Guest Post – Cheap Seats And Tales Of Arsene Wenger
Dec 18th, 2014 by 'holic
Once again our very own Bergkamp the Man commits to print the first of a two-parter that will provoke much debate, I am sure. I thank him for his contribution. I’m sure we will discuss it over a pint or two in the new year. If you want to win a copy of Tom Oldfield’s biography of Le Professeur you still can here.
A run of relatively poor performances quickly exposes Arsenal to the ire and thoughts of retribution by the disenchanted in these social-media-fired times. Arsene Wenger’s ‘incompetence‘ regularly bubbles to the top of this ‘hit’ list, only marginally ahead of the perennial favourite for hit pickers, funding and the price of entry to watch the mighty Gunners.
These two disparate themes need to be decoupled. Those who judge Arsene to be the root cause of poor performance are entitled to their view, of course they are. I side with the perspective expressed by Paul Merson in his post-Anderlecht comments on another woeful performance “Arsene isn’t the problem. He could walk into any other club in Europe tomorrow.” I’m no longer motivated to argue the toss with those who beg to differ. I do acknowledge that there are many shades of grey in that debate.
The constant expression of anger at the fact that Arsenal “charges too much” for tickets continues to amuse, however. This appears to come from the same group that is consumed by Arsene Wenger and his team’s inability to perform at the standard they demand. Ironic? I’d say so. “Arsenal are being run as a business now. We’re no longer fans, we’re customers, bums on seats and nothing more.”
Guess what? Be careful what you ask for or you might get it. With their relentless demand for ever more success, the disenchanted have sewn the seeds of their own current discontent. The teams who consistently and repeatedly win trophies are distinct in one primary respect. They have more money than the majority. So they can acquire, retain and develop the cream of the players. Best players eventually comprise the best, winning teams. QED.
But here’s the kicker. These top players demand the highest wages. Why wouldn’t they? Like it or not, football is part of a multi-billion pound global sports entertainment industry. It’s no longer just ‘football, the game to entertain the troops now that they’re home from the trenches’ or in any of its guises in the decades since. And these wages need to be financed.
“But Arsenal used to be different” proclaim many. “Why can’t they be warm and fuzzy to their fans and still win?” If you want to swim with the sharks, the European elite, Real, Bayern, Barca, Man Utd and their like, you can’t behave like Flipper the friendly porpoise I’m afraid. The only route in the current construction is driven by economics, specifically more money.
Arsenal made 6M profit in 2013 on a ‘take’ of 243M. That’s 2%, bottom of the league, knocked-out-of-the-cup at home versus Potters Bar performance. If you think Stan’s running Arsenal for profit, he would have done better to stay in the family business and buy Tesco. And £155m of the take went on salaries for the players. If you want to throw bricks, the players rather than Stan and ‘his’ ticket prices might be a better target?
There are three routes to more income :
1. Match day
2. Broadcasting
3. Sponsorships/Partnerships
- Arsenal has closed the gap on Man U and reaps 100M from game day. Tick. (Thanks for buying the seats, folks)
- Arsenal will outperform the Mancs on broadcasting this season
- Sadly, on sponsorships, Arsenal trails multi-million pounds behind. Man U’s premier deals, Adidas (75M) + Chevrolet (51M) + Aon (18M) = 144M; trump Arsenal’s Puma (34M) + Emirates (30M) by a staggering 80M pounds each year. That’s enough to buy and pay one Paul Pogba every year before Arsenal even gets on level pegging.
If you want the team to win, suck up the price of your seat and smile. While you’re at it praise the Lord or Lady that during the barren years of funding our club had Arsene Wenger weaving miracles and maintaining competitiveness at the top table. “Don’t like the sound of that”, you say? “Silent Stan should dip into his pocket and pull out a Rooney, a Messi or a Reus”, you say. “Alternatively he should cut the price of tickets in half and just take the hit”, you say.
I have news for you, not one of these is ever going to happen.
If you want cheaper seats, they’re available just down the road at Stratford or Charlton. If you want to watch Mesut, Theo, Alexis, Danny, Ox and Ollie ‘do what they do’, pay up and be grateful. If you think that the team is only one or two players away from global dominance, be pleased that Arsenal’s business brains are working hard on closing the sponsorship gap between Arsenal and the elite. And, if Silent Stan requires 3M for his expert services and advice on closing the 80M pound hole, be happy – you’ll love the silver that pours from the dark cloud you see above you to quell your depression.
Do I like paying top dollar to watch the team I used to watch for a fiver in the era when you could walk through the turnstile on the day? It really doesn’t matter. I live in today’s reality and pay my way willingly. I don’t blame Stan. I don’t even blame the players and their £155m pound salary take. And, of course, I don’t blame Arsene Wenger, the greatest manager Arsenal has had and most likely will ever have.
And am I completely happy? Well not really, but that’s a story for another day.
101 Responses to “Guest Post – Cheap Seats And Tales Of Arsene Wenger”
two straight? can you believe it?
this time without reading the post. 🙂 off to read!
Wow.
btm, just as tasty as your last was bitter.
i think the discord we see are supporters struggling to get to your enlightened point of view, those who wish to be back in the fiver and terraces era and have no choice but to be resentful and angry in the 75er and “stand and take a chance of being bounced by a lousy steward” era.
That’ll put the tiger among the pigeons. Nice one squirrel. 🙂
I need to reflect on this article.
I’m a moaner about prices just because I don’t like my ticket for Arsenal v Bayern costing £85 last season. Bayern themselves are a great example of a club that is superbly organised financially , has no oligarch bankrolling them but has built up a very strong financial position without charging their fans anything like the sums we have to pay.It has strong sponsorships and maybe we need to do better still in that respect.
The sadness from your suck it up perspective is that it prices the real fans like our friend Esso out of attending games, prevents youngsters attending with their Dads and leads to an ever greater dependence on the corporate pound with its inevitable impact on the atmosphere in the ground and the whole matchday experience . Frankly I’m extremely well paid and have two tickets but I’m starting to wonder how much longer I will go simply because the prices are so very high and as I move towards retirement it will be a stretch. Holic has indicated much the same here to me.
Ultimately the scenario you envisage will kill Arsenal as we know it and the new breed of fan will make it harder and harder for a manager like Arsene to have the time he has hitherto been given because shorn of a deep inherited love for the club they will demand instant success or else.
That’s a bleak prospect and one I don’t think I want to see come to pass. I can see your argument BTM, I just don’t want to think it has come to this. When people talk about money ruining football this is what they mean
Bunch of worthless crap. Well, the part about me at least. 😉
Provocative read indeed.
Money is the driver now and it is hard to see that changing. I also think it’s hard to compare Arsenal to Bayern or either of the Spanish Giants when you are talking about money. The Spanish teams have prospered for 20 years by having a very large bias in funding from TV contracts and government “help”.
Bayern also have benefitted from getting sweet deals on financing for their stadium and also by having very wealthy and very German sponsors pay top dollar for their enforcements.
When Comparing Arsenal it is best to look at other teams in the PL. Unfortunately even there you are not exactly comparing apples to apples now are we.
Enforcements= endorsements
TTY. The comparison with Bayern Munich may not be all that useful as Germany is a different country and culture where ticket prices have been held down overall. Even though I know very little about how German football managed to keep prices down, it seems the Premier League has to be moving toward the Bundesliga model on that score. Not only for fans’ enjoyment but for the long-term health of the league.
BtM. Great article. Sponsorships and partnerships seem to be the place to improve then. The question is how to get the money to succeed without becoming even more of a corporate whore than we already seem to have become. Not a pretty picture.
Unless we go on a run the next few weeks, months and years and become the envy of Europe, that is. 🙂
Wait for the inevitable huge increase in value of the tv deal, the tv fan being squeezed even more as a result and the match going fan being forced to factor in Friday night football.
Oh my, oh my.
Sunday can’t come faster enough, bring on Liverpool and some actual football.
I still believe it all boils down to success on the field. I don’t think fans will complain as much about ticket prices if the team is winning trophies (PL,CL).But you don’t expect fans to just carry on paying the highest prices in Europe every season and, the team ends up with nothing (4th place). When Arsene was winning trophies in his early years, I doubt fans was complaining this much, because all they cared about was winning and when that’s is not the case folks will start complaining.
The club treads an interesting tightrope . At one end they need the season ticket money as the close season starts in June but at the other end they probably might be happy to see the number of season ticket holders decrease. My reasoning for this is that if 5000 seats came available for sales to silver and red members every one would be taken up by less than regular fans who would be more inclined to invest in souvenirs and spend their hard earned . Strangely it is also possible that the seats the club might prefer to take control of would be the cheaper seats those that are occupied by those that were from Highbury’s Clock end and North Bank . That would not reduce the amount of income too drastically but would be more likely to be sold to the younger element with a fair disposable income. A fair number of the lower tier season ticket holders are getting on in age and have less need or desire to buy a shirt ,key ring or even a programme and mostly drink in the pubs surrounding the stadium , 5000 new extras would be good for business.
@SanAntionioGunner
Convenient that you don’t include the FA Cup in your parentheses with PL and CL. The FA Cup, which we won last season, is a legitimate trophy that is part of the treble. Those who are ideologically entrenched as anti-Wengerites cannot keep moving the goalposts to keep their narrative intact.
I think this article is a breath of fresh air as it does a fantastic job of talking about the issues from a non-ideological perspective: no blame, no demonizing, no fear mongering. I hope to see more of these types of articles in the future. Thanks for the post.
A superb read BtM a drink of your choice is on the bar!
Of course its all about the money these days, football clubs these days are corporate franchises and will always look for more. If you look at Man U then really there is nothing else to say. With success that they had under Fergie made them massive on international scale, even though they are in debt and because they were winning titles that in it self gave them foundations to get better sponsorship contracts and other deals that helped them financially. This also brings you good/better players, it has to be said that decent players want to play for a club that is winning trophies or a club that can challenge for them every year. We all know too well we can’t compete against the the likes of Man City and Chelski, I’m proud that Arsenal have done it the right way, however the ticket prices are on the high if you ask me. I would love to attend more games in a season but I can’t really afford it it has to be said. Perhaps once we win few trophies things will change, for now it wont stop me going but I wont go as often as I would like to.
If only some of these star players would sign on a free and accept 20 grand a week for the honour of playing for Arsenal. You think they’d be queuing at the door, aye…
Why can’t Flipper just kick them pesky sharks outa tha water??
Öskar
@15 Jae, happy we won the FA Cup! But the FA cup has lost, or losing its uniqueness. Even Wigan won it not too long ago. You don’t know what my narrative is? So please don’t talk to me about moving goal posts. It’s so funny how people always wants to blame the fans for everything wrong with the club, when the so called fans are still paying to go see the team perform below or above average.
The FA cup has lost its uniqueness?
As far as I know there’s still only one.
Look at the viewing figures, worldwide. The FA Cup is still right up there. Different these days yes, but still prestigious in a way that no other purely national cup competition is.
even wigan, sag? isn’t that kind of the point of the facup?
perhaps, flipper, enlightened wasn’t the right word. not trying to run anyone down for still wishing for 5£ tickets, etc. it just creates a dissonance because those days are NOT coming back, not unless (god forbid) arsenal ends up in league 3, and then it won’t matter… i feel for people who have gone all their lives and are now screwed by the new order of things that is so drastically different from the old, like ttg and le guv who have to even question can they look at the season ticket expense and handle it into their reclining years.
and i think it’s that dissonance that’s being expressed and acting as a hydraulic mining hose entrenching positions behind brigadoon-esque bulwarks of problems that are not the problem…
Thought provoking article BTM.
I agree if you want to watch the best at anything, you have to pay top dollar..
No different for the best:
theatre show/art exhibition/tennis/golf/ best restaurant..
To enjoy the best, the organiser/owner has the right to charge accordingly based on supply and demand.
If you want to enjoy a cheeseburger with a fancy name in Sydney with views of the Harbour bridge and Opera house, it will cost you $28 and a beer for $10.
That is supply and demand.
Mesut Ozil plus a nice stadium + Alexis Sanchez + clean toilets = big bucks to see…
SAG hits nail on head.
Winning is the simple solution to a simple problem.
It only becomes complicated when the organise/owner tries to charge top dollar for poor food/ poor show or top 4 is enough…
in other news, i sure am glad we didn’t take a flyer on balotelli:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/balotelli-given-one-match-ban-over-racist-post-184723317–sow.html
idiot.
I think to say winning the PL or CL is the answer is a bit of a simplistic view and much more difficult to achieve. By most accounts we spend about the 4th highest wage bill in the league, so we should finish about 4th. We charge the highest for tickets ( although not always) because we don’t have an oil oligarch and we built and financed a stadium that put us behind others in sponsorship. The money has to come from somewhere. We are trying to balance things.
“Just win and the grumbling will decrease” is a bit of a catch 22. You have to spend (and charge ) to win, and not just for 1 year to build a squad to compete for the CL or PL. That winning does not happen overnight and sometimes it can take years to build that squad. Oh and by the way we are competing against teams that have been able to spend more for longer. Thus we are still not there. But we are making steps to get there.
This is the final stage of our long term plan that was put in place when we built the stadium. Rome was not built in a day and neither was a title winning team. Even City had to take small steps before winning the PL and they have yet to do anything in the CL. Before they won the PL they won that silly old FA cup. We have started to see spending and I believe we will also start to see results. This season we have been unlucky ( some of it was poorly managed) but it’s not over yet and there are signs that we might be turning a corner. Will we win the PL or CL this year? Probably not, but we will get closer going forward, I believe.
Uniqueness probably is the wrong word. But you guys know the point I was trying to make it, at least I hope so. Aussie,thanks.
“While you’re at it praise the Lord or Lady that during the barren years of funding our club had Arsene Wenger weaving miracles and maintaining competitiveness at the top table.”
Spot on. Most teams in the league can’t get into the top 4, let alone doing it while paying for a world class stadium and facilities.
Top post BtM, thanks for the great read.
One of Arsenal FC’s biggest strength is also its hardest challenge when it comes to revenues and player attraction: location.
London appeals greatly to foreign players as a destination for all the obvious reasons and does play its part in attracting top talents. And a well-run and consistently top level club from London with clean image and an enjoyable match day experience appeal to sponsors.
But at the same time having a few other major clubs in the city — and one of them financially doped to a historically unprecedented degree, as a result assembling squads and winning accolades that significantly improve their brand identity — who are direct competitors in the same league does mean that both for prospective players and sponsors there are easy ‘alternatives’ .
Despite all that, I am sure most PL followers would agree that if the Chelsea phenomenon didn’t happen (which had a terrible cascading impact on PL’s finances, culminating in the absurdity that is Man City’s “squad” ) even in those lean years Arsenal would have won a few more league titles, spending almost nothing. Something to think about.
Comparisons to Bayern or the Spanish giants are heedlessly ambitious at best, spurious at worst. Bayern is the only major club in football crazy and financially robust Bavaria, the next best club being Nürnberg who are often a relegation candidate. As a result Bayern have immense following, mindshare and economic clout, especially when you consider their traditional oppositions for top honors are always the clubs in the industrial Rhine valley : Monchengladbach (Arsene’s favorites growing up), Dortmund, Schalke vying with each other for local prominence and relying on a fan base with much less financial clout.
And as for Real or Barca, as NorCal pointed out, the favoritism in the system is simply atrocious. A comparison of Barca to Espanyol’s finances or Real’s to Atleti’s will tell you the whole story. Barca, especially, has leveraged this whole Catalan identity aspects cynically (history tells us of key Barca figures actually being close to Franco) to their own advantage.
A relatively equivalent comparison to Arsenal would be Roma. Major club in the political and cultural capital, but NOT the industrial heartland where the clubs Juve, Milan, Inter (as in England are ‘Pool, ManU). Roma’s closest local competitors are Lazio (with its own fascist connections kind of as likable as Spurs…). Roma has three league titles, Lazio has two.
Looking at Arsenal’s history, consistency seems to have been the key. And also a willingness to swim against the tide for some principles, and to stand proudly as a ‘different type’ of club from whatever was the accepted norm to success. As a result the true purple patches are few and far between and whenever there is a cluster of “success” it was due to some innovation/originality (may it be Chapman or Wenger).
If Arsenal is to preserve that sense of identity & originality I don’t think it is likely to ever enjoy a Bayern/Real/Barca/ManU/Pool like dominance over decades. At least not in the near future. There are just too many factors agains such a configuration. But that simple coincidence of history & geography should not make the followers of Arsenal FC be any less proud of the club.
Great set up for a good debate, BtM. And you tell it as it is, regardless of how it should be or how we might wish it to be. As one who grew up on the North Bank in the days when you could get a thrupenny bag of chips and still get change from a tanner, I look askance at today’s prices. But then I looked askance at some of the football that I saw in the ’60s and ’70s, too. The money now in the game isn’t going away. It is the increase in the TV money that has driven the players’ wages and thus the costs of tickets. I only wonder what will happen when there are more multi-billionaires bankrolling teams than there are trophies to win.
Good article, BtM.
Before we won the FA cup, if was definitely included in the standard barometer of success. Statements like “I’d rather win the FA cup than finish fourth” cropped up repeatedly, people pointed out that the likes of Wigan had won a trophy more recently than us, etc, etc.
Then we win it, and suddenly it’s not a “major trophy” and insufficient to satisfy the moaners.
It certainly felt like a major trophy to me when tens of thousands of people thronged the streets of N7 last May. Goalposts constantly shifting – no doubt if we win the title we’ll soon be hearing “ah, but he never won the champs league”.
Re: the article, I think TTG makes a fair point that the pricing is a long term issue which will eventually bar certain people (including long term fans and the young) from attending games, and that can only be a bad thing. It’s important that this issue is raised, sensibly and non-hysterically (AST take note, no tantrums please) with the club. On the other hand, for those who can afford to keep attending and choose to do so, I very much agree with the spirit of BtM’s piece: that at some point we need to dial down the moaning, because the match day experience is ultimately what we make it. If we all sit around complaining about tickets and lack of fourth choice CB, then – yes – we’re going to have a shitty time in that stadium.
The bit that made me want to stand up and applaud though, was the nod to player wages as the true factor inflating ticket prices. And you know what caused runaway wage inflation in the last decade? Oil money. This is what FFP is ultimately about: trying to ensure we don’t end up with journeyman right backs on 500k a week because a handful of clubs have a bottomless pit of cash (albeit hopefully slightly less so if the Rouble continues to drill its way to the core of the Earth) and don’t need to worry about petty matters such as return on investment. If you want cheaper tickets then the single best thing you can do is to back FFP and any other measures designed to curb or even reduce player wages, because that’s where the extra cash is going.
COYG
First things first: BtM, thanks for a very thought-provoking post, this is a tricky topic but one I think we can only benefit from discussing as rationally as we can.
But can’t we once and for all dispense with this myth that Arsenal are charging the highest prices in Europe? SOME of our tickets are, but far from all. Almost all those surveys that I have seen completely miss that an Arsenal season ticket includes seven cup games, and averaged per game it is more expensive to watch Tottenham, for example. Also, the worst kind of comparison is the “cheapest ticket” bullcrap, that gives a totally skewed picture. Arsenal could sell one ticket for a fiver to each game and claim to have the cheapest tickets in the league, but it wouldn’t make it very true.
My recipe for pushing wages down is, as I am sure I have mentioned here before, to introduce a much firmer cap on squad sizes and banning loans for players 22 years or older. If clubs like City, Chelsea, PSG, Real and others (hell, us included too – Bendtner a particular case in point) have to take into consideration that they have to be able to sell players that don’t work out then they are going to have to pay them less too.
As for the comparison with Bayern, well, as succesful as they have been in the past few years let us also not forget that they are to a large extent currently riding on a golden generation. Like others have pointed out, they don’t have much in the way of local competition either. They also have a stadium (paid for with tax money, lest anyone forgets) which holds 25% more than the Emirates as they are allowed standing sections for domestic games. And while the tickets in Germany are, on average, cheaper than in the PL that is partly down to them having the luxury of being allowed standing sections.
Also, while their standing sections have cheap tickets, the better seats in the stadium are not exactly free either. Have a look here, for example:
http://www.fcbayern.de/de/tickets/ermaessigungen/
70 Euros for a seat may not be £85, but it is still about £55 so still not exactly dirt cheap. And note that they only have two categories, whereas Arsenal have three. Yes, a ticket at the Allianz is cheaper than one at the Emirates but far from as much cheaper as those “ooh, look, you can get in for a tenner in Germany!” articles would have you believe. And if Arsenal were allowed a standing section I am quite sure you’d see cheaper tickets there too. More people in the stadium also means more beer, hot dogs and stuff sold.
All this said, do I think the tickets at the Emirates are too expensive?
Yes, I do. I have friends who have been going for donkeys who are struggling to afford their season tickets and this has to ring alarm bells for the club. At the same time, I do understand the balancing act, even dropping the prices by as little as a fiver a ticket would mean the club losing out on upwards of eight million pounds a season (depending on how many cup games we get to play at home) and looking at the numbers BtM gave us, i.e. a 6M profit, well… we can all do those maths, can’t we?
Anyway, those are my thoughts on this rather complicated topic.
I don’t know much about American sports but to my untrained eye it seems like the NBA and NFL have teams (franchises) that are overloaded with sponsorship money, yet the prices of the average game over there seems to be about the same price as the Arsenal tickets.
I’m not sure if the fans of those teams who pay for those tickets all expect success as a direct result of paying through the nose for it, but then again, sporting events seem to be less of a life-or-death matter in America and more of an outing.
But let’s look on the bright side folks, with the financial crisis in Russia, and an oil crisis on the horizon, we might be one of the few clubs in England set up for success!
Oh, and N7: don’t forget the “and we didn’t play anyone decent on the way to the final anyway, so there!!!” argument. Yes, we may not have beaten Chelsea and City on the way but it seems many have forgotten that we did beat a high-flying Liverpool shortly after having been utterly hammered by the same team, a very much in-form Everton, plus Spurs and Hull. And we did beat the team that beat City away – who also beat City in the final the year before. Winning the cup can’t be compared to winning the league of course but it still isn’t easy by any stretch of the imagination. It’s 90 minutes, even teams who on paper are inferior feel they have a chance in every game and the FA Cup is still by far and away the most prestigious domestic cup competition anywhere in the world.
Cheaper tickets?! Wage Cap on players salary across the board and you’ll have that! Methinks wages are a major MAJOR part of the problem!
Obscene and unsustainable! (unless of course ticket prices keep going up..!)
No Koscielny this weekend.
We’ll still beat Pool!
😀
Not now Arseblog has compared Brad Jones to the janitor from Hong Kong Phooey we won’t. He’ll perform like His Holiness The Shay of Given now and we’ll be so frustrated, we’ll be balder than Arseblogger by the end.
Maybe that’s his cunning plan. Jinx Jones (good nickname that) so we’re all more slappy than Blogs come Sunday night.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20141219/wenger-how-i-signed-alexis
Read that and weep Pool!
We’re gunning for you!
Up The Arse!
😀
“But here’s the kicker. These top players demand the highest wages. ”
So by that logic Arsenal have better players than Chelsea? Because we hear that we have a higher wage bill. So are Arsenal underperforming by that measure or is our squad inferior to Chelsea’s as the table and results against top sides suggests? If so who sanctioned these excessive wages? You can’t have it both ways.
And let’s be clear, since Maureen returned Arsene has spent MORE net on players than Chelsea, yet they have remodelled their side and are now favourites for the title while if anything we have gone backwards this season. Money used to be an easy get out, but with FFP actually taking effect that particular excuse is one for the history books.
1. Unlike Mourinho, Wenger has actually won trophies in the last two and a half years.
2. You can’t assess transfer spend based purely on an 18 month window because it suits your argument. It’s like saying that, despite my spending far more money on clothes than you for the last 15 years, you should have a better wardrobe than me because you got your wallet out in the last 18 months.
3. I love the idea that money is an “excuse”. We had a zero transfer spend for a decade. We only started spending money 18 months ago. Since then, precisely one full season has been played and we’ve won one major trophy. And across the previous decade, lack of funds wasn’t an “excuse” – we just didn’t have any dough.
Would any of those who claimed during that long period of austerity that we weren’t spending money because Wenger hated doing so like to step up and admit that, in the light of recent events, they’ve been proved comprehensively wrong? Thought not.
And yes, we did spend a bit on wages during that time. Fourth most in the country. So let’s take our transfer spend for the period (20th highest in the country), combine it with that transfer spend and calculate that par performance would have been a regular finish of 12th place. In fact, let’s assume wages have more impact and tweak it slightly: a generous 8th place. “Excuse” my backside.
That should have read fourth highest wage bill for the period, rather than transfer spend, obviously.
The price thing is something that always is a catch 22 for all. I am someone who watches the game on TV as i do not stay in the UK so the ticket prices are something that i would not be able to comment on. For me to relate to the amount is like comparing like for like, 85 pounds for an Arsenal Bayern game at the emirates, lets say i need to pay 85 rs or even 850 rs for that game, i will pay it eyes closed. The actual pound rate is 1 pound is close to 100 Indian rupees. So an 85 pound ticket will be close to 8500 rupees. Will i pay that much? yes, every game?? no, because i cannot afford it. Hence the ones paying for the actual tickets and specially the season ticket holders will know better than me.
Overall with the self sustaining model that we run wherein majority of the money we get is from the above mentioned sources, the cry of a lot who say why dont we spend money is hollow. The money we get invariably goes on maintaining the team and hence when the question of why did we not spend the extra dollar arises, the expenses should answer the question.
I do believe Wenger believes in retaining the players by paying them higher wages than go out and buy newer ones. One of the main reasons he feels let down of players leaving is for the same reason. He has not only stood by them but also paid them quite well to retain them. Yes the quite well does not translate to very well when compared to the kind of money a city/chelsea or the spanish clubs will offer them to come.
Also this retention policy of Wenger would have worked wonders because you need the same set of players to stay and play together to start winning. The 2007-08-09 campaigns comes to mind when he had the quartet of flamini,hleb, cesc and rozza together. We could have won the league and also reached the semis of the ucl with that squad, so imagine a couple of additions to that.
Wenger likes building teams and hence he does not mind the wages as much. His problem is he does not like to buy a finished article to many times, because he may feel that may cause some disharmony within the team. One of the reasons of letting go the king was also this i believe, the kids were overawed by the man and wenger knew, Henry’s time was up with us.
Yes he has realized that for the team to succeed, he needs a mix of his players he has built up, the likes of Jack,Aaron, Gibbs etc with the ready players like Sanchez and Ozil. This should ideally be the winning combo provided he had a couple of solid defenders and a gk.
Pool over the weekend. The last time carnage is still fresh. Can we return the favor? odds are no but birthday boy Sanchez may have other ideas.
P.S- can i still get a chance to enter the competition for the book about the boss???
