Bolton, Babies & Bathwater
Apr 24th, 2011 by 'holic
I take it we all saw that game, and we can be sure in view of the immediate reaction that minds have been made up. Nothing can be said that will persuade you from your view. I won’t try to change your opinion. It may not be as far from mine as some of you might think.
The difference is that with no possibility of bringing in new personnel in April, and more significantly with Manchester City capable of getting within two points of us if they win their games in hand, I think it would be criminally unintelligent to get down on this manager, and his staff, and this group of players, when we all want them to clinch an automatic Champions League berth.
Yes, in the space of under two hours this afternoon we went from looking skyward, holding an impossible dream, to looking nervously at the following pack. That is why I won’t get unnecessarily critical of individuals. We still need them to respond. What hasn’t changed is that any critique serves no purpose until the curtain has come down on the season and we can assess properly where we are, and how far we are from taking that next step.
There was an element of same old, same old, for all viewpoints to grasp at this afternoon. The same old frailties at set pieces, the same inability to translate domination of the football into goals, and yes, once again some dreadful refereeing. They got a penalty and shouldn’t, we didn’t and should. The standard of officiating should be as much a topic for debate at the Premier League and FA as our shortcomings should be considered at Highbury House.
That is not to say that those who have remained firmly behind the team aren’t fully aware of the questions that will need to be addressed, just that any answers produced in the heat of the moment may not have any practical value, or be of any help whatsoever in the weeks that remain.
Those questions actually are not too many in number, in general terms. Did we add sufficient quality to those areas which many concluded were our Achilles heel last season? Have we set up the side to play rigidly to a system that best suits players who have not been consistently available for selection? Is the time right to let go some of the squad players who are being very well paid, but not providing the quality of cover required in order to pursue silverware on multiple fronts? Have we young players of sufficient quality to step up and fill those gaps, or do we need to recruit experience?
I’m not sure everybody would be able to guess my answers to those questions, and frankly what I think doesn’t matter. I don’t speak for anybody other than myself, a lesson others would do well to learn. I also don’t think that even if I am disenchanted with some things at the club, that I should be ranting, screaming, and hurling random and vulgar abuse at people I don’t know (unless your name is Phil Brown or Tony Pulis – in which case yes, that was me!) That is another lesson many have to learn.
I will be contributing to the debate at the end of the season in a way I consider to be reasoned, and with a degree of perspective. I don’t claim to be a ‘better’ supporter than anybody else, but accept that after half a century my viewpoint is valid and should please be regarded as reasonably held. There isn’t a lot wrong, but there are some significant decisions being forced on the club in the summer. Personnel will change, and yes, the transfer account has got to be dug out of the vaults.
For pity’s sake though, let it lie until then, when things actually can and will be changed, and not now, when they can’t.
265 Responses to “Bolton, Babies & Bathwater”
Lovely blog ‘holic. Guinness please
Nothing to complain about. Finish tidy and prepare for next season
Get in!
Well said, Mr. Holic. It’s painful right now, but nothing to do but knuckle down and sing our hearts out next week. Come on Arsenal!
Guinness, please. And one for yourself if you will.
True Storey, just so you know I’m also still aboard the happy train.
I honestly don’t think we did too much wrong today except not being accurate enough with our shots. Cesc hit the post, Cesc had a shot just utside the post, Nasri should have scored, Theo should have had a penalty in the first half, RvP was inches away from getting the rebound from Theo’s shot early on and I think there was some more as well. We did throw everything forward, we switched to 4-4-2 (and in doing so took off a defensive midfielder for an attacker) and we fought hard. And did the reaction of the players after the final whistle look like the reaction of players who don’t care? It took the neaderthal that is Paul Robinson of all people to stop what looked like it could have ended in a fight.
Have we been good enough this year? Of course not. Has it been down to back luck? No, but you can’t ignore hitting the woodwork almost twice as often (according to the commentators on Swedish tv) as any other team in the leage or the goals we had flagged off v Sunderland and Spurs etc. Do we need a mass clearout? Absofuckinglutely not. We need a few adjustments, nothing more.
But as the ‘Holic says, all we can do right now is back the team for the last four games. We did not reach the height we wished for, but now let’s do everything in our power to climb as high as we can.
Indeed I will pik, thank you.
I may just have a headache in the morning.
Posted this earlier:
Plenty of setbacks this season, many of which could’ve been avoided.
Just need to get these last 4 games out of the way and as others have said, at least try and get 2nd place. No consolation, given our position 2 months ago, but nonetheless, important.
Just want the season to end, but until then, there’s always alcohol!!! A pint of Guinness please and one for whoever cares to join me.
CoYRRR’s
PS. Great support once again today. Top stuff, which really deserved a lot more by way of a result.
And another drink for Lars and other previous posters. Is this the HT? :p
As happy as it gets Ollie 😉
Nice one mate.
Cheers Mick.
Hard to blame these players for me. Certain of them are desperately inadequate to be sure. They should never put on the shirt, and more and more I’m feeling Wenger shouldn’t be the man allowed the privelege of deciding who puts on that shirt. I still recall the glory days when, despite trophies, I had feelings of disgust with Wenger players. How many times did I see Henry give up in the latter stages of games after a foul not called or a goal denied by a defender? Too many. The players might have mental strength but I’m not sure Wenger possesses enough.
Sorry holic but I am fuming tonight. Bloody fuming. I find results like today to be the most frustrating that I can ever imagine. I said it last season about our weaknesses. I moaned at the start of the season that weaknesses needed to be addressed. I was slaughtered on here by some for that view.
And what are we now faced with? A bloody nervous end to the season whereby anything other than a positive result next week will have us looking over our shoulders again.
Yes I will get behind the team for the remaining games. But make no mistake, right now I am mightily Fucking pissed off. Unbelievably Fucking pissed off. It is not good enough and very soon I will expect some answers.
So ‘Holic,
Let me get this straight. Folks are supposed to hold their tongue, this time, because, if we get down on the lads they might not respond. Hmmm.
You know, six weeks ago, we weren’t supposed to get down on this team because (despite the comic book defending in the CC) we were still in on three fronts and we needed the lads to respond.
Then, after being out-Barcelona’d in Barcelona, we weren’t supposed to get down on the lads because we still had the FA Cup and, if we won all our games we could win the league. We just needed the boys to respond.
Next, after seeing what desire and resilience look like at the hands of Manure, we weren’t supposed to get down on the lads, because we needed them to respond. After all, it was all left to play for, win our games and we win the league.
Meanwhile, nobody responds, AW picks the same squad, plays the same formation, makes the same silly substitutions, and flails about on the touchline like he’s a white, French Stepin Fetchit.
This time, if I criticize the players and coach, I might cost us the 4th place spot? Really?
How about this, if these “boys” don’t care enough about the away support to do whatever it takes to get the next four wins (which they don’t); if AW can’t get it together (I’m not sure he can); then let’s put the blame where it squarely belongs – not at the feet of the supporters, not at the feet of referees, but on the coaches and players.
Half a century – ‘Holic, are you not actually Yoda!
Holic I agree there is no point in excessive angst over the result or the performance. Talk of the title beforehand was totally delusional (its Man U & Chelsea up there remember) and whether we finish 3rd or 4th at the end of the season is neither here nor there.
Changes have to be made in the close season, the deadwood cleared out (we all know who they are) and a limited number of high quality experienced signings made in key positions, NOT more gambles on untried youngsters most of which don’t work out.
Pat Rice’s retirement may be an opportunity to bring somebody in who is not a yes man and will put more obvious emphasis on the importance of miserly defending. But will Wenger’s ego accept this?
Another key issue is whether Cesc goes, I’m hopeful Barca will conclude they don’t need him, if he does, replacing him will be a huge challenge and may trigger the departure of some others we would prefer to remain.
Its interesting to note that some of the names of our youngsters currently out on loan that are being touted as the answer show no sign of being able to do a Wilshere. JET, Lansbury & Watt are getting occasional cameo appearances as subs in the Championship and are not setting the world on fire when they get a chance…….nuff said.
Nice words ‘holic : )
(plenty) of rum and coke for me please
i agree. the players care too much about the team that the pressure was killing them. you can tell in their faces.
honestly, a bunch of gooners are spoiled. if we were in liverpool’s position than i honestly get the freaking out. calling for the managers head after all he is doing is redic. he kept us in cl every year, gave us world class players, etcetc.
get behind the players, the manager, and most importantly the club.
West Upper, there most definitely is a difference between third and fourth. Fourth means cramming two qualifiers in come August when Stan and his marketing boys will have us coming back from some lucrative but exhausting mini-tour.
We must finish second or third, minimum.
Lonestar, you didn’t read what I said, did you. I am not telling anybody what to do or think, that isn’t my job. I’m just appealing to intelligent adults to behave as such.
Arsenal’s greatest weakness is psychological. They don’t believe they are champion players and hence they see falling short as inevitable. It’s in the players body language.
Look at Real Madrid last season against Lyon with Pelligrini and this season against Lyon with Mourinho’s mental strength transmitted to the players. Big difference in body language and results.
Wenger has a great eye for talent but mental strength was never his strongest talent. He was lucky to inherit Lions like Adams and Keown.
But it’s also obvious Song, Clichy, Walcott are squad players at best while Denilson, Almunia, Diaby, Chamakh. Bendtner etc.. should be sold off.
Lonestar, with all due respect, and no ability or desire to speak for ‘Holic, you didn’t get that straight. He didn’t say anything akin to we better shut up or they won’t respond. What he did say was- there will be a lot to discuss/demand/consider in a few weeks, but there is nothing better that we can do right now than try and do our part- aka vocal support- in helping secure as much of the success we have had this season (meaning points earned and postion in the table). He also implied that ‘putting the blame where it squarely belongs’ isn’t a problem, it just has no use at this particular time. Literally none. That doesn’t mean I don’t probably share some of your feelings and assessment, but let’s push through to the end. Have a drink.
Holic, I doubt if it’ll be the Guinness giving you that headache, mate!
BRILIANT BRILIANT BLOG…ONE OF THE BEST IVE READ ALL SEASON
Spot on mate
we must be patient till the end of the season and I really feel this time that Wenger will make changes. I have no doybt that a few players will be moved on.
Every team goes through a period in their history where they do not win anything. We seem to be gong through such a period.
The spending power of Chelsea and Man City has made it almost impossible for regular run clubs to succed. Even if we do make a few good signings theres no telling what clubs like Chelsea and Man City will do and so we will be back to square one.
For me; a number 2 like Steve Bould or Martin Keown or even Tony Adams will fix almost all our problems. We are a fantastic attacking side but we need a little more work on the defensive side of our game.
I love the Arsenal and I believe in Wenger.
Alan, how do you say Chamakh should be sold since he carried the start of the season himself and been pushed aside because of a healthy Nick and Robin? Is it his fault he fell down the list?
Also Nick, injury and playing out of position was his demise this season and anyone can tell you that. Playing out the wings does not help him.
But Holic come the summer you will be taken in by Wengerspin.And you will have forgotten today.Just like Gooners did last summer after a similar collapse last season.Wenger WILL NOT change.If he does he will be admitting he was wrong and he wont do that.Once the season ticket money is in on June 1st he wont give two fucks about the fans.This seasons collapse is the same as 2008 and 2010.What lessons did Wenger learn?None.He is the luckiest manager in the world he is under no pressure at all and that the problem.We need a new broom at Arsenal and it wont happen as long as Wenger remains as manager.
John Cleese in the film ‘Clockwork’. “It’s not the desperation that gets me, it’s the hope.”
Bolton is a good side at home. Let’s stop insulting other clubs by assuming we should always beat them. We lose: sack the manager. We’re third behind big spending clubs in debt. Let’s get a bit of perspective.
aisha
I too believe the players care…they really too along with the manager…
Lovely, ‘holic. Guinnes for me, please.
I am absolutely gutted, distraught at how the team can seem so brittle at times. Things need to change but it appears difficult to see where exactly we can improve.
We have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
Under the weather, so just a mint tea please ‘holic.
To be fair I thought we would be out of top 4 when decision to build new stadium was announced.WE HAVE NOT BEEN KNOCKED OUT OF TOP 4 YET. We have improved on last year & cleared the massive debt the club took on. Wage structure & squad has been dictated by this now gone debt. We brought some good young players though in the last 6 seasons. I was worried at start of season we would be pushed aside by Man City. Lets get next 4 games out of the way. Clinch automatic champions league spot. (& miss the qualifying round please) A see who re-signs & who is bought & sold. We all know where we were weak this season. Szczeny seems to have solved one problem. But we need a world class back up. Van P is on fire when not injured & we need a world class back up. Vermalator is great but we need a world class back up. Get behind our manager. Wenger knows. Hopefully the board will let him spend.
Nikhil
All we need is a sports psychologist and a defensive coach and tony adams as someone the sideline to bark at the players
DrunkenHobo
spoken like a true fan…totally agree..
‘Holic,
I, respectfully, beg to differ. I always read what you write. I enjoy it, and, oftentimes I agree with your, and several regulars’ opinions on matters.
What kills me, though, is this view that if we slate the players or AW, then we run the risk of crushing their self-confidence and, with it, our chance for victory. That view (or worry or fear) has been featured for the past three years by numerous reasonable people.
Now, I think you know, that I have never been a member of the BBB, but, by the same token, if the players’ mental states were so fragile that negative comments here or LG, or anywhere else lowers their belief, then they are in the wrong job.
If I were to say Chamakh is shite (which I do not think, Alan – remember, if not for him earlier this year when RVP was injured, we’d be in 5th position right now), far from crushing his self belief, it should make him redouble his efforts to prove his worth.
I dunno. I am disappointed, but not shocked.
Anyways, thanks for the space to vent – I feel better now.
vodka tonic, please sir. Salud.
Hear hear. They may be idiots but they are our idiots and we need to get behind them for four matches at least.
After that do what you like.
I give up with Wenger. I feel that the supporters would be much more on his side if he showed some humility, sympathy and delivered objective criticism of his team. Some say it doesn’t help, but there’s plenty of managers for whom it does help once in a blue moon.
I just don’t feel connected to Arsenal anymore. The board room have gone back on everything they said about shared ownership and sold out to Kroenke and the manager listens to no one, he’s living in a complete dreamworld – it’s painful to watch.
Arsenal need David Dein back, badly. I think this could be Arsenal’s biggest signing of the summer. Only then would I feel there is one person at the club, including the players, manager and board that gives a shit about the supporters.
what’s more annoying than 6 years with no trophies, than same old tactics and than same old excuses from AW?
That there are still plenty of people who still think religiously that football starts and ends with mr Wenger, that Arsenal is doomed and without any hope if he leaves.
Mate, our manager shouts at the 4th official and terrorizes water bottle while ferguson wins trophies with the worst united squad in recent memory.
Our team makes the same mistakes every year, chokes on the last games while AW praises our ‘mental strength’ and next year we’ll see a bump in ticket prices.
Give me a break with ‘protect AW and save the players from the onslaught’.
Not sure where to start. So angry n pissed. Still we need to get behind our team and watch them pick up the automatic champion’s league place. However, at the end of the season some hard decisions must be taken with regards to personnel.
This season in a nutshell
Szczesny our best keeper at the club by a mile only got his chance because the two clowns got injured
Twice lost two goal leads to Tottenham
Took 1 pt off two promoted teams and lost to both of them at home
One win in 7 games in title run in
Last minute of a cup final our keeper and CB hand the to cup to Birmingham
First team ever in CL history to not have one single shot in a game v Barcelona
And last but not least with 20 mins to go at Newcastle we were leading 4-0 yes i’ll repeat that 4-0 and amazingly we drew the game.Another first.Only a Wenger team could do that
Dont pay attention to what Wenger says during the after match interviews…he always protects his players in public…
Implosion!
You’re welcome to your space to vent here Lonestar. You reason, don’t abuse, that’s all I ask.
Cheers.
@aisha
spot on..
@Ray
mate u summed up our season pretty well but our problems can be easily fixed by adding someone like Adams or Keown to our playing staff..its time Arsene utilised the services of legends lie Keown and Adams
Imagine George Graham as Wenger’s assistent coach…
so how is publically attacking his players going to help? it will make it worse. as long as he privately blames them, im fine with it
I meant non playing staff…
This manager and his players deserve every bit of shit coming their way.They are a team of bottlers.Just like they were last season.We all can see it except Wenger.To those saying we are 3rd what are you complaining about.Have you seen Utd and Chelsea playing this season?They have been awful.The title was there on a plate for us if the manager had learned from the experience of the previous season and gone out and bought three experienced quality players.This has to stop.And it will only stop when Wenger goes.As Cesc so rightly said if Wenger was a manager in Spain he would have been sacked a long time ago.But our club is all about a top four finish,profits and NO trophies
And we will drink drink together , That little ditty is never needed more than now- Drinks all round please good sir and if you don’t mind I’ll have a chaser with mine,
Ray
You forgot first team in PL history to concede in the 101st minute.
Well said Holic.
Am I not the only one who is partly embarrassed by Wenger’s behaviour,blaming refereees (although he had a point today he was useless)and gesticulating wildly on every decision to the fourth official and partly fearing for his sanity-his stress levels are almost tangible! And yet I think we recognise already the warning signs-“why should I change a team with an average age of 23”? Well actually because there should be a better distribution of talent and experience and ability to produce under pressure.Too many of this squad are inconsistent.we made five or six mistakes today at the back notwithstanding the two set piece cock-ups we made.We managed to lose a game to a side considerably inferior to us.It is salutary to think if Vidic played for us we’d probably be champions but at the same time it is worth remembering that Vermaelen could have been our Vidic.
we have fallen away under pressure because ultimately we lack the right stuff that champions possess in abundance.Its back to the drawing board Arsene but somehow I don’t think you’re listening-you never do.
Awesome as always ‘holic.
I do worry about third now because we still have some nasty fixtures left. However the pressure of title-challenging is gone now so that might unshackle the team and allow them to play better.
I don’t expect miracles though. I was saying yesterday on my (humble) blog that perhaps we could bring a few fresh faces in from the reserves such as Henderson or Frimpong. They might bring new impetus to the team plus, as you say, there isn’t much more he can do at this point with the transfer window shut.
We should have got Pires and Henry back till the end of the season. Pires can still do a much better job than Rosicky and arshavin, as for king14 he would have scored more goals then chammy and bendtner. What had happened to Cesc and sammy Nas? I’m so shocked how our season has turned, AW keeps on about mental strength and maturity. What bollox. They are playing one game a week now and look knackerd. Something has gone so wrong at the club and I bloody hate it
Kent gooner
Just heard the AW interview on sky. I have rarely seen him so flat and dejected.
One other point I meant to make. I am very bored with this lack of experience and the average age is 23 shite. That team, including the bench is packed full of experienced internationals, many with more than 200 plus games under their belt. They should have more than enough about them.
1969 Lost League Cup Final to a third division side, which would have been first trophy in sixteen years.
Kept faith with a manager and his young side despite grizzles from vociferous minority.
!970 Won first European trophy
1971 Won first double
Just sayin’
Gah. We can debate about it until the cows come home, but the league table has never told a lie has it? We all know we are short for another season (quite literally in some cases) but where we are short is always open to debate. I think what frustrates us all though, with our inimitable sage wisdom, is that it means naff all. The reality is that none of us can actually do anything to affect the results, unless we are committed to being that twelfth man in whichever ground we are playing in… And even then nothing is guaranteed. If it was then life would’ve boring. With that in mind… Manure are boring. It’s all a load of old pony in the end. More beer vicar.
@ Goonerholic
So what you saying? It’s worth waiting 16 years for a trophy? Should we wait another 9 for Wenger to produce?
regardless, next season they will be less moaners, bandwagoners, and toxicity at emarites and more support. we will see players play better.
the only good thing about the match was when Merson, sitting bored next to the wittering Fat Sam, inadvertantly ‘signed’ the word “Cunt”
James, it doesn’t matter what I write, but it does matter that you think about and understand what you read.
Aisha,
Can we please put the support thing to bed ours are no worse than any other so called big team it’s the way footballs gone and besides we can blow it home or away and our away day boys and girls are up there with the Mancs for the best away support in my view,
Here here chippy. I am even more pissed off at the constant criticism of the home support. I had hoped we had put that to bed a while back.
Thank you ‘holic, as always you help to make sense of what are pretty depressing times for Gooners.
Cheers Snail, you put into words my messed-up thoughts.
Victoria, Concordia, Crescit.
Chippy,
I meant the supporters at emarites who boo as soon as pass is missed and at the players. Supporters at different clubs ask us if we are for or against our team. But I love our away, best in europe. But I think this season will weed out the fake fans from the Ems like it did in 08.
Whilst I don’t recommend it, finding out a work colleague has terminal cancer and 3 months to live on Good Friday puts today’s result and the infighting amongst Gooners into wonderful perspective. It’s just a trophy, no one died. There will be other opportunities.
Make no mistake, I’m disappointed. Sickened. Again. But personally, I’d rather wait a bit longer, win the damn thing and RETAIN IT the season after – one of the few things Arsene has never achieved during his reign at Arsenal.
Brilliant post ‘Holic – spot on. That said, I am already looking forward to next season. We (finally!) have the spine of a great team in Szcz – Verm (oh to have him back!) – Song – Fab & RVP to build around in the summer. A couple of quality signings (we all know the areas) plus Lansbury & Bartley added to the squad, a few squad players let go and we’re there I reckon.
And lay off Arsene – the man clearly needs a holiday and time to reflect on the way forward – not the sack.
Aisha. Where is your seat at the emirates? You must hear a different crowd to me.
I think Wenger has taken the club as far as he can. He has done marvelous stuff in coping with an ageing Invincible’s team and starting from scratch again whilst moving the club from Highbury to the Emirates clearly with financial restraints. However, I found this article written in October 2009 and I have chosen a few comments from Wenger he made at the time;
“I believe this team, this year, will do it. When I say that, it is not to please [supporters] but because I am really convinced of it. Whether we win the Premier League or the Champions League, there is no choice; we want both. But I know it’s vital for a club like ours to fight for the championship.
“The championship is every week, every three days and it is vital that we win it. ”
So 18 months ago Wenger claimed it was VITAL that Arsenal won it (the EPL) but recently he’s been saying that coming second isn’t all that bad and is still a success and something he would be happy to achieve for the next 20 years!
From the same article, he goes on talking about his favourite subject- mental strength, referring to the poor opening few months of the 2008/09 season and that by October of that season, the club were effectively out of the race for the title.
Wenger said. “Our mental strength was tested but I could see last season many ingredients in the team and it has a great future. Take everything into perspective and you realise it was not such a bad season.
Sounds familiar doesn’t it??? 18 months on and he’s saying the same old stuff!!
Arsenal’s poor run, inability to see out games and conceding late/stupid goals has been the focus of many a back page, many radio phone in’s and pages and pages of blog comments. People are clearly divided into two camps. “In Arsene We Trust” or “Arsene Out”. I don’t see why time and time again, people cannot simply have a sensible, adult discussion about this and whether it’s time for change- not get personal with each other and name calling, etc.
I don’t say that Arsenal deserve any right to success. Success is earned. We all crave success as Arsenal fans. We all want trophies. Some would like nice attractive football at times also. But what I want right now is the hope of an Arsenal side capable of mounting a ‘serious’ challenge for silverware. Lets face it, many media observers acknowledge that this year’s EPL isn’t of the same quality as previous ones – all claiming that Man U and Chelsea haven’t been as good as previous seasons and it’s only that reason Arsenal were as close as they were for so long.
We are several points worse off that this stage last season and so whilst Wenger may claim that this current team has ‘progressed’ – the table doesn’t lie. I don’t see progress. I don’t see progress in the likes of Rosicky, Diaby, Denilson, Bendtner. Song too has had a poor season – today”s game a good example of his poor decision making and tackling abilities.
Time’s Up for Wenger – it’s a shame he won’t be able to repeat his successes he delivered for the club during his initial first few years. Half of his tenure as manager at this glorious club has been without silverware. His time has come to a natural end and he needs to let someone else try. Who? thats a really interesting but difficult question- I’m sure you all will have your own ideas.
Steve, I may be as guilty as others on occasion talking about ‘the home support’ instead of ‘a portion of the home support’. Lazy writing is as bad as lazy reading and poor comprehension.
I will maintain that in my view elements of our home support, who have become more and more vociferous, have contributed to what has happened by eroding the confidence of many.
That is an observation I have made, and clearly so have others or you wouldn’t mention it. I’m not saying we are better or worse than anybody, just that there has been a ’cause’ and ‘effect’.
I can understand it too, but I get annoyed when it is clearly a vocal minority who are venting and insist that we should all bow to their viewpoint.
To their credit they are ‘punching above their weight’.
i haven’t been able to attend a game this season since im across the pond but previous seasons I have made to a couple of games.
But from the tv perspective and experiences of my brother who has attended every home game bar liverpool, 70% of arsenal noise is booing or moaning.
Meh,
The right sentiments ‘holic but i daresay patience has worn thin only because the weaknesses which were apparent not only at the start of this season but the start of the last 2 or 3 have not been addressed by the manager. A glass of Moet demi-sec please.
colesy, agree with (or at least understand) most of what you write until your last paragraph.
How can I put this to you and the others who say Wenger’s time is up, and ask who will take over next.
It isn’t your call.
Very well balanced article holic.
I think it’s important to have an intelligent discussion about this at the end of the season. Wenger will make changes to a side that HAS challenged for trophies this season and my own personal feeling is that we are not all that far away from something special. it’s therefore a little annoying that fans can be so scathing of wenger and jump all over anything he says post match.
Especially when considering we still have to put some good performances together to make sure of automatic qualification to the champions league, do we seriously expect Wenger to publicly slate his own players? Are people suggesting wenger goes against the philosophy that has produced the most successful teams in our history??
Surely we understand Wenger’s ways by now? To come out and try and play the way they do after so many knock backs requires tremendous courage and self belief. There is no place to hide in an arsenal team and they deserve credit for sticking to a footballing philosophy preached to them by their manager. They lack maturity yes but not courage and i think thats what wenger means when he talks about their mental strength.
Also very tired of people going on about old players through rose tinted glasses like they never made mistakes while maturing into GREAT players. For example Tony Adams’s ’89 season was plagued with individual errors that led to many of our own fans getting on his back. Winning the league at Anfield turned that around for him. There were over critical fans then as there are now.
We haven’t won anything for 6 years but we all know that wenger has been restricted during that time by the debt of moving to a new stadium which btw will safe guard our place at the top of english footbal for not only us but for future generations of arsenal fans. The fact that he’s kept us challenging during this time has in my eyes been a wonderful achievement.
He’ll get the players he needs and next year we can do something special
forza forza
Time to say goodbye. That is the vulgar abuse I spoke about earlier.
People please don’t use drink numbers in your comments, just in case they aren’t there is the morning.
Holic. I hear what you say but we are all the same. It matters not a jot where we watch the game. We would all be pissed off today. With the result and the performance. There will not be one arsenal fan who has watched that today and has not moaned at their tv screen. That is no different to a home game with the exception that the numbers are vastly increased. Frustration boils over, especially when the same errors and weaknesses cost us. I worked out the other day that I have been to roughly 60 games over the last 2 seasons. And I am getting the raging arse at having the home support criticised, especially from those who for whatever reason never make a game. I would not date criticise anyone for supporting in an armchair so for the last time people, stop having a pop at those of us that turn up through thick and thin.
Aisha,
The problem stems from the mis information the club sends out via it’s PR so many half truths add to that factors like telling them they’ve never worked in football so their views don’t count of that they are in PHWs words silly people no wonder some moan and groan 🙂 TBH I very rarely visit the tidal wave of sky induced bollocks has left a bad taste and I fully enjoy days in the pub around the ground !!
Aisha. Tell him to move to block 4. He will have a far better time.70% moaning? Do me a favour. Are you sure he is at the right ground.
Still waiting for the Wenger haters to suggest who should replace him? Sam Allardyce? Keegan? Southgate? Moyes? Coyle?
Don’t suggest Jose M because we don’t fit the profile of the the jobs he likes.
I think the frustration with these last 8 weeks has reached boiling point for too many to the point where logic is beaten down by fury. I’m glad though that someone mentioned the lack of Vermaelen for 95% of the season has been key. I think it’s impossible to underestimate how much pressure that has put on the rest of the pecking order in central defence. We’ve lost 6 league games this season, too many to (typically) be considered champions, but 5 of those losses were by December – admittedly if 2 of those draws were wins it would have been a bolder run (and they should have been).
Perspective….it’s needed now more than ever.
As for the earlier arguing in the drinks – I’m ashamed when anyone who I trust is a genuine supporter actually states “I want us to lose or draw”. Has it really come to that for more than one in a thousand of us? If so then I’m not sure what to say. Frustration doesn’t make you say that….and if that makes me the c@@t for calling him out on it then so be it. I’m devastated today by the result but I can’t ignore how close we’ve been all season until today.
Well said ‘holic.
We have seen the same 11 players that played today literally tear opponents to shreds. And sung their names with pride.
We know that on their day each of the 11 players that played today can beat Chelsea and Barca.
We could have bought a big name experienced midfielder last summer instead of giving Wilshere the chance – so was Wenger wrong then??
We could also have spent £50million on a proven goal machine like Torres!!!
I have been stood next to fans shouting at Wenger ‘oy you blind **** get that ******* **** off the pitch. He is ****’
Then two minutes later when the same player has scored a goal heard the very same fans singing his name like he is the new messiah.
Some fans seem to have a very black and White outlook on things – a player never plays ‘ok’ but is always either the best player Arsenal have ever had in their position – or the worst.
tim, interesting when you talk about one in a thousand. The protestors will always be more vocal than the rest. A year ago I thought it was a very small minority. Having seen the polls, experienced the feeling in the ground, I have to confess it is between a quarter and a third who appear vocally discontented.
Whilst I don’t believe we should have to be subject to their will I think their voices have to be heard and acknowledged.
Tim,
Jose M is a class a twat but to think he wouldn’t jump at the chance of managing us is selling the club short we are the biggest most succsfull club in the countrys capital a capital he and his family adore he’d be taking over a team seen as chokers and bottlers managed by a person he dislikes and would love to get one over on -The Arsenal job would appeal strongly and his ego would take it, Thats not to say I’d want him but we have massive appeal.
Much respect, cheers
I’d bring in Bergkamp to work as wenger no2 with a view to take over 2012/13 season, would be nice to see Henry also brought back in some capacity
‘holic….I understand the frustration….but to go to the nth degree and hope we lose to ‘prove a point’? Then again…I’ve been a long time away from London….I never felt the moaners were more than a few small pockets even when we were playing mid table football year after year. Higher hopes…and higher costs I suppose.
I’m simply sad as we came very close…it’s been a roller coaster season….we beat Barca at home….we had some great young players raise their game and we saw another return from a terrible injury. You also have to hand it to Van Persie since January and Chamakh before that….their overall returns are remarkable. Walcott, Sagna, Wilshere, Szch, Nasri have all had great campaigns overall. We should be proud of what we have rather than bemoan what we don’t?
@ Chippy….I think you’re mostly right…but doesn’t Jose insist on a huge transfer kitty too?
Everything that has been said after the final whistle today was being said this time last season.If Wenger was an honourable man he would say he has taken the club as far as he can.Every season is now the same.The same lack of quality experienced players.The lack of spending big money.The same mistakes on the pitch.Anyone who thinks Wenger will change has not been following us for the last 6 years.Groundhog day but this isnt funny
evening all, yes its me again but with a bit more support this time
arsne if you had any pride or decency you would resign tonight 4 nil up away to newcastle 3-1 up against the guys down the road 1-0 up against the scousers with what two seconds to go and blew the lot.cant score at home need i go on. and i am just fed up with the garbage that comes out of his mouth he would be great in gaddafi ‘s information centre with all the crap he comes out with after every game if the team had real mental strength they would of won all the games above.i believe the team has became a replica of the manager they just don’t know what there doing half the time.
Heh.
Between a quarter and a third who are vocally discontented?
I don’t know a single Gooner who isn’t fucking gutted that this lot are so fucking adept at fucking things up.
I haven’t seen the like of it in almost forty years.
Chippy,
Jose will now only take over clubs who give him £200m to spend on new players
Who’s to say that Jose would have done a better job than Wenger over the past 6 years given the limit on spending due to new stadium move?
Tim,
It probably helps but I’ve never been one to think it’s a given with him- He managed a Porto side who although big spenders in the Portuguese league that was penuts compared to Europes top sides and he won the pot –
Yes at Chelsea he had money but look what he did with it Cech Cole Carvalho Drogba top notch players and it started to go pete tong when the owner wanted to spend and did spend large fees on players Mourinho knew wouldn’t fit ie Shevchenko Ballack etc
Then onto Madrid the worlds biggest club that have always spent for fun no matter who’s in charge !!! Do I think he’s just a cheqbook manager nope not in the slightest Would I want him at Arsenal probably not no doubt we’d improve for a few seasons but the wreckage when it goes wrong could take years to get over as he’s that sort of manager 🙂
Anyway, new balls please!
Wise advice ‘Holic.
We need balance both within the squad, adding strength and determination to the intricate passing skills and also across the fanbase.
The dichotomy between the AKB’s and the AMG’s is so wide that it is reminiscent of medieval religious schisms that led to violence and war.
There is merit in the views of both sides. Would that the shrillest from each camp would recognise that and that yes we are indeed close to winning the EPL but also yes there are definitely changes that must be made this summer on and off the field.
Large Glenmorangie please and have one yerself.
Although I don’t deny Arsene has done a fantastic job over the years – and I’ve certainly enjoyed the Wenger years more than the Graham, Houston and Rioch ones – I’m growing increasingly concerned about his general behaviour and decision making. His tactics and team selections have always been a topic of debate but I can’t understand why he continues to play players out of position. Bendtner’s a great example. He could be a damn good striker given the chance to play in his natural position, which is obviously left central attack….cutting in from the left and pulling the trigger from a central position. Yet Wenger wants to play him right wing to fit in with his 4-3-2-1 (or 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1 etc). Is his strength to dribble? no. Can he cross? not really. Can he track back to support the full back. Hardly. Arshavin, Nasri and Walcott also suffer from the formation, all of which should be played in central positions. Gibbs is another who for me is not a left back and should naturally play a left winger. I think its obvious that we should revert to 4-4-2 so that our players can play in their natural positions.
The other thing is Wengers general behaviour on the sidelines, which lets be honest is bordering on embarrassing at times. Is it just me or does the boss look like he’s losing the plot. If he runs his hands through his hair any more he’ll be bald by the end of the season, and he’s got to stop blaming everyone other than his own players when decisions go against us…its part of football and unfortunately we have to live with it. Yes I know he won’t blame his players publicly but to say Eboue’s collision with lucas last week was not a penalty was simply unnecessary and made him look a fool. As for his comical press conferences and post game interviews, I would love just once not to hear about our fantastic mental strength and togetherness. Perhaps I don’t understand the meaning of these terms but I for one don’t see either quality from this team. Perhaps this will come with experience if and when they finally get a trophy under their belts.
I’m not one of the Wenger out brigade, and I do generally believe he could still lead this team to greatness, but I’m so looking forward to a summer where I fully expect him to take a hard look at his footballing philosophy, his tactics, and most importantly his playing and coaching staff. If we start next season without the obvious issues being addressed then I fear next season could be the first outside the top four.
Correction to my comment – If we start next season without the obvious issues being addressed then I fear next season could be the first of many outside the top four.
You know a few Tone 😉
Oh I left out Inter, He flogged their star striker got Eto and cash in return and went on to knock the best club side I’ve ever seen out before winning big ears again to put it in perspective Benitez with the same squad was struggling in 6th before getting the boot- And they are still struggling now hence my point about the wreckage once he leaves 🙂
Steve T
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying about not over-generalising, but from where I’m usually sat (block 18, about 80% of home games) the crowd leaves a fair bit to be desired.
At best, we’re a relatively quiet bunch, at worst we’re nervy and chippy. It’s definitey the case that some of the “support” (not all, by any means) regard themselves as having stumped up a decent amount of wedge in return for guaranteed entertainment, and treat the experience like a trip to the theatre, only a theatre where you’re ok to heckle the actors.
As a result of having extended family who (tragically) support other clubs I’ve visited a few other stadiums in my time, and I’ve not come across quite the same atmosphere we generate at home, particulalry this season when the nerviness really feels like its really peaked.
You can actually sometimes feel it before the games too – I recall texting a mate about an hour before the recent blackburn game (when we were still well in the hunt and should have been chomping at the bit to get behind the team) to say that the atmosphere basically felt like we were all about to sit an exam no-one had revised for.
Don’t get me wrong, there are some sections of the ground that do seem to get voices up, and I can recall a few occasions when the place has been rocking, even this season (Stoke was probably the last one – it’s usually night matches with us). I also think that with 60,000 plus on attendance you’re always going to be carrying a few passengers.
I have nothing but love and respect for those who take the trouble to come and get behind the team, and particularly those who follow them away (hats off lads). I think it’s important that we don’t tar everyone with the same brush, but I also honestly believe it’s fair to say that the home crowd, taken as a whole, has not covered itself in glory these last two months, any more than the players have.
I hope you take all of the above as it’s intended – an alternative point of view from another gooner. No intention to irritate or exasperate, and if block 4 is the place to be then maybe the answer is as simple as changing my seats!
One moment summed up Arsenal’s season tonight. On Bolton’s 2nd goal, we had one man on the near post and nobody marking the far post. This is tactics for dummies. If Wenger can’t even get that right, can’t even drill into his players that if you have a strategy of putting players on the posts at set pieces then they have to stick to the strategy, then honestly, what’s the point? It’s utterly laughable. It must be 5 years that we have been watching these set pieces fly in, and Wenger has done NOTHING!!!!!!!!!
It’s an absolute shambolic disgrace. £6m a year we’re paying him and he can’t be arsed with the fine details.
I’ll tell you something, if was Utd, whoever wasn’t standing on that post would have been nailed up against a wall by Ferguson on the final whistle. You can guarantee Wenger says nothing.
Actually James, I can’t. You have not a clue what goes on in the dressing room at the end of the game, only what he chooses to share with you via his interviews.
Come on Holic, it’s obvious Wenger says nothing because the same thing has been happening every week for 5 years.
‘Holic – Ironically, your post has made me fixated on summer transfer business.
I’m bewildered by the torrent of fans slapping our manager and players about all over the internet. Please ask yourself: to what end?
Support the bloody team and we’ll pick this up at the end of May, at which time I doubt our opinions will be so very polarized.
Tim will love this…
One of my very favourite Clash songs ‘holic….and a cover version at that. Recorded whilst we were FA Cup holders too.
Remember…..to kick it over.
We’ve gotta keep on…keeping on…… if you ask me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CED_G9LdHHw
I can’t remember such a bitter time, I’m not down but I’m feeling low.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7PDS9j1Pzw
ah yes….1979 was the best year for music and cup finals…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsksSWOxq2Y
N7.
You make some great points and I am grateful to have the chance to read them. I am not trying to say we have the best support in the world. I am not saying that it could not be improved. But I do not subscribe to the school of thought that seems to have developed whereby those of us that turn up week in week out seem to have some kind of obligation to raise the team. I do not see that. Yes we have an important role to play but it is not our responsibility to make international footballers play. I would pose the question to every Gooner that visits the bar. Would you need motivating if you were pulling on the famous red and white shirt????
You mention money and I do think that has had a massive impact on things in two ways. The money we are forced to pay for tickets is now astronomical. Also the money that players are now paid makes them more removed from the average fan than ever. I work in a job where I work shifts. I have completed a nigh shift, gone home, had about 3 hours sleep and gone to watch a game. It is then back to work form there. So when I see players who earn more in a week than I earn in a year not putting a shift in I feel that I, and anyone else for that matter is entitled to have a moan.
People pay a lot of money. These are testing economic times. They continually hear messages from the board about how well we are doing. We see millions coming into the club from player sales but very little seems to be re-invested. That leads to massive frustration and sections of the crowd turning on the players and the club.
I went to Portman Road this year. Took time off work, jumped on a train and headed to Suffolk. I get served up with an awful display. At the final whistle all but 2 of our highly paid superstars put more of a sprint in to get down the tunnel than they had on the pitch. Are fans wrong to then have a moan??? My opinion is no.
There is negativity where I sit. There are two blokes who sit about 8 rows behind me that are just fuck wits. Have moaned for years. But they are generally on their own. Yes we all vent our frustration if it does not go well but generally it is encouraging.
In brief what really annoys me is the constant criticism form many who never even go to games, of the home fans. I realise we have many fans in all parts of the globe. Great, I love that. Everyone will have sat in a bar or with mates, and at various stages have vented their anger at the screen. It is no different to being at the ground apart form it being magnified 55,000 times. I do not seek to criticise their lack of attendance or their emotion in front of a TV screen. All I ask is for the same courtesy to be extended our way rather than jumping on the bandwagon.
As I said in a previous post, we are all Arsenal fans. we all have our own opinions but ultimately all want the same goal. The last thing we need to do is to hammer a wedge between various sets of fans. It is completely divisive and the last thing we need right now. We do not need to give those outside of the club an even bigger stick with which to beat us with.
N7, if you are anywhere near Block 4 before kick off the first one is on me.
Holic, sorry if this is a bit off post but I felt it had to be said.
Up the Gunners.
Evening ‘Holic & ‘Holics
‘Holic,
The voice of reason as ever. Whether you accept it or not, you do speak for me in terms of the post above, agree 101% Great tunes too! Cheers.
‘Lars @ #5
Apologies , how could I forget? HT would not be the same without you! Another great post from you, definitely helps me with the anguish of the moment.
BTW, forced myself to watch MoTD 2. Have to say, without Alan Handjob and Garry Sniggerer it was a lot better. Lee Dixon will always be reasonable to Arsenal. What surprised me was David Moyes’ comments, very fair and eloquent especially considering ‘Tunnelgate’ earlier this season which left me fuming at him. David, all is forgiven as far as I’m concerned.
From what I listened to this afternoon and having seen the highlights it was not a poor Arsenal performance. We definitely tried to win this game as we did on Wednesday against the scum. Special mentions to Szczesny, Fab4 and RVP. I thought all played really well. Defensive naivety was our undoing yet again.
Onwards! Beat The Mancs, secure 2nd spot. Can we do it? If we do, it will show some of the famed ‘mental strengz’.
Drinks on my tab for any that care to join me, whatever your mood 😉
You have been a beacon of sanity in a madhouse season, ‘Holic, and again today. Automatic qualification for the CL is all that is left to play for. The focus has to be on achieving that for the final games. I have some sympathy for Wegner. The failure of his team to win when it really matters must be as frustrating and infuriating to him as it is to us. He will be hurting tonight. As anybody who has managed a team, even if not at the rarefied heights of the Prem, knows, when you are on the touchline, however well you prepared, however well you read the game, how ever good your tactical brain, for those 90 minutes you are totally, stomach-churningly, powerlessly in the hands of your players and those twists of fate that turn games. Miracle is that more managers don’t die of the stress every season.
A glass of your finest claret, if you would, ‘Holic. One must salvage some slither of pleasure from today where one can.
Love this one too.
Happy days.
Steve T @ #104 & N7 @ #94,
Really enjoyed reading both of your posts, you both make really valid points and I have great respect for that. To me you are different signs of a very important coin, that coin being the supporting life and soul of our club.
I’m hoping to do a share on a season ticket next year (first time for me) so the quality and perspective of my own posting in terms of team performances should improve somewhat.
Extra drinks for you two, if you want them!
Right, enough kissing, let’s focus on The Mancs visit next weekend.
Semi-serious question…..would playing 5 at the back with Vermaelen (if fit) as a sweeper next season be to our advantage? Not for all games…but some.
Steve T, sensible words in what is obviously a difficult and painful time for all of us.
CoYRRR’s
Tim @ #109
Sounds feasible when playing certain teams. Wouldn’t want us to lose our attacking flair but rotating the team and changing tactics based on what opposition you are facing is, in my opinion, the great strenght of Ol’ Red Nose.
Anyway, that really is a question for Le Boss. Maybe he’s reading this site for a little inspiration? 😉
@ TS…..I see it as giving us that cover where we conceded too often (specially on long balls) and would hopefully help our full backs make more progress on the flanks. Can’t complain about Sagna’s efforts in the least though…does anyone run further week in week out? Def. agree that SAF seems to shake that aspect up more than most, to great success. In terms of athleticism not sure who makes most sense as a sweeper based on our current choices. Still think Song would make a better central defender but obviously we’d then need two holding midfielders to step up/be acquired. Thinking back to Vermaelen last season and his goals and fire…..blimey…he was good.
Jesus where to begin? defensive coaching would be nice, djourou and kosh are capable footballers but as defenders they don’t cut it. Vermaelen becomes a better player every game he doesnt play. sczezceny is clearly a good keeper in the making but the defense needs to be more secure. The players run out of ideas when they get in the final third.If i had a pound for every time sagna floats a hopeful ball into a packed box with tall defenders, then i would have several pounds. I yearn for the days of Bouldy and Keown and Adams, defending isn’t a dirty word, the invincibles were made of stern stuff. I don’t want to get rid of Arsene and i never want a mourinho situation but surely there has to be changes afoot this summer, i dont want revolution, just evaluation.
Steve T
That’s an absolutely bang on post and I find it hard to disagree with any of it.
I guess what we have is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario – does the lack of effort from the team result in a flat crowd or does the nervousness of the crowd resut in some flat performances from the players.
I can’t say for sure what causes what, only observe and report on how the home support behaves, but I have a lot of sympathy for the suggestion that the buck needs to ultimately stop with the geezers who earn several million pounds a year for their efforts on match days, rather than those attending at great personal cost.
It’s definitely fair to say that this is a horrific team to watch when it’s not going well, at least in terms of feeling that all the players care as much as they should.
Hopefully, some of this will be addressed in the summer. I’ve said before that i think it would do the squad the world of good for some of the strollers to be let go and the message to be spelled out that, regardless of ability, you need to earn the shirt. There are players who have spent nearly their whole careers in an environment where they’re never really expected to step up and take responsibility, and where (for one reason or another – many of them perfectly good) third or even fourth place was enough. The challenge is to turn that mentality around.
In return, I hope the crowd will get full square behind the lads and we can turn the Em into the kind of intimidating away venue it has the potential to be. While I’m dreaming, I also hope we can ditch that Elvis nonsense and get a proper song.
That’s enough for the night from me – a large drink and much respect to you and thanks, as ever, for the thought provoking words.
It’s a small thing
No idea where that final line came from – it must be a small thing as I evidently forgot to finish the thought!
I’ll blame my phone for that one. Night all.
All I know is this, we lambast the same players all the time, but none, I repeat, NONE of them were playing today. Bar Vermaelen that was our strongest team, they just weren’t up to it.
Can’t wait to see what’ll happen in the summer.
tim @ #112,
Not sure about Song as a central defender, the more I think about his best team performances this year it was when he also managed to get into the box and bang a few in!
I am certainly looking forward to seeing Vermy back in the side. Let’s hope his season next year can emulate his first, for effort at least. Let’s also not forget that when he was in the side we still managed to concede soft goals but he’s still learning his trade and overall, he does seem to have the potential to be an Arsenal great.
I think both Szczesny and Jack are of similar potential in terms of them becoming future Arsenal greats.
As a side overall, we have so much potential. The missing factor for me is learning to play better as a team. That includes defending and being able to hold a lead.
Sadly, sometimes in life you reach an impasse.
I blame Fabregras, he is overrated and not a real captain
this from the Guardian mbm today sorta says it all….
2 mins: The first minute’s commentary throws up this double-whammy: “2011 has been a terrible year for Arsenal” … “they’re the only unbeaten team in the Premier League.” I do hope that one day my team can be as unsuccessful as Arsenal.
‘Holic, a masterpiece of restraint at a bloody horrible time.
For the first time for 3 years, I have kept away from your organ this week – matron! – as I didn’t want to come on here just to moan.
It is your blog, sir, and I respect your wishes not to come on here just to be critical. Hopefully, you will be familiar enough with me by now to know that I never intend to be destructive, even when critical.
The disappointment, for me , has been immense, to the extent that i didn’t really want to even talk about football.
Last August I asked someone, via the drinks, to assure me that it “was not yet time to worry” at the state of our transfer activity.
You may remember it as you mentioned the line in your following post.
Well, the time to worry has well and truly arrived now.
I remember your reply at the time, and it was exactly along the lines of your post tonight. Loosely, that true feelings will be revealed when the season ends.
Well, I hope they will, because they are awaited here with great and genuine interest.
The worst aspects of this season for me, (I think, through a stunned brain) are that lessons NEVER seem to be learned.
That, and the fact that the same individuals continue to let the club and the fans down.
I think these points have a bearing on what STEVE T and others are debating on here.
I think our away fans are awesome.
I also get upset at those who dismiss the whole home crowd as silent, tourist, bad supporters, although some are.
I have missed a total of 2 home games since the Grove opened. I turn up with pride, and I sing and support in every way I can. I NEVER turn up late, and I NEVER leave early.
I have NEVER booed, but I have got angry and had a shout at times.
I even get angry and shout at my daughter on rare occasions, and I love her more than anything else in the world – yes, even Arsenal.
What I, and other true supporters, get angry about, is the lack of effort that we can see around the pitch, that maybe goes unnoticed on the TV screen.
At sometimes crucial moments, no Arsenal player can be seen showing for the ball, or some players jog around when a lung-busting sprint is needed.
These things, and the resulting lost opportunities, hurt.
I’m not sure it’s the “tourists” and corporate section who boo and moan – I’m not sure they care enough to bother.
There are some regulars who moan and scream at players – I don’t agree with them, but when you turn up every week to be hit with the same disappointments, you can see why some do it.
Sadly, we now look to our biggest home game of the season next week with a huge sense of anti-climax. What could and should have been a title decider will now be an attempt to hang on to automatic CL qualification. Important as it is, it could have been so, so much more.
I hope the crowd can pick themselves up as much as the players will have to.
Cheers all. Sorry for any moaning.
Thanks holic. Ive been busy swearing off at the idiots at arsenal action, but I can see I’m In better company here. My round I insist.
holic — all well and good – except that I heard this argument toward the end of last season and the season before (“wait till the end of the season before ranting and raving”) – and each time, when the season finally ended, the same people telling us to “save it to the end of the season” started to then say “that’s in the past, let’s move on, let’s not dwell on what happened, it can’t be changed.”
The argument changes all the time – and those of us wanting to express our frustration, anger and disappointment are always told to just STFU regardless – at whatever time of the season or off-season it is.
Look-I don’t hold with idiots who abuse the manager or the players whether online or esp. at the stadium. I am now very very critical of the manager but at no point in any of my rantings do I ever lob insults at him, villify him – nor any of the players. Such rantings are childish and say more about the person lobbing the insults than anything about AW or the team.
I agree entirely that support at the remaining games must be improved to the nth degree in order to save what remains of the season. But there are a lot of us who’ve become so jaded we don’t even have the energy left to complain about anything. We’ve even lost the ability to care if we drop out of the top 4. Some actually want us to drop out of the top 4 – I don’t go that far. But some of us have reached the point where we’re so numb, so jaded, that we actually don’t even care anymore.
As I said on Twitter, ‘holic: “Support at the ground. Dissect and criticise in the pub. Home fans take heed.”
Oh, and a Single Barrel Jack Daniels, or Green Label if it’s available!
N7 Gooner – excellent post. (@114)
One point not raised: do we need to abandon zonal defence?
N7,
The word you use that sums it up for me is effort. All we as fans ask is that they put a shift in. Everyone has off days, but I want players to just have a modicum of the passion we have. I don’t want players giving interviews telling the world how good they are and not delivering. Sami was a prime example today. I thought he was poor by his standards but he still put a shift in. I have no problem with that at all and I think fans appreciate that.
A big turning point for me was the away game at Wigan last year. Played on a bank holiday Monday the away end had been sold out for weeks. 2 nil up and 10 to go. Then somehow we manage to lose the game 3 – 2. Every single player ran for the tunnel rather than acknowledge those who have travelled the best part of 200 miles on a bank holiday to watch a game that was on the tele. The one who went to acknowledge the crowd? Big Sol. For me that just about tells you all you need to know about certain players today. When that happens I find it tough when people all of a sudden expect fans to suddenly raise the roof as if the events of the previous week had not taken place.
The atmosphere inside the ground is definitely a two way thing, but at times this season I have felt that certain performances have resulted in a natural reaction. The financial reports are then again mentioned and that causes it’s own problems.
N7, love the points you make. A beer is here waiting for you.
Very intelligent post. I for one thought the performance was appalling yesterday, much worse than against Liverpool or Spurs, but i’ll keep my negativity bottled up for a few weeks.
Good blog holic. We are not that bad we have a great core we just need to make some changes to plug the gaps. If we had have won the league this time round the pkayrs who need to go who think they are the best already would have gotten even bigger heads and we most likely not won a few titles but now we make the changes with truly hungry players and the great legacy Arsene wants materialises and we might win or truly compete for many many titles. Summer will be great fun I suppose
Drinks to everyone still here.
It hurts because we care. I hope the players hurt as much as we do.
The thing that hurts me the most is that nothing changed.
A year passed and we’re still the team that concedes the most in the EPL from set-pieces and crumble in the closing stages with no leader.
I barely use that “Cesc’s no leader” line but there IS a difference between us and UTD, they have this sense of urgency that we don’t have, it almost seems as if the players rely on their talent to bail ’em out time and time again.
It was exactly the same last year as well.
What a load of hand-wringing, pantywaist, eyelash fