Arsene, Forget Being Selfless And Let Us Celebrate Your Achievements, Not Fight Over Them
Feb 17th, 2017 by 'holic
The car was in for an annual service and MOT today, so I got to have a holiday and catch the Arsene Wenger press conference live. I’m not quite sure what people were expecting to hear, or rather I probably do, but it was never going to be more than a demonstration of him putting on a brave face and trying to get people to focus on future games, not recent horror stories.
He confirmed that he had said this week that he would make a decision about his future in March or April. Whether he will share that with the wider public then or at the end of the season remains unclear. A friend who knows him far better than I ever will thinks it will be the latter as Arsene would never want it to be about him, and I understand that. Arsene remains totally committed to the club and his beliefs about how the game should be played.
There are those who wish that he was a little less principled in this instance and give the supporters an opportunity to reunite and show their appreciation for the amazing things he has achieved at our club in a stay that will stretch to nigh on 21 years. Perhaps he gave us a hint with his insistence that he would be managing somewhere next season, even if it were not at Arsenal.
There followed on social media the demonstration that the divide is still very much in evidence, but changing somewhat. The belligerence of those who would want him gone is still stark and saddening. However there is a softening on the other side as a number of those who remained staunchly loyal have come to accept that now the time probably has arrived for the ultimate change to be made.
As one of those who have turned through 180 degrees I have to say I have done so with a very heavy heart. There is still that tiny forlorn hope that the players who have let Arsene down so badly finally realise their potential in the final three months of the season. Thirteen consecutive Premier League victories would take us very close but it is difficult to imagine this group rediscovering form and confidence for more than a handful of games before weakly submitting again.
More realistic would be a third FA Cup triumph in four years. Four more wins would deliver that and it is incredible to think that some would deny him even that. Those who do should take a long hard look at themselves. If you want Arsenal not to win trophies because you want the manager to go then you are not what most people would consider to be an Arsenal supporter.
Even if we do end the season in style however it would be better for it to be a glowing celebration of Arsene’s tenure. What he achieved in his first decade will always mark him out as this club’s greatest ever manager, and that he managed the transition from Highbury until the renegotiations of the major sponsorships in 2013 will also stand the test of time. He has had the chance to spend the club’s new wealth but we appear to be no nearer to seriously challenging for the major prizes than we were then.
We’re not entitled to win anything, but the club made that momentous move to ensure we could continue to compete at the highest level. We haven’t made that step up though. When Ivan Gazidis said we would compete with the likes of Bayern Munich he must have prayed we would not be humiliated by them in consecutive seasons this far down the line. It’s time for fresh ideas in the boardroom. It’s time to say thank you and good luck to the amazing man who brought us to this point.
It’s time to write the next chapter, painful as that may be.
157 Responses to “Arsene, Forget Being Selfless And Let Us Celebrate Your Achievements, Not Fight Over Them”
Well written, Guv’nor, though obviously with a heavy heart.
We are indeed not entitled to win anything. No club is. Most clubs don’t most seasons. Just as most clubs don’t get to play in the Champions League each season. As someone said in the previous drinks, you only miss it when its gone.
Thanks Ned. Never thought when I started this nonsense that I would ever write anything like that about the boss. 🙁
Holic, a quite superbly written piece.
I know what it means to you to have to say all that. I cannot disagree with a single word.
I took this week off work and it has been a pleasure to be able to get a bit more involved in here again.
The standards you have always insisted on have stood this bar in very good stead in this of all weeks.
Thank you, maestro !
Sobering Goonerholic! ?
AFCOF!!!
Thanks Trev. Good to have you back.
If you want Arsenal not to win trophies because you want the manager to go then you are not what most people would consider to be an Arsenal supporter.
I agree with that but I can also see the fear that if we were to win the FA Cup, he’d see that as a reason to sign another extension, and it would be the worst thing he could do if the future of the club is really uppermost in his mind.
I think he would want to stay even if the unthinkable happened on Monday, and what’s worse is I reckon he’d get his way.
Good to read such carefully and well crafted views – in stark contrast to the claptrack to which I’ve just listened on Sky.
But when the new guy comes in the whole media circus will start again with new negative lines of attack. They’ll start a new clock – ‘how many years since Arsenal was in the Champions league’.
The fact is it is very hard to compete against moneybags ManU, obscene oil funded ManC and a Chelsea funded by a dodgy ‘oligarch’ from a kleptocratic state (plus the Spanish duopoly and the German monopoly) who get furst pick of thr best players. Arsene’s crime has been to keep us ‘there or thereabouts’ consistently, unlike Liverpool or Spurs nor crashing and burning like Leeds, Villa etc.
It is time for Arsenal to go, but I am still terrified of getting what we have all ended up wishing for.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-news-arsene-wenger-press-conference-full-transcript-a7585241.html
Well done ‘Holic.
Good stuff, Holic. Wise build Paddy London. If (and I think it is now when) the boss goes, I sincerely hope he wins old big ears with his new team – he will be much sought after. I sincerely hope also that he doesn’t touch the England job with whatever ‘barge pole’ is in French.
A fine piece of writing and like you I seem to have been through every emotion as far as Arsene is concerned, from love to loathing to indifference, I love him for everything he has done for Arsenal and will always do so but…. it’s obvious that sadly his time here is now done. I have always been of the opinion that we have to be very careful what we wish for but it seems he is no longer able to get the best from his players. And while talking about the players they need to admit their part in his demise and I hope after the totally lacklustre performance they produced on Wednesday, each and every one of them has taken a long hard look in the mirror and if I were one of them, I wouldn’t have much liked what I saw looking back at me!
“If you want Arsenal not to win trophies because you want the manager to go then you are not what most people would consider to be an Arsenal supporter.”
That comment stung me because I consider myself to be an Arsenal supporter but I also want us to lose against Sutton. Please allow me to explain why and I apologise in advance for the lengthy post…
On the face of it you are right. But we are in a unique situation where it’s not that black and white. We find ourselves supporting a club where the manager has all the power and effectively decides when he will leave. Therefore if winning the FA Cup allows the deluded Wenger to convince himself that he can still take this club forward and signs a new 3 year contract, is that REALLY the best thing for the club in the long term?
I think not.
We have been here before don’t forget. Winning the 2014 FA Cup against Hull convinced Wenger to sign on for another 3 years. He more or less admitted if we hadn’t won, he’d have walked away. Then what might have happened? We probably would have ended up with Klopp or Guardiola or even Conte. Instead, Wenger stayed and we were condemned to 3 more years of underachievement, repeating the same errors he cannot or will not address and which the whole world saw on Wednesday night, reducing us to a laughing stock once again. The piece de resistance of his current tenure was of course a failure to overhaul little Leicester last season when the fates had transpired to practically gift us the league had we had a more competent manager.
It’s time for a change as you admit, and the only way that will come is from fan pressure on Wenger. Not from the board, from the fans. Winning matches eases the pressure, losing them cranks it up. The pressure on him would be immense should we lose to Sutton and it’s for that reason and that reason only I want us to lose on Monday evening. It’s not out of spite (I love Wenger actually, for all the reasons you gave in the article about his achievements in his first decade including managing the transition from Highbury) but because I realise it’s best for the club for him to leave asap.
If I thought for one second he could turn this around and make us the force we should be, I would be behind him 100%. But, rightly or wrongly, I convinced myself a long time ago that will never happen and sadly I have seen nothing to change my mind since.
Does that make me a bad supporter? I don’t think so, because I have the best interests of the club at heart. Wenger’s comments today about definitely managing somewhere next season, be it at Arsenal or somewhere else, show me he will do all he can to hang on to power. If that happens, Sanchez will most likely go in the summer and the toxic atmosphere between Gooners that has resulted in fights on the terraces will continue.
Enough is enough. The grass may not be greener on the other side, but I’m ready for us to find out.
Come on Sutton. 🙁
I don’t think losing to Sutton would make the slightest bit of difference to what he does, there’d be some way for him to stay on no matter what.
No way do I want us to lose THAT tie. It would be Wrexham or York to the power of infinity if that happened, and it would make no difference.
Gooner Steve. If you honestly think that losing to Sutton is in the best interests of the club then I would respectfully suggest that you are deluded and misguided. By all means want change but wanting us to lose to Sutton to facilitate that is not what I would call the actions of a true supporter.
Support your club. We constantly moan about the side not having a back bone? It might just be time for some fans to rediscover theirs.
Really excellent piece H. Very well written.
For me the problems go a lot deeper than the manager. I do feel that he had almost been forced to take on far too much due to the lack of actual support from the board. A board that boasts a clueless owners and 3 members well into their 70’s. The only 2 under 70 are Gazidid and Stanley’s offspring. Whilst the time for change might well be here, I have very little confidence in this board being able to deliver a suitable and competent successor.
I still maintain that the biggest error this club made was getting shot of David Dein. I don’t think Arsene has quite been the same since.
I’m glad that Arsene came out fighting at the press conference. As you have said, there can be no one who can deny his passion and love for this club. If this is the end then people should be nothing but grateful for what he had achieved and the journey we have been taken on.
Good luck to whoever takes over. If they get anywhere near to Arsene’s achievements then they will be doing well. I mean that both on and off the pitch.
I wonder if the current board would have the sense/balls to employ Dein as an adviser for this task, or even if Ivan has the sense to informally talk to him about it?
Steve T,
As ‘holic stated in the previous drinks, get a “Director of Football” in to support the new Head-Tactician and Head-Man Manager in the monumental administrative tasks that Arsene’s been doing all alone (whilst trying to coach the playing staff too) for over a decade since the departure of David Dein. Arsene could very easily arrange all of this himself before he leaves, if he really wants to. It’s no biggy really if you’re obsessively in love with someone but when things turn sour, you would still like them “to be happy” with someone else because you love them so much. That is unless of course you’re a vindictive bastard and you can’t accept someone else being with her, sonyou want to take that which you love down with you together so that no one else can love it?!
Obsessive love really does make many utterly irrational and crazy. Perhaps I’m just not obsessive enough in my love?! Hmmmm…. ? I am quite cuckoo though! ?
Steve T, I’m going to be much easier on Gooner Steve than you there. Drastic situations sometimes require drastic events to get the message across to powers that be who simply don’t listen – and I include Wenger there, ‘cos he’s a feckin’ stubborn old mule these days. Furthermore, fans can wrestle with their own emotions as they see fit themselves, as far as I’m concerned. He sounds pretty genuine to me that Gooner Steve chap.
I got vilified in here in April 2014 for writing the following (which I just retrieved from ‘Holics wonderful, hallowed archives ; “I want Arsenal to win the last 5 League matches and if they also lose the FA Cup final after winning those 5 games, I think it is absolutely the best long-term outcome for the football club. It’s a crisis situation this….and the alternative “Double” could be a disaster. FA Cup wont matter a f*ck in 6 mths time. During both semi and final I will still cheer for the team….but my conviction will remain about what such an outcome means for my beloved club and I’ll be kinda queasy if we lift it.”
I was accused of saying I wanted Arsenal to lose which wasn’t 100% correct, but I was more or less saying that…kind of. Here with Sutton, hmmm, no I don’t think I can go that far, the humiliation might just be too much. The analogy in the earlier post to Wrexham and York defeats is very good. But if we end up in the ultimate “darkest day is before dawn” type scenario then who knows when we look back in a few years ?!? Doesn’t arise anyway as the kind of team we put out v’s Saints is less damaged and will cruise to a comfortable win, albeit with nasty knee burns on that rubber mat.
“By all means want change but wanting us to lose to Sutton to facilitate that is not what I would call the actions of a true supporter.”
