I’ve Seen This Show Before
Feb 24th, 2016 by 'holic
A full moon over the Grove
It was everything we had expected. A special night where sport met theatre, a play noir if you will, one we have seen before, and although some previously unseen ad-libs were thrown in the outcome saw hope crushed by expectation.
That sense of theatre was built up as the teams entered the field of play. Another spectacular light show and a wonderful display organised by the lads and lasses of Red Action lifted the volume of the home support, and they kept it going for most of the evening. You would have been forgiven for thinking we had not given the Catalans an allocation of seats for the opening seventy minutes.
It started well enough, and although we were seeing less of the ball than usual I think we had expected that. What was important was what both sides did with the ball when they got it. By and large I thought Barca paid us enormous respect in the opening 45 minutes. Indeed their best opportunity to score would be a Suarez header as the half expired.
We knew beforehand we would have to be ruthless when chances presented themselves to us. Too often of late we have not been. Again the chances came and went. “They lack creativity” say the hard of thinking, but on a night when possession was scarce Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain and Aaron Ramsey had chances to break the deadlock. A familiar pattern was emerging.
As they had threatened at the end of the first-half, so Barca started the second. Arsenal’s defence was stretched allowing Neymar a great opportunity but Petr Cech was more than equal to the Brazilians effort. Could we find that lethal response? Olivier Giroud came close but Ter Stegen frustrated him as Cech had done Neymar.
From the stands it became evident that the visitors were turning the screw, with their fine flowing football mixed with the dark arts. They rattled the crowd and sought to cause indiscipline in the Arsenal ranks. With twenty minutes to go it worked. Β We had too many players caught upfield and Barca hit us on the break. When the spare man at the end of a cavalry charge is Messi there is only one outcome. The classic sucker punch delivered.
Danny Welbeck’s introduction for the tiring Giroud gave those in the ground at least a glimmer of hope. He looks a bulked-up version of the player we signed from Manchester United, and he willingly applied himself to the cause although ultimately with no effect.
I remember looking at the clock with twelve minutes to go thinking back five years to where we beat the same visitors from 0-1 down at this point. Alas, history doesn’t repeat itself that often. Four minutes later the dream was over. Substitute Mathieu Flamini was caught cold by a Per Mertesacker pass and could only send a willing Messi sprawling under the referee’s nose. From the spot the same player completed his double for the night and left Arsenal with what understatement would suggest is a huge mountain to climb in the second-leg.
On train and rail replacement bus the long haul home provided the opportunity for a recap. Who had played well, or badly? Actually apart from the odd mistake I thought we had played well, but not well enough. Arsene Wenger was quick to point out that some had made the wrong decision in individual situations but we had been solid, if a little predictable. Too seldom did we use Alexis who appeared to relish any one on one with Alves, and there were not enough runs made in between and behind a back line that is far from watertight.
I suggested on Twitter in the aftermath that we should now consider sending the ‘squad eleven’ to Barca for the second leg and a strong team to Hull for the FA Cup replay. Most (not all) seemed to agree. Why risk injuries that could scupper our double chances on the domestic front?
Anyway, a lovely afternoon and evening spent with some great company, and we got to see that wonderful attacking trio in the flesh. It was another atmospheric night at the Grove but sadly minus the happy ending, that straw to grasp. We need to strengthen this squad to truly challenge for the biggest prize of them all, but we knew that much already.
Art of Football Competition
Congratulations to Rob Skinner who has won himself an Art of FootballΒ The Artists tee, and to Jonny Haussmann who has won himself a print from the same collection. I will get Art of Football to contact you both to organise your choices.
Thank you all for entering.
170 Responses to “I’ve Seen This Show Before”
The chances came and went. Indeed. Great pity. Great report.
It was Grandson Henry’s birthday treat last night, so he and his dad as my tickets. The game on the computer was the one you saw in the ground and the atmosphere soaked through digital space quite nicely. I went to the Nou Camp for the last return fixture. I think I’ll pass on the opportunity this time, nice as Barcelona is at this time of year.
BTW, shouldn’t yoube working? π Coffee break is it?
Tip Top Article Squire agree with every word, Onwards and Upwards and make mine a double π
Up The Arse
Excellent analysis Holic. I think,our options re future games should be to prioritise the Cup over this. Why prioritise a game we have a 5% chance in by our own admission.
I’ve given the game plenty of welly in the previous bat.
I want to take Btm up on his point about me wanting us to do a ‘ LVG’. Btm is making a humorous point but the answer is that firstly I don’t think we push hard enough to sign top talent. All of the mooted suggestions I made are people we might have signed last season . I would trust Wenger with Β£250 million much more than I would trust LVG.
We all know if he did those deals he would raise cash. If we lost Ox and/ or Walcott( probably untransferrable on his salary) , Ramsey ( to Barca?- unlikely?) and Debuchy we would raise the neck end of Β£100 million and be much better off for it in my view as none of our British core make me believe they have it in them at this level. However hard it is to sign players of the top,top level you must try.And as Btm points out Wenger is the best spotter of second tier talent that develops into top – class talent under his tutelage ( Koscielny, Monreal and hopefully Welbeck)
Wenger’s comments were the toughest I’ve heard from him last night in terms of our failings. Ultimately I believe as Cech, Sanchez and Ozil show, you get what you pay for and I think we need to ensure that the likes of Flamini are nowhere near this squad in future by replacing with real quality.
Because we lost I wil not mention the man in yellow. Enough said, I hope.
BtM – the shotgun was for self harm, as in
“He took the Arsenal result really badly, I should have known something was up when he took the rope, a chair and his shotgun upstairs”
“And after a while you went up to check he was ok and that’s when you found him…”
“Drowned… Yes”.
So who would you pick on Sunday?
A front three from Welbeck, Walcott, Sanchez and Giroud?
Personally I’d definitely pick Welbeck and I’d have Sanchez on the bench with Feo left and Oliver Giro up the middle.
Ill do that for you Guv
All senses of this word are vulgar slang and are very strongly tabooed and censored. The meanings that refer to a woman and a contemptible person are used with disparaging intent and are perceived as highly insulting and demeaning. There are many words used to refer to people in sexual terms. However, to call a person a cunt, is one of the most hateful and powerful examples of verbal abuse in the English language. See also gash1.
Oh sorry you meant Cuneyt π
Your comment was spot on. Although I never expected us to go through against a stellar squad as Barca possess, I was disappointed by the performances of both Sanchez and Ozil. They are our two most expensive players with huge international experience. On the whole it was an encouraging team performance and the defensive setup was good with both Cocquelin and Ramsey working their hearts out.
For the return match, which one has to admit is a daunting task which should go for it and playing a midfield four of Cocquelin, Ramsey, Ozil and Sanchez in front of the defence and a two pronged attack made of Giroud and Wellbeck. That would give us more solidity in defence and added attacking options in front. One might even suggest that we should play a second string team and challenge for a domestic double.
Whatever the outcome we need to consolidate the squad for next season.
Nice report Holic and the title sums us up – we have been fucking up the first leg of the tie at this stage for the last so many years. Pity we never learn our leason.
We played well for most part and then disintegrated. It was not easy for Barca and the look on their faces at the end showed how relieved They were to come off with a win. It was hard work for them for sure.
Our passing is what lets us down especially from Ox and Ramsey which negates the great shift they put in. Of the four teams, Barca,us,Bayern and Juventus, we the least technically proficient and unless we get better players or do something in training to overcome our deficiencies in passing we will never be successful at this level. Hopefully, the boss will buy a couple of good players and at least one great player next season which will strengthen our A team.
It is true that we play attacking football but that does not mean we bomb forward recklessly leaving huge open spaces behind which even lower rated teams have been exploiting; with Barca it was a certainty. There is a degree of naivety in our teams makeup and the manager cannot absolve himself totally of it either.
I agree with TTG @4 that we should shift our focus to PL and FA Cup. We play Barca on 16th March and Everton on 19th March and I would keep our A team fresh for the Everton tie, no point chasing something which we have only 5% chance of achieving.
It was great to see Welbeck in such good touch. He will make a big difference and I am hoping that he will help Sanchez in upping his game.
All in all, I felt quite proud of how we played and with a bit of luck and better finishing we could have won. Hope we have that bit of luck against Manure.
Sounds like you’re living in an Arsenal Happy Valley there, Cynic.
I think we’ll see last night’s defence and MF at Old T. Funnily enough I was musing over who I’d start up front. All four will feature and on this occasion I’d start with Alexis on the bench and impact-sub him around 60 minutes (for Walcott). Danny on the left I think. (Probably just as well that I don’t actually get to make these calls.
TTG, I too would trust Arsene with the 250M over LVG. He’ll spend this summer when Arteta, Rosicky, Flamini and Debuchy depart. While it’s not impossible that two of Ox, Walcott, Gibbs may also depart I think it’s unlikely. All three, I agree, have punched way below their weight, but a combination of AW loyalty and hope that promise will be fulfilled will keep them with us. JW’s future, because of physical frailty, might also be called into question, but again, I think (and hope in his case) that he’ll stay. I think the chances of Ramsey going mid-contract are nil.
So then we’re into the “who do we buy” game and more importantly, who’s available? Too early for that, but I don’t think players of, say, Benzema quality would represent an upgrade. Let’s win the league and ponder hard thereafter π
Big thanks to so many, but Joe in particular, in the last drinks. It could have been an ugly night. Fortunately the spam filter is pretty good these days.
Speaking of which a couple of you posted drinks with multiple links on last night. The spam filter automatically snaffles anything with more than two. I have released them manually.
I’m not sure about Saturday BtM. Until last night I have never thought him a direct option for Giroud, but he does appear to have bulked up and has the attributes to play with his back to goal, as well as decent pace if we can get him in behind. I might be tempted to give HFB a week off to do nothing but recharge his batteries?
Fine match report Guvna. Frustrating night again.
We still have too many ‘nearly men’ and not enough top drawer players to compete at this level though the addition of a Peter Storey mentality would compensate for that when it comes to dealing with a breakaway like the one that punished us last night. Cynical but essential if you are going to compete with a team that uses every trick in the book to enhance their obvious and more creditable footballing qualities. Damn shame we lost the second.
Great drink in the last drinks @230 Joe.
I agree with TTG that we should play a scratch team in the return leg and concentrate on the domestic double. Frankly that would be a remarkable achievement for this team.
Not seen the game as I was flying at at that time, car then decided to drain the battery so couldn’t even listen to it on the way home from the airport.
Saw the play acting from Arsenalist and yes they are disgusting but hey we all know what we can expect from Alves and co….
Pitty we lost in such fashion from our own mistakes as always π
Never mind bring on the Mancs!
I too would trust Arsene with the 250M over LVG
That’s cos you know you’ll get Β£249M change.
Heh @16.
http://www.101greatgoals.com/101ggvideos/arsenal-loanee-jon-toral-makes-two-outrageous-passes-for-birmingham-official-video/
Eh…TTG @ 4 and BTM @10, he does have Β£250 mill, but still only pulls out small change from his pocket money on players he doesn’t trust, although clearly bought to replace obvious weaknesses he sees in the team. It’s unfathomable and we end up in the penalty box with Mert and Flam surrounded by well, you know, those 3 lads. And a six at the end of Welbz, Feo, Alexis, Ozil, Rambo and Flam working in front of and “protecting” the back four ! And bringing on Theo instead of the hard-working Campbell if he was all about defending last night ? Would have rathered he hadn’t roasted the players afterwards last night too. I thought they did rather well and it’s odd he didn’t try to keep confidence up for the weekend. Why couldn’t he just have made excuses as usual with OT looming ? I mean, it was his idea to try and win 0-0 ! Can’t believe all this rabbiting on in here about the FA Cup either, what is that all about ? Is that what we’re about, 3 in a bloody row so AW can bow out in style if we blow the Prem ? Because that’s the least he deserves ? Oh God I hope Alexis sorts himself out, we can still do it. His form will be the defining difference I reckon and he is a Lion of a man…COYG.
Morinho would have beaten Barca with this same team. We always love to play clean. Why would a team play Barca and end up with one yellow card and expected to win?
Good fair write up.
At least someboday watched the same game as me
Reading some of the cobblers on the internet today I was starting to wonder if I had dreamt it all….
One of our soon to be opponents is in for a hiding when the scoring drought damn breaks. Hope it’s this weekend.
The Cl dream is over for another year and let us not spend more time and effort on that ship wreck ,now is all about getting the league and fa cup.
Just catching up with the drinks in the aftermath; an excellent set in this summary report and particularly in the previous post mortem. Watched the match in full on the telly, and two moments were telling. First, when the Ox in the box proved not to be a fox in the box, that squandered chance was going to be one to rue. Secondly, when Flamini came on for Coquelin, there seemed to be a collective “WTF?” coming through the supporters. For those who were at the grounds, was that the case? And I haven’t seen this, but was AW ever asked why Coquelin was subbed out?
Finally, AW called out the squad for being naive; seems to crop up an awful lot, notably in recent CL campaigns. Maybe he needs to take a moment to ask himself if he’s part of the reason and that there needs to be an infusion of players who have lots of talent combined with a dollop of street smarts and ruthlessness to get this side to the highest levels.
just remembered why i love Countdown
A brief note to say that when AW goes we could do better than to appoint the current Leverkusen manager who was banned for three games after arguing with the referee about the positioning of a free kick.
Probably was a cunt of a referee though. π
Excellent report, ‘Holic. Wistful and evocative without being maudlin or murderous. Last night confirmed what most in this bar know, that we can compete with the best in the world but rarely beat them.
I thought we played very well last night. Restricting MSN to a total of four shots on goal is no mean feat (and speaks to the vacuity of the notion that AW doesn’t/can’t do tactics). We had our half-chances, and despite the defensive lapses that let Barca score, a two-goal win flattered them on the night, only fanning home frustration at the result.
However, playing very well is not sufficient to beat world-class — and that is the rarefied company we — rightly — wish to keep. Yes, the squad can be strengthened (what squad can’t, not that that is like going down to the local Aldi and picking a couple of world-class players off the shelf?). Yes, we could be more ruthless (in front of goal and across the park; the Invincibles were no saints). Yes, we need to keep our best players without injury (oh, how we are missing Santi). But we also need not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Cheers Guvna.
A fair & refective view of last nights encounter against the best team in the world. I think the team acquitted itself well on the night with the differences being the one level further of quality that the barcunts possess – particularly in the forward department. My only quibble was the substitution of Coquelin for Flamini – I still can’t work out why, although the immediate penalty conceded was the fault of the otherwise immaculate Per.
The one real area that fell short was in our goal scoring efforts – we snatched at the odd opportunities that came away. Sadly too regular a feature of late. If we can recapture the knack if scoring along with a similar committed performance of last night, then we have every chance of giving Manure a good hiding next Sunday.
As normal many good poss but Joe in the last drinks summed it up perfectly.
Cannot go without commenting on the diving / acting performances of Barca players. They may justifiably be world champion but they have some of the snidest cunts to go with it – none worse than Alves.
and ‘holic 12
is there a breathalyzer setting
on yer spam filter ?
if so
then please engage
not only for my benefit
but for the sanity and enjoyment
of others here
in my defence
it was delicious homemade liquorice hooch
50% or thereabouts
it takes allsorts i s’pose
?
several here were on it
the favourite being
swally,blackcurrant cordial and lemonade
in a tall glass
i was more agricultural
and eschewed mixers
hench
???
Thank you for an excellent, and balanced report, ‘Holic.
TTG – I continue to be fascinated by your remarks about Wenger; in particular about his transfer policy.
You say “I donβt think we push hard enough to sign top talent”, and that’s an opinion that you are certainly entitled to. Is it any more than an opinion, though? Unless I have misunderstood (or mis-remembered) your comments here over the years (and both of these are more than possible), you don’t have first-hand knowledge of how Arsenal in general, or Wenger in particular, go about their transfer business, but you do have access to people who are better-informed than most about these matters. I don’t recall your ever stating that these people have first-hand knowledge – again I may have overlooked or forgotten that – but I have the impression that your sources are “club insiders”.
Some time ago, I recall your describing your view of Wenger’s continuation as manager as being “left-of-centre”, an expression that puzzled me, but which I took to mean that you aligned more with the “time for a change” tendency that the “steady as she goes”. Since you wrote that, I feel you have been a little happier with the latter attitude. I don’t criticise you for holding this opinion (and if I misrepresent you then I will apologise profusely) and I only mention it because my impression of you has helped to form the way in which I read your comments.
I take quite strong issue with those who criticise the seriousness of Arsenal’s attempts to acquire top, top talent. There can be little argument with criticisms of the results of that policy – Özil and Sanchez apart, we have failed to recruit any worldies for several years now. (Incidentally (i) Why leave out those two? Incidentally (ii) Who was the last worldie that we did succeed in recruiting – Bergkamp, in my opinion, and since he was signed under Rioch, I guess it serves to bolster criticism of AW. I believe that Henry only became world-class while he was Arsenal and that is even more true of Vieira and Pires.) However, I haven’t myself seen anything that suggests that Arsenal haven’t put in all the effort that could legitimately be expected in order to recruit players. To be convinced of that, I would need to see actual evidence that Arsenal had pulled out of negotiations for clearly unsound reasons, or had failed to enter negotiations that had a clear chance of a successful outcome.
I suspect that you have been drawn, naturally, toward insiders who share your views, and that if I have correctly deduced your views then it’s not surprising that those insiders agree with you that our efforts have been lacking. I regret that I’m not inclined to take your acceptance of those views at face value.
We are always referred to the unsuccessful pursuit of Suarez when these discussions come around; indeed SteveT did so once again in the previous bar. To my mind, the dealings that summer (2013?) were conducted exactly as they should have – we went big after Higuain, and at the same time we went after Suarez, in the hope that we would land one or the other. Sadly we weren’t successful with either. As a businessman, TTG, would you not agree that you should set out a strategy, formulate some tactics to achieve that and then proceed to execute them? Sometimes, despite your best efforts, you don’t manage it – when that happens you look for another way to achieve your objectives.
Finally, may I say that I do respect you opinions, even (or maybe because) I disagree with them in this case, and I particularly appreciate, the manner in which you express them. I state my misgivings above in the hope that you can point out my error – if there is one. I apologise now, without reservation if I have given any offence, it was entirely accidental.
Also, sorry one and all for the inordinate length of this drink, it’s something I feel quite strongly about and I wanted to take care to express myself accurately.
Pangloss,
I never find your opinions offensive, even if I on occasions don’t share them. You have been extraordinarily careful to balance your comments and to put my remarks in context.
Lest we bore the other drinkers let me cut to the gist of your questions. I know a few of the old players a little and a couple of media figures who have good sources at the club but never has anyone phoned or texted me with anything that could be construed as an exclusive. I’m loth to reveal the specific opinions of people like that because they have been expressed in confidence.
It’s fair to say that on Wenger some of the old players while recognising Wenger’s great achievements are privately a bit bemused as are a lot of the fans by the seeming reluctance to spend. It’s not a huge secret because they express very similar views in the media when consulted. One person who I would mention is Bob Wilson. He is a man of great personal loyalty and he has a very strong bond with Wenger. He is always at pains to point out how hard Wenger works, how committed he is to the club and has gone public on a couple of bids we made. I have to say from what he has told me I think the issue and I’m not the first one to identify this is that even given the painstaking way we identify players., Wenger has the final say and vetoes several deals on cost grounds. I understand this is very rare among managers in the way that I as marketing director saw it as my role to put forward costed ideas and fight with the finance director to get them through. He is apparently as much a finance director as anything else. Is that really his job when we already have one and a CEO( who he helped appoint!) I’ve never met the man but would be fascinated to do so.
Where do I stand on him? He is a great manager, we are very lucky to have had him and he suffers from his own success and the expectations he creates( I’ve said all this before. ) But he earns an enormous salary , with bonuses greater than Β£8 million a year so I do feel able to criticise him and he certainly has a few flaws.
My perception and it is no more is that he does not achieve enough mega- deals and the mega – deals make or mar your season and are transformational. I still don’t believe we couldn’t find and sign a striker better than Giroud in the summer and I think we were rather fortunate that Cech fell into our lap.
Should we replace him? I’m certainly not persuaded we should , because he has done a wonderful job and is so motivated but like many drinkers here in this bar I will always expect us to try to push the club forward. I’ve slightly moved my position on this because when we faced Bayern and lost 3-1 at home I started to think he was running out of ideas. But he has done a wonderful job of regenerating the club since.
We’ve reached an extraordinary position where only winning the title will satisfy most fans because they know we have an almighty chance this season but injuries and lack of quality manpower have hamstrung us. Who do we blame for that ? Probably we only can blame the man who sits astride every decision we make so maybe he has made a rod for his own back.
30 and 31
quite possibly
the two best
call and response
drinks i’ve read here
proper big hitters
TTG,
I share your concern that we don’t bore the rest of the bar – it’s something of a speciality of mine π
I’m inclined to agree with most of what you say @31, though I’m less inclined than you to “drop the pilot”.
I think your last paragraph cuts to the chase; I have no problem with the idea that the one taking the decisions should bear responsibility for them, what I do find extraordinary is that “only winning the title will satisfy most fans”. I don’t disagree that it’s the case (although ‘most’ may be inaccurate), but I don’t accept that it’s a sensible view.
While I’m considering the acceptance of responsibility (so much nicer a word than ‘blame’, I think), I don’t believe I’ve seen anywhere that should Arsenal win the title this season, Wenger should be carried shoulder high by the fans, all of whom should offer him their first-born in recognition of his achievement. I don’t think that a first title win for twelve seasons is impossible, nor do I think that the celebration vaguely referred to is entirely without analogy to some of the ways of marking failure to win the title that I have seen suggested.
Enough.
COYG
Thanks, cba.
Outstanding level of drinks post-Barca game. Very good to read reflective and insightful, but not hysterical, reactions to the defeat.
From my perspective, it was a very focused, impressive team performance – especially defensively – and we were slightly unfortunate to lose 2-0 (probably a 2-1 defeat or maybe even a 1-1 draw might have been a fairer reflection of the balance of the game.) That said, the simple difference was the Barca front 3, and we must remind ourselves we are talking about 3 of probably the best 4-5 players in the world, playing in tandem. Yes, we left ourselves open, but their first goal was outstanding and breathtaking in its ruthlessness and sheer efficiency: you couldn’t imagine the Ox, Ramsey and Giroud for example, having the awareness, speed of thought and technique to conjure a similar moment.
As for player performances. My theory with Alexis is that he’s playing far, far too deep. We need to find ways to get Alexis much further up the pitch and in dangerous positions, because currently, he’s picking the ball up deep on the left flank, and simply trying to do too much, cutting inside where the play’s congested, and not releasing the ball with the speed and simplicity you need from players in midfield positions. I think it’s a case of Alexis trying too hard after a punctuated season, but I do worry that teams have found him and Arsenal out a touch. Defend deep, fill the space in front of Arsenal with 9-10 men, and we find it very difficult to break teams down.
As for the Ox, I’m sadly fairly certain he will lack the technical level (mentally as well as in his play) to go on to become a world-class player. He’s very quick, and on certain days where his dynamic, direct style works he can look good, but he’s your classic British football youth product: we are awed by visceral things like pace, commitment, directness, being able to strike a football cleanly (probably b/c our domestic game is so quick); yet we never really privilege good movement, the ability to master the football, players who are efficient in possession, the ability to make simple, effective passes….In addition to that, for a club aspiring to be one of the top 6-8 teams in Europe, your top 3 front players must all score at least 10 goals a season (ideally 2 of them over 20 – hence why Alexis’ shortfall this season has left us in trouble, it’s OG who’s the only one holding up his end of the scoring bargain). The Ox’s scoring record is so laughably poor, it’s no longer a joke. As I said a couple of weeks back, I’d have him 5th choice RW after Theo, Danny, Joel and Rambo, so I actually do question AW for picking him (was he really swayed by his Bournemouth performance alone?)
Other things that worry me: Ramsey’s attacking passing isn’t good enough for a central midfield player. Yes he may have had 35/40 passing accuracy, but those 5 he missed were the key breakaway, decisive ones. If Ramsey isn’t contributing in goals, then his place must come into question. He actually does a lot defensively that I don’t think he gets credit for, but Santi and Elneny both look much better in possession than Ramsey so watch this space over the last 3 months of the season.
I’m glad to see a bit more love for Welbz in the fanbase, though I do kind of fear it’s more a case of “absence makes the heart grow fonder” and that people are projecting onto him because of our poor attacking performances. While I think he’s still got potential and the raw materials to improve even at 25, I’d be loath to make him our attacking messiah just yet. Certainly, I’d play him alongside OG and Alexis up front, and I think he can create a lot of havoc and chances for others, but he’s still got some way to go to prove he’s a top-class finisher, even in the Ollie G bracket. But he’s got the potential though, and unlike the Ox, he’s effective in possession and quite an ‘intelligent’ footballer.
Touch wood, this CL exit will be a blessing in disguise. I would never openly throw a CL game, and sometimes you can’t pick and choose the competitions you do well in, but I think there is some logic (especially for us, as we haven’t won the PL in 12 years) in nailing a domestic title first before you focus on Europe, and although it’s painful now, hopefully, come the last 2 months of the season we can really hone in on those key league games, and not be worrying about a CL SF we’re likely to lose against Bayern Munich, for example. The CL can wait another year or two and probably one or two further additions we need to enable us to compete at that top, top level. Until then, as I’ve been saying consistently since August amid victories and defeats, I think we will finish top 2 this season definitely (and why not 1st?!)
*Oh, and I forgot to say, considering the strength of the opposition yesterday, especially with Messi and Neymar starting from wide positions, I thought it was further evidence of just how outstanding our 2 full-backs, Monreal and Bellerin, have been this season. Unsung heroes for us, and maybe should be close to usurping Ozil and Cech on the the Player of the Season polls?
cheers gregoire
first paragraph 35
always like to meet a fan
tell me
which one of my insightful ramones posts last night
rang the biggest chord ?
TTG and Pangloss, well done, good exchange.
@16 – Funny, Cynic π Actually, I don’t think he has anything like 250M to spend, probably nearer 60M but that to be bolstered by the new BPL television money (which will simply float the boat higher as everyone will be more willing to pay more for average product).
IF he did have 250M and IF there was quality talent on sale, I don’t think Arsene would return much of the 250M to the coffers. The big issue is availability of quality product at a reasonable price. Neymar at 150M? – Manure can contemplate that, Arsenal can’t (look at the comparative income streams).
I like Dimitri Payet and I like Mahrez & Kante. Realistic purchases? – Yes, but only if West Ham and Leicester decide their business/success prospects would be bolstered by sale of these talents. We could of-course, as TTG suggested, offer up Theo or Ox as part of a deal.
Despite the gnashing of teeth in many quarters on the inadequacy of our strike force, if Ox, Theo, Campbell, Giroud, Wellbeck and Sanchez had a collective “For Sale” sign put over their heads, I suspect there would be a real wave of interest in their acquisition.
I need a drink.
*pours BB a wee sniffer*
Today’s liquor is either
neutral spirit
or
lemon fandango
herself has just started
on the fandango
so
i can’t give a recommendation
either way
Hmm..what’s that …I’ll have me some!
http://i.imgur.com/YZSwJIi.gifv
π
Great Drinks all around!
Yours were the best post-Barca drinks of all, CBA….Bop.
now you , gregoire.
you
i like !
?
Ttg & Pangloss: What cba said @32. Excellent exchange above. ‘Holics at their best: robust and civil.
Gregoire@35: Agree with you about Ramsey not being used to his best. He needs to be playing ahead of the pivot, not as part of it. What he lacks in speed going forward he more than makes up for in those tireless runs into the box behind defenders. In practice, that means playing him wide right alongside Ozil and Sanchez in the midfield three at the expense of Theo/Joel/the Ox.
Are there any forwards Barca could buy to upgrade MSN?
Good stuff TTG and Pangloss, thank you.
@36 – Monreal would be my player of the year by a long way. He just does his job very quietly and very well. No press profile at all, just gets on with the football.
*blushes*
In other news…
Louis van Gaal issued a bizarre battle cry to his Manchester United players on the eve of their Europa League clash with Midtjylland, telling them to be ‘hungry and horny’ for victory.
‘Desire, hunger, and a lot of times I use the word horny,’ he said to widespread amusement in his pre-match press conference at Old Trafford.
——————-
I’d be very careful about not taking him seriously.. that man has been known to drop his trousers ..
A glimpse of the game plan … http://i.imgur.com/qai76SC.jpg
π
(http://metro.co.uk/2014/05/03/its-true-louis-van-gaal-did-drop-his-trousers-in-front-of-players-during-row-4717373/)
Sidebar note: Citeh, which has been in miserable form, is showing the value of winning the group in CL. Up 0-2 at halftime vs. Dynamo Kiev, which hasn’t played in months.
Just saying.
robust
now there’s a word
like many
it’s thrown about
from a keyboard
seems fine
ebullient perchance
.
but
say it out loud
nope
Gee shucks???
Which one were you, TTG? Robust or civil?
get a room !
What are ye swallying tonight cba? I want some! π
Horny you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTMq7WgI11w
A work of genius I reckon
tonight ‘holic
i am mostly drinking
.
.
.
homemade imperial stout
and
store bought gin and bitter lemon
not
had a good go at the gin yet
i am on thievery
when she fucks off to the bog though
.
DAMN HER CAMEL BLADDER !
said stout
i forgot
is 9.2%
and
is a malty treacly slap on the nose
cynic 57
now that’s a fuckin cracker
but
is it
https://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=1wmpu82dj#/watch?v=JQsg6XXGxXQ
In a contest of robust v. ebullient the latter has to win in all cases unless coffee is in the equation.
i am regularly to be seen
clay pipe blazin
white satin trousers
a-strainin
sashaying through
the streets of belfast
armalite under me arm
and a carefree nature
in me strides
Yup
that’s the way things go down here
MOTHERASSOCIATER !
do you know who i miss here ?
takeabowson
.
funny fucker
All of his stuff is, cba.
This is my favourite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL0uNpoRylg
cynic
god bless ye
that is fuckin brilliant
absolutely fuckin brilliant
that could not
be any better
i’m a lapsed media type
and
i wish i had the inclination
to
wallop stuff together like that
tho
i can say
i never would do it as well
did ye get yer camera fixed ?
Have another one⦠the great thing is, all his mashups are available for download on his website, for free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDf0j3SEseU
It would cost more to service than it is worth, so I haven’t.
herself has fucked off
dunno if that is a good or a
bad thing
cynic
in my previous life
i sat in front of 3 screens
every day
rewarding and soul destroying
.
this fella is good
though
that last one won’t play
http://www.gohomeproductions.co.uk/mp3.html
There’s his download page.
And here’s the final video of the evening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdU6f0uKPNE
Be good, cba π
what are you trying to incinerate ?
I was never civil but I am robust. …..Certainly compared to Theo
oi
nobody was talking to you m’lud
?
wanky tributes to Bowie on telly
Sorry CBA breaking news!
Ox is not robust either. Rumours he may be out three months. Glad Zi waved him goodbye last night
Over to you CBA!
Can’t talk football any more, can we? Wait until the anticipation of Sunday kicks in. This is the most important game we must win at those bastards. And they won’t benefit if we don’t. ?
Sorry to hear that TTG but it’s par for the course for the Ox. A flash or two of promise followed by a long lay-off. Tough on the young fella.
yeah , ‘holic
you got it !
‘holics beer and ham and cheese toastie emporium
is closed for business
I have a choice of three matches on Sunday that aren’t Arsenal and I’m so fucked off with our lot that I might just go to all of them. At the same time.
Nooooo, Cynic, don’t do it. Sunday is critical, and we have to…
Oh… π
You’re right. Leave the house? On a Sunday?
Yep, like I said, once we’ve upgraded half the squad we could really give this CL thing a shake.
As for all the praise for Danny it seems he’s fast becoming our great white (black?) hope. Which is odd considering that for all his industry he has usually proved a great colourless fluffer in front of goal (just 5 Prem goals for us, and never more than 9 in any season for anyone else). So he must be a great assister? Not that either (just 3 Prem assists for us in a career total of 13).
According to the authoritative (?) Brentwood Gazette WHU are preparing to offer Β£15m for our OX. Bite their hands off up to the elbow AW! http://www.brentwoodgazette.co.uk/West-Ham-transfer-news-Hammers-hope-seal/story-28798321-detail/story.html
Oskar
Holic, excellent report.
Looks like a lot of good drinks which will have to be imbibed tomorrow.
The man in yellow ? The Turkish Atkinson, the Dean of the Dardanelles.
It’s sad at such a huge occasion, that a team with such wonderful talent are always indulged in their screaming play acting and cynical fouling as soon as things are not falling easily into place for them.
The antics of Busquets and Alves, and the cynicism of Mascherano and Piquet in particular, make a fantastic team quite hateful.
They are better than us. I have no problem with that. I am fed up to the back teeth with the incompetence of the men in the middle – English and foreign alike.
@Trev: if anything I find the modern referees to be quite excellent on most decisions. When I watch games and complain about a decision the slow-mo with the right angle almost always shows the referee got it right in a split second even after having run quite a lot:
“According to the Premier League End of Season report for 2012-13, the referees actually work harder than the players. Last season referees averaged 176 high speed runs (above 20km/h) whereas players averaged 175. They also performed, on average, 50 sprints (above 25km/h) in each game – which is a massive 64 per cent increase on what it was five years ago.”
From: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2391215/Referees-run-players-99-cent-offsides-correct-claims-report.html
And “The speed of top-level English football has increased by an astonishing 20 per cent in the last five years, according to statistics drawn up by the professional referees’ body. It is putting more pressure on referees because the game has become that much faster in such a short space of time.”
That was 3 years ago: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2107388/Premier-League-referees-right-92-cent-time.html
The same article claim on average 92% of their decisions are correct. If you think about it an 8% error rate is very high, considering it’s an average meaning it can be much higher in some games and the errors are not evenly distributed in one game. I’m ready to bet that after 80 minutes of running your average 40-something ref is not going to have the same lucidity than when the game started.
Referees have upped their game to match the evolution of soccer, be it physically or the institutionalized cheating (what some call the dark arts). And they’re human after all (and like Mike Dean not immune to bias either, or awe for Barca -or United in their prime time). Rather than blame the individuals (without excusing terrible performances) I think we but more importantly FIFA/UEFA have to acknowledge there is so much we can expect a person can do.
The technology is ready to assist referees in many if not most decisions in real-time like offsides and handballs, and by ready I mean working and relatively affordable
The issue is FIFA/UEFA are extremely conservative. They claim they want football to be the same game at every level everywhere. The reality is of course their product is selling well and they have no incentive to act and take risks even with technology advances minimizing them. I understand their reticence to some extent, if the richest get their near-perfect refereeing in place, how will it make the refereeing look in the games where the technology is not available?
Maybe the FA could be bolder but again the incentives are not there yet (for them).
Tine will come eventually but looking at the candidates to take over from Blatter/Platini I’m not holding my breath, the 8% error rate is there for quite a while…
And to pounce further on the Barca cheats: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/12092102/Blood-samples-in-a-Barcelona-freezer-could-spark-biggest-ever-doping-scandal-as-Operation-Puerto-resurfaces.html
Unfortunately as we’ve seen with the destruction of the pusher’s records (Emiliano Fuentes) the authorities have been pretty active in covering it up in the past.
What has Operation Puerto to do with Barcelona, Matt? The Real/Barca connection to Fuentes is scant at best. As a high profile sports doctor at the time (pre 2005 and before cycling doping hit the fan) I’d be surprised if he hadn’t been asked to advise on sports medicine, and that’s all he said he did in football – offer advice, no question of any treatments.
That footballers were also involved was a beat-up concocted by Le Monde.
In any case, it was all more than a decade ago and post Armstrong, Hamilton, Ulrich, Landis et al (all of whom involved most members of their teams) I cannot believe any football clubs are at it en masse like they were. Always possible individuals might risk it, but the drug testing regime is rigid enough that those at the top with the most to lose (footballers in general make squillions more than cyclists) would have to be nuts.
Oskar
The FA Anti-doping Programme for those interested … file:///C:/Users/Me/Downloads/short-guide-to-the-fa-anti-doping-regulations—august-2015.pdf
Oskar
Okay, that didn’t link. Try this … http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/more/anti-doping/new-regulations
Oskar
Oh, it’s just me then, Matt.
I’ll start looking forward to the next time we see Lee Mason or Mike Dean at The Emirates. ??
The bar has re-opened!
Ardbeg 10yo on the bar for ‘happy hour’.
Top post H.
I had to wake up in the small hours to watch a replay of the game two hours after it finished. At the final whistle I turned off the TV, turned off the light and went to bed. But I had no trouble drifting off.
We played well. The difference was taking chances. Ox should have done so much better. The Ramsey of two years ago would have reached that knockdown and toe-poked it in. Giroud should have set up Theo to finish- the only thing I have any confidence in the man to do. Besides picking up his wages.
Oh well. I’d still send the best team available to Camp Nou. It is only one match to play and if the ref makes a horrendous call to give us a penalty and send off a man for them in the third minute then we’d be kicking ourselves if we had not sent the personnel to take advantage. Stranger things have happened. And I don’t think it’s in our nature to accept defeat before a ball is kicked. Go and give it ‘absolutely everything’ and if they win then stand up tall and wish them well and shake them by their cheating hands. ‘Cos that’s how we roll.
Victoria Concordia Crescit
Tev @92. It is not just you.
Matt @87. Why would you bother giving the refs all this technology when they are already so good? I watch a lot of refereeing in the Premier League and I know what I see. The same things as Trev, I reckon.
Watch out- Oskar has his Stats Hat on! I think the hope is that Danny will come back into the team and perform better than he has previously. The early signs have been very encouraging. I will ignore your use of statistics as I always do- I find your gut feeling perspective and opinions far more revealing and worth consideration than some of the unusual reasoning you are able to employ to get stats to show absolutely anything- as long as it is exactly the hypothesis you hoped they would show when you started researching stats.
I agree entirely with Cynic on Monreal. The man is so good at his job. An absolute hero and one I would love to see get a bit more name-chanting, in-your-face love from the gooner faithful.
I have just re-read my last sentence. I’m sticking with it, you bunch of pervs!
Hull City’s FA Cup replay with Arsenal at the KC Stadium will take place on Tuesday, 8 March at 19:00 GMT.
I’d also like to send out a massive thanks to the whole bar for being my life-line to the world of Arsenal. Loads of wonderful opinion, humour and camaradarie, without which I would have enjoyed supporting the club a lot less over the years and especially since I became a regular here. You are all stars.
There are doubles on the bar for all who want them. Please let me help you become slightly drunken stars!
Ahh, BB. Unable to beat Barca on a Tuesday night the football Gods have given us the chance to overturn the mighty Hull City. Tigers to a man they are!
Cheers GSD,
I really wonder what people watch, or see, sometimes.
A referee might get 92%, or whatever, of his decisions right and have an absolute stinker of a game. The more pertinent question is where are those decisions being made.
We saw the Turkish Mike Dean on Tuesday night giving us free kicks in the middle of the pitch where it didn’t matter. When Mascherano launched The Ox into the air – which was the tackle that did the damage – he did nothing. Mascherano played dead for a couple of minutes to reduce his chances of getting a card – and it worked. I can’t remember who Piquet wiped out on our left touchline near the end of the game – same result.
If a referee makes 100 decisions during a game and gets 92 of them right, does that mean he had a good game ?
Not if he made the other 8 in the penalty areas and got them all wrong – no it doesn’t.
@GSD
Football gods indeed… we should maybe change the way we worship for only the Refs and Physios seem to get the benefit!
π
Looking forward to see some proper results with Mid-Jutland and Fiorentina.
Oh, and who knew ?
Refs have started running faster than Fatty Dowd ! ?? ?
We should have a league for Refs.. the worse three gets relegated to the Championship.
Van Gaal has commented on the similarities between FC Midtjylland and his own team, in the build up to the Europa League encounter at Old Trafford
——–
He’s beginning to grow more likeable… π π π
Bath @ 93 Could you stretch that to a happy 2 hours π
GSD @ 97 Cheers for the drink….a good follow on to Bath’s round π
Trev on refs….agree is the importance of the x per cent they do get wrong that often is quite pertinent. We got many innocuous calls given by the ref on Tuesday, but the tackle on The Ox and Jordi Alba’s semi head butt on OG totally without repercussions.
BB@ 103 If Van Flat Face is suggestion his team are at the same level as FC Midjtylland, then how the might have fallen.
Now we are on a session, another round of your choice on the bar for those still standing. π
Well in BB.
It’s time for shots! Barkeep, line em up, if you would be so kind.
Suppose it would be the most advantageous for Arsenal today if only one of our rivals loses that it should be Manchester United so as to deepen their funk ahead of the game on Sunday. But if Sp@@s and Liverpool should lose too then so much the merrier. Roll on the continentals. π
BB. Spot on @102.
I would prefer Spurs to lose at the semi finals stage. They will have a few extra games to play and given their high intensity style it will surely adversely affect their PL chances. They looked knackered in their FA Cup loss to Crystal Palace as they had played Fiorentina a couple of days earlier in the Europa League. I think the long campaign has started to catch up with them.
A few doubts creeping into little spud brains?
Martial injured in warmup. Any possible better start? π
The Law Of Murphy striking again at ManU?
π
We could use Mid-Jutland’s no.27…
π
@Trev @ Gunnausaurus: I’m not trying to defend Mike Dean, who’s provenly worsen match outcomes for Arsenal: http://discoveringstatistics.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-referees.html
I’m just saying that the referee’s job is hard and they’re really good at it. And as I said 8% is very high, almost one in 10 decisions in not correct. Yes there’s a lot of residual errors but it is human nature.
&Oscar: surely you’re joking? The judge ordered Fuentes not to name his customers in other sports and had his records and blood sample destroyed. There are eyewitnesses saying they saw footballers from both Madrid and Barca visiting him. Are you trying to claim he was doping only the cyclists but not track athletes nor footballers? As for the trial against Le Monde in Spain, not in France, it was the same farce as the trial against Fuentes where the judge decided that having only one source for Fuentes records was not enough.
And for Barcelona, the team doctor when Guardiola was managing them? Ramon Segura. They worked together at Brescia. That’s where Guardiola was playing when he was caught doping with steroids, the case that was swept under the rug a few years go.
@BB/102: Excellent idea, you should submit it to the FA!!!
Matt, I’m saying there is zero evidence that Barca/Real footballers were customers of Fuentes. If you have evidence I suggest you inform the authorities.
Oskar
GSD … you say the hope is that Danny will come back into the team and perform better than he has previously and I’m sure we all say amen to that. But he flattered to deceive on so many occasions previously I prefer to wait for a pile of goals and/or assists. One swallow doesn’t make a winter. And when the stats inform few goals and fewer assists, you think that isn’t relevant to a centre forward? Ollie G is miles better in the role, and I’d swap him in a minute for someone of real world class.
I must say Danny certainly looks fitter than I expected after all the time spent of the physio table. Or is the shirt a size too small?
Oskar
Good to see Man United used up their entire weekly goal allotment in one swoop. Whiff of clean sheet wafting out the window?
Welbz bursting the shirt at the seams it seems, Oskar. π
@Oskar: There is evidence, 2 sheets from Fuentes records. The judge in Madrid rejected it, as expected from the spanish legal system when it comes to doping in Spain.
Like GSD I have high hopes for Welbeck 2.0. No wonder Wenger praised his efforts during his rehab, he must have spent a massive amount of time in the gym. I’ll be happy to see him start against the mancs.
Rumour, innuendo and historical speculation, Matt, all more than a decade ago. Zero evidence to link anyone playing today.
Oskar
Indeed there is no evidence when evidence is systematically rejected or destroyed.
I must say I find it baffling that you defend it.
Oskar Baffling? Does he work for FIFA?
Or for the spanish FA’s whose president (Astiazaran) from 2005 until 2013 was Real Sociedad’s head during their self-admitted doping collaboration with Fuentes. Yes, that’s another innuendo.
Trev
You are right that the ref on Tiesday was very measured in his officiating but ( and I have thought long and hard about this) favoured Barca consistently in key areas. On Saturday Desn gave us nothing . In the Leicester game Atkinson clearly realised his bias and reversed it in the second half. I genuinely thought the referee on Tuesday was appalling . Incompetent but with a twist of extra malevolence .
Talked to several non- Gooners tonight , all of whom felt that we did better than any other current English dude could have done until we conceded
Big game Sunday!
In most Barca games I’ve seen, not only against us, most if not all refs “forget” to blow the whistle for some of their fouls when similar ones are systematically called for their opponent. It’s not too dissimilar from Ferguson’s era at Manchester United.
I wonder which part plays the biggest role, their aura or the dark arts?
Arsene on Barcelona players going down and shouting, all of them: https://streamable.com/e748
Hey Oscar.
While you are in “Stats” mode,take a look at your golden boy Theo – 2 goals in 21 matches.
He’s a forward,right?
My golden boy, IF? I’d swap Theo tomorrow for any one of several wingers I have named in recent months here. In the meantime he is the best we have for the RW position, but rarely seems to get the opportunity to start there.
Oskar
How many of the last 21 Theo appearances were starts?
From a quick look, unless my eyes deceive me, he started 14 of those 21 games, and two of his sub appearances were very brief. So if you want to slaughter the guy for not scoring after coming on with no warm up and getting an injury, or for having the sheer audacity not to score after coming on in the 89th minute, you go right ahead.
I, on the other hand, will recall that his two goals came against Manchester City and Leicester, our title rivals.
I also recall the part he played in our trouncing of Manchester United and in beating Bayern Munich.
He’s not playing well at all, but picking up on a stat posted without too much thought on another blog and parroting it is a bit weak.
Would we like to talk about the woeful form and scoring record of Alexis, ‘three goals in fifteen’, Sanchez or Olivier ‘five in fifteen’ Giroud?
How about Mesut Ozil’s six in thirty-two? Ramsey’s five in thirty-one?
Theo Walcott is currently Arsenal’s third top goal scorer
With six goals.
It’s a team thing.
Too many, Cynic.
If it’s not the usual individuals, such as carting Flamini all over the coals for the penalty when it was Mertesacker’s fault 100%, it is all down to the refs.
Look at the other players, look at the team. A team currently nine goals worse off than fucking Spurs, having scored six less.
Look at the positions your most hated player plays in and where he has been most productive, then look at the options on the right and tell me Joel Campbell, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain and Aaron Ramsey are better options if you’re looking at goals as the main function of the right sided player.
Then listen to my mocking laughter as I leave the bar for today…
Enjoy your build up to ManYoo. It’s going to be almost as fun as watching a video of us playing Chelsea for the last ten years.
Some really interesting and thought provoking stuff above.
Matt, I agree with you re the officials. I think they have improved. The trouble is that we have made their job a lot more difficult. Every player that takes the field is prepared to cheat to gain an advantage. We are no different. It’s a sad state of affairs but that’s just life. We have all the technology in the world but use virtually none of it. Sky will show you the same incident from 40 different camera angles seconds after the incident. Somehow we still expect the man in the middle to get it right all of the time making use of none of it. Until we start to assist the officials I really don’t see how we can continue to apportion blame.
TTG again gets it right for me re our transfer policy. I’m not going to go over old ground but our continued lack of activity will continue to cause us issues. I was criticised some years ago for suggesting we should make signings. I find various comparisons made then as ridiculous as those made today. Back then it was, spend money? Do you want us to end up like Leeds? Now it’s, look at what LVG has wasted? Neither has any relevance to us or how we conduct our business.
Board members have stated there are substantial funds available. One stated that we had Β£200 million available. Whatever the figure, I’m happy to accept that there are substantial funds available.
The problem with not investing over the last few seasons in my opinion will come back to haunt us. Trying to do stuff on the cheap only works for so long before it all catches up with you. Again there were those who seemed to believe that the increase in sponsorship and TV money would result in cheaper ticket prices? That was never going to happen in my opinion. All that has happened, and will continue to happen is that transfer fees will rapidly rise along with the wages players are paid. In my opinion the better value for money was to be had several seasons ago. I said it then and stick by it now.
This season is the best chance we have had to win the league. With the changes that will take place at City, Chekski and probably at United it may well be the best chance we have for some time. I would expect all three to be very much stronger than this season.
The debate above about various members of the squad is also interesting. What is abundantly clear is that many would now seem to think that several players are just not good enough to take us to the next level. All have their merits but very few have that extra special quality. The big problem with that is this. If we fail to raise our game then how long do the likes of Sanchez and Ozil hang around for? RVP was crucified for leaving and for his comments. He clearly saw greener grass. How long before others do the same?
Oh yeah, there was a game on Tuesday night? Nice report H. I’m not sure anyone had any real expectation that we would be good enough. So, with the exception of a miracle we will bow out of a completion we spend all year trying to qualify for at the last 16 stage yet again. That fact alone you would hope would set a few alarm bells ringing.
Just heard on the radio that we are actually favourites for Sunday. I not sure I remember the last time that happened. Another one of many must wins.
Onwards and upwards.
It’s funny. All of those listed above by many quoting their poor scoring records are all the players that we miss tremendously when out injured? Not good enough one minute. The next it’s all the fault of the injury crisis.
Perhaps the time has arrived when more and more will actually ask the question? How good are these players? Can they take us to the next level?
Steve re officials. “The trouble is that we have made their job a lot more difficult. Every player that takes the field is prepared to cheat to gain an advantage. We are no different. Itβs a sad state of affairs but thatβs just life.”
I just can’t agree with that at all. The referees have sure done a number on anyone thinking like that.
They officiate matches in such a way that cheating is consistently rewarded. Who is to blame for that? They are. Entirely.
Then they get people defending the inept decisions they do make because it is really hard for them as players are cheating- and that that is, apparently, just part of life. What? Hello? Hello? Is this thing on?
Try this on for size. All diving punished. Microphones on the refs and any foul/ abusive language on the pitch to be punished. All unsporting gestures punished. All dangerous tackles treated differently to red cards given for completely unequal offences (like accidently and without any risk of injuring anyone fouling the last man) and given longer bans. All of these judged retrospectively on merit, regardless of the in-game view of the ref. And make referees more accountable in explaining their decisions- not necessarily in the media but to an independent panel (explanations do not necessarily have to prove a ref was right or wrong but would help to give a better understanding of how decisions are made on the field in real time and thus what measures/training etc. might be helpful to improve them). Bring that little lot into the game, which would make it extremely disadvantageous to cheat and then we will see if players continue to do so. If you think they would and that it really is just part of life then we will have to disagree. I think it is not a part of life- it is part of the current setup which fosters and encourages it and then complains about the fact. With the complicity of some fans.
On the language thing- in what environment in the world is respect engendered by a culture that accepts and condones the repeated use of insulting, vulgar and agressive language between human beings? You would try to stop it in the playground, why not here? This stuff is just so basic, so fundamental to the way humans interact, that it shouldn’t need to be spelled out. It’s just another example of the way that everyone in football acts like they live in a bubble outside all rules and regualtions and that this is perfectly fine. When this goes on at every level of the game which of us can really judge FIFA for doing exactly the same thing, but on a larger scale?
Also, how can it be that refs get given a load of slack for poor decisions because they are made in real time but we also have a rule stating that if the ref has seen an incident in real time then it cannot be reviewed? Contradictory? Just a tad. Helpful to anyone, including referees? Not at all.
Every individual in the game- players, managers, fans, journos, officials and everyone else needs to take personal responsibilty for upholding behaviour that they deem acceptable and rejecting behaviour that they don’t. Have some morals and then act according to them. The name for this is not ‘football’. The name for this is ‘life’.
Steve. On the quality of players.
We need some better ones if we want to go to the next level. We have players who may improve but they aren’t suddenly going to become Messi. Upgrades needed in the Summer if we want to challenge in Europe.
Good points Steve @136
Great points GSD @138
“They officiate matches in such a way that cheating is consistently rewarded. Who is to blame for that? They are. Entirely.”
GSD. You may have misunderstood my point. An ex player when discussing a penalty award came out with the most awful of phrases. “There was contact, he is entitled to go down.” Really, is that what the game has become? Apparently it has.
Every player is prepared to cheat. Whether it’s pinching 5 yards at a throw in, claiming a goal kick when they know it’s a corner or any other form of cheating. The game has accepted that as the norm. Personally I hate it.
I would fully support all of the measures you list to cut it out and to improve the standards. Many of your comments I have suggested previously here. I have said for some time now that controversial incidents should all be reviewed after games. It won’t take that long. Those where there is clear evidence that cards should have been issued then do so retrospectively. As you say, it won’t be long before it stops. However, the powers that be don’t seem to want to take these steps. Until that changes then cheats will prosper. Bring some honesty and integrity to the table and people may be able to take more of the moral high ground. We can’t have a situation where a player is “entitled to go down” and then moan about a soft penalty.
I agree with a lot if your post but cheating is the responsibility of the individual and their team. I can not accept that players cheating is the responsibly of the officials.
Re players. I don’t see any player anywhere being the next Messi. But we do need to find replacements for those that have never really been replaced.
“how can it be that refs get given a load of slack for poor decisions because they are made in real time but we also have a rule stating that if the ref has seen an incident in real time then it cannot be reviewed? Contradictory? Just a tad.”
Could this partly account for the Premier League’s incredibly high television ratings? The viewers, the ones who get to see the slow motion from all those angles, get to feel superior to the idiotic referee.
Pure chaos.
I really don’t think you guys are disagreeing at all. The players are incentivised to cheat by the way the game is being refereed. Cheating is part of today’s football culture as a result of permissive refereeing and is accepted by pundits, commentators and the FA. The only way to end this spiral into mendacity and irrelevance is to bring in sanctions for it. Cheats should be hammered.
Pundits like Owen who last night explained what Lingard should have done to ensure that his dive resulted in a penalty for Manure rather than the correct yellow card for his dive should be sacked for bringing the game and his TV channel into disrepute in the same way as if he had coined the phrase used by Atkinson some years ago that saw him vanish to the outer margins of broadcasting.
Until referees and the FA and the TV channels adopt a moral position the cheating will continue. The phrase used yesterday in reference to Savile and Hall, ‘the star is more important than your moral code’ could equally be applied to football today. The culture has to change or the game will become as irrelevant to sport as wrestling became.
Europa League round of 16 draw
Liverpool v Manchester United
Borussia Dortmund v Tottenham
AHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAHHAahaHHAHAHAH!
Puuuuuuurrrrfect!
π
I don’t think referees allow or permit cheating. Many are conned. There is a win at all cost attitude.
There was more than one person in the bar after Barca that said the first Barca goal should never have happened. Why? Because he should have been taken out before he crossed the half way line. Deliberately committing a foul of that nature is cheating. We all know yet many are happy to advocate it.
My only problem is that I believe that football needs to put its own house in order before we moan too much about the standard of officials. If you are prepared to cheat to gain an advantage then don’t moan when it happens to you.
Referees permit cheating in many ways. They allow blatant grabbing of opponents in the penalty area at corners. Many conspire with the ‘contact therefore entitled to go down in the box’ culture. They fail to show a yellow card for ungentlemanly conduct when confronted by foul mouthed rants from petulant millionaires who endeavour to influence them. Grabbing and pushing have become standard practice and only the most overt is sanctioned, rarely ever at corners.
All of these abuses would be ended by a systematic policy to award a free kick/pen and show a yellow card.
There is indeed a win at all costs attitude and this has been accepted as standard practice at the highest level of the game.
Thus we do suffer by not adopting the strategy that a Barca, Real, Chav, Manure, Italian or Argentinian defender would have done when confronted by the breakaway that resulted in Barca’s first goal. Most of those defenders would have readily taken a yellow by fouling the player on the ball at the halfway line (if he could catch him, which is debatable on that break).
If we fail to raise our game then how long do the likes of Sanchez and Ozil hang around for?
It doesn’t matter if they are in the group of players we have who don’t have that “extra special quality”.
Some may say I’m mad to even raise that possibility, but this team is not functioning properly on the chance making nor the chance taking front. Every player should be looked at and questions asked about their ability to do it when it matters.
In my opinion.
Again, perhaps I didn’t explain myself too well.
The cuddling, shirt pulling in the box is a prime example. This is a culture that has become allowed by football. People moan about consistency and the lack of. I for one would love to see penalties given each time it happens. However, you can hear the comments now form the masterminds that are today’s pundits?. “You don’t normally see those given.”
Officials I would suggest follow a brief given to them by their employer. I for one would love to see changes made where refs were told to award a foul each time it happened. As others have said, it would cause 2 weeks of carnage before being eradicated.
Coquelin should 100% have taken a card on Neymar on the halfway line in the build up to the goal. The reason he didn’t is less likely to be due to moral principle (we all watched Kos rightly clean out a Leicester player in the build up to the Vardy penalty – no second thoughts), and more likely that he hadn’t clocked how exposed our defence was at that moment, with bellerin up the wing and Mertesacker in no man’s land.
I know others disagree, but I think it was a bad goal to concede. I would also question Kos’ decision to go out to Suarez – with per on the deck and Bellerin committed forward the sole remaining CB cannot afford to be taken out of the game by one pass from the flank. If he does go out there, he needs to do so with a view to winning the ball, cleanly or otherwise. Once Barca got a 2 on 1 with Messi as the spare man the goal was all but conceded.
We have to learn to sniff danger a little bit better. I don’t think we’d be averse to a strategic foul, we simply didn’t recognise the need for one in the above instance.
I should add that otherwise (and apart from the daft pen) I thought we played very well, no complaints.
COYG
I got locked out earlier but i would Have posted this…
Steve. A pundit is much more likely to explain why a referee’s decision is okay, ie. ‘the player is entitled to go down’, ‘you can see why the ref has given it’, etc, than he is to stick his neck on the line and say ‘ the ref is wrong- that should have been a pen’ after a decision has not been given after the same incident (dive). So i think it starts with the refs.
Players will not stop cheating whilst it is in their interests to do so. That, I’m afraid, is a part of life.
And for all my Utopian moralising about good behaviour a dose of realism is in order, of course. Which of us doesn’t scream abuse at the ref, the opposition players and fans and anyone else who annoys us on a matchday?
Unfortunately I don’t really believe people have the will to make this change for themselves (add it to my long list of gripes with modern football). However I am optimistic enought to think that if good behaviour can be demonstrated to be for the benefit of the game and everyone involved with it then they may allow themselves to be led. So again, back to the referees.
GSD
I think we agree with almost everything apart from whose responsibility it is to eradicate heating and the like. My view is simple. If we are going to allow/condone cheating then we have no right to moan ifs referee is conned and gets a decision wrong.
Like you I am very much getting towards the end of my tether with the professional game. Cheating and the way officials are treated is just one of several reasons why. Until those in charge adopt several of the suggestions that you want put in place I fear it will never change. Personally I have had enough of it.
I agree, GSD. Human nature must be understood in constructing and implementing the laws of the game. The scale of the prizes are such that every player will cheat if he can get away with it or in the hope of getting away with it. Referees should take a hawkish view of every incident from that perspective.
Referees cannot get 100% of decisions right but should err on the side of preventing cheating even if that inevitably means they occasionally do not give the correct decision. If the default position of each player is to cheat, the default position of the referee should be to suspect each player of cheating. As each referee will be making a subjective judgement in real time, video review of contentious episodes would enhance consistency.
Players would quickly get the hang of the idea that grappling in the penalty area results in a pen and a card and not trying to stay on your feet when tackled would result in a card and a FK for the opposition.
As Steve suggests such a draconian approach would cause bedlam for a couple of weeks and then we would see a different game closer to the original ideal.
However I’m not sure that it would be adopted universally.
Steve. I haven’t got much idea what the pundits say. I never listen to them. I haven’t watched the half-time ‘analysis’ in years. Because it is crap.
Why should I make any sort of judgment on what is or is not appropriate behaviour on a football pitch based on what these buffoons say? Who cares? I know what I’m seeing. Why should they affect this discussion in any way?
Robbie Savage would tell you that Yaya Sanogo is the reincarnation of Eusabio if he thought it would play well with the viewers… And if the man with his hand up Robbie’s arse who operates him did the right finger actions. I’m supposed to give two hoots am I? I think I’ll pass.
Get the refs to stop making decisions based on the reactions (hystrionics) of players and instead based on the action of the player penalised. Do that consistently and these morons will pretty soon pick up the ‘strong refereeing, good to see in the English game’ narrative that would play so well with the British fan. Make it a worldwide marketing point. The Brits are reknowned globally for their sense of fair play. It’s not exactly a hard sell is it? And you point out more regularly than any of us that we’re all just customers and football is just product. And you’re not wrong. It’s about time that started working for us. So do some marketing…
If you want to watch a bunch of whingers throw themselves to the floor and pretend to be hurt then La Liga is for you. But if you want real men going hell-for-leather for 90 minutes then The Premiership is your only choice.
Cue pictures of any Spanish game you like and the typical antics involved, spliced with theatrical clips of children throwing themselves to floor and faking injuries. The caption reads ‘Would you teach your kids this?.. The Premiership- Only for adults.’ And I’m no ad man and knocked that up in the time it took to type it. Why are we doing the same things that other cultures genuinely consider ‘clever play’ when we don’t really believe in them? Which is also why we’ll never win at that game. Forget the Dark Arts. Let’s bring football into the light.
Steve.
We agree on much to do with this issue. We come from different standpoints in the ways we express it and the nuances that we place extra import on. Great fun in the bar as usual! Drinks all round- this is thirsty work!
baff. Make sure yours is a double- you’ve been spouting sense all day mate.
Steve @ 151.
What have you got against heating? Wink.
Bath. Your last sentence is spot on and highlights massively the problem. The sad fact is that cheating has become an acceptable part of the game. I can’t see that ever changing now. All I’m saying is that if we accept that players will dive/cheat etc and that somehow this is now okay, you have to show a degree of sympathy and leniency towards the officials. We can’t tolerate one of our own conning an official whilst executing an opponent for something similar. Even more, we should not be slaughtering and blaming officials when we have been conned out of a result by an action that if we were the perpetrators of, then we would be condoning.
A cold blast never did anyone any harm GSD. Character building.
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BBC website pairs Sasha Baron Cohen and Mark Lawrenson in the Premier League predictions segment this week, appropriately enough as both are somewhat removed from reality. Ominously, they both predict Arsenal to win.
Mike Dean is the fourth official which can only mean one thing: Craig Pawson, the referee, will get injured and Dean will come on.
hey Cynic
loosen up – I am not “slaughtering’ anyone!
Even if Theo only started 14 of those 21 games,is it not still a poor return from a forward?
I have no beef with Theo (although I dont believe he is “the answer”).
The main thrust of my point was merely this ; Oskar is very fond of using stats when it suits him to do so _ to “prove” his point,so to speak.
Usually,it is to highlight the deficitiances of others.
I am merely pointing out that Stats can be used ,in isolation,to “prove” almost anything.
I dont have an agenda.
But I am anti-bullshit.
Steve @ 151. On reflection I would say this is a nice idea- us being morally superior to all other teams despite what it costs us. But you can’t have it both ways- do you want us to win or not? If being the best we can be means winning the most football matches then we have to do certain Dark things whilst it is advantageous to do so. I have often said that I’d be happy to win nothing if we could behave like this, but I, expectedly, find myself in a serious minority as most people, very reasonably, point out that it is wishful thinking on my part and that they’d rather just win anyway. We seem to have swapped arguments somewhere down the line!
But if we want to win matches we can’t cede this entire area of advantage to every other team…
In a gunfight the bloke who puts his gun down first gets killed.
Unless the ref takes them all away at the same time, of course.
The last paragraph of 151 is spot on. They’ll do nothing about any of this.
It is like they don’t care how many good ideas we post. The fools.
The discussion above frequently treats “cheating” as an absolute, which it is not.
There is a difference between shoving someone lightly while waiting for a corner to come in and attempting to break the leg of an opponent. Both are technically “cheating”, but to say that an acceptance of ANY cheating must also mean an acceptance of ALL cheating is a logical fallacy.
I’m sure we all break the speed limit from time to time. That doesn’t mean that we condone murder. Nor does it mean that we forfeit the right to legitimately criticise the police.
I don’t personally believe in moaning about the officials after each and every game, but it’s hard to come away from some of our results (say, Chelsea away) and feel that they’ve approached even moderate competency, which is naturally frustrating.
Just realised that the end of the post above somehow got chopped off…
It’s absolutely a question of extent. Some “cheating” is natural within the game, and doesn’t necessary harm the experience. When cheating becomes endemic, and particularly where one or both teams adopt it as a primary tactic, the spectacle is ruined. Likewise, the officials – if we’re coating them after every game, then that says more about us than them. But occasionally they’re genuinely completely shite, and that should be called out (loudly).
Basically: everything in moderation. I know how much the regulars in here love moderation ; )
Cheating is diving to win a penalty or feigning injury.
Giving a foul away to prevent a goal isn’t cheating, it is common sense.
I can’t think of another football site with such quality from its contributors, I’m proud to be a `holic! Not much more to say after Steve, GSD and others…
In the end I agree with most that the fault lies with the refereeing standards. If the FA had a thread of moral fiber left they’d at least show intent to address the problem, which they don’t.
The lawyer who just got elected at the head of FIFA has made it clear that the priority is to catch up on the income “shortfall” from their previsions, so expect more teams to participate in international tournaments and all things football to become more mercantile even. There was a glimmer of hope with Platini, being a true football-lover however corrupt he was, but it’s all gone.
The problem at large as said above is essentially social. Football is the most popular sport and it’s teaching kids worldwide that cheating/bad behaviour is not only OK but desirable to win.
@165/Cynic and 164/N7 Gooner: Exactly. Taking advantage of the rules is common sense. Taking advantage of the refereeing is cheating.
I discovered that the FA pays its referees somewhat less than the other top European leagues. In England they have a base salary of of Β£38,500 to Β£42,000 a year and get Β£1,170 (per match) (Β£475 for the assistants) whereas in Spain they get Β£4,700 (Β£1550 for the assistants).
In the 2013-14 season the highest paid was Howard Webb who made around Β£120,000 as he officiated the most games in the season while some of the other top referees in England also notched up between Β£90,000 to Β£100,000, while other referees average income was around Β£60,000 to Β£70,000 last year.
http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-referee-salaries/
To be honest I thought they were making twice as much or more considering it requires a lot of experience (acquired earning much less) to get there and they have to give it up approaching 50. Maybe this is part of the problem too.
I sympathise with all the opinions expressed above about the “state of the game” (including those which directly contradict others with which I also sympathise) and I don’t wish to compliment the FA, but am I alone in remembering the season a few years ago (it might have been around 20 years ago, so maybe I am), when the authorities announced a crackdown on bad behaviour at the beginning of the season?
Referees were instructed to issue cautions in case of various offences that had hitherto been seen as acceptable. (I can’t remember what they were – deliberate handball? violent fouls?) Anyway, the referees, bless them, duly issued a lot of yellow cards and several players were sent off and suspended as a result.
Cue the newspapers to start complaining loudly about the referees “killing the game” and calling on the FA to withdraw their instructions, which they duly did.
My point? Whilst the referees aren’t blameless, and the players aren’t blameless, and the FA isn’t blameless, neither is the public, or to put it another way, the fans. If you REALLY think something should be done about it, don’t just bleat about it on blogs and social media, organise! Write to the FA calling upon them to make changes. Write to the papers insisting that they campaign for change. Prepare some letters and give them to your fellow fans down the pub and the people in the seats next to you at the match.
Me? I accept it’s a problem, but I don’t feel that strongly. I am actually more concerned with inconsistency of referees and inconsistency between referees.
COYG
Loving the quality of the drinks this week. Thank you all, so very much.
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couldn’t agree more , big man
i really outdid meself
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