Interesting reply N7, first of all it’s ironic that conveniently pick the last 2.5 years for Maureen but tell me I shouldn’t just pick the last eighteen months for Arsene. Double standards? 😉
That still doesn’t explain how we have a wage bill bigger than Chelsea though does it? With a poorer squad unless AW is underachieving of course. And it’s disingenuous to focus on transfers alone, wages are usually the best correlation to league position. That’s assuming that we didn’t have funds to compete before, which is patently untrue. Did the £200m+ in cash reserves suddenly drop out of the sky last season? No, anyone who can read a set of accounts knows we have had large unspent reserves for many seasons. Don’t take my word for it, read the published accounts (or Swiss Ramble who provides an excellent analysis).
So no, I don’t accept that we had no dough because it’s there in black and white (not to mention multiple statements to the contrary by board members over the years).
Don’t get me wrong, I know we had less to throw around than some others, but look at our turnover, fourth was merely par for the course, nothing special. Nobody expects guaranteed trophies but we do expect to challenge. With a little more ambition we could have won the title last season, come January with all our strikers injured (and a ridiculous reliance on OG) we failed to act decisively and we all know what happened then. AW has some pretty obvious blind spots and if he cannot or will not address them then it’s time for a new start.
@andy
I didn’t select the recent period – you did, when you complained about our spending more than Chelsea lately. I simply played your own argument back and pointed out that – yeah, we have – and we have the trophies to show for it, which Mourinho does not.
Swiss Ramble openly acknowledges that his reports involve guesswork. We clearly did not have £200m to spend or we would have done so, or at least some of it. I presume you believe that the club woke up one sunny day in August 2014 and went “shit – Twitter is right. We DO have all this dough lying around the place. Better start spending it”. Or maybe, as seems more likely to me, and as the club have now repeatedly made clear, the financing of the stadium involved a complex balancing act of paying down debt in an extremely unstable market, prone to massive cost inflation, culminating in an improved financial footing as of 2014? Does that seem remotely possible? Or is that just their cover story?
So, your proposal is that we just ignore the total lack of transfer spend entirely? Yeah, it’s probably not a big deal is it? Even against wage spend alone, we hit or exceeded par every season.
Your argument that we always had money relies on a belief that we chose not to spend it for some mysterious, unaccountable reason, for a very long period, before suddenly totally reversing that position in summer 2014: the very summer the club had previously identified as a financial turning point.
Regardless of all of it, you are attempting to use league performance vs financial spend as a stick with which to beat the club, based on a single three month period (since August this year) as against Chelsea, totally ignoring our excellent performance by the same gauge over the medium and long term. Incredibly selective sampling, by any measure.
Ultimately, if you want to attack the club for spending narrowly more than Chelsea recently and yet under performing them, then that’s fine – PROVIDED that you’re willing to give credit to the club for the numerous occasions in recent seasons on which they’ve outperformed free spending rivals. Anything else is pure hypocrisy. You either consider cash spent a fair barometer or you don’t – you can’t pick and choose.
If you don’t think the club are performing as they should be, then that’s fine. It has been a bad start to the season, and Chelsea are proving more efficient than us on this occasion. All of that is fact, and fully merits a moan. Why you have to make up bollocks to be upset about, or cling to a fantasy of the mean manager, hunched on his gold mountain and refusing to spend it is beyond me.
Some data points for one and all:
N7G@29: Bloomberg reckons that Abramovich’s fortune has shrunk in dollar terms by $1.6 billion, or 11%, so far this year. He still has $12.8 billion, though. The monks reckon that $450 million of that $1.6 billion decline is attributable directly to the fall in the rouble. Though he is still the largest shareholder in Russia’s biggest steelmaker and has a stake in the world’s biggest nickel producer, also a Russian company, he has for some years been diversifying his investments by buying non-rouble denominated assets such as, er, the Chavs.
Lars@30: It is the TV money that is driving players’ wages. End of.
CoR@31: Court side tickets at Madison Square Gardens for a NY Knicks game cost $500-600 (£320-380 at current exchange rates). Cheapest seats up in the Gods cost $65 (£41). Knicks are having a horrible season.
andy1886@38: Not the point you were making, I know, but in the Premier League era, Arsenal’s net transfer spend is £116.6 million; Chelsea’s is £650.7 million.
Vinay@41: You are a big part of the reason (me, too, and all the other far-flungs) that TV rights money has shot up up as fast and high as it is. There will come a day, believe me, when the TV companies will have to subsidise stadium ticket prices to keep the stadiums full and atmospheric to enhance their broadcasts.
Sanogo being farmed out on loan in January, according to the BBC.
Cheers BtM. Provocative? Consider me provoked.
To seek to establish a link, as you do, between “the same group”, (hahahaha, oh my sides), that are anti-Wenger and those that seek to protest at the ridiculous cost of watching Football these days, (at any Premiership Ground, not just the Arsenal), is at best a little bit cheeky, and at worst, downright disingenuous. There is no connection … nada, zip, zilch, fuck all.
The two subjects are so unrelated that they are not even distant cousins. Even cursory discussions with other fans will reveal many who remain firmly/conditionally/just (delete as appropriate – as you say, there are many shades of grey) in Arsene Wenger’s camp and yet have a deep antipathy towards meeting the wholly obscene and ultimately unsustainable price hikes. There are likely to be just as many “Pro Wenger” fans getting behind Supporter Initiatives to reduce pricing as those arguing for his dismissal.
Conversely, there are likely to be just as many rabid anti-Wengerites as not, rattling their jewelry at the rest of us from Club Level, and who, presumably, are more happy than most to “suck up the cost of their seat” given that they have chosen to sit in the most expensive part of the ground.
Linking the two? Either comic brilliance or pernicious nonsense, depending on what side of the bed one gets out of on any given day I suppose.
I shall be at Liverpool at Sunday. Ticket cost £60. I shall be “sucking it up” inasmuch as I shall be there, but i shall also support any initiatives to reduce the cost of tickets for myself and others in the future. I shall also give AW a cheer, win lose or draw. See what I did there?
It is also wrong to seek to link the cost of matchday pricing with “success”. Chelsea and Man City have been successful because of oligarch/oil money, Bayern and Man Utd because of the hegemony of their commercial operations, Madrid and Barca because of the primacy of their position in Spanish TV negotiations. A 5% hike in ticket prices yields another £5m (on your figures). It is a drop in the ocean, just about enough to keep Alexis Sanchez in new Speedoes and tasty Empanadas for about 6 months. It is not, and never will be, the difference between “success” and “failure” at Arsenal’s level.
I shall close by saying that i am “amused”- (admittedly amusement of the curled lip variety rather than the hearty laugh)- by those who find their own “amusement” in the anger/frustration/dismay of those that find themselves increasingly priced out of all or some of Arsenal’s games. Such inflammatory myopia is hard to read and even harder to understand, given the clear downward trend in both attendance and atmosphere at Arsenal and elsewhere throughout the country. it needs to be checked, and checked urgently.
As a sidenote, as well as the usual routine games in amongst the great unwashed this season, I have had, care of a friend, the pleasure of 2 games in Club level. Barring the odd chap getting himself chucked out for “over-exuberance”, the atmosphere in there reminded me of a gnat’s arse – impossible to locate, but almost certainly smelly if you ever came across it. If this is the type of fan the Club wishes to attract then fine, but don’t expect him/her to turn up on a wet Tuesday night and don’t expect him/her to turn up when the Club aren’t doing so well. The empty seats around Club level (and elsewhere) for all but the biggest games this Season are testament to that. A pricing policy based on Aussie’s “simple solution to a simple problem” of just “winning” is, whilst true, horribly and laughably flawed in the competitive world of Sport, especially in circumstances where even an FA Cup is not sufficient to satisfy the demands of the new breed of fan. Lack of uniqueness apparently. Woe betide you if you stop winning Arsenal.
Should the Club continue to show a similar disregard for it’s attending fanbase as that sadly evidenced above, such complacency will have it’s reward one day when those few Club Level supporters who can still be arsed to turn up will suddenly stop munching on their prawn sandwiches long enough to look down and find that the atmosphere provided by those below has suddenly disappeared because there’s no-one there. Can’t afford it … or can’t be arsed. Either or. That dystopian day draws ever nearer when such complacent short-term thinking abounds or is encouraged.
No doubt the marketeers will allow themselves a great big self-satisfied pat on the back at that point (is there a bigger wet dream for them than an income stream unaffected by an empty stadium?). It will, however, be an empty short-term and misplaced sense of a job well-done. Match day income may be the smallest of the three income streams, but it is the income stream on which the other two are entirely predicated. Start playing to empty seats and watch the sponsors scuttle and the TV money slide. Look after your supporters Arsenal, or the whole thing collapses.
A second part you say? Pass me my paper hat. It must be the silly season.
Sanogo on loan. Best news of the day and with due respect to the lad. I do not think so he is good enough for us now maybe never but then i wil be happy to be proven wrong.
Ballotelli banned for a game means Lambert starts or plays a part of the game sunday. This could actually work for pool as they have a big strong target man against our defense. More likely would be Sterling as the false nine to start of with.
Theo may get a look in but worrying part is Ox and Nacho have late fitness tests which just may mean we will have Coquelin playing in midfield which is a worry considering we also have flamini playing there.
We need to score first, pool will want to repeat the dose of last time by coming out all guns blazing at the start. We need to ensure we do not make any individual mistakes and then get the all important first goal.
Overall its a tantalizing prospect of two teams who desperately need to win but cannot afford a loss. Draw likely on cards but then it is about time we win such games.
I have been extremely busy this week, in the run up to a Christmas break, and this is the first chance I’ve had to respond to your post, BtM.
I thought it was going to take a very long time to fashion a proper response from so many separate but interlinked strands of thought. But what do I find ?
TABS has gone and done it for me.
Stand out, brilliant post Tabs, and if I had to pick one bit of it, it would be your last (proper) paragraph which deals with the attraction of empty stadia to TV broadcasters. Just try to imagine the tear inducing, neighbour hugging thrill of a Champions League semi final winner, scored at The Emirates, where all that can be heard is Giroud whooping with delight in front of an empty North Bank.
I will not argue with you, BtM, on the value, past and present, of Arsene Wenger to our club. A club which, without him, would be in an entirely different place. Where I part company with you is, like Tabs, on the attempt to marry allegiance to Arsene Wenger with ability to pay sky high prices.
You can all have your own arguments on the finer details of what is meant by “highest”, “lowest”, “lowest average” etc. etc.
But let me give you a personal example :
When we moved to The Emirates, due to holidays and administrative delays, I was offered a seat in Block 91, Centre Block, Upper Tier, half way up the tier, right over the half way line. A superb view at a premium price – in 2006 it was £1,875 if memory serves.
Cost of renewal this season, due to one or two extra FACup ties last season, was £2,199.
There was, and is, no option on that ticket. I cannot move to a cheaper block – only upwards to Club Level or “down the road to Charlton or Stratford”, as you so kindly put it.
If I want to take my daughter, who absolutely loves the whole day when she has the chance, with me, I have to buy a neighbouring ticket which for Category A games is now priced at £129.00.
A staggering £258.00 to take my daughter to one game of football – and that’s without even considering the cost of travel and refreshments.
I have been going to The Arsenal since 1969, when you could get the weekly shopping and a holiday in Spain, and change, out of a ten bob note.
I have read the “Fungunner” approach of ‘don’t go’ or ‘take your allegiance elsewhere if you can’t afford it’ before.
I find the suggestion that I should “go down the road to Charlton or Stratford” because I would like to be able to take my daughter a bit more often, frankly insulting.
Evidence of the complexities of the situation when the good guys in here disagree. Perhaps now I better understand the dangers of generalising. I take the principal points from all here. The business of football is what it is nowadays and that horse has bolted. That there are casualties there is no doubt. I may soon be one through necessity rather than choice. Let’s keep it robust but civil, a tricky balance I get. Thanks all.
Trev @48, your last paragraph. Thank you sir.
Tabs has absolutely nailed the really important point here ( also well articulated by Trev) that you can love the Gunners with all your heart and understand the remarkable job that Wenger has done over the past eighteen years without accepting as inevitable that to support the team you have to mortgage your soul.
A few weeks ago concerned by how much it cost to support us rather than concerned by results I spoke to Mrs TTG about packing in my pilgrimages to THOF.
To my amazement she was horrified ( and so was her lover the milkman ) . She said but it’s what you do, I can’t imagine you without the Arsenal. It is the biggest bobby you have.
Fair enough it is but why do I feel that my devotion and the devotion of many thousands more devoted than me is being taken advantage of? There is an interesting debate to be has about whether Stan Kroenke is the man we want owning our club but whoever it is I don’t see the situation changing much.
I love this club- probably too much for my own good. But the day I sense that in the Boardroom there is a contempt for the people who really keep this club going I will find it very hard to attend matches . So even if I have to budge up on the couch with Mrs TTG and Milko on Saturday afternoons ( and we stopped buying milk fifteen years ago) I’m out of here if I don’t feel that there is some appreciation of my investment in Arsenal FC. Naive? Almost certainly but to me it is fundamental to how a supporter relates to his club.
Sorry Hobby not Bobby. Bobby is the Milkman
Epic post there tabs, amongst your finest and nailed on in identifying the clearly defined distinction between many fans objecting to the price rises and consultancy fees to Stan and the noisy horde baying for Arsene’s head.
Very fine heartfelt posts (which I share) from Trev and Ttg. The cold hard capitalist monster will suck up our loyalty and our cash and chew us over until each of us individually says, “Enough!” Stillman posted an excellent piece on the conflicting emotions involved in this recently. I’m with Ttg 100% in not liking the feeling of being taken for a sucker by Ivan and Stan. A bit of sincere appreciation, rather than mere marketing spiel would be very welcome.
However I am not sure that they are capable of demonstrating appreciation in an entirely convincing manner. A top DMFer and reliable CB cover would be a start along with a commitment not to raise prices for five years or charge consultancy fees without explaining precise what they were for.
I think one useful way of making progress in this discussion would be to get someone to estimate/evaluate the annual revenue gap if say Arsenal drops the ticket and (non-Club level) membership prices to what it was 5-7 years back. How much would that be? 10-15 million (wild guess, I have no idea what that amount would be)?
And maybe we can work harder on the commercial sponsorship deals, advertisement revenues and merchandise sales (I don’t think we explore the market opportunities in all these categories to its fullest) to make up for much of that.
We have clearly not been making the most of market opportunities for sponsorship despite accepting the limitations imposed by the front loaded deals needed to get into the Stadium. However the thing that wrankles with me is that we are now at the end of the period when they HAD to milk the fans and they still played the market forces game to squeeze the fans again simply to slip Stan a fat wedge for undefined advice. I have some free advice, “keep doing that and the customers who replace your fans will change your business entirely and not for the better.”
And tabs description of the atmosphere in club level is exactly my experience of a single visit to a sterile environment. More atmosphere in a postmortem room frankly.
N7, you seem to be extrapolating from my actual comment to make it something it wasn’t. If you check again you’ll see that I said what we achieved was par for the course. Although we disagree about how much money was available and how long ago (and SR does say it was clear that we’ve had unspent money for some time, even AW has admitted we’ve had money but he chose to trust what he had), my main complaint is that we have spent what money we did have unwisely regards the wages we have paid, in some instances for pretty mediocre players.
Okay I hark on about wages, equally you highlight transfer spend, while if are both going to be fair about it then the combination of the two is the real measure of spend on the squad. For instance if you look at transfer spend the Spuds look terrible, but if you combine the two you’ll see that we outspend them every single year.
I highlighted the statement “But here’s the kicker. These top players demand the highest wages” because the writer seems to have missed the irony in making that statement when we’ve exceeded Chelsea’s wage bill. Hence my question, are our players better in which case we are underperforming on the pitch (better players, poorer results) or are we overpaying and wasting resources? (in which case put your own house in order before complaining about a lack of funds). My view is that in paying the likes of Bendtner and Denilson to name but two in excess of £50k p.w. proves we’ve been very inefficient with our funds. If we hadn’t then perhaps we would have had the financial firepower to plug a few of the more obvious gaps and would have been much closer to a real challenge for the top honours.
@andy
If you ready my first response to you, you’ll see I highlighted transfer spend AND wages. In fact, I proposed giving wages the greater weight in any calculation as to performance.
Obviously, some of those wages went on dross, but that’s linked to transfer spend. When you can’t afford the left back you want, you end up with a Santos. Equally, Chelsea (again, your comparator) spent more on wages for Torres than Denilson and Bendtner will earn in a lifetime. All clubs make mistakes.
Anyway, I sense we’re about to go round in circles, so I’ll leave it at that. Your line about “excuses” caused a lot of my ire above. If that wasn’t intended to denote below par performance then fair dos.
Should we be expressing our gratitude and thanks to Kronke and Gazidis as we are paying less in real terms than in June 2006?
The inflation in ticket prices from 2006/07 to 2014/15 is around 9.3%. Whereas the RPI increase between June 2006 and June 2015 was around 29% and for the CPI the increase was around 25%.
Matic was the sleeper. Nobody around here paid much attention when he was signed, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Chelsea are paying him so little that he is the main reason their total wage bill appears low at the moment. But boy what a player. I could say something similar about about Fernandinho at Manchester City. These are the players that make the difference between a great squad and one that really competes for the title.
Fair enough N7, I do get annoyed when just about everything is put down to “money” when there are plenty of other issues we could address and improve on our performances. If we’re blind to any other issue then we’re not going to get very far (and this isn’t directed at you, more towards the writer). Let’s hope we act wisely and decisively in January, the funny thing is if we actually had all the pieces of the jigsaw we could actually make a realistic judgement about how good Arsene still is (or isn’t) at putting them together.
It’s people like Mr. and Mrs. TTG (especially the Mrs.) who make the Arsenal world go around. 😉
And people like ‘holic and BtM I should never fail to mention. They do more than their share of making the rotations. 🙂
That bastard Bobby the Milkman.
He gets around, doesn’t he?
Zico
He did speak with a Scottish accent as he jumped out of the window in his underpants. Funny place to have a window I thought.
Thanks Bt8b we need a love – in from time to time. Especially if your wife has left with the Milkman.
Off to the QPR game with the little one just bought the tickets…
Come on!
TTG. For some reason the wife seems to head off to the dairy whenever the Arsenal are on the telly. At least yours is supportive about it all. 🙂
An interesting and thought provoking piece – thank you BtM and thank you Holic.
Interesting and thought provoking drinks; thank you all.
I find my own feelings on the subject hard to determine.
£2199 is a hell of a lot of money, but like someone above, I could probably afford it. I don’t pay it because I didn’t have the foresight to put my name on the waiting list several years ago. One of the reasons I didn’t is because I would rather continue to upset my wife only in the ways that I do and I don’t feel it would fair to go and watch footy regularly, adding yet another.
I generally envy those who do have the disposable income to afford a ticket, did have the foresight to put their name’s down and are sufficiently exemplary a husband to be able to go regularly.
On purely factual grounds, if my sums are to be trusted, an increase in prices since 2006 from £1875 to £2199 is 17.16%, or 2.01% per annum.
As to Sonogo, I quote from the BBC – “Arsenal striker Yaya Sanogo is set to leave the club on loan during the January transfer window”. I don’t believe anything I read, anywhere, that features phrases like “is set to”, to the exclusion of those like “has”, but that’s just me.
Heh @ 64.
Some fine recent posts above. Seems unfair to single out just Tabs and Trev, but especial kudos to them.
Tabs, you are particularly on the money (so to speak) about the importance to broadcasters and sponsors of having full stadiums. In my response @44 to Vinay above I suggested that the broadcasters will end up subsidizing ticket prices rather than have games played in front of half-empty grounds.
Christmas break, Trev? Is that how you drum up business for the New Year?
Dr F@54: Match day revenues for 2007 financial year — first season at the Emirates — were 90.6 million pounds. Last year, they were 100.2 million pounds, so on a rough and ready comparison, there would be 10 million pounds of revenue lost if prices were lowered as you suggest.
Pangloss
Your point about upsetting the wife was where I started in my reconsideration of whether I wanted to continue going. Hobbies ( in my view) are all well and good as long as they don’t take up disproportionate amounts of joint income but my beloved seems to feel that I deserve to spend what it costs to go to Arsenal while I can .
Anyway on Sunday I am due to go to the Junior Gunners Christmas party at the ground with my daughter and two grandchildren, one of whom is aged 5 and a Gooner and one who is 7 and supports the LWCs. I have a divided family. The older one is very much under orders not to reveal his affiliation publicly especially as part of the entertainment involves watching the Liverpool game. I fear it may be a formative experience for both of the boys.
NBN @ 70: Thanks. My wild guess turned out to be not that far off the mark. 🙂
I think the club should easily be able to take that loss and recover in better commercial deals. The PR advantages — apologies for the somewhat cynical way of thinking — of such a move (“ticket prices are dropped back to the 2007 level”) is enormous, and at the same time would genuinely address what has become a truly worrying state f disenchantment among the match going fan base.
Oliver, Atkinson and Swarbrick are the referees of our next three games.
The second two probably won’t be too bad but the thought of Michael Oliver at Anfield gives me a case of the heebiejeebies.
With regard to tv broadcasters being reluctant to show swathes of empty seats, perhaps we could recycle the “crowd” billboards used during the redevelopment of the North Bank at Highbury?
The noise levels may suffer but at least everybody would look happy.
Well, most of them anyway!
That’s a great post and some great responses, notably Tabs, Trev, and TTG.
I am thoroughly pissed off I am priced out of attending, with my boy, maybe more than twice a season (without the selfless generosity of some lovely people on here and elsewhere) and I fully support the actions of those who seek to oppose today’s ridiculous level of pricing.
The Bedwetters have always been around, its just seems like there’s more of them these days and they have a foreigner as a focal point for their misplaced ire. I’ve never taken any notice of them and I never will. That said they were less noisy in days of yore and more avoidable. They did n’t doorstep like they tried to do me in The Tollie last week. Luckily I was with a couple of good sorts, so the old red mist did not descend. Cant say as that’ll always be the case.
All that said I still want to see Arsenal win matches and trophies.
All a bit of a paradox really.
The point from the original post I really take on board, is – it’s never changing back lads and lasses. The glory days of following football in this country are done. We will never see their like again.
haven’t been at the arsenal
for a coupla dozen years
when I went
never felt
it was my birth right
fortnightly to attend
enjoyed every game
roared with laughter
at football’s hard men
casually pounding each other’s nuts in
on the way home
clearly same numpties revel in their pointless wallopin
many years on
over beer and the bellies it brings
stuff costs money
f’you don’t have it
tough shit
i don’t
tough shit me
there’s people who worry about important things missing
like their fuckin dinner
if you can afford to go the arsenal
good for you
if you can’t
like me
big deal
boo hoo
ye’ll not die from it
.
.
howdy ‘hol
hope yer well
or
as well as can be expected
UP THE ARSENAL !
Morning cba.
A much-needed tonic, as ever.
morning ‘hol
here’s to the rightful scouse poundin’
.
THE ARSENAL !
happy merry holidays ‘holic and ‘holics
said it before
love this place
love it’s hanger abouters
.
christmas cheers ‘hol
for building this tree house of arse
.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nUKku3MhCPs
And to you and yours, cba.
Festive greetings to you too CBA!
May the Guinness/ Bushmills/ Jamesons etc flow!
Hey cba ♥
BTM, I thought OUR Arsenal was a working class club, like Liverpool.
The whole world over, kids everywhere can play this game. Fashion a ball out of rags, and you’re good to go. Bare feet welcome (Just ask Pele).
The beautiful game, was founded on the SPIRIT of inclusiveness. xx
Cheery holidays to you CBA and a devolutionistic new year!
Abb, Arsenal always reflected London’s population from Nobs in the seats to yobs on the terracing. All this has changed. A few of the old regulars are still hanging on. However if current trends continue it’ll soon just be City Boys and tourists. Stan will be happy as they will generate more income and from Denver he doesn’t notice the change in atmosphere in the ground.
@ 84 I-bath, That’s what we’re afraid of. Hence such a ‘strong’ reaction to BTM’s piece.
Do you think a standing only section could provide more affordable tickets ?Realize it would cost $ upfront for the club to make this happen.
And the ban on standing would have to be rescinded (Duh,Abb 😉 )
West Ham 2-0 up and looking to finish the day 5 points above Arsenal. We better be prepared in a few days’ time to shove some bubbles down their throats.
Lee Mason having a mare at Villa Park just issues a red for something that should never been red! What a Muppet!
ATG. There is a method for dealing with the likes of Mason. Surreptitious kicking. 😉
West Ham and Southampton are back winning. Hammers particularly have been impressively consistent. If we win tomorrow and beat them away on 28th — assuming in between we should be able to get the three points against QPR at home — we will most likely go into the New Year in the top four.
Would be interesting what approach ‘Pool takes tomorrow. They may want to play safe and not push too early. If we are going into the last thirty minutes with 0-0 scoreline I think our quality in the frontline and the bit of midweek rest will decide it in favor of us.
ABB, the politics of standing sections in the English top tier are apparently very complex as a result of reactions to Hillsborough. Lots of resistance in high places.
I`ve heard the name Tyrone Mings mentionned in here a few times ,but not known much about him except having an unfortunate name to carry as a kid.
This interview in the Guardian not only mentions that he is tall left back but also has a generous nature with his feet firmly planted on the ground.
Well worth a read if you are out of the UK where some of the examples of his character have been highlighted in the media.http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/18/tyrone-mings-ipswich
Sorry back in France now
United missed an opportunity to beat a ten man Villa today, you’d expect West Ham to beat Burnley but the result that stands out is the Southampton defeat of Everton who don’t often lose 3-0. Christmas will be tough because Charlie Austin is in prime form for QPR but I would be happy with eight points over Christmas ( in fact I’d be ecstatic). I fancy we will win at either West Ham where we have a great record or at Southampton . It all depends on injuries. We are very short in midfield but hopefully Arteta will be back and possibly Rosicky. It would do us no harm if Koscielny could get fit as well.
TTY, You would indeed expect West Ham to beat Burnley. Except they beat Leicester. Not that you wouldn’t expect them to beat Leicester. Unless they were playing Burnley. Sorry. 🙂
Charlie Austin was in my FFL team as first substitute and it was dicey as to whether I would accrue any benefit but it looks like I do get the 14 points because one of my other players didn’t play. I won’t believe it until I see it on the screen though. 🙂
Faustus @90. I like that scenario and will now begin to visualize it happening. All the highfalutin management types, of whom I know none, seem to say you can’t make anything happen unless you visualize it first. 🙂
8 ball@ 97: More important question would be whether the team would visualise that. 🙂 Arsene’s teams always put together a long winning run at some stage. Hopefully the 4-1 at Gala was the start of such a run…
Bt8b
Details! details!;)
Yes they gave Leicester a stuffing took,
Ping.
Just in time sir 🙂 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>