In my eyes, a true supporter wants the best for his club. I think most people with half a brain now realise the best for this club is Wenger leaving at the end of the season. So if a true supporter realises he must leave, he must surely want events to bring that about. And the ONLY events which will bring that about are bad results which lead to enormous fan pressure.
There is no other scenario in which Wenger will leave. You cannot hope we win matches and Wenger will leave as well – it’s one or the other I’m afraid. Painful as it is, it’s time to choose.
I would actually argue that hoping we win the FA Cup knowing that Wenger will stay because of it is NOT the actions of a true supporter, because it will hold us back in the long term. Did Wenger signing a new contract in 2014 not prove exactly that?!
Scgooner, your “darkest day before the dawn” comment is spot on. With Wenger, there needs to be a darkest day or the dawn will never come.
I hope the darkest day is on Monday so we don’t have to wait three more bloody years to get to the dawn!
Excellent summary of the situation ‘holic. If Arsene is to go I feel it would be better to let us know as soon as the decision is made. This would give us the opportunity of getting behind the man & his/our team without the seeping poison that has been infecting the support more & more as the Emirates seasons go by.
Very well written.
Thanks all. Gooner Steve, I would imagine you know I don’t agree with what you are arguing, but you have a right to express it with respect which by and large you have. Please try to avoid the ‘most with half a brain’ justification. Remember last seasons call for change turned out to be a very small number of highly vocal social media users. It’s far from certain that ‘most’ Arsenal supporters feel strongly enough either way.
Gooner Steve.
I have always enjoyed the FA Cup. I have been fortunate enough to have been to many cup finals over the years. All great days. Then there is the traditional FA Cup MOTD. Who else remembers the starting credits? That Ronnie Redford screamer from 40 years ago plus? Do you really want to be reminded of a Sutton winner for the next 40 years????
I understand totally your comments and views. Your post is well written. But I just can’t get my head around the fact that anyone would actually want us to lose a game, let alone a cup tie away at non league opposition?
Your arguement then falls down a bit by saying that if we win the cup and win games then he will stay. Surely winning matches and winning trophies is what we all want?
Ronnie Radford even…..
Fuck Ronnie, give me Johnny. 😉
A Johnny to fuck Ronnie???? Not my choice of a celebration but whatever floats your boat.
?
Heartfelt piece of writing, H. Cannot disagree with you one bit.
If Arsene’s bottle was distributed around the 10 outfield players on Wednesday, i.e 10% each, we would not have seen the capitulation after the third goal.
Sad times.
What Steve T has said. All of it.
@ 28 😀
Cynic you keep reiterating that Arsene just wants to stay no matter what… I rebutted you strongly after the Chelsea game so I don’t want to repeat myself again. But if that’s what you think of Wenger that he is the kind of guy who would stay on irrespective of results then let me tell you – you don’t understand the man at all. I thought 20 years would have been enough but well, nevermind…
And similarly to the guy above who is going on about how losing the FA Cup game on Monday will enforce Arsene leaves because of massive ‘fan pressure ‘ – well I almost felt ashamed of myself to for belonging to the same category as you – a fan. But that was only a momentary thought. I have firm belief that the majority of the fans worldwide and those who go to the stadium every week will rise to the occasion and treat the man with the utmost respect he deserves. There are men and there are institutions… petty insults don’t affect their stature in the slightest.
And Holic… Thank you for the post today. Heartfelt, balanced and yet veering towards the rational. Just ad as it should be when it comes to Wenger.
Has anyone considered that the board’s ‘solution’ to the management question might be to make AW director of football?
But if that’s what you think of Wenger that he is the kind of guy who would stay on irrespective of results then let me tell you – you don’t understand the man at all.
The last 12 years suggest otherwise.
Has anyone actually considered that if we had got a result in Munich that none of this would ever have been said? Then if Arsene had said today that will be managing somewhere but it might not be Arsenal, what then?
Can you imagine the panic? People would have been urging him to sign???
It’s a fickle old world.
Thank you bath.
Ned, he was adamant this morning that he would be managing next season, even if it wasn’t at Arsenal. He clearly isn’t of a mind to be shifted upstairs.
Cynic, his language and demeanour suggests to me that he will throw himself on his sword. Not just me by any stretch of the imagination.
Having said that we none of us ‘know’ that. Only Arsene and his closest confidantes are party to that information.
Where’s cba? I need a chuckle…
The world is not flat and things don’t happen in isolation. Unlike you, I break those 12 years into two parts – the earlier 9 and the last 3. Whilst you can go on your smug stance about how nothing good happened in the earlier 9 years, I believe we constantly over-achieved with a bunch of kids( better known as project youth in goonerverse). A lesser manager would have really struggled with those squads. Arsene himself has said many times that the job of a manager is make his team perform to the best of its abilities. He did that and beyond with project youth teams which also included some rotten characters like Adebayor, nasri and eventually van persie.
Which brings me to the last three years. It is here that I think Arsene has not been able to make this squad which is far better than the earlier ones, perform to its optimum level. This despite statistically – we have won 2 out of the last 3 FA Cups and finished the league one position better for the last three years. You cannot say those are not improvements. But we expected our title challenge to go down to the wire and not fizzle out the way it did. If that had happened and after that Leicester had won the league – then well done to them but I would have been satisfied. The same applies this season too. And I sense Arsene himself expected the team to do much better this time – both in the league as well as the champions league. And since the team has not (or it looks like it has not barring a spectacular miracle), I fully expect him to discontinue as our manager.
So, sorry to break your convenient 12 year narrative.But if you still want to continue with it, let’s agree to disagree.
Actually, ‘Holic, I think he will make a clean break with the club when he goes, not do a Ferguson on Moyes.
Sorry desi, easy on the ‘smug’ attack. I’ve seen no smugness here on what has been a difficult day. Let’s retain respect here please. Thank you.
Apologies Holic and more importantly Cynic…
I try to be factual most of the time but these are testing times and well that just goes to show Cynic – how difficult consistency is… 🙂
Holic
I was going to try to pretend to be CBA but there’s only one of him and I wouldn’t do him justice.
I can’t even think of anything Ann Widdecombe has ever said to make you laugh.
But that’s a lovely piece. It speaks for many of us and you are 100% right about the inability of anyone who is a true fan who can want us to lose on Monday. Yes let’s have probably the biggest humiliation in cup history on our record rather than the chance of winning a record 13th FA Cup. Ever since I could follow football I’ve wanted Arsenal to win every tackle, get awarded every free kick, throw- in and corner and I could no more wish them to lose than fly to the moon.
Last week I wrote a piece about my grandson playing against Arsenal and wanting them to lose for the first time ever. My wife read it and then said ‘ But what if he was playing for Tottenham against Arsenal?’ And I have to admit I would find it incredibly hard to support anybody against Arsenal. My wife secretly thinks I would want him to be Man of the Match in a 3-2 defeat .
Nobody who loves Arsenal can think it could be good for us to lose on Monday.
But back to Wenger. You obviously love the man Holic. I hope he leaves us and finds great happiness with France or whoever. We owe him more than most of our fan base will ever realise and I believe he will do the right thing in the summer. Thanks for a super piece one of the best you have produced
No worries, desi, it’s a rough time for those that love the bloke.
I fell out with him years ago though 😉
Thanks desi. 🙂
You know you never want to say goodbye to one you love TTG, but sometimes it really is the right thing for you both. I don’t mind admitting I will be in bits when he does go, so maybe it would be better in the summer as I have got the grand’holics down for the last match of the season against Everton.?
Difficult blog to write I’m sure, H, but it was harder, even amongst our fractious fan base, to find anyone contesting the argument that he should stay, on Wednesday night.
I wasn’t surprised at all at what happened in Germany, things haven’t looked right for a while.
Oh for someone in the Boardroom to have even the slightest bit of a clue as to what to do next though… 🙁
Holic
That could be a momentous game for them to attend. It’s usually a title celebration 98/2002. This time it will be a farewell party
“It’s time to write the next chapter, painful as that may be”
Indeed ‘holic, and maybe about three years later than it should have been.
An excellent heart-felt piece that reflects the pain many (most?) of us feel. Well done.
“There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by the tail and face the situation” … W C Fields
Rumour has it Dick Law may be next, depending on the strength of his ties to Wenger’s coat-tails.
Where are you David Dein?
Oh, and anyone who wants Sutton to win on Monday, for any contrived reason whatsoever, should go support the neighbours in perpetuity. And I couldn’t curse anyone harder than that!
Good stuff, Steve T and TTG. Agreed.
That last game of the season is going to be a very peculiar atmosphere.
It could be a farewell ‘party’ if by some miracle we have overhauled Chelsea and won the league. If we have not, and it is to be Arsene’s last game, even though I agree the time ifor change is right, I will feel huge gratitude and a matching amount of sorrow for him.
Having performed miracles with some very poor squads after the move to The Emirates, he finally found himself with money to spend and much better players for a renewed assault on the top trophies.
Those better players have badly let him down. I have just this minute seen footage of that 1-2 defeat at Man City earlier in the season and players were literally WALKING around our midfield as City built an attack. Shameful.
On the other hand, there can be no doubt that Arsene has sewn the mental fabric of the club, after twenty years in charge of several different groups of players. Even that shortcoming may be as much down to the changing nature of players as the manager. There didn’t seem to be much sign of mental weakness in the Invincibles side.
It is strange though that he spoke this week about the players being ‘mentally jaded’ for a knockout tie in the Champions League against Bayern Munich. At the same time, we hear every week about the great mental strength of the team.
I do think there is a touch of “he doth protest too much” about that though. Mental strength should be a given for a club that has been a perenniel performer in the Champions League for almost two decades, not something we need reassuring of every other week. We certainly have not been seeing much evidence of it lately.
It must really hurt though to be so let down by people you have so consistently protected from criticism.
It seems after so many years, the message is no longer being heard.
It is time for a new message and, unfortunately, a new messenger.
Such a shame that the manager cannot go out in the blaze of glory his dedication deserves.
So who would have him forced out by a defeat to Sutton United – possibly the biggest embarrassment in the competition’s entire history ?
Not me.
Bravo, Trev.
Nothing to add.
‘holic
top man
top top man -proud de know ye
.
.
UP THE ARSENAL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnPaOi6F4wc
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Lovely stuff Trev, and happy memories cba. I think it’s fair to say there is no Bergkamp, Henry, Adams or Seaman in the current team, but there should have been enough to put up a better fight than we saw on Wednesday.
What’s the betting we see the incumbents realising the need to fight for their very futures in the weeks to come, knowing a fair few will not be required by any new manager…
I didn’t expect many to sympathise with my desire to see us lose on Monday, especially on a blog where so many of you have had your heads in the sand for so long about Wenger being past it. Glad you have all finally noticed that the emperor is naked though – it took you long enough.
Wanting us to lose is not a conscious decision on my part by the way. I would like to get behind the side but lately I genuinely feel nothing when watching matches anymore – it’s as though my brain is trying to protect me from any more misery caused by allowing myself to care and then being let down. I just want this state of apathy to end and if it takes a humiliating loss to do that then so be it.
But despite what you may think, I am a true supporter. And there are many of us who love the club and feel the same way, believe me.
do me a fuckin favour !
A true supporter? You’d have made a great US Vietnam war general, Gooner Steve … http://images.slideplayer.com/14/4415786/slides/slide_45.jpg
Trev@50, Ttg@41: well said, both.
Only time will tell whether Cynic or Desi’ner has understood Wenger better. I personally think even Wenger doesn’t know what lies at the end of the season for him. If we fail to finish in the top four and do not win the FA Cup he will leave. I definitely don’t see us winning the FA Cup this year as all the big clubs are still in the competition and as we will capitulate to City/Manure/Chelsea. This year there is severe competition for the fourth place trophy and for once there is uncertainty about the outcome for us. We will surely beat Sutton on Monday and Gooner Steve will have to wait a bit longer to see us lose.
Earlier in the season it looked like our squad was stronger than in recent years and that would help us in our campaigns. I am a little surprised at the way things have unraveled over the last few games against Watford, Chelsea and Bayern. It is as if the players have given up on Wenger.
Arsenal bloody Arsenal!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAZJ28s1rU
Well done Lincoln. Must be great to follow a team that work their socks off for each other for 96 minutes and defy the odds. Respect.
Not just beating them, but beating them away from home. Amazing result.
In the new world that exists post Sky and social media a lot of people have come to the game with a different perspective and an idea of what supporting a team means. Many of the regulars on here were inculcated in Arsenal by our Dads and that was at a time when Arsenal were a very indifferent team , much poorer and less successful than they are today.
In this new world people become affected unduly by hysteria and fixate on a personal obsession with removing Wenger however well the team is doing. That is partly why they can want Arsenal to lose because they are agenda- driven and have a shorter loyalty span .
They also missed the inculcation that I mentioned earlier that would have convinced them that Arsenal is a special club and needs a man who represents its values properly. Wenger has not been perfect in this respect as his occasional spats with referees and fourth officials testify but he understands extremely well why it is a special club. That’s why this site would by and large abhor the thought of Jose Mourinho as manager even if he won trophies but others would have Satan incarnate if it guaranteed success- oh sorry I mentioned him in the previous line ??
I cannot, no matter how much Wenger pisses me off, wish for a defeat on Monday. I care not a jot for his dignity or how such a defeat would affect him, he’s just an employee after all.
But to carry that as a club forever, the most humiliating defeat of all time in any Cup competition, would do my brains in.
TTG. I think that’s a big generalisation if you don’t mind me saying. I’ve been avid since 71. Lived for 5 years in London in the 80s and watched a mid table Arsenal (generally) every home game. Loved every minute of every game. King Charlie Nicholas. Same after leaving London and following the team from afar, whether it was Rioch, Graham or Wenger. GG was an incredible strategist and his teams were gritty and smart, if not always the best to watch. The trophy haul was impressive too. What my type despise – and we’re not hysterical – is that the club including the manager now follows a business model not a football model. It ignores the fans and charges through the nose for a frankly very disappointing and utterly predictable product year in, year out. It has done nothing, absolutely nothing, to prevent the atmosphere becoming poisonous, toxic and completely divided. The players don’t exist in a bubble either, they are confused, disillusioned and bored with the football philosophy at the club and our two big stars are miserable, despite extraordinary financial riches for every single squad member. Personally I think most of this stuff about not trying is utter Bollix. Blaming Ozil when we’re leaking goals at the back is illogical. But I’m digressing. I didn’t crave success in the 80s and it’s not everything to me now. You know the club has sold out yourself and the manager has been the kingpin and executioner in that plan, albeit with a vital patron and sponsor behind him. Football has changed just as much as the wider world of social media and instant gratification you refer to. Our manager has been unable to adapt and it’s boring us, frustrating us, isolating us and chipping away at the pride we all have as Arsenal supporters. Some of us may have a different angle to you on all this and on how the message needs to get through to the key decision makers but the funny thing is we all sound in utter agreement that it’s over. But I utterly respect your view and I also admire your brand of loyalty. But do any of us want the message watered down now at this key moment of truth ? Individual fans have their own thought processes and ideas on how we get our club back. When they articulate with honesty along the lines of “Jesus I find myself nearly wanting us to lose for fu*k’s sake”, that’s not an easy thing to say, it’s a cry in desperation as much as anything. People are falling out of love with our club, many after 2,3, 4 or 5 decades and as with any break-up, people say crazy and hurtful things. COYG. PS CBA, f*ck your paragraphs btw, this is a crisis, has been for years.
never will understand hoping we lose
mind you
like cunts who know the price of everything
the value of nothing
i’ve increasingly encountered some
who know the names /faces and history
of even the most recent youngster purchase
yet seem to not have the genuine uncontrollable emotions
only a real gooner can’t help having
but what do i know
FUCK OFF THE LOTTA YE !
?
.
UP THE ARSENAL
pay no heed to me sc
?
It’s a crisis that requires paragraphs, that’s what it is.
Blaming Ozil when we’re leaking goals at the back is illogical.
Not when your manager’s idea of tactics is to score five if the oppo scores four. We also might not be shipping so many goals if the likes of him actually used the ball on the rare occasions we have it, or, heaven forbid, if he actually put a bit of effort in.
You know, defending from the front and all that, rather than wandering about (literally) as if he’s gone for the paper and wants to stretch a ten minute walk into two hours.
I see the vocal minority that have had knives raised high,blades glinting in the morning sun for some time now,but still not quite with the courage to do the deed,have now been transformed into a majority,and emboldened by their collective bloodlust, the knives have now been plunged deep into the body.
In the back mind you,always in the back,never front on,because then they would have to look into the eyes of the King,and take that look with them to their graves.
The vocal minority, as you put it, have been stabbing him in the front for years.
howdy clive
fancy a bourbon
i’ve the kettle on
un-offers
sorry
i have ginger nuts
and
digestive
s
and
a right hard stare
.
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
FUCKIN RAMBLERS !
FUCKIN RAMBLERS !
manager said
“Ok hold on ”
“Might have some in the back “
“No need to shout”
Arsène Wenger has said his appetite for management remains so strong that he wants to continue for at least four more years – preferably at Arsenal.
Which proves, to me anyway, that he doesn’t care about anything but himself.
interesting logic
*points and eye rolls*
Arsenal to win on Monday.
Arsenal to win the Cup.
Great day out at Wembley.
Open top bus to celebrate two great decades and a fond farewell to the greatest manager this club ever had.
Come on you Gunners.
What is sadder, Clive, is that those of us who for some time now have been suggesting AW’s time was up – while recognising the unquestionable enormity of his contribution to the club – have been joined by your knife-wielding minority and tarred by their brush. If that’s not mixing metaphors!
This will he won’t he retirement saga is typical AW, like his refusal to bring on subs until 20 minutes after everyone else has been calling for them. Get it done, Arsene, and let us breathe again.
He’s not going anywhere unless he gets sacked. Sorry.
You forgot the amazing 2nd leg come-back against Bayern, countryman, the last day overhauling of the Chavs and the dramatic CL Final win over Real Madrid (after thrashing Barca in the semi).
If you’re going to fantasise, do it with style man.
…not to demean another FA Cup win, which is at least possible and would give him something to sign off with.
If Arsene Wenger signs an extension for a year, what would happen? If it allows the club the time to put the proper infrastructure in place for the future, would the fans be willing to give him a chance? If yes, would getting a Thierry Henry or Gilberto Silva or someone of that ilk to assist him with ‘fresh eyes’ whilst being groomed for the job the right way to go?
Sorting out the recruitment policies (scouting, player recruitment, managerial recruitment etc), getting rid of high earning deadwood, setting up a system that makes the manager accountable to the board and changing the perception of Arsenal’s ‘soft underbelly’ while still being in the mix for Champions League qualification and challenging for ‘honours’ in general can hardly be done between now and the start of the new season.
After all the meandering, the question one means to ask is – will Wenger staying for one more season help us in the long term?
I don’t think a one-year extension is even an option now.
And I’d be chary of grooming someone for management based on their playing success. The jobs are chalk and cheese. Zidane seems to be making a go of it at Real (albeit he’s only had the job five minutes), but I’d be hard-pressed to think of another.
I’d be hard-pressed to think of another … since Cruyff perhaps.
You probably have to back a long way before Cruyff, to Robson, Clough and perhaps Ramsey, to find good English players who became successful managers, but a more recent and internatlonal list would include Conte, Guardiola, Ancellotti, Deschamps and Simone — all of whom would be on somebody’s wish list of AW replacements.
CBA has ginger nuts?
There are creams you can buy for that these days.
So I’m told.
?
That said.
I had cheese balls over the festive period.
Then there was the time when I had to bin two packets of sausages. Needed cutlery and Robbie Savage. On the back it said, before cooking, prick with a fork.
I had plenty of forks……
I’ll get my coat…..
Like I’d ever throw away sausages???????
Can’t beat top quality bangers….
?
Steve T. – ??
And the other question, Solid G, is would Wenger be amenable to spending a year ‘mentoring’ a assistant ‘with teeth’ and reorganising a structure which he presumably finds just fine already – or he would have already reorganised it.
I do think, when the time comes, that history suggests a clean break works far better.
Sad times.
So a true supporter wants us to lose to Sutton, but cannot see the contradiction in that. Laughable. We can do without true supporters like that.
I’m sorry to see you feel that Arsene should go, Holic. Disappointed though I am with recent results, especially the Watford one, I still have faith in him and believe he is the manager to keep us in the top four and maybe in with a chance of challenging for the title. As things stand, I can only see United, City or Chelsea winning the title for at least the next three years, not because they have better managers, but simply because they have greater buying power in the transfer market and can continue to pay players more than we can. It remains, in my opinion, a laudable but unappreciated achievement for Arsenal to be the best of the rest. I hope we can do that again this season or maybe even better.
Changing manager will not change the financial power structure of the premier league. I believe a change of manager is more likely to see us finishing outside the CL places with the result that our better players will leave and quality players less likely to join us. I cannot see any other manager doing better than Arsene. If we really want to compete, then we will have to get our own sugar daddy to buy us the trophies, as Abramovich has done at Chelsea, the oil sheikhs have done at City, Jack Walker did at Blackburn and so on. Do we want this? I don’t. I find that prospect abhorrent and totally against what I personally believe in. I continue to be proud of my club and know I would have none of that feeling, were I a City or Chelsea fan. I would prefer to start next season as I have done every season under Arsene, feeling the club has a chance of winning the league. It may mean that we have to start well, avoid lots of injuries or injuries to key players, and hope that at least one of our rivals messes up. I much prefer that prospect to thinking we have spent £200 million so we ought to win the league.
Having said all that, I find the premier league, the media coverage of it and obscene spending totally depressing these days, like politics generally. Please help me!!!
Good day ‘Holics.
Trev
Arsene has always been a bit dictatorial and I guess that’s part of why many want him gone. He brooks no opposition and has systematically weeded out strong characters.
But this is not business as usual and he knows it. The vitriol aimed at him has hit unprecedented levels and is hampering every day life at Arsenal.
Being the highly intelligent man that he is (although extremely obdurate), he must know where things stand presently.
He may just be amenable to a change in principle and application.
Do not underestimate the power of desire.
He wants to remain in the job, that’s all he knows and loves. This might be the catalyst for the latest reinvention. Getting a younger, more visionary fellow in could give him a new lease of life.
Just playing the devil’s advocate, not that I think he should remain.
A clean break would be ideal but my challenge is the seeming spinelessness and ignorance of people who have the responsibility to make those important decisions.
Can they be trusted to do the right thing if suddenly thrust into the deep end without as much as a life vest?
NBN
Gary Monk isn’t doing too badly at the moment, while Eddie Howe at Bournemouth is gaining experience everyday. Kenny Dalglish is another English player that did ok as manager (Newcastle).
Chris
You really can’t tell if a player can make it as a coach just by looking at their playing career, it rather depends on the individual
NBN
Do you happen to know how many ex Arsenal players have taken up coaching after retirement? Successfully and otherwise.
What a great finish, if I say so myself.
I can think of one obvious one.
Sir George Graham.
Don Howe…
George Armstrong coached at various levels, Pat Rice … Garde, Adams, Platt, Bergkamp, Bould, Morrow.. even Stepanovs is a coach.
There’s bloody loads, in other words.
Thanks Cynic.
Do you by any chance know of latter generations? Like say players that retired from 1990 till date?
Sorry about that. Just look like a tool now.
I’m generally talking about guys that Wenger signed – apart from Garde and Stepanovs who have been accounted for?
Stu, I hear you, and I am a reluctant convert to the view that now is the time to make a fundamental change which, yes, could see us taking two steps back before advancing again.
It is remarkable that we continue to finish top four but other than in 2008/9 we haven’t challenged for the title until the end of the season in a decade and I am now persuaded that under Arsene we are less likely than ever to do so. It isn’t about not winning things, it is about not realistically challenging.
I think you know I would love to be proved wrong. The man deserves to land a major title again and stick two fingers up at his loudest critics. However I now believe that actually, an Ancelotti or an Allegri could achieve more with what we all agree is a very good squad.
But then, one day, totally out of the blue, Robbie Savage appears on my doorstep. I said, ” that’s a coincidence. Mrs T has just returned home with a loaf of bread and I’m sure it has your name on it?”
I checked the loaf and the realised my mistake.
“Sorry Robbie, my mistake. It actually says Thick Cut.”
Not forgetting the Joey Barton marmalade, Steve. ?
I was looking forward to a Hovis punchline of some kind, but it would need comedy genius to get there.
I thought Spurs had picked a player called Hairy Wanks. Must get spectacles…
Should have just used my loaf and called it a day.
The big problem with football today is highlighted by Devon Stu. There is now way too much dough involved.
Oh no, Steve’s on the bread puns.
I pitta the fool.
The real big problem I have with taking the next step is again, the board. I have little to no faith in the board with respect to to playing side. The thought the those in charge are to try a pick a successor fills me with fear and dread. The one reason Arsene may well stay is the fact that I can see them all sat around a table saying, “well, what happens now then?”
You don’t need to be a genius though, unless you’re picking someone new to the management game.
Look at who might be available, approach them, offer the job to the guy who impresses you most, or who has the best track record.
Let’s say Allegri and Enrique are definitely available, Ancelotti might be, as there have been some rumblings coming out of Bayern that he might be on his way and you might be able to winkle Simeone out of Madrid (although he’d probably end up at Barcelona?)
Add to that a well worn and experienced coach in England in Benitez and a young spunker in Howe.
That’s six names to consider, three of which are well capable of doing the job, one might be and two others are perhaps not quite right.
If they really can’t come up with someone they should fuck off out of it and go back to selling rugs.
The three who could definitely do it are Allegri, Ancelotti and Simeone. The one who might is Benitez, the two not right are Enrique and Howe.
IMO 🙂
I’m genuinely impressed cynic if you think that it’s as easy as that.
In general it is. You get a list of candidates and pick the best one.
It ain’t rocket science really, if some good names are looking for a job. The problem comes when nobody worth having is available, and that’s not the case. It might be if we meekly accept Wenger staying on yet again.
We need a change, some top names are looking like being available. Go and get one.
Simple 🙂
Before anyone comes up with the notion of getting “the right man”, you only find out if he’s truly right for it when you give him the job really.
I don’t recall too many United fans bricking it over Moyes. He was picked by Fergie after all (which shows the folly of allowing the outgoing manager to choose his successor) and he was “The Chosen One”
There’s no certainties in life and we’ve already delayed replacing Wenger far too long out of fear. Get the change done, deal with what comes next.
The club will still be here.
Cynic.
So who definitely is available????? Who is not currently in a job that would be a good move for us?
Arsene has been doing the jobs of at least two competent persons for far too long at our Club; and that’s why he’s now being found out within a far more competitive playing environment at the one job that really matters most to a football club – i.e. the tactical coaching and man-management of the Club’s playing staff. He’s still a world-class “administrator” but he’s no longer a world-class coach and tactician for the modern game and, more correctly, for modern players’ characters and wants.
AFCOF!
So Holic. Is it about being the best we can be????
The only point I do disagree with is re the quality of the squad. We have a great deal of “squad” players and in my opinion, very few of real quality. I’m not going to go massively over old ground but the fact is we he lost top quality players and they just have not been replaced with players of the same quality. Cesc and RVP spring to mind.
In my opinion, we are not a squad brimming with talent and quality. Just a lot of good premier league players.
I also think that for the main, our dealings in the transfer market have not been great.
Not currently in a job is irrelevant, available in the summer is what matters and you sound people out now, with a view to getting them then.
At least a competent board would be opening a discussion or two, which is where we miss Dein the most. He would be like a rat up a drainpipe with most, if not all, of those names. Sniffing about over a nice dinner somewhere or schmoozing at a UEFA/FIFA meeting.
91 steve T
biscuit jokes ?
just don’t involve me
I am not a fig roll of fun
.
110 cynic
how do hookers attract punters
just off the bread factory night shift
.
.
ho-vis jackets !
?
eff off
god loves a trier
?
trier isn’t even a word
but
up yer hole
see 125
And you’re nowt if not trying, cba 😉
A competent board did you say??????
You see, that might be where it all starts to crumble.
*flounces off in a huff supreme*
steve
herself made rhubarb crumble yesterday
she told him his cartoon was shite
.
125 ! people !
125 !!!!!
*’re-huffs after short un-huff*
can’t beat a nice bit of huff pastry ?
These days you don’t even have to have a competent board, the agents will come to you.
So there’s no excuse really.
This is a double bastard, being a Daily Mail link and Glenn Hoddle doing the interview, but worth a read.
Craig Eastmond speaks…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4238136/Eastmond-talks-Glenn-Hoddle-Sutton-v-Arsenal.html
Thanks for your response, ‘holic. Much though I love Arsene and still feel he has what it takes to continue, it is beginning to look like a change is coming. It feels disrespectful to speculate on who might follow the great man. However, I will. I can’t see Ancelotti leaving Bayern after just one season. They will probably win their league again and may even scrape through into the CL quarter-finals. Bayern is also a bigger club than ours, I hate to say. I don’t know about Allegri, except that he has already started to distance himself from the job. Benitez would probably leap at the chance, but do we want him?. In two years time I would like Eddie Howe with Arsene up top to help him with the the transition to running a big club. We will probably end up with Steve Bould, however.
Yep, interesting, Cynic.
Hard to believe he didn’t feel there was anyone at Arsenal with experience that he could talk to. You would think, having invested so much in an academy player, that they would make damn sure he felt comfortable with the transition to the first team squad.
I was treating a player from Cheshunt FC last week who also came through the same Glenn Hoddle academy. He was let go after breaking a foot and struggling to find form again, while playing in the junior West Ham teams.
He found a team in the Spanish second division after Hoddle’s academy, and is now targeting a full pre-season and return to fitness this coming summer.
It’s clearly a tough old road to the top.
Let’s beat these non-leaguers, Sutton and Lincoln!!!
Lincoln at the Emirates if The Arsenal gets by Sutton
Sc Gooner
Thanks for a spirited and cogent reply to my recent bleating about those who are pissing me off at the moment. Clearly you have an Arsenal pedigree that extends beyond the Wenger era and your attitude generally sounds very similar to mine.
I would make two points. Firstly Wenger was here some time before Kroenke and Gazidis developed the sustainable model. It is clear he has taken a responsible attitude towards realising the sustainable objective but Wenger’s future and the ownership of the club are two separate things as far as I am concerned. I hate the ownership of the club but don’t blame Wenger as part of that. His performance before that came along was stellar. Without being able to spend mega- amounts he overtook Ferguson and made Arsenal a better team than United. I think he is now a shadow of that manager but he did do something that Chelsea and Citeh could only replicate by spending shedloads of money on players and managers.
Secondly there is among some people a revisionist attitude to George Graham. I knew George a little bit in the nineties but haven’t spoken to him for a long time. He did an incredible job until 1992 when he suddenly decided that a utilitarian midfield would suffice with Ian Wright up front. His last season was agony; we nearly went down and we stopped being title contenders years before. His teams after 1991 never played with the quality of Wenger’s best teams . Some people are now claiming that they were the golden years of Arsenal supporting. 1989 and 1991 were great years but whether he could have competed in an era like this is dubious. And in between even when we won things we weren’t very good. He once played a midfield of McGoldrick, Jensen, Morrow and Carter. I can’t ever forget that .
Like Wenger there are two parts to his story and Wenger’s second half is much better than George’s
Got a good treatment for back spasms, Trev? I’ve had trouble for over ten years with this and it has gone on me twice since Christmas… I don’t even know for sure if it’s a sciatic nerve job or a disc problem. Never once had so much as an x-ray
Sorry to be a freeloading nag 🙂
Get past Sutton then Lincoln at home and into a Semi Final.
This FA Cup could be Wengers’ get out of jail card to leave on a high…
To stay for another four years you mean.
Ten possible Arsenal managers next season
Allegri- 9/10
Tuchel-7/10
Jardim-7.5/10
Sampaoli- 8/10
Loew-8.5/10
Deschamps-7/10
Simeone-8.5/10
Benitez-7.5/10
Pellegrini -6.5/10
Ancelotti-9/10
These are based on a mix of experience, ability to adapt, tactical nous, quality of football, titles won, image and feasibility
Comparatively I’d put
Howe – 3/10
Henry – 5/10
Vieira- 6/10
Adams1/10
Bould -1/10
All but the last might be very good no.2s ( oo-er) but would they accept this?
Adams wouldn’t and neither would Vieira. Henry might, depending on who the number one was.
I read some ludicrous bullshit somewhere yesterday that if Henry comes “he could bring Roberto Martinez with him” which is a bit like Angelina Jolie promising you a threesome and showing up with Bella Emberg in tow.
as the visionary
who triumphantly
stepped up and got
8 out of a possible 9
the tv theme tune round
down The Liver and Anchor
am gonna keep my powder dry
as regards the Arsène replacement
and if yer wondering it was Petrocelli
though in a last minute stroke of genius
pulled Ellery Queen out the bag . OH YEAH
.
*moooooooooooooooooooooo*
#142…yes there is that option…would prefer mine.
Cynic
I like your analogy but what if she promised you a threesome and brought Brad Pitt?
CBA
You’re on fire!
Cynic – “I don’t even know for sure if it’s a sciatic nerve job or a disc problem. Never once had so much as an x-ray”
Those two things are by no means mutually exclusive.
An inflamed or damaged disc could lead to pressure on the sciatic nerve, but so to could an inflamed and swollen muscle. Sciatic signs generally travel some way – could just be to the buttock, or all the way down to the foot.
Spasms up in the back itself are more likely to be caused by a muscular problem, or a disc problem – statistically in that order.
Pelvic misalignment is another common cause of back spasms as the muscle groups around the pelvis and lower back contract to protect against the stress registering in the pelvic girdle.
It’s a complicated subject and unfortunately makes no sense to guess.
Movement above all is your friend – assuming no fracture or disease.
fuck off cynic
trev is my for free md
i’ve been rehearsing in me head
how to broach the wife’s arse with him
yer a tart trev !
loyalty clearly means fuck all
All I would say is never broach your wife’s arse with ginger nuts.
You can have that for free.
Cynic,
Get an MRI of your Lumbar Spine! Unless you’re riddled with metal work?! Just be sure to take off all those rings and studs; especially the one through your tongue and the one through your belly-button – reserved for the threesomes one presumes?! ?
in these turbulent times steve
i’ll plead with mrs me
not to hunt you
down and
KILL
Cheers Trev. It’s more of a hip/buttocky thing with the lower back as a side issue. Usually I get one jolt and I’m stiffer than cba at a Ramones gig, but the last two times have been like three or four sharp pains very quickly.
GPs don’t tend to care about backs, they just give out pills.
Cynic,
GPs care if you’re an ancient fecker!
Roll on Monday. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
if i could love cynic more
.
‘holic
god bless you
for allowing all of us
.
UP THE ARSENAL