Dr Jekyll Gunners Almost But Not Quite
Mar 17th, 2015 by 'holic
Yet again in the ’round of sixteen’ Arsenal have produced a wonderful second leg performance in the wake of a poor first leg display. Heroic failure? Maybe less so this time but there is no question that the Gunners came within a whisker of a Champions League quarter-final with an impressive performance in Stade Louis-II.
The early stages were not in the script at all as a confident Monaco got bodies forward and probed with intent. In only the second minute Berbatov teed up Moutinho who thankfully blazed his effort over the bar. Gradually though we got a foothold and the home side reverted to type, defending in depth and in numbers.
Encouraged forward we could have snatched an early lead when Hector Bellerin crossed from the right flank and at the back post Giroud’s header was deflected wide off the head of Wallace. Four minutes later the Frenchman turned provider for a spectacular Santi Cazorla strike but Wallace was again on hand to block.
Midway through the half Laurent Koscielny volleyed against the bar from point blank range only to be adjudged offside from a defensive header. Had he scored that would have been a massive talking point.
Nine minutes before the break we had that oh so important first goal. The increasingly influential Mesut Ozil and Danny Welbeck combined to spin Giroud in behind the defence. Subasic blocked his first effort but Arsenal’s main striker seized on the rebound and smashed a rising volley into the roof of the net from a tight angle. Game on.
Within a couple of minutes it could have been two. Giroud teed up Welbeck but the sprawling Abdennour made a block he knew little about and Monaco, rocking, survived. Three minutes before the break a strange incident saw Arsenal rightly denied a penalty when Alexis tumbled in the box attempting to control an awkward ball. However the award of a yellow card for simulation looked harsh. Having said that I thought it an honest decision by the referee. It was a shame he didn’t apply the same logic when not awarding free-kicks when Monaco players started tumbling.
The half ended with further chances for Giroud and Welbeck, but a goal to the good at the whistle felt a good position to be in against a home team now seemingly intent on holding what they had. The visitors topped the attempts stats by eight to one.
The visitors again demonstrated intent at the start of the second-half but Giroud snatched his effort wide under pressure. Kondogbia upended the unusually wasteful Sanchez on the edge of the box and Ozil’s free-kick forced Subasic into a desperate save.
As the hour passed Arsene made a bold substitution, withdrawing the again mostly excellent Coquelin and sending on Aaron Ramsey. Immediately Arsenal had a greater goal threat, but Monaco sensed an opportunity to kill the match off and rediscovered a little of the adventure with which they had started the match. Having said that we were so close to a second when Ozil’s fierce drive flashed just wide.
With just under twenty minutes to go Theo Walcott was introduced for Welbeck rather than Alexis, somewhat surprisingly. He had a great opportunity to notch the second but struck the post from a great position. Fortunately for Arsenal Kurzawa knocked the rebound to Ramsey who drilled it home. One more and the perfect storm would have yielded an unlikely result.
Arsene’s last throw of the dice, Gibbs came on for the impressive Monreal. The best chance to advance came and Giroud and Sanchez distracted each other at the far post it seemed. Subasic made a desperate parry and it would have been interesting to get a goal-line view of how close it came to crossing the line. There were no real protests to be fair.
Per Mertesacker went forward as an additional striker but we don’t hoof the ball up front, even in these circumstances. The hosts held on through a tortuous closing phase and for the fifth year running Arsenal’s Champions League challenge ended at this stage.
The statistics tell a tale. 71% of possession on the night for the visitors. Seventeen shots (seven on target) for Arsenal, with just three (none on target) for Monaco. Still though the significant stats were posted in the first leg. The ‘Mr Hyde’ Arsenal cost themselves dear at home. Therein lies the lesson to be learned from this campaign.
Big Ears remains a distant dream.
153 Responses to “Dr Jekyll Gunners Almost But Not Quite”
Excellent collective performance. The real benefit of topping the group is not just the relative quality of the competition in R16, but the chance of playing the second leg at home. I know there too we recently blew our chances in that 4-0 away loss at Milan, but to progress in CL further I think winning the group would come a lot handy.
About Danny starting ahead of Rambo, originally I thought it was a questionable decision but then Danny came up with a commendable performance even though started to fade in second half. Rambo is coming back from injury so I suppose it is wise to not play him three times a week for full 90 minutes.
Koscielny was excellent, as was Santi. Ozil had the odd passing mistake but he conducted the match brilliantly, dropping deep, moving across the front line, and providing some great balls. If Alexis and Giroud had a better communication Alexis might have scored from the one where Giroud’s attempt was saved.
Sure the players would channel the frustration in seeding our efforts for the remainder of the season with more drive and camaraderie. We need to maintain our domestic winning run and if we play like this home or away I don’t see why we would not win against any team in England.
I’ve now been present for three of these ‘just might haves’. Munich and Barcelona left me feeling like we’d been beaten by better teams. Feels like we lost to Stirling Albion tonight, Holic. Your mum would have been cheery 🙁
Heads down for an away win at Newcastle.
A fine report, Sir!
I find it difficult to read too much about games nowadays. Other than in this bar there is so much crap spoken. Players like Ozil and Welbeck are being criticised elsewhere but I thought they were excellent. I thought Bellerin and Monreal were top class, Koscielny was magnificent and Santi had a great game. Ramsey looks back close to his best and we can move forward with real optimism. I love this club but I don’t love some of the ‘ supporters’ we have picked up.
Big Ears remains a distant dream.
*Noddying agreement*
😉
Not so frustrated now. Should have gone through across the two legs but so many ifs and buts. Small margins at this level is such a cliche but so true.
Inability to sleep is one of the bad things about nights like this, win or lose.
First top ten
TTG @ 4: Agreed. Ozil’s tirelessness and quality on the ball were key attributes behind our sustained pressure. I heard some are criticizing him swapping shirt — it was Kondogbia who wanted his shirt at the half-time and he did the polite thing. That gesture had no bearing on the game.
With the rub of the green, it could have been five. Again so frustratingly close. And a again a tantalizing glimpse of how good this team can be. Lesson of losing on away goals is not to concede so many at home.
He should have told him to fuck off, Doctor F.
It was wrong when Chubs dos Santos did it and it still is. Nothing to kill him for but just … wrong.
Down but not out…ok..out, but we will never tire to try again and again. For now momentum is key to locking down top four,bring on Newcastle!!! Up the arse!!
Cynic @ 10: I am sure after today Ozil will learn. Not done in English football, he will get that. But hopefully this won’t become the latest stick to beat him up with in some quarters. He had a marvelous game today.
I don’t get that really, Doctor F.
Ozil’s problem, for those that don’t appreciate him (and I am one of those more often than not) is that he doesn’t do enough. I always feel he’s in first gear no matter what and if he just pushed his effort up a bit, he could be a fantastic player for us.
I am not saying he was poor, and I am not slagging him off because the team performance was fine and he was part of that. Just that I always feel he leaves far too much in the tank. I usually feel disappointed by him, but I like him as a player.
NBN @ 9: In the last ten minutes or so out of desperation I was wishing for Sanogo. 🙂 His pure chaos-making ability in the penalty box and the snap shots come in handy against these types of oppositions…Just felt something less cultured might have forced the issue a bit more. If it were early season Alexis he would gotten something out of his hat in the last twenty odd minutes. That guy needs a break.
Cynic @ 12: I think it is the somewhat understated laid-back style that creates that impression. Stats wise he is one of those to cover the most distance and make the most forward passes. Because of his style the things that he does well don’t register as much as the things when he messes up as those inevitably appear as a result of lack of effort whereas they are typical mistakes made even at the highest level. I know you don’t like stats but do take a look at his numbers for us, it is top level.
But yes, he can get even better. I think he is still a little goal shy and he should and can bring in more directness to his game in that respect.
I don’t mind stats if they’re “Theo Walcott – Five starts. Five wins” 😉
I get what you’re saying and I know it’s not really a very intelligent way to judge a footballer, but I want him to do things that make my pants moist, rather than to stroke my chin in mild admiration.
And on that bombshell, it’s bed time.
We were magnificent tonight but until we start to approach these knock out games with a different mindset we will continue to come up short. And that goes for the supporters as well as the team. Far to often us fans lose patience and demand a quicker turnover of the ball and we must be the most easily frustrated supporters on the planet, keep us out for the 1st 35 minutes and the moaning starts. At this level you are very unlikely to win the tie in the 1st game but you can sure as hell throw the fucker away and lets face it, that is exactly what we have done this year. Monaco are a very average side at this level and you cannot get away from the fact that we should be putting teams like that away over 180+ minutes of football. Still, there are definitely positives. We are very close to being a top notch side and we have proven time and again that we can beat anybody on our day. Another good summer transfer window and we`ll be laying down a sustained title challenge next year. Its essential for us to finish top 4 this season and that wont be easy either. It will be a real physical(and mental) challenge for the players to go again up at Newcastle on Saturday and I have a feeling that we will have to keep a clean sheet to win that game. I couldnt agree more with Thundertinygooner about some of our supporters, Wenger is a victim of his own success in that regard. He has developed this club to such an extent that we have attracted a huge following but unfortunately there is a lot of shit amongst it. No doubt Wenger`s tactics tonight will be called into question by elements of this shit and the old chestnut about his substitutions will be trotted out but he got every single one of them spot on today and the timing of them was great as well. Anyway, onwards and upwards.
Johnno @ 16: One of the surest signs of greatness is the ability to gracefully handle the unfair criticism that inevitably comes its way. Arsene is a great manager.
I thought his starting line-up and subs were very astute as well, and of course we know nothing of the conditions of individual players. This is a team on the verge of something spectacular and a bit more tuning this summer and a good pre-season and CL next year may not be as far-fetched as it appears now.
11 more (hopefully) games to go, and the team is well capable of winning each of them.
Hopefully the Sunderland home game won’t be rescheduled mid-week before the Cup semi.
Sad, but hardly unexpected. Not starting with our best attacking players (Rambo and Theo) may have cost us, but we gave it a fair shake.
Disappointed, as always, with the lack of end product from the otherwise admirable Danny, and some day a player with Özil’s pedigree will actually score a goal in a must-win game like this – as well as play a key role in sustaining pressure for 90+ minutes.
I was surprised to see Alexis still on at the end. He had another ordinary game (by his standards) and went close to a second yellow (not that the first should have been given). Danny looked more dangerous most of the game and could have stayed on longer.
Theo getting just 20 minutes and no room to move with the game was squeezed into their final third was also a waste of his attacking pace.
Full tilt to the Cup now. And without midweek CL games we should manage Top 2, 3 or 4 comfortably enough. Let’s make it 2 and have a few people eating humble pie.
Öskar
Fine report Guvna. Sadgooner here but proud of the response tonight. A bit of luck and we would be through imho.
Word Oskar, in that last paragraph.
However, it remains a concern that this feels like groundhog day.
We must demonstrate a capacity to learn these lessons.
To do list:
1) Qualify for next season’s UCL
2) Win FA Cup
3) Re-inforce to mount a real challenge for the league and big ears next season.
Re. 16. Yeah, I would agree with most of that DF. I particularly agree with your views on Wenger. We dont realize how lucky we are to have him as our manager. This will become abundantly clear to everybody in 10-15 years time, even those who are mentally challenged. Anyway, I hope you are right about our remaining 11 games but to be honest mate, I cant see us going on that sort of run. There was a lot of heavy legs out there last night and they`ll do well to maintain that level of performance to the end of the season. I never really expected to challenge for the league this year anyway. Weve had 2 years of solid investment and a blind man can see that we are improving but we are up against clubs who have been investing a whole lot more than that for a whole lot longer. It was always going to take more than 2 summer transfer windows to narrow that gap. You make a good point about pre season, the importance of which is often overlooked. If we can also sign 1 or 2 top notchers and do a bit of the fine tuning you talk of then I think we`ll be well equipped to have a right go at the title next year. For now, I think we just need to consolidate a top 4 slot and try and retain our Cup. I would have more than settled for that at the start of the season.
Re. 17 that should be. Fucken replying to myself now. Its been a long fucken day and I`m off to bed.
A very, very distant dream.
Nearing fifty, full of nicotine and booze.
How long do I have to wait?
“I’m goin’ straight to hell
Ain’t nothin’ slowin’ me down
An’ I’m goin’ straight to hell
So you just better get me one more round.”
Patience now, SSY. 🙂
Dr F@17: This is a team on the verge of something spectacular and a bit more tuning this summer and a good pre-season and CL next year may not be as far-fetched as it appears now. So true and has been for so many seasons now.
Interesting thought @13 about Sanogo. You are not wrong that a bit of sand in the oyster at the right time can make a difference. In that vein, surprised not to have seen Akpom at least on the bench. Ill or injured?
Looking ahead to the Premiership run-in, this post-match comment from AW is a bit worrying: I felt that some players were a bit jaded offensively because we have given a lot on Saturday and in the second half lacked a bit of freshness to finish the game off.
We have been very effective towards the end of the season for the last few years. The team gave everything and Sanchez is clearly knackered and should give way to Theo in the starting eleven for Newcastle. Rosicky would gave been very useful against Monaco but it was a glorious effort after the huge cock up of the first leg. I still can’t ubderstand BFG saying that the team were not mentally ready for a Champions League last 16 game. Monaco were also not worthy winners overall. They had no clue how to play that leg, they had no shots on target and the manager seems a prat from his after match comments. I usually wish our conquerors well but I hope this lot get mashed. How on earth we lost 3-1 to them is a complete mystery after seeing what we are capable of doing to them. Their vaunted defence didn’t look do vaunted tonight.
I think we have a chance of second place but CL qualification will be a titanic struggle. It’s good that United and Liverpool meet this week but we must win at Newcastle, which we normally do
Monaco will go out in the next round whoever they draw, TTG. That is one very ordinary outfit. A lucky deflection and two pieces of poor goalkeeping in the first round and ‘hey presto’. Won’t happen again for them.
Maybe the secret is to get Real Madrid or Barcelona every year in the KO stage.
As for their manager, I’ve not read his comments and have no wish to, but whatever they are it doesn’t matter. He’s reached his peak at Monaco, the utter nobody. 🙂
Mertesacker bothers me though. If HE’s not mentally ready for a last 16 game it doesn’t follow that everybody else is lacking the gumption. I like him, but would prefer to hear a lot less from him. I know he is captain but please… shut up.
A terrible shame.
There’s very little else to say about last night’s game.
However, on other matters…
i) The first leg performance was lamentable, woeful, dreadful and probably a few other things I can’t immediately call to mind. I imagine that everyone got all of that off their chests at the time. Now is not the time to rehash the arguments that were brought up then. Last night was another match; argue about that one.
ii) Please can we have the real ttg back? The current incarnation hasn’t managed to write anything I disagree with for ages.
Newcastle next,
COYG
Fair play to them for getting that close but sadly, has been the case year after year now, a truly appalling performance in the first leg made the task just that bit too hard to achieve.
Mertesacker’s comments about having trouble focusing at the Ems are bizarre. The quality is pretty much there but until the psychological side of their game becomes tighter they will continue to freeze at the worst moments.
If I was in charge I’d have a temple built at London Colney and start every day with 15 minutes of meditation!
Onwards reds.
Traffic problems getting out of Monaco and the motorway closed at Nice meant that I got back home after 2 am.So no report fresh from getting back from the match and also a day off work today as no way was I getting up at 5am this morning.
I left home in the the mid afternoon and met up with some english friends (pre arranged) at a service station before Nice.Parked up in Monaco,met up with a groundsman from Stade Louis 2 who was an ex employee of one of my mates.He gave us a quick tourist guide(where the formula 1 course goes,they are already in preparation building stands etc. and the race isn`t until the merry month of May) but we were more interrested in finding a bar pre match.Yeah no problem “follow me” he said”I know all the bars”.Unfortunately he didn`t know that there was an alcohol ban pre match.We tried many bars and restaurants until the english sniffed out a sandwich bar where we could get beer.So we settled down to pre match victuals and rituals.
So time to go to the stadium(the sandwich bar was out of beer)Separated from my mates who were seated elsewhere I entered the stadium to go and meet up with my french mates,climbed up the stairs but before entering the seated area everybody was questioned by security .Because I had an English accent I was not allowed to proceed as this area was the bastion of the feared Monaco ultras.”Go down and out the turnstiles and walk to the Arsenal end ,they will let you in” I was told.I was a little bit doubtful as I went down the stairs especially when the turnstile operater said “if you go out, you can`t come back in”.So U turn and back up the stairs where I met a group of Gooners being escorted by the CRS police to the AFC end.The CRS were done up to the nines in helmets , corrugated armour and agressive attitudes .I joined this convoy nonetheless.They guarded and herded us round the back of the stadium.We were going to be taken to join the Arsenal fans or be kept in a holding pen for the duration of the match.Fortunately it was the first option.
We missed the first couple of minutes,but never mind.The match experience is much better when you are with your own,as Tabs,Bath and TS can corroberate from their recent Old Trafford experience.
It was a funny atmosphere ,some fans wanting to go at them from the off or my view was patience ,look what being rash did to us in the home fixture.It was strange to be in such a small stadium .We were behind the goal we attacked in the first half.When the ball came back to Giroud ,with a look of surprise,he nearly shrugged his shoulders before knocking the ball into the back of the net.A couple of handball shouts and then what looked to me as a cast iron penalty led to Santi getting booked for simulation.
The second half was frustrating as most of the play was at the other end except for when the Monaco forwards and midfield came charging forward to nearly capitalise on our attacking instincts.Ramsey scores a second goal but unfortunately we had left too much to do from the 1st leg.One final push and 5 minutes of extra time was not enough to see us through.
Anyhow theres always another cup to fight for and another champions league campaign next year.
Thought we were great last night and couldn’t ask for more. Just hope that we’ve left enough in our legs to deal with what is a very, very important game this weekend. It would be typical of the Arsenal sides of the last few years to gas ourselves chasing a lost cause and then cock up a tricky away game a few days later.
Monaco can cock off, far too chatty for my liking. Come back and talk once you’ve paid your taxes and can fill your poxy stadium.
Onwards and upwards – team looks very good right now.
COYG
Pangloss
You guessed the old TTG is in a laundry basket in the loft and I’m taking his place. Will try to keep up the good work. Back to the cell now don’t want you put in solitary and unable to contact us
I must say that I feel very frustrated after last night. I am guessing that I am not the only one that had a horrible feeling that we would come away with a two nil victory before the match even started?
The tie was lost after a limp, lame and pathetic display at The Grove. Yet again a few moments of madness have cost us dear. I really do wonder as and when we will ever learn. Sometimes we are genuinely naïve in the extreme.
Last night was another brave failure. The stats show that we dominated the game and deserved the result. But we have played many games where we have dominated the stats figures but in the end it has not quite been enough. The last ten minutes or so summed up the night for me. We went back to playing handball football. Lots and lots of passes all around the outside of the box followed by bizarre attempts to try and break through the middle which invariably was like trying to walk through a brick wall. I do not know what we did not try and stretch the play and get behind the defenders. The resulting to hitting aimless balls into the middle and hoping that Ollie G gets something on it is more out of desperation for me.
There has been a lot of criticism on here of Theo recently. He divides opinion like virtually no other. Love him or hate him he is still one of the few genuine match winners that we have. Let’s not kid ourselves, we are not bursting at the seams with them are we? The facts that some have suggested Sanago for this game I would suggest bears testimony to that fact. Theo can frustrate and delight in equal amounts. What did he do last night I was asked? Well he hit the post which subsequently in our second. He got himself in a position where he could have scored two at the weekend. Personally I would like to have seen him play a lot more before last night. He might then have regained the confidence and sharpness that he and we both need.
I agree totally that Alexis looks knackered. Send him on holiday now. If he misses a couple of games but then comes back fully refreshed then I would suggest that is a small price to pay. Especially when you consider how limited we are with resources up front.
Onwards and upwards. Time to lick our wounds, reflect and then put it straight to bed. There is another massive game at the weekend that we need to win.
For those that have made the trip, safe journey home. You need to hurry up back though, semi final tickets are on sale tomorrow morning. Another Wembley trip???? Very naïve in the Champions league but it’s not all doom and gloom is it?
Top report H.
Up the Gunners.
That Monaco side will get a shoeing yet from one of the bigger teams.
Most interesting thing last night was Wengers post match comments when he mentioned the 5 clear cut chances we missed in the first half alone. It goes to show where his mindset is. And while we are all too familiar with our defensive shortcomings and the complacency in how we approached the first tie, I think our collective lack of efficiency in front of goal has been the real story of this tie overall. To say that we only scored 1 goal at the Ems was frankly even more embarrassing than the 3 goals we conceded. And again last night, we had chances to win this tie but we never took them.
It seems to me that when you come into the realm of CL football, you need a very sharp cutting edge up front to make the most of the chances that come your way. Otherwise your going nowhere.
Thanks for a really good report H.
Loads of excellent posting above and from the last bar. I was sufficiently unhappy and still full of Guinness when I woke up today that I did wonder about the old ‘media lockdown.’ Instead I wandered in here and I am glad I did. Context and comfort from some top gooners are working their magic this morning. Well, those and a gallon of black coffee.
We were good last night. I was happy with tactics, team and approach. I watched the match with an unusual calm- I knew I would not be too down if we did not go through after the first leg but I felt like how I imagine Manure fans used to feel- I just felt all the way to the last whistle that the winning goal was coming.
Oh well. Now to make a start on Baff’s to-do list.
Victoria Concordia Crescit.
Great report, Holic, on a great performance.
If only the first leg performance had come anywhere close to last night, we would be through this morning.
It is sad and frustrating but it is over. We have a cup and second place to fight for. With another good summer in the transfer market, I really think we should be capable of a genuine double challenge next season for the Premier League and Champions League.
We do have to sort out this mental issue though, whether it be fear or complacency. Away wins against ManCity, ManUre and Monaco should go some way.
A huge pity we are out but our own fault.
Still have Steve T, washed up and others to read.
Interesting report washed up. Slightly scary having to join a bunch of Gooners being escorted by the French Gestapo. Glad you survived.
Interesting stuff washed up. Thank you.
I have now had a chance to back drink here and the previous post. At times we seemed to all be resigned to being stuck in the same rut. The 4th is a trophy mantra I have never liked. For me that comes back to haunt us time and time again. This tie was a prime example. Finishing second in the group always makes it that bit tougher. However, this year we would have struggled to ask for a better draw. Yet, we still blow it. We fail to qualify against a side that would struggle to finish in the top half of the Premiership.
I often look at the Champions League in a different light these days as far as we are concerned. It’s beyond bring vitally important to qualify for it these days. More often or not in recent years our league position means we have had to play a qualifier at the most inconvenient time of the season to enable us to play games against sides that would rarely raise an eyebrow. Then, as the last 5 years have shown, we go into battle with sides that we seem I’ll equipped to deal with.
The Champions League is the top club competition in football. As a result it’s extremely lucrative. But until we decide to do battle with such lofty opponents on our terms then it will remain as elusive as it always has.
You look at the bench last night and wonder where the game changers are? Where is the quality option that might just make the difference?
In my opinion, if we want to progress as a club then we should be beating sides like Monaco convincingly. We should not be sitting back and thinking, oh well, maybe next year. Or do we just accept that the Champions League is just a way of adding more noughts to the club’s bank balance????
Just a thought.
Naval-gazing alert- you have been warned.
When you lose to Barca or Bayern it is easy to adopt the attitude that says ‘they are a great side- what more could we have done?.’ This clouds the issue a little and can stop rigorous analysis of what the club and players actually COULD have done to win the tie.
I hope this result hurts our players a lot. But I also hope that they realise that making some more signings in the summer, or having a year’s extra experience playing together, or having a new physio or a new kit or whatever the hell else will not be the defining factor in whether we move past this European block. It will be the attitude of the players.
They are a great bunch but they need to take responsibility for winning these games. They need a collective bloody-mindedness. An understanding that when playing their best game they are a team to frighten any team in the world. And the confidence to know that if they all do their jobs and maintain their discipline that will be enough to win matches. They do not really believe enough that the basics are good enough to win- so they go for something more, something eye-catching and spectacular, and pay the inevitable price. They do not need to be spectacular to beat Monaco or anyone else (we were not spectacular when we beat Bayern 2-0 at their place.) If they maintain structure and composure they will provide a platform to be spectacular and successful but without all the effort. Our best sides always made brilliance look so easy. This lot try so hard to be brilliant that some days they make the basics look like bloody hard work.
They play these games hoping to show how good they can be. They need to turn that hope into a confidence that they WILL show how good they can be- because they all know their jobs and are ready to do them for the team. They push too hard because they think they need to to win at this level. They do not- they need to have faith in each other and play their game.
Bayern have been wonderful in the last few years. Because they have a structure and discipline which provides a foundation for them to build wonders upon. We have the wonders. We need to focus on the foundation.
Wenger will never do the work for this team. But if they do what he hopes they will and grasp this idea and take responsibility for themselves it is a far more powerful lesson than one simply poured in their ears. There has been talk in here recently about the Invincibles and how they fought for each other and the collective desire and will they had. All true. But where did that come from?
A manager’s ultimate goal (in any field) is to make themselves obsolete- to build a machine that runs so smoothly and that has such perfectly adapted parts that it is self-sustaining and needs no management. The greatest club side in England for the last 15 years could have had my sister in the dugout and they would still have gone the season unbeaten. That is the true genius of what Wenger achieved. No-one else ever has.
Chelsea at their best were still reliant on Mourinho as their figurehead. SAF was the force behind all Manure’s top teams. Wenger is the only manager I have ever seen who would actively prefer less credit and less involvement because his team have taken on the responsibility for themselves. He wants to stand over the finish line and call his team home, not stand behind them and push them there. It is far harder to achieve but the results are far more permanent.
This defeat could be just what our current lot need in the long run. Nowhere to hide. Look at yourselves lads. You have everything you need to be the best. Apart from the sheer willpower to make it happen. Gandhi once said “strength does not come from a physical capacity- it comes from an indomitable will.” And he knew a thing or two about not accepting things he deemed unacceptable and not compromising his beliefs no matter what stood against him. This lot need to stand up for themselves, refuse to be beaten, refuse to be anything less than the best side in the world. They have the physical capacity already. I am with Wenger in believing that they can find that indomitable will.
We are close. I do not think we need lots of changes to achieve our goals- just one last hurdle in the collective mind of this team to get over and then the sky is the limit. I really am a hopeless believer.
UTA.
“All right, Stan, how are things?”
“Oh ya know… ticking along”
That’s it in a nutshell and in many ways I am glad of it. Rather be ticking along without it being a tick-tick-boom, like at so many other clubs.
Does anyone really go into a season expecting to win the CL? I never have done.
The mistake yesterday was the substitution AW made. I know Alex is a game changer. But he was having an in between game when he to be great. He should have come off for Theo instead of Danny. Alex was on a yellow also. Alex was also slowing down the Attack in the final third. Sometimes the simple early pass is what is needed in the final third instead of trying to dribble past players with tricks and deceptive foot work. Another very late substitution mistake was Montreal. I would have taken out Bellerin. His delivery tonight was poor. I would have brought in Chambers at that point in the game. His delivery is far better that Bellerin at this point in their careers. For his lack of speed he is good on the ball and delivery.
Danny was having an awesome game and I do believe he would have got us the winner if he had stayed on the field. By far he was the best attacking player yesterday. I am so disappointed. I just hope the players can pick themselves up and finish the season on a higher note. Who knows if we win all our remaining games, we might just put our selves in a great position to do the double. Then we might just forget the disappointment of this night.
Great post @41, GSD.
It’s difficult to argue with the “complacency in the first leg” explanation since it comes from the mouth of the BFG himself. I like to think that his English, perhaps, let him down a little.
The team I watched in the first leg (via Sky on a large screen at a skiing hotel, and with a Sp*d by my side) didn’t strike me as a team that was complacent, or even one that lacked the will to win. It seemed to me like a team that had forgotten that when you concede an unlucky goal to a massively-deflected shot early in the first of a two-leg match, you don’t need to panic.
Listening to last night’s match, and bearing in mind the collective wisdom that Sanchez, certainly, and Özil, probably, are somewhat off-form at present, it scares me slightly to think what the team will produce when there are sufficient players in the squad that we can put out a balanced eleven on-form players.
Don’t worry about Monaco; it’s gone. Time to look forward to Newcastle.
COYG
GSD, resonate completely with your statement in 41:
“This lot try so hard to be brilliant that some days they make the basics look like bloody hard work.”
And, recently, we can apply that to Alexis. While he makes the Arsenal much more dangerous with his non-stop effort, it also must be bloody hard at times for his mates to play alongside the Energizer Bunny. Early on this season, when the squad was out of form, injured, and/or inexperienced in certain positions, he singlehandedly kept the side from slipping into mid-table doom. But hereon, with more forward options available, and with an eye to the run-in and, yes, to next season, it’s time for AW to get Alexis to channel his strengths to improve the team’s overall performance.
And maybe I wouldn’t be typing this if OG hadn’t inadvertently gotten in the way of a game-winning Alexis header (sigh)….
GSD your post is on the money, attitude is everything: 9 times out of 10 the change you need doesn’t come from outside, it is a shift in thinking and belief systems. If one single player in the first leg allowed themselves to think ‘Ah, Monaco – the easiest draw of the last 16!’the battle is half lost before they’ve taken the field.
My point about meditation was completely serious. We’ve seen clear proof in the past few years that Arsenal have lacked two vital components of success, belief and resilience (not absolutely lacked, I’ll add, just at certain junctures). For me this almost always comes down to the modern ignorance of your most valuable asset: the mind. Preparedness starts there, but your limitations also exist there. That’s what this lot need to work on.
I thought we were god-awful in the first leg – one of the worst performances in years – but we did great last night. The time for doom and gloom was a fortnight ago, I can’t fault the effort and ability shown in the second leg.
Time will tell whether that first leg performance was an aberration, a night when the ball just wouldn’t go in, or continues to be the type of horror show we maintain in our locker and will bring out from time to time. It was a horribly familiar, but we have to finally learn our lesson one day.
I don’t, however, accept that we are standing still or failing to make progress. The squad is vastly stronger than it was two seasons ago, and is currently enjoying a run of domestic form good enough for a title push. We have greater strength in depth than previously (albeit not much more luck with injuries). We are signing quality, established players every summer. We are winning tough away games where before we did not. We won a major trophy last season and we may yet retain it this term. We are in with a decent shout of finishing second in the league, which would represent our highest placing in a decade.
Not everything is rosy, by any means, but there have been clear signs of progress over the last 24 months.
Crashing out of Europe at the same stage, yet again, is of course frustrating, particularly given the manner in which we shot ourselves in the foot, but it isn’t the only available gauge of our overall performance.
On that note, the most important game for us this week is Newcastle at the weekend. The Champs League tie was always a hail mary once we’d shipped that third goal at home, but the real tragedy would be for us to take our eye off the league. Fixtures after champs league ties are always tough, doubly so when we’re away. We simply must win this game.
COYG
Regarding Welbeck, he had a great game yesterday, but he was clearly blowing out of his arse for a good 5-10 mins before he was withdrawn. Got through a ton of work.
Alexis had a difficult evening, although never stopped trying, and I thought he might have been subbed, but I guess if you’re desperately chasing two more goals in a tough away ground in a knockout game it’s probably quite a difficult decision to remove your top scorer and main goal threat.
N7 I’m with you all the way. This is the one occasion we could have done with a late Sunday Kick-off. The Newcastle match is a must win game and I am concerned that we gave so much both physically and mentally last night that we will be short on Saturday.
Alexis is a spent force emotionally, he still thinks he can win games single handed and badly needs a break. Is TR7 fit, rotation not to upset the balance of the team is on the cards. Let’s hope the disappointment of not qualifying does not hamper our performance on Tyne Side, fingers crossed.
COYRs
Lovely stuff Maestro.
What BtM said @ #3 and what a contrast in emotion from last Monday’s trip home from The Old Toilet.
All focus now turns to Newcastle. UTA!
N7 @ 47: “I don’t, however, accept that we are standing still or failing to make progress. ”
Me neither. A look at our benches in any PL game compared to what used to be just a couple of years back would confirm that.
The problem with this season is we started poorly because of lack of pre-season — it is an absolutely vital aspect for Arsene-ball, he never won the league after a WC — and a pile up of injuries. He predicted once the majority of the wounded is back and they have a chance to build a rapport we will go on a run. And we did.
We won the cup last year. We are on our best domestic home win run in ten years. We beat ManU away at OT for the first time in nine years. We won against the league winners away at their place (the accusation of not being able to handle great teams away thus no longer relevant), and we have a very good shout at retaining the FA Cup.
That is an upward curve. And unsurprisingly so, because Arsene can now bring in quality players.
And when people compare players they often tend to undervalue what we have compared to their counterparts. Giroud now has more CL goals this season from 2 matches than the Uber-Striker Costa who scored no goals in that competition playing all matches. Giroud has 15 goals in 25 matches compared to Costa’s 18 in 33 matches. Coquelin has one of the highest tackles and interceptions rates in PL. Santi has consistently put on some of the best CM performances in Europe. In the first half of the season Alexis was by far the best player in PL. Since his return Ozil dominates Cesc or Silva in chance creation stats. In Bellerin we have undoubtedly the breakthrough of the season in PL ….
Proco @ 46: I am fully with you about the values of mindfulness in top level sports, especially football which had become so fiercely competitive and given the heightened background noise that drowns our thought in today’s world. Whether it is meditation – I myself am a practitioner but try not to preach about its benefits – or some other psychological tools our match preparations sometimes evidently lack the aspect of clarity of mind.
Totally agree with all of that Doc.
And the one before.
And N7 @47.
And with Porco.
Aach, screw it- you all know what you are talking about. If anyone wants a virtual drink I’m leaving them behind the bar.
The only way is up then!
😀
…or, in the case of the virtual drink, down.
Cheers GSD
Couldn’t agree more pangloss @41. No sign of complacency there just blind panic.
One of the summer purchases has to be that calm-headed, dominant, leadership quality blessed holding midfielder who will let no-one past but with such refinement that he will accrue few yellows and no reds and who will chip in with the occasional assist and occasional spectacular goal.
Now where did I last see one of those? 🙂
You are most welcome Pangloss. It, quite literally, cost me nothing. Wink.
I am rather unusually not concerned by the league this year. I think we will finish 3rd at worst. Man U will fall away due to tough fixtures still to come. Liverpool are doing well and worth keeping an eye on. City in free-fall. Spuds are spuds.
And we are tough to beat at the business end of the league season. All good. Newcastle is obviously very important to focus on and win. But we have done well in similar matches in the past and I think we will show some much needed guts when it matters this weekend.
And we are in a great FA cup position.
So if we were to achieve 3rd in league (no Champs League qualifier) and an FA cup win I would be thrilled. And think N7’s long-standing belief about next year may or may not prove right. But I would certainly be willing to put good money on it coming off.
I would like to see us challenge more because I think we are good enough to. Which is, frankly, amazing given the climate of European football as it stands today. I really feel wholesale change is unnecessary but that small tweaks in mentality and approach would make a big difference.
Sometimes I feel like we are a damn in the river of our own success. To get to where we need to be we don’t need to change the river’s course. We just need to get the hell out of our own way.
GSD @41 – that was a fantastic post… Wengeresque almost…
Tomorrow’s papers and the Sundays will tear into Arsenal having given Chelsea who played 90 minutes at home against 10 men an easy ride last week,. Liverpool were let off from not even qualifying and then going out of the Europa League against a side we eliminated from the CL and I suspect the Citeh comment will be about how much their new manager will have to spend.
Notwithstanding the awful performance at home against Monaco and an indifferent performance against Dortmund we qualified easily as we always seem to . We should have progressed this year and we can do better but we seem to be judged more harshly than any other English sides. Possibly there is a feeling we are wasting a space for an English team but that’s hardly the case when they struggle as ours did this year. Arguably we did better than any of the others this year. Possibly, and this seems more likely there is envy at the consistency we have shown in qualifying.
I agree with the general sentiment in this bar that we have a rapidly improving squad . With the right strengthening I think we really could mount a better challenge for the title next year and a better challenge for the CL. Like Cynic said I don’t expect to win the CL each year but we can dream….! I also agree with GSD that we will finish at least third. I don’t see Chelsea collapsing although it would be wonderful if they did, but if they do I suspect we would have as good a chance as anyone of catching them.
We need to ensure this squad stays together and that is Wenger’s priority although a DM wouldn’t come amiss. Strangely I feel happier after last night than I expected to be because we couldn’t have done much better . I just hope the good sense shown in this bar permeates through the Grove in the same way. Sadly having experienced some of our current fan base I am more dubious about this!
I see Chelsea are crying that they’ve had an “abnormally low” number of penalties this season. Funnily enough, it seems the more diving cunts a team has, the fewer its number of penalties.
Agreed, ttg.
It’s been said before but the possibility of Liverpool, Tottenham and, more genuinely, Southampton or any other team breaking into the Champions League places is seen as a tremendous achievement.
Where Arsenal is concerned, qualification has happened so often it is completely overlooked, other than to be mocked as a pseudo trophy.
The fact that we have qualified for the competition, qualified consistently from the group stage and even made a final, in most years with little or no money, is derided as a waste of effort because we haven’t actually won it.
A bit bewildering to me but media admiration only seems to grow in direct proportion to the amount of money a team is able to throw at buying success.
Ttg@59: not a word to disagree with.
Citeh have now failed to progress past the last 16 in all four of their last four efforts, despite the quadrillions thrown at buying the team. Not much by way of ‘same old City’ commentary in the press, though.
*Pays no mind to the toilet water mouthed bus stop dwellers.*
Oh dear. It didn’t take me long to end up in a minority of one again did it?
Some interesting posts above. Some of which I agree with, some of which I don’t.
Progress is an interesting yard stick. Have we made progress over the last two seasons? Yes we have. This includes new signings as well as clearing out a lot of the dead wood. Have we made progress from five or ten years ago? I don’t think we have. But we have built a new stadium we all cry? Yes we have. But I have yet to see any figures that convince me that we have not had the funds to deal with the issues. Nor have I seen anything that has convinced me that we needed to sell any of our prize assets.
We have of course won an FA Cup and are well placed this season to retain the trophy. However, before we judge our league form let’s just compare the standards to only a few years ago. For me the Premier League is nowhere near the quality it used to be. That can be evidenced by the progress made of Premier League sides in the Champions League. For the second season in three years there is no Premier League side in the last 16. Cynic asked if anyone really goes into a season expecting us to win the Champions League? There have been times in recent years that I have not been confident of getting out of the group. Ten years or so ago I would say that yes, I did have genuine hope that we could make a serious challenge for the Champions League.
So, Newcastle at the weekend. I see no reason why we can not go there and get a convincing victory. But we have been consistently inconsistent this season. There has been more than one occasion when I have gone to games and have not known what Arsenal team I am going to be treated to.
We are in a good run of form but I would suggest that a top four position is hardly nailed on. We need to continue in this run of form for the rest of the season. We have nine games remaining. Three of these are against Liverpool, The Mancs and CSKA Fulham. We will need to continue to be on top form until the end of May to ensure a top four finish. Can we do it? Of course we can. But now is not the time for a lapse of concentration or for any complacency.
Drinks on the bar for one and all.
Steve. It doesn’t sound like you are in a minority of one to me. That is, I agree with almost everything you said.
You’re not alone, Steve. Especially with regard to your Theo and Alexis comments earlier. You can add Cynic and I to the list of those who believe Theo should have been given much more opportunity to regain his confidence before games like yesterday, when not only did we have to win but we had to score more goals than we have regularly been doing this season. They were never going to come from players like Danny who hasn’t even scored in the PL this year, or Özil who seems to believe it’s someone else’s job, or even Alexis whose scoring has dried up along with his drop in form.
Leaving it all to OG while two of our most likely scorers, Rambo and Theo, watch from the bench was tactically poor, imo.
Öskar
Three of our remaining games may be against Chavs, ManCs and Poo, Steve but six of them aren’t. And two of those three are at home. It’s an ‘easier’ run-in than practically any other Top 4 aspirant.
Öskar
Newcastle away not being one of the ‘easier’ fixtures, I would add Oskar. Points to be grabbed onto with everything we’ve got.
Oskar — I agree with you a fully fit and firing Theo could be a genuine goal-threat, albeit more so against teams that do not defend deep and in numbers but play a high defensive lines, but aren’t you overstating his case just a tad bit?
Consider these records:
12-13 away at Bayern, Arsenal needs to overturn a 1-3 deficit, Theo starts and assists but doesn’t score any goals. Arsenal wins 2-0 thanks to Giroud and Kos. Theo gets substituted.
11-12 home against AC Milan, Arsenal needs to overturn a 4-0 deficit. Arsenal scores three first half goals. Kos the boss, evergreen TR7, RVP from the spot following a brilliant solo run by Ox. We have the whole of the second half to score at least one more. Theo scores none and gets replaced by…Park!
09-10 away at Barca, we go there poised at 2-2, and get messed up by Messi. However we manage to score a goal (we open the scoring, actually) by Bendy. Theo plays 90 minutes but no goals. (In the home leg of this round Theo did play one of his better games in CL, scoring a generally frightening the Barca high-line with his pace).
So, an useful player, capable of scoring goals when at his sharpest, but hardly the single-handed match winner to whose fitness and form the entire team needs to prepare to. He didn’t get that many chances in the previous matches not because Arsene has suddenly stopped liking a player whom he essentially molded since he was a teen-ager, but because other options were more likely to get us a result as they provided better balance. Ox may have not scored a goal against ManU but he was instrumental in our win, that first goal doesn’t happen if it were not for him.
Resting Rambo was most likely to do with not risking him three 90 minutes matches in a week after his return, and given that our likelier measures of success (FA Cup and PL top 3-4) this season would benefit from his typically energetic contributions towards the end of the season.
…contd.
Furthermore, whereas I agree with you that Danny is not a natural instinctive goalscorer as Theo has become (Theo’s finishing used to be very inconsistent too), their scoring records are strangely similar.
Danny (Man U, Sunderland, Arsenal, excluding Preston): 199 appearances and 43 goals. 7 goals in 27 European appearances. [Stats collected from soccerbase]
Theo: 72 goals in 294 appearances. 12 goals in 55 European appearances. [As per Arsenal web-site]
Sluralex used to choose Danny in tough European matches too for the combination of work-rate and tactical discipline. I thought he had one of his better matches for us against Monaco.
No-one is suggesting Theo is a ‘single-handed match winner’, Dr F. But he is a match-winner on his day, regardless occasions when he hasn’t been, and far more likely to score than the current crop of alternatives.
In any case Steve’s argument was that Theo should have been afforded more game time earlier in order to BE the match-winner he can be on days such as this one. Trusting others with proven poor CURRENT goal-scoring qualifications to do the job doesn’t look too clever to me (and now others, apparently).
As for resting Rambo for contributions towards the end of the season, oh puhleeze, the CL is THE trophy AW wants most to win and he played what he believed was his best team. Otherwise he would surely have rested Alexis whom everyone keeps saying is badly in need of a rest.
And I’m not saying he was wrong. If he’d played my chosen XI we might have lost the game for all I know. In fact I’m sure AW knows his players far better than I do. But what would be the point of this forum if we all agreed with everything Le Boss does?
Öskar
Danny did indeed have one of his better games, Dr F. As far as running around harassing the enemy was concerned. But he also managed to stuff several excellent chances to deliver assists or score himself, chiefly through an inability to control the ball when it mattered. And this when the game was far more open than it was in the last 20 minutes when play was squeezed almost exclusively into the last third of the pitch allowing very little room for our strikers, and no opportunities to use pace to get behind the defence.
Öskar
Just my opinion of course, but I believe AW has a blind spot when it comes to players he’s invested heavily in. It’s why, imo, Özil rarely if ever gets substituted. He is, to AW, the ultimate player and he’ll be damned if he’ll listen to criticisms of him. And he also believes that he (AW) can succeed where Sralex had failed – in turning Welbeck into a striker. All Danny needs is enough opportunities to show what a better judge of a player he is than Sralex. And boy has he had every opportunity, on the wing (where his speed and tenacity are useful) and leading the attack (where he is utterly wasted).
Wenger bought the lad convinced he’d make a brilliant through the middle striker. He isn’t. A striker of any kind that is.
Öskar
I was under the impression that Arsene bought Welbeck around 1/9, a week after Giroud injured himself against Everton and was ruled out for some considerable time. I’m not sure that Arsene necessarily thought that Danny would be a “brilliant through the middle striker” but he must surely have thought that he’d be a better replacement option than Sanogo whose prior outings had suggested that he couldn’t hit a cow’s arse with a banjo and, as Steve T liked to point out, his first touch to control usually ended up as a pass.
Personally, I’ve been pretty happy generally with Webeck and think he will also get better.
I agree that the press generally gives us a much harder time than others so it was ironic that Barney Ronan in the Guardian, who I usually dislike, seems to be more positive today.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/mar/18/arsenal-arsene-wenger-champions-
UTA.l
@69, just a little factual detail always trumps rhetoric and hot air 🙂
@Steve
For what it’s worth, I agree that the run in may prove tougher than people think. We have some tricky games left, no team just keeps winning forever and the Red Mancs are proving hard to shake off. We do not want to be going to their place needing anything.
Regarding the comparison to 2005, it’s not a particularly fair barometer of “progress”. Most of the Invincibles were still in situ, so it’s basically comparing the current side to the greatest team this club has ever had – of course they don’t match up. Reaching those heights is the intended final destination, if anything, but we are certainly a better squad than at any time in the previous three or four years. Rome wasn’t built in a day and we quite clearly turned some sort of corner circa 2013.
Likewise, it’s a little harsh to suggest that we should be judged differently because the quality of the league is lower. On that basis we could win the title and there would still be a legitimate complaint that we’d regressed from a decade ago. If the league has gone backwards (and with two oil clubs and much better Liverpool and spurs sides I’m not entirely convinced it has) then there’s no reason we should be immune from whatever forces have caused it to do so.
Incidentally, in 2005 we went out at precisely the same stage of the champs league, finished second in the league and (with a bit of good fortune) won the cup. All achievements we may yet emulate this season – not saying we will, but nor can we be written off yet.
Anyway, it’s good to have you back in the bar, minority view or otherwise. Here’s to a much needed win over the barcodes, and dropped points all around us.
COYG
Trev@61: could not agree more about the different yardsticks used for us as compared to other teams. Yesterday I saw some stat saying no team has played more games in the CL without winning them than we have, and this was of course intended to show what a failure we are.
But think about that one for a while.
How many teams have even played as many games in total as those that we have drawn or lost in the CL? Is it even ten clubs? Barca and Real for sure and a few others but it isn’t many. In a list of the most CL games played in total, we must be very high up. Barca and Real are likely to be ahead and maybe two or three others. That stat from my first paragraph is simply nothing more than a reflection of where we are as a club (i.e. a club not quite at the top but still a better than almost all clubs), and I’d also wager that looking at the number of games won in total we’d be quite high up that list too simply because we have been in the tournament for so many years running and have gone past the group stage for some 15 years running.
That does of course not mean we can not improve. But like I have said many times, not realising how good you actually are and where you really stand is just as dangerous as believing you are better than you are.
And there is progress, like others have said.
Just look at the players we have bought in the last few years. We don’t buy Gervinho and Andre Santos and get Benayoun on loan on the last day of the transfer window anymore. Look at this matchday squad for the game where we beat West Brom to secure third ahead of Spurs in May 2012:
Woj
Jenkinson
Kos
Vermaelen
Santos
Rosicky
Gervinho
Song
Benayoun
Coquelin
RvP
Fabianski
Gibbs
Djourou
Walcott
Oxlade
Ramsey
Chamakh
(Btw, finishing third with that squad was, in hindsight, an amazing achievement)
Compare that to today, where players like Ramsey, Coq and the Ox have developed massively. Santos has been replaced with Monreal. Gervinho with Alexis. Chamakh with Giroud. Jenkinson with Bellerin. And I haven’t even mentioned Özil and Cazorla. Players like Walcott and Welbeck struggle to make the starting XI and even the bench at times.
Of course there is room for improvement, there always is even if you are winning everything. But at present, we are definitely moving in the right direction.
As for all PL teams going out early in the CL, that is of course a warning sign. But is it necessarily proof that the league has become worse? I am not at all convinced it is. If anything, I’d say it can just as easily point to the exact opposite. The poor teams of yesteryear have become much, much harder to beat these days. Even a few years ago, playing any team in the bottom half of the table was expected to be a routine win whether you played home or away. These days, ANY away game in the Premier League is a tricky task. Hell, even home games against bottom teams aren’t the bankers they used to be. City lost away to Burnley and drew v Leicester at home. Liverpool lost at West Ham and drew with Leicester at home, Chelsea dropped points at home to Burnley. Et cetera et cetera. Premier League teams simply have to work a lot harder in the domestic matches, likely leaving them less fresh for the CL knockout stage. I don’t think that’s the whole explanation, but I do believe it is part of it.
@69, just a little factual detail always trumps rhetoric and hot air
Such as only being able to go to Barcelona at 2-2 and having a chance after Walcott totally changed the home tie in the first place, you mean?
We could bat this back and forth all you like but it’s boring. Simple facts? Well one is that we look a far better side going forward with him in it (and Ramsey) than without. Theo is just a whipping boy these days.
I repeat a point made recently that we now seem to have a section of the fan base that thinks running far and working up a sweat is preferable to creating chances and scoring goals.
Nothing wrong with players who run a lot, if you’re happy to continually be plucky losers, I suppose.
Trev @ #61
…”the possibility of… T*ttenham… breaking into the Champions League places…”
Have you been playing in that medicine cabinet again? 🙂
Lars / Trev,
Excellent posts.
In relation to English teams failing in the CL, the very same point was taken up last night by Liam Brady on RTE and in some respects, he says exactly what you’ve been saying Lars in that the PL is, if anything, more competitive than ever. However he did make one point which I thought was very salient: he still maintains that there is a fundamental difference in terms of technique. He said that the difference between Chelsea v PSG was one of technique where PSG were more comfortable passing the ball even with 10 men. He said we really “blew it” this year and our performance in the first leg was “unprofessional”.
I agree with the larger point in that we have made serious improvements this year as evidenced by how difficult it is now to make the team and there are still players to come back from injury. For me this year is a watershed is some respects because work ethic is now more and more a prerequisite to make this team. Of course, there is still more to come, but with a few more players this summer this team will have everything. I would repeat the point that Trev made earlier too, in that we really ought to be addressing our consistent injury problems by maybe sourcing players who can deliver 30 games per season. Who at the start of this season would have thought that Coquelin, Bellerin and Ospina would be regularly making the first team?
Lars @ #77. WORD. BT & Sky need pundits like you.
Glorious failure, so near yet so far, Arsenal and Arsene continue to be the same old same old. Well have read these and much more after the game and sadly it just feels the same. 5 times now that we have gone out like this and everytime we regret what we have done at home. The continued tirade against Ozil and co not with standing, Arsenal just do not seem to know the do how in the UCL. Arsene may just end up being our finest ever manager with the tag line of yet not having won the UCL ever.
I really do not want to talk about the game but i am worried about how much the game took out of our players. They looked knackered.
Saturday at St.James’s park will be a tough game against a newcastle team looking to bounce back from a beating they took last week against Everton. I hope Sanchez is rested and if need be even Ozil and have Santi, Ramsey and Rozza along with Coq in the midfield. Theo can have a full game finally and we can have Danny and Giroud along with him.
Gabriel back could mean a direct swap with Per and that should give our best chance of winning against the geordies. With united vs pool, a win on saturday should make sunday far better with either or both of those 2 teams dropping points.
Cynic,
I think in all fairness the points made by Faustus earlier put Theo’s “goal scoring record” into a proper context. You can’t honestly come to this bar and say that a lad like Theo hasn’t been given enough opportunities on the team after spending 10 years at the club and making over 300 appearances? Is there a longer servant at the club? I can think of no other player who has been given as much opportunities to prove himself than Theo and this was after we spent huge money on Theo at the time and so we rightfully gave him every chance. Isn’t it only right then Oscar, that we should also give Mesut Ozil every opportunity to deliver on his talent as well? I’ll be the first to say that I would wish there was more end product at times with Ozil, but in the context that this is just his second year at the club and that he has spent a lot of it injured, I say we give every opportunity and show every possible faith in him. What a wonderful talent that lad is. Would you rather we had someone like Scotty Parker sliding around on his arse?
Cheers, TS!
Joe: the technical side is probably also a factor. PSG certainly looked more comfortable in possession than Chelsea (who largely are built to be solid defensively and rely on individuals to hit teams on the break) did in those two matches.
And injuries are definitely an area we have to address. And one interesting case in point here is Bellerin who for a few years has been very highly ranked within the club but only this season was given his first-team debut, aged 19. Maybe that was a deliberate choice to allow him to grow before being thrown in the deep end? We’ve seen players like Jack, Ramsey and a few others make their debuts and become regulars at the age of 16/17 and then suffer constant injury problems and maybe the club now has the same theory as Trev about that simply being too young to play at this level without negative effects. Zelalem, despite also being seen as a major talent (though he seems to have stalled a bit), has so far only appeared once for the first team in a competitive match and that was v League One opposition for about ten minutes.
I would say that Ozil came to the club as a fully formed, ready made, supposedly world class player and has been far short of that reputation. Just as many do not get the Theo love, I fail to understand the Ozilfest that regularly goes on here. West Ham for example, I thought he had a dire game and lacked guts, particularly in the second half, but he gets praised to the skies for putting in very ordinary performances.
I don’t want to bore everybody though, so I’ll shut up BUT he was let off for missing an easy chance (Theo slaughtered instead) and nobody has criticised his lack of balls when in the second half, clean through, he failed to shoot and failed to produce a cross that had any value. He just dinked a floaty one to the back post in the usual casual manner that was too high for a chest down and shot, too high for a header on goal and far too weak even if it had been the right height anyway.
All I’m saying is that players like him and Welbeck get almost universal praise and every error is glossed over, whereas others (well one other) gets caned for everything that is not perfect. We even had criticism of him for daring to win a tackle on Satuday.
@cynic,
have it occur to you that perhaps you are too harsh on ozil just like the way you claim others are too harsh on walcott? I dont think anyone here is too harsh on walcott or ozil, just defending the ozil and wenger decision to not play walcott. Walcott, tbh, have been rather rusty which is apparent in his previous game. Had walcott not hestitated and finish the two chances he was presented in west ham, i am pretty sure wenger would have chosen him. But in such important game, will you risk a rusty player? or a player who will run and provide balance for the team? in this case, wenger chose welbeck.
will walcott change the game? maybe? we never know. but base on his performance against west ham, perhaps not.
All our players are valuable, and in the match against monaco, the team did us proud, not because of the result, but the performance itself told us they really wanted it. and yes ozil is one of them. so stop bashing ozil, thanks 😀
N7 made the point recently that constant repetition has polarised this debate massively. Personally, I am much more anti-Theo (who I still like but not as much as I used to) than I was 3 months ago due solely to the fact that the pro-Theo posters on here will not let a single incident happen on a football pitch without connecting it to Theo in some way and then praising him to the heavens or denigrating others in red and white. Now the anti-Theo posters have responded in kind.
I imagine others feel/felt this about Ozil, especially a while back when Mesut-blog was more popular than Theo-blog.
It is the black and white nature of this debate that has seen lines drawn and everyone gradually shuffle into one camp or the other. We all know what everyone else thinks about him. We have two sides with entrenched opinions, nothing much in the middle and a debate which really has been done to death lurches onwards with loads of posts which very rarely say anything that has not been said before…
Do we need another main striker to compete with Giroud? Is it a priority? Does anyone have a player in mind? How soon can we expect to see Chuba in regular action for the first eleven?
I find the ongoing debate and use of statistics on the topic of Feo fascinating. It’s almost like a religious debate from the early Middle Ages in which entrenched positions are held dearly.
Personally I see Feo as a useful squad player. He has amply demonstrated his qualities – a fast turn, pace and generally reliable on-target finish but with dependence on playing against high defences or second rate full backs. He has also amply demonstrated his deficits – generally poor ball control, dependence on pace to beat an opponent because of poor dribbling skills, a tendency to become anonymous and to make minimal contribution to games and despite possessing impressive pace to recover from loss of possession by our attackers, a disappointing record on providing cover to his full back.
I think Feo is less important to the future success of Arsenal than he was four years ago. I hope he doesn’t price himself out of Arsene’s future plans because I do value his occasional contribution and the threat that he brings to our attack under the right circumstances. However a reliable match winner at the top level? No, I’m afraid not.
Feo has also reached the age at which further major skill development becomes unlikely.
Furthermore, once he loses his pace (thankfully that is a few years off, barring major injury) then I’m not sure what he will contribute. Stanley Matthews, Puskas, De Stefano and Dennis Bergkamp (spit) played into their late 30s and even 40s because they had ball skills that they never lost until their joint deterioration stopped them moving. Sadly that is not a prospect for Feo. However he is still recovering from his serious knee injury and the pace looks fine. Hopefully he will begin to contribute as effectively as he did before that injury in the run in, above deficits notwithstanding.
Good point about reactionary polarisation.
-(spit) HORRORS!
+(PBUH)
(Poor editing, I had ‘even Teddy Sheringham’ in the first draft and then a moment of lucidity reminded me that DB10 (PBUH) was a better example of skill but I failed to remove the spit!
Debate as much as you will – Theo will still leave in the Summer. It is now even more obvious than when first predicted. The runes are saying that he will replace Sterling at the bindippers.
Chuba will never see regular first team action. Who was the last regular first team striker to come through the ranks? North Bank Ned – your knowledge is required for this one, perhaps the long-haired Wembley lay-down one?
Do any of the last 8 in the UCL come from a league that doesn’t have a Winter break and/or reschedule games to favour their participants?
He probably will, NG.
As for the rest, your last point about rescheduling games will perhaps be sorted out in the new tv deal, when some matches are played on a Friday night. We might see CL teams playing Fridays when they have Tuesday commitments in Europe, but it will depend on what Sky wants. As always.
As for the winter break that’s just an excuse.
I think the only league that has a proper break, apart from Russia, is Germany. The others have Xmas week off and from memory Spain used to have a fortnight off but that has reduced in recent years to just be the week of Xmas/New Year?
If Man City are going to use a winter break as an excuse, perhaps they shouldn’t be flying off to Abou Diaby in January to play a friendly when they have no match.
bath @ 88: “It’s almost like a religious debate from the early Middle Ages in which entrenched positions are held dearly.” We have hardly made much of an advancement in that domain of religious debates surely! 🙂
I had used statistics simply to demonstrate factually what you articulated so elegantly: Theo is an useful and effective goal-scorer but not that effective to have the other limitations of his game always overlooked and when the manager chooses someone else ahead of him in a given match after spending so many years on him it simply means that he thinks in that condition Theo would contribute less to the TEAM’s success than the chosen alternative, and we should not have to seek convoluted reasons in the manager’s psychology.
I am neither ‘pro-‘, nor ‘anti-‘ Theo. In my simple worldview such ossified perspectives about a football player is inexplicable. I think Theo is a very useful player, who adds a different dimension to our game, but at the same time given the steady evolution of the team in the last few years and then with Alexis arriving a mini-revolution in attitude especially with higher and more relentless pressing becoming an intrinsic part of our game he is a little less important than what he used to be. If he were not injured unfortunately last January and him, Ozil and Rambo could have had the chance to play off Giroud for a few months it would have been probably a different picture altogether, but that was not the case and professional sports unforgiving as it is moves on. Theo turned 26, and he can still add the work ethic for pressing high up and a little bit more craft with ball on his feet while running at the defenders, and take the next step .
NG@90: Probably Lord Bendtner, though I suspect that isn’t the long-haired lay-me down you were thinking of, and before we debate the definition of ‘regular first-team striker’ I would say that TGSTEL would have lived up to his bill matter had he not done so much laying.
Torres reckons playing for Chelsea was like swimming in wet clothes? I’d love to see him manage to swim in dry ones. The daft twat.
About English teams in Europe, it may be that the significant increase in the competitiveness in PL actually work against the top teams in Europe. Alexis in his last interview mentioned that the part he found most fascinating about English football is that the lower positioned teams fight for points until the very end and even when down by a goal or two never gives up. And a top 5 team can actually lose 3-0 against a team fighting against relegation.
That relentless ‘there is no easy game’ has two impacts: one is the obvious tiredness and not being able to rest a few key players before important CL knock-out matches. The other one is tactically the PL teams become more and more ‘used’ towards a hurrying game and less adaptable to a probing game where patience and sometimes slowing down the tempo is necessary. Both City and Arsenal players made similar kind of tactical mistakes towards the end of their home games, and Chelsea — who under Mourinho has been famous for their ability to see a situation out — players couldn’t manage to defend against corners with one man advantage.
I am not saying that the PL should introduce measures to have easier rides for big teams against smaller teams, but the way things are and going to become with more TV money coming in, it would need a deeper squad and/or some genuine managerial brilliance for a PL team to pull off a PL-CL double anytime in near future.
And before that probably Jérémie Aliadiére. Your general point holds, though.
bath@88: Religious debate in the Middle Ages usually ended up with someone being burnt at the stake…
NBN @ 98 — In some parts of the world that is kind of true nowadays, even though those parts were not the burning at stake types in the middle ages.
Time is cyclical, or something like that …
Shoots
Otd: Not sure if this backs up your point @73 or not but Ozil has played the full 90 mins in only/as many as 15 out of his 22 starts this season.
N7 @ 100: That was Inzaghi-esque, ruthless finishing but with a hint of offside… 🙂
Sectarian ideologues, religious courts, martyrs and death by fire, which ever part of the world/century could you be thinking of, Dr. F? The enlightenment part of the cycle can never come too soon.
Well in for the ton, N7G. On fire. Oops…
On Theo/Ozil/Welbeck, I think there is probably one point on which we can all agree: none of them is a patch on Sanogo.
All hail Sanogo.
NBN @ 103: With despair I look at the sub-continent today and especially the extremities in the western edges, though the messy secular democracy in the middle has an alarmingly strong number of nutcase…whereas for much of the European middle-ages the contrast of relative tolerance for diversity of opinions and practices in say Gupta or Pala empires are worth remembering. 🙁
But yes, the enlightenment cannot come too soon …
N7 knows!!!!
#NYYNP
So Sunderland home in the final week, the penultimate league match after ManU away, and before that there are no mid-week games.
Good or bad? Basically we will go in the last week with a game in hand, which may be good if we are in a good position point-wise. But if we are chasing points for a top-4 spot it would mean more pressure especially if Sunderland is still in relegation battle.
Faustus: good or bad remains to be seen on the day. We can say ahead of the game if it’s easier to play a particular opponent depending on relegation battle or not. Sometimes teams play better after already having been relegated (or have already secured not being relegated, for that matter) as the pressure disappears, and sometimes they just stop playing altogether after no longer having anything to play for.
Dr. Faustus,
you’d appreciate this, if you haven’t read it already:
http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/1833-the-red-flag-and-the-tricolore-by-alain-badiou
Noosa
Thankyou for posting the Ronay article. I am forbidden ideologically from reading the Guardian but that article made a lot of sense and wa almost as good as many of the excellent posts on this bar. Some really good debate although the ‘ Theo’ arguments are becoming a bit circular.
The comments by De Boer were interesting today. I travel in taxis a lot and today had a nice chat with a QPR fan. After commiserating with him on Harry, certain relegation and Nico Krancjar I informed him I was a Gooner. Unprompted he said’ that performance on Tuesday night was the best I have seen from an English side in Europe for years- great football.Way better than Chelsea the week before. ‘ Ronay says the same thing in the Guardian. For all Mourinho’s nous and track record a side of very talented ball players and a supposedly iron defence was overcome at home by a team of ten men lacking their best player. We played atrociously at home to Monaco but as we have done regularly, rose to the challenge when we had to play better just as we have risen to the challenge in qualifying for the CL every season. Steve T is absolutely right that it will not be easy to qualify but I still think we will and will do it well.
N7 and Lars make excellent points about progress. That team at WBA and the team we fielded at United for the 8-2 drubbing earlier that season were very much weaker than we are now. So Wenger is making progress in building his last great side and remains able to motivate this group very well on key occasions. If only the first leg against Monaco had been one! Having said that the ability to sustain a challenge on three fronts would have been very difficult and while CL success is something we all crave the likelihood of it this year was remote . Next year may genuinely be different if the summer is handled well and we go into the next season with a stable and strengthened playing staff. Only Chelsea as Ronay says are having a better season than us and at least we are not the malformed spawn of the evil one like they are!
Some have questioned the need to sign a defensive midfielder this summer given the emergence of Le Coq. I say we still need one to challenge for the title and to challenge in Europe, if we really expect to do those things. Flamini is not the solution and while Arteta is a decent player relying on him to bring us a championship is a pipe dream in my opinion. We need greater strength to dominate the midfield and help out defensively, as Coquelin has done the last couple of months. Many have said he has turned into the first name on the team sheet, but if he gets injured where would we turn?
True Faustus @93. Little progress but at least in the western democracies the ideological zealots have been largely marginalised. Pity it’s not been global.
TTG @110, I do love those conversations with London taxi drivers. So much salt of the earth wisdom – must be the result of all those thinking hours sitting in traffic going nowhere.
bt8b @ 111, we simply have to add a top quality defensively minded MFer to our squad. He can mentor Le Coq who has certainly earned his place in the squad and made a huge difference to our performances. Moreover he has bumped Flamini and probably Arteta down the selection ladder. However he needs a mentor and we need an option to play alongside him when we have to produce a strong defensive midfield.
However I am with Steve T that there are other key positions down the spine of the team where we need an improvement if we are to be serious challengers next season.
I also concur with N7 that we have definitely made progress (points total is a spuriously accurate way of judging that) and if we do the right business this summer we will be mounting a challenge domestically. Big ears remains a lottery but a further improvement in the squad this summer will see us in with a better chance of going the distance, qualification permitting.
Depends which games he was subbed in, Ned (#101) and why. It seems to me that he’s always there at the end in the ‘big’ games.
Öskar
For what it’s worth I believe Le Coq provides enough cover in most Prem games, ie, most games in the season. For the higher level matches I’d much prefer to see a more attacking ethos with two box to box players and Coq taking a rest. Currently any two of Santi, Rambo or Jack would be fine with me.
In my opinion any available money would be better spent on a central defender of the highest quality (Hummels ideally) and a supreme goal-scoring striker/midfielder/winger.
Öskar
This is why you never bet against the Arsenal… watch this video to lighten your mood… how Arsenal’s victory in the FA cup affected an African couple >>>>. http://youtu.be/YKfhjbLczPg
OTD
Sorry I can’t agree about the way you’d set up the midfield.
In the ‘ big’ games eg Chelsea, Citeh etc away from home we need to be more compact. Two box to box players see us run the risk of being drawn on to teams and attacked on the break. Our best performances have come when we have used Coquelin to hold and we have another midfield player who can push forward to create and support Ozil and the forward players . Cazorla has played this role superbly recently and Ramsey was brilliant in it last season. It is precisely the games against bigger teams where you get killed ( and Wenger gets slaughtered) if we are too open and too offensive. That was the lesson of last Spring when we got murdered on the road by our rivals.
The big question is whether we sign an upgrade on Coquelin. I am with those who believe he has progressed brilliantly and has a regular role to play but in the very big games we need greater quality than I suspect he can provide .
I believe we will go for a really top midfield player in the next window. I am with you re the need to supplement Giroud with a top striker . If we can get Hummels that would be interesting but I suspect Gabriel has the ability to be a top quality defender just as Koscielny is. I think we will keep the BFG and sign another young CB next season unless( unlike me) Wenger thinks Chambers is up to the job. I’m not sure about where it is best to use Chambers. He is highly promising but does not appear an imminent starter given the cover we have. But he is a very valuable option to have and indicative of the way in which we have strengthened the squad this season.
Our new song: https://lnkd.in/biQkNHU
Top midfield players are always useful, Ttg, but we have enough surely? If you mean a defence-minded MF who is also better than Coq, I believe that is overkill for most situations. It all depends how much money is available. In an ideal world we could probably upgrade in most positions. In the real world it’s a matter of priorities and stronger CD options, especially cover for injuries, is my #1 priority. With an Adams/Keown-type CD partnership I believe the defensive MF position becomes almost redundant.
I agree about Gabriel and Chambers, in fact I’m on record here as viewing Cal as a future club captain in the Adams mould … when he fully matures in a few years time. But neither is anything like the finished article, imo, and an older, fully-formed CD such as Hummels would be my ideal for now.
Up front we have Alexis as our great hope for the future, but I’m a little alarmed at his present loss of sparkle. He has been overplayed for sure, but is that all of it? I’m getting suspicious that he may not be the next generation Henry/Bergkamp figure he looked for much of the season. That he might even be another Özil unable to come fully to terms with the PL. Perhaps there remains a need for another TH14 or DB10 after all. Certainly you cannot have too many of them!
Öskar
No, that doesn’t mean I hate Alexis. He’s the best player in the club and currently I merely subscribe to the belief he’s been over-played and needs a rest. I just hope that’s all it is.
Öskar
Just managed a back drink.
Good stuff from pundit Lars, Joe, GSD, bath on Theo, good research (or amazing memory) Dr Faustus.
There was a time when it was possible to express an opinion in here, someone would disagree, somehow or other the disagreement would ‘descend’ into humour and we would all move on.
I, like all of us, have my opinions of players but while they wear the Arsenal shirt on the pitch I support them. Thereafter, discussions take place in bars, real and virtual, and folks move on.
It seems to have become impossible to do that here. Like GSD, I now find myself being less patient, or more tolerant, of the players debated in here lately because my view of them has been polarised by the constant crusades, one way or the other.
We are all entitled to our own opinions and that is all tney are. In that regard, it is interesting to read the various views that arise.
Some of us neither need, want or enjoy being pounded into submission by those that find it imperative to have everyone agree with them on every point they raise.
Statistics, too, can be a joy or a curse. NBN’s stats are always informative, relevant, precisely researched and enjoyable to read. Some, like those highlighted by Lars, are agenda driven and ultimately meaningless without proper context.
Crusades and agenda driven, non-contextual statistics are making it difficult to have an enjoyable exchange in here of late. This is generally just supposed to be about football and, I believe, to some extent fun.
Just my opinion, of course.
Sorry, Holic, if I am treading on your toes.
On Coquelin.
Hard to say what level of quality he is. He has done absolute wonders this season and is still improving. We certainly need another DM as it will be impossible for him to play every game.
Arteta appears to be knackered and I imagine Flamini will depart in the summer, so that department will be understaffed.
Do we need better than Coquelin ? If better is available, I suppose the answer is yes, but he has a big part to play. In any event he will have to be supplemented.
Re. 118. No offence mate but I`m glad you dont pick the team. I also find your transfer wish list rather amusing/disturbing. You seem to want a Keown-Adams like central defensive partnership and another Thierry Henry up top with another Bergkamp thrown in for good measure. Nothing wrong with wanting those type of players but good luck finding them and even better luck trying to sign them. Youve just mentioned 4 absolute legends of the club and 3 of those players would be considered by most fans to be amongst the top 5 players to have ever played for us. And here lies the problem with a lot of our supporters, they keep comparing the current side to the greatest club side this country has ever produced. Ive got news for you though my friend, you could live until you are 200 and you wont see another Arsenal side that good. Players like big Tone, Dennis and Henry come along only once in a hundred years and thats if your lucky. No, what we have to do is continue along the lines of the last 2 summers and gradually improve the team/squad. We are getting there but it might take another couple of summer transfer windows before we have a side capable of winning the title again. For what its worth, I think a big strong athletic defensive minded midfielder should be top of our shopping list. Its going to stunt the growth of 1 or 2 of the young British kids and it may lead to a less flamboyant team but I am beginning to fear that some of these injury problems are here to stay. And as for the style of football, I couldnt careless so long as we win.
Trev @ 120: Thanks. The depiction of events are from memory but the stats (much despised as they are :-)) are researched.
noy noy @ 109: Thanks for that link. I hadn’t read it already. I of course can’t hold a candle to Badiou’s grasp, insight or articulation … but in my own limited ways I do not necessarily agree with that ‘conclusion’. Or for that matter the characterization of the divides which betrays his very own ‘Frenchness’ and in my humble opinion the conflicts he is describing can also be seen in different lights altogether by dissociating one’s perspective from the need of identities. Or rather looking at identities as an effect, not a cause.
But this is an Arsenal blog and I don’t want us to get on directions that can be so divisive that the Theo debate will pale in comparison. 🙂 I admire a lot of Badiou’s works, his analysis of Wittgenstein as an anti-philosopher (in the sense the Sophists were anti-philosophers to Plato) in my mind situates him as a sort of conscience of the inheritance of the Greek ideal, and against the aphoristic traditions of Nietzsche or Wittgenstein who revel in paradoxes. They are two of my favorite thinkers and Badiou’s text clarifies to me why they remain such strongly polarizing figures in western thought.
Trev @ 121: Coquelin has been fantastic. As has been Ozil since his return into fitness. As has been Santi. And so is Giroud recently. Rambo — cross our fingers — close to being back to his best from last season. Monreal has established himself as one of the top LBs in PL. Bellerin, all of 20 years old, is one of the most promising young RBs in European football…
I am with you in enjoying these performances and hoping for a sustained run than thinking about how to upgrade them in near future. Time for that discussion will come as well, as it always does.
Rumour has it that Theo wants more than 100K a week for an extension, if that be so, then I believe we may indeed sell him.
Would love him as an ‘option’ but the way the team is set up we may indeed need a player that provides more cover.
No offence taken, Johnno, all opinions welcome here. But you misunderstand me a tad. While I suggest an Adams/Keown CD partnership as the ideal which would make a DMF redundant, I certainly don’t expect to find one in a hurry. Which is why I am happy to have Le Coq in front of our CDs for most games in a season. I just don’t think a top DMF is what wins CL matches.
Nor do I expect to find another Henry/Bergkamp in a hurry. I was just expressing a little concern about the ultimate quality of our attack which leaves a space open in the event a superstar did come along.
It’s just my opinion that we don’t need a DMF as much as we need additional quality in the back line and something more reliable in the goal-scoring department. And the latter may not be needed at all if Alexis re-finds his mojo and develops it further in his second season which, I’ve been told many times, is when we see the best of new players.
Looking for three new players would only stretch what I assume will be a limited budget to lesser levels. Le Coq being good enough for most purposes, imo.
Öskar
For you, noy noy and Dr F. The Python Philosopher’s Song, edited and added to by yours truly…
PHILOSOPHUZZLED
Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant
Whose drunkenness was fable
Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table
Burke and Hume could out-consume
Heraclitus and Hegel
While Wittgenstein and Willard Quine
Got just as schlosched as Schlegel
When Aristotle was on the bottle
He drank flat out like an axolotl
But Dewey, Mach and Herb Marcuse
Preferred to stand at a bar and booze
Schopenhauer would oft devour
A quart of schnapps in half an hour
While Diogenes and Socrates
Could drink dry Grecian hostelries
Blessed Duns Scotus, laird of all topers
Made most drinking thinkers look total no-hopers
And Buber’s Bacchanalian drive, 24/7/365
Kept him alive until eighty-five
Hobbes and Mill of their own free will
Would swill and swill until they were ill
And Tillich and Schlick were pretty quick
To knock it back till it made them sick
Plato, they say, could stick it away
As much as a goatskin of mead a day
And as for Nietzsche, the plastered creature
Well he could teach a whiskey preacher
But none held a fart to Rene Descartes
Who could shift more booze than a liquor mart
Never giving a damn Rene poured a dram
And raised his glass saying “Up your arse…
I drink therefore I am!”
Öskar
Oskar @ 127: I recall seeing an early version of that from you. Is this one of life’s endearing pastime now? 🙂
But excellent work (even though the original’s charm of brevity is somewhat lost). Now you need to find a way to rhyme Althusser with boozer and Sartre with chartreuse … 🙂
Give me time, Dr F, which I don’t have now … just off out for dinner with the daughter.
Have a pleasant evening, morning, day or night, wherever you are. 😉
Öskar
Theo wants more pay for signing the contract? Well, well, well does he merit that? I do not think so. Should we hold on to him which would mean Ox continues to play second fiddle to him? I am not sure for i see Ox being the better version of theo.
If and this is a big If, we can get a replacement for Santi or a Cf and in the bargain we lose theo, i would take it. Santi is into his glorious twilight, even with all the good things danny and giroud bring in, we do need a world class striker, hence if the deal does go through, i wont be complaining if we sell theo.
Newcastle saturday and expect a out of this world performance by Krul, he reserves his best against us so expect a tough afternoon.
I would have us resting Sanchez and playing theo for the game as well as Ozil if Rozza is fit. Rest pick themselves and it will be interesting to see how much fatigue and physical exertion the monaco game has taken out of our players. I am expecting quite a bit to be honest hence i hope we can scrape through a 1-0 win again.
Trev, well spoken@120.
He hasn’t merited a pay rise but you could say that about most of our contract renewals over the last ten years.
Pay rises are naturally occurring events in football though, so it’s not about the rise it’s how big it is. Matron.
Bye Feo and thanks for all the Pfffffts.
🙂
Afobe keeps on scoring: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/31970764 .
8 goals since January, 27 for the season. Hopefully Wolves get a promotion and we will see him in PL next year.
We have to change certain players for sure. Giroud is not a top forward scorer, sometimes if you look closely he interrupts arsenal passing or decides wrong while playing shoots when he has to pass or he pass when he has to shoot except with the goal against Southampton. Coquelin is a regular player no crack, nothing polite, not a great assistant. We need someone much better Wanyama or Schneiderlin, finally we really need a good center back because Mertesacker and Koscielny sometimes le us down, mostly in important games…
I agree Cynic about pay rise and its merits and who truly deserves it. Yet at times players holding the club to ransom over that when they do not honestly merit it, is something i have a grouse against. I am not just speaking about Theo here i mean it for most and this player power is ridiculous.
Sissokko audition again tomorrow and New Castle will definitely want to put up a better show at home. looks a tough afternoon for the Gunners but an early goal should help us settle things in our favour. Giroud to score again/ or will it be Kos again?
Nurse !!
It’s time for Daniel M’s medication.
Re. 126. Fair enough Oscar and I agree that all comments should be welcome. I cannot agree with you about the importance or in your opinion lack of importance that a top DMF brings to a side. Believe me, if the opposition had of been allowed to consistently run straight at Adams/Keown then our goals against column would have looked a lot different. Adams/Keown/Bould were given proper protection. Too many times in the last 7 or 8 years we have not defended well enough as a team and there has been a complete dereliction of defensive duty amongst our more creative players. Every great Arsenal team in my lifetime has had a selfless player who did the dirty work and sacrificed himself for the good of the team. Many supporters dont appreciate players like Kevin Richardson, David Hillier or Gilberto but I bet their team mates did. As for the Champions League, I would say that the way we are set up and the type of players we have at the moment that it is even more essential to have a top class holding midfeilder. I personally would like to see us play with 2 of them in many of our European games. Having a good defence is a direct result of defending well in front of them and until we address that issue we will continue to come up short, especially in Europe.
The scheduler has given us a favor this weekend, if we can take advantage by taking the three points on Saturday to put pressure on Liverpool, Manchester United and Chelsea who all have to wait until Sunday to make it up. Let’s put the pressure on them.
Trev at one hundred and twenty.
I have felt it for some time this season and, as a result, have been posting much less of late (though lacked the ambition and ability to articulate it anywhere near as well). Am still visiting regularly, just not drinking as much. I’m not really a regular, but more of a semi, a partial, a halfy…maybe 🙂 At any rate, well said.
There is perhaps a deeper debate (for another time and/or place) about manners these days, or more correctly, virtual manners in general. Facebook, twitter and such affect many people and encourage arrogant, inconsiderate, rude, and divisive exchanges. It seems that at any given time most folks are spoiling to disagree by virtue (at least in part) of the anonymity of the interwebs. I rather believe that, face to face and in person, the sort of “comments” that are considered common place in digital society today would never happen.
That the ‘guvnor has run this bar and kept it a tight ship for so long is a huge credit to him and many drinkers who frequent this bar. Long may it continue. And as I’ve said before, I’m just happy that he lets me in the door.
Cheers.
in homer’s camp. completely.
Homer @ 140: Everything you said was true, but if I may I should also congratulate the denizens this fine establishment for impressive self-restraint for the most part and the barkeeper for judicious usages of his omnipotence and for setting the tone of civility. It is actually remarkable how moderate and pleasant the tone of conversation here is: I have experienced forums about Physics to Cricket, Philosophy to Politics and in most places rarely a day goes by without someone threatening someone else with unspeakable acts to their mater.
Civilization has been a very difficult and tenuous enterprise for us, and we do not easily let go of any opportunity to reward us for our meticulous behavior under the collective gaze by throwing feces at the world when no one is looking. 🙂
@142 ‘… denizens of this …’ .
So… Theo Walcott… *ducks*
😉
BT8B – The added bonus being that United and Liverpool will be trying to slit each other’s throats and we cannot fail to gain over one of them (or both) if we win, whatever happens in that game.
It is all set up nicely.
I met up with a friend yesterday who was discussing a mutual acquaintance. His son played for Arsenal for several years at schoolboy and youth level and he was signed as a professional. If you follow the story those who are au fait with the youth set up will guess his name. Signing professional was his aim, he felt having reached that level he would almost certainly not make it at Arsenal but would have a fine career. But he had recurrent shin splints which hampered his development and eventually he was released. He was offered a contract by Stoke but injury intervened, he went on loan to Margate and then Hughes got rid of a number of youngsters at the club including him. He plays only recreationally now and had taken up full time education. He was a teammate of Banik Afobe but very few of his contemporaries have made it.
Is that another example of a youngster who was overplayed and who is now incredibly injury prone as a result of wear and tear before his bones had fully developed? I always defer to Trev in these matters but it is a very real worry that our youngsters suffer too many serious setbacks. Read the biographies in the programme and look at the recurrent theme- young players off for months or in some cases a season with career- threatening injuries. Does this happen at La Masia or Ajax?
Johnno @138 – spot on.
Homer @140 – perfectly well said.
Some great comments in this round. Well done chaps.
COYG
Just figured out Flamini and I share a birthday. I knew there was something I liked about him. 🙂
While I take Trev and Homer’s point I am delighted with the general tone of respect and civility.found here. I found last summer tedious with two ( thankfully departed ) posters debating ad infinitum the minutiae of transfer gossip. #Free Balotelli was a frequent and terrifying end to several posts .
I like the multinational aspect of the bar and am full of admiration at how well our friends from abroad keep in touch with events in N 5. Dr. F is a particular case in point. His recent analysis of Theo was highly impressive and the point about Afobe is interesting. Frankly I am a little surprised that we have apparently preferred the injury prone Sanogo to him. He is hitting his stride as a regular goalscorer in the Championship and looks a hot prospect . I wish the lad well.
An amen to all those praising the civility of this bar. And a large glass raised to the Guv’nor for keeping it so.
Evening all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Trev@120: Just back drunk. Thank you for your kind words.