and achievements at the season’s end, regardless of what goodwill capital Arsene has built up over the 17 years, will have Arsene Wenger himself determine the future of Arsene Wenger. The highest fan prices in Europe can’t continue for ever without some accountability on the pitch no matter who you are, and he better than anyone knows that. 128 years ago the club was formed without Arsene Wenger or any of us and 128 years from now Arsene Wenger won’t be there nor will any of us. There will be memories for our grand fore-ancestors to revisit and talk about and we hope that those memories are again as positive at the end of Arsene’s tenure as they were at the start. Up the Arse!
I guess those who did not get called up to International duty, have a chance to get some extra defensive training, the ‘Arsenal way’ this week.
Nacho and Per should be on that list, I would imagine.
Same with Flamini. I may pop over to offer some encouragement.
@257 Dapper DanC
Can’t really argue with that, there comes a time when everything ends if there are signs that something is not working there will be questions raised with the reasons you have mentioned.
Oskar : I am a huge Sonny Stitt fan. One of my favorite is his sessions with Dizzy and Sonny Rollins, as well his works with Oscar Peterson trio. Great tone and nimble mind, the somewhat accidental resemblance to Bird’s playing probably earned him unfair criticism of being a little derivative.
And I am bloody jealous of your endless stories of listening to all these giants live. 🙂 Though I managed to catch a few great live performances in my short life — couple of great Cedar Walton performances in Vanguard and Dizzy’s in NYC, the inimitable Ron Carter here in Boston, Terrence Blanchard in Blue Note etc. — I would exchange them for a single live Dizzy-Stitt-Getz/Rollins fracas.
Aussie @219: I was surprised that my somewhat simple remarks about the possibility that it is not incompetence or negligence but a different priority and a non-pragmatic “philosophical” orientation to football may better explain why we have been so poor defensively this season would invite such an aggressive response from you.
I am not in any clique, or cabal, or even interested in knowing how many fans said what in which social media. My apathy to opinions of the collective herd is not a disrespect to individual’s autonomy to hold their own ideas and express them however they see fit. Far from it.
I am an Arsenal supporter, and a fan. And I think we have a fantastic manager who, like everyone else, also makes many mistakes and not necessarily always learns from them. He has made a few key mistakes this season — and I have been as vocal about those as any other fan — but given the obviousness of those I think it is only natural to think they are more a result of plans not working well rather than just incompetence/negligence.
DanC @229: If I may disagree a little bit, “they were mature and responsible professionals who knew fully the importance of that part of the game” does understate Arsene’s role in their evolution to become mature and responsible. Kolo or Lauren just didn’t become those players overnight playing out of their normal position coming from their humble football backgrounds.
Also, regarding “it is true that we have had a better defensive solidity since the experience of Per Mertesaker came to the club” overlooks the role of one Laurent Koscielny, PL’s second best defender after Kompany and a huge part of our defensive solidity last season. He came to Arsenal only after a season with Ligue 1 newcomers Lorient, and his quite fantastic growth must owe something to Arsene’s tutelage, no?
I apologize if I appear to be bogged down in very specific examples. My intention is not to be a contrarian for its own sake, but just highlighting that football management doesn’t necessarily render itself well to short-term or overly generalized analysis and I think it is only after this season ends we can judge whether we made progress compared to the last season. Last season was definitely a progress compared to the season before, so if that trend continues we cannot claim to be regressing …
Aussie/scgooner/DanC et al. : I have started to follow Arsenal only in the early 2000’s, so was curious to see how Arsene’s Arsenal had fared compared to its immediate history. This is what I find:
League positions in 17 years prior to Arsene’s arrival, chronologically: 4, 3, 4, 10, 6, 7, 7, 4, 6, 1, 4, 1, 4, 10, 4, 12, 5 . 1 FA Cup, 2 League Cups, 1 Cup Winners’ Cup.
And 17 years after Arsene joined: 3, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 4, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 4. 5 FA Cups ( a CL Final and an UEFA Cup Final, first “serious” European finals in Arsenal’s history).
Even if you exclude all the other volatile aspects of stadium building, big money clubs etc. etc. that record still shows a remarkable long-term trend of progress. Not just an evolutionary upward movement but actually a significant leap into a different category of consistency altogether. Arsenal as a football club had never had this good after the halcyon days of Herbert Chapman.
So what is the next step for the club? A dominance a la Barca or RM or ManU or Bayern in recent history (or Juve, Liverpool, ‘Gladbach or Ajax in historical terms)?
I think this is where it gets tricky in terms of making the decision for the club hierarchy. Do you stay with the consistency hoping that he would be able to bring out his magic touch once more , especially after last season’s tangible progress and the needle on the financial front moving forward, and win one or both of the big twos at which point of time the new manager would come in with his task well-defined and a happy fan base and squad? Or would you be more ruthless and willing to risk the loss of consistency against the possibility of the next leap forward?
I just think it is a relatively complex decision with too many far-reaching consequences.
Whether in football or business or politics, very few clubs/companies/countries make a smooth and successful transition from a long-serving, dominant and characteristic leader to their successor. Whenever AW goes, and by whatever degree of his own volition, we should brace ourselves for some choppy times.
Garsguns @ 228
Only to the extent that I am hoping Keane and O’Neill have a massive fall out with each other on the touchline and start trading blows. 2 thundercunts that deserve each other.
International football? Meh. 😎
Excellent research Faustus and great evidence-based conclusion. Publish. :0)
Dear Dr. Faustus Quite happy to leave AW swinging in the wind for a while to discuss modern jazz. My weekend routine used to be Highbury in the afternoon,when Gunners at home, then Ronnie Scott’s Saturday night followed by Johnny Dankworth Sunday night at the LDI. Concerts with Basie, Ella, MJQ. Great times. Moved to NJ worked in Manhattan spending many Friday nights at Birdland before heading home from the Port Authority close by. Now in Florida retired.
Back to AFC. Just wish AW would invite some fans – not Piers Morgan – to a pub and open up to personally explain his philosophy and answer all their questions. That way we could all — or most of us – get on side once again with a greater understanding of his vision and confidence with his custodianship of OUR club. However, that will never happen because the press would jump on every word he said distort it to play to their readership with lurid headlines and mocking commentary. So instead of staying on board we must jog alongside blogging along in the dark feeding our own prejudices and spilling our frustration into print.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An2a1_Do_fc
esso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F1IXgGzD80
Merson is a thick as pig shit cunt. Who used to be (and probably still is) a pisshead and shovel peas and barley up his hooter. When he was n’t gambling.
The idea that Wenger begged him to stay, having just signed Marc Overmars is fucking laughable.
He won a few pots with us thanks to Stroller. But a club legend, who’s entitled to spout his phish now because of that ‘fact’? Fuck off!
Fucking born and bred Chelsea cunt. Stands out a mile.
And whoever the dot is (and I have my suspicions) has got nish to do with me.
In the interest of maintaining the highest standard of transparency let me for once and for all that I do not deny having an obscene nickname for Cristiano Ronaldo.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30017737
Anybody want to take a guess what his nickname for Messi is? 😉
esso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhhb3I6gYAk
Garsguns,
Merson is a man who frittered away his entire earnings on gambling, cocaine and drink. And now he is a mere puppet on Sky to provide tabloid insights to the mentally challenged. Fair enough if you consider this a success story. I don’t. I think it’s rather sad really. Furthermore, if he really had any regard for the club, he wouldn’t be fuelling the hype that is constantly being generated whenever we deliver a poor performance or when something goes awry. But perhaps, just perhaps he’s been paid to do that and to find sensationalised scandal wherever he can. Did that occur to you? Of course it was a terrible capitulation. But we’re a point away from qualifying for the group stages for the 17th time so there is a balanced perspective. Just ask Liverpool.
As for Swansea, I thought we were far more cohesive. A culmination of some top class goals, very bad weather and a superb performance from Montero got the better of us. We’ve a lot of injuries and we’re playing very poorly. So you take it on the chin and move on rather than have a mental breakdown about it all.
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people on tabloid TV & newspapers, ex players, pundits, bloggers, fans….butchers, bakers, …..who always seem to think that they know more than a man who has 2 league titles, 5 FA cups, 17 years qualifying for CL, a new stadium and a highly talented squad (who just happen to be playing like pigs). And that’s just his football credentials. Then there’s the fact that he can speak English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and some Japanese too. Maybe, just maybe he’s far better placed than those who seem to give him such abuse.
As far as I’m concerned if you’ve got nothing all else to get so upset about in your life – then you’re a very lucky person!
Dr F @262 & 263,
No one can argue that Arsene has made players better under his stewardship in the past but can he still do it with the same fine-tuned propensity now, that’s under question?! Attacking wise? Possibly. Defensively? I’m not so sure anymore.
Regarding the Koscielny debate, I really feel that until Mertesaker came, Koscielny still made glaring and reckless errors more than today; you realise that he’s given away more penalties than any other Central defender in the EPL over the past 3 years. He was certainly a good defender before but the leadership of Mertesaker next to him now has made him an excellent player.
On-field leadership has always been clear to see in the Arsenal sides of the past and Arsene benefitted greatly from it both on and off the pitch during matches and in training sessions. That just doesn’t seem to exist anymore now and he’s had to bring in players such as Arteta and Mertesaker (who were not the top leaders at their previous clubs) to reignite that. Arsene is just too free-spirited with his players when a dogmatic and directorial approach would he better suited. To much freedom without definitive guidance can result in complacency and over-confidence in the negative.
Success in all professional matters in life involves two things when you are a young talented man; motivation from others and, more importantly, self-motivation as you become seasoned. Many of these players in our squad lack the latter 100% and do still constantly need the former to come primarily from their mentor rather than a leader in the pitch who is likely to be more agricultural in his motivational mantra.
Excellent research @263 by the way.
No worries joe.im sure the great man knows more than most I just hope he can get back to his best and get this v talented squad playing at full tilt again.
As for merson I know he’s a bit of a brain donor but I used to love watching him play regardless what he put up his snout.beer of your choice on the bar from lars 😉 zico that’s a row i would pay to watch. 🙂
Hi DR F @ 63. I’m named in your kinda interesting post so shall therefore respond. As an older fan, not happy at all with you belittling two fantastic European wins in 1970 and 1994. You strongly imply losing to Galatasary in the 2000 UEFA Cup final was a far greater achievement, despite a bottled, disinterested performance on the night. How odd, but I’ll put it down to your youth rather than the fact that AW was in charge at the time. That was my main point in replying but I’ll add the bleedin’ obvious. Your stats clearly show a disimprovement, 9 years of mostly 4th, always outside the top 2 and 9 years between two wins in an FA Cup that has become as meaningless now as the old League Cup used to be. Before you shout “Oil money and new stadiums, your Honour” you can’t have it both ways. As in, we had an excuse for a few years but now if we’ve had a great balance sheet for the last 3 years and we now have the finest stadium in the land, then top 4 doesn’t cut it anymore, otherwise why build the bloody thing in the first place. Anyway, top 4 looks so hard now as we can now add 6 or 7 mid-table teams to the top 4 or 5 who have sussed out, figured out, psyched out, outmuscled and pretty much beaten or at least matched us before the ref even blows for kick off. In summary, in the words of Aussie ; “How long, debt, etc,etc”?? How many years DR F ? End of both post and paragraph. COYG.
Ok the Fairs Cup was before the last 34 yrs. doh! Still……
No, u do belittle the Fairs Cup in 1970 , quite subtly in terms of our amazing history, so in fact I withdraw my correction !
Joe @276,
I’ve got 5 University degrees and speak & write 5 languages fluently but I don’t expect to rest on my laurels in my job with even these credentials! Therefore if I don’t why should Arsene be allowed to too? I think I’ve earned some Chillax time too don’t you think?
Let’s see if we can steer the conversation in another direction. >>>>>>
Over 600 league games not to be sniffed at
Scgooner @ 279: There was no intentional belittlement. But I realize that the way I had phrased that statistics can be easily misread and the fault is mine. As an outsider looking into European football, it is a general consensus that Arsenal became an European presence in recent time only. I realize that a lot of that is due to the structural changes of European competition and the increases financial incentives, but still it is a remarkable consistency especially in comparison to clubs of similar stature.
If you read my post @263 without any preconceived notion about what it is supposed to say, you will see it doesn’t present any “religious” view on the topic of Arsene’s continuity. It shows a statistical pattern of unprecedented consistency under his stewardship which makes the decision about WHEN to replace him (because that really is the decision, he is not immortal and would retire sooner or later) all the more difficult.
If I have understood a little about this great football club — as a fan of only a decade or more and again, as an outsider — whatever decision the club takes it would be taken not as a knee-jerk reaction, not simply to appease the whimsy of fans, but keeping in mind the long-term strategy and would be executed with a modicum of grace and dignity unlike most football clubs in the world.
Isn’t that, in itself, something to be proud about?
Pierre @ 267: Birdland, nice! These old venues have so much character, even though Blue Note and Vanguard have lost much at least according to the old-timers. However I also like Dizzy’s club at Lincoln Center…
I think we all share the frustrations of Arsenal not quite achieving in terms of footballing honors what we seem to be almost on the verge of. And I think most here, including myself, have expressed those disappointments well. But at the end of the day, it is football. Despite my immediate disappointments after shitty performances I try to find enjoyment and pleasure from the next one, not a constant source of gnawing dissatisfaction and anger.
It must still be warm in Florida, and humid…so a bottle of your favorite Sancerre on me.
DanC @ 277: Not much I disagree with. I think the lack of maturity beyond a certain degree of many of the youngsters in recent years have been alarming. I think Ox will buck that trend. I think he has all the ingredients as well as the kind of intelligence that we had come to expect from Arsene’s first round of super-players
This is why I like players like Giroud a lot, who constantly try to make as much of their relatively limited natural abilities and in the process steadily improves and always contributes to the overall game.
About Kos, without belittling Per’s calming influence on our defense I think he benefits more from Kos’s presence than vice versa. But they do complement each other so very well. I think once Kos and Debuchy return our defense would look much better but as long as the DM issue is not resolved — which I think is our weakest aspect — we would remain vulnerable to the fast counterattack by superior teams.
NBN @ 264: Very succinctly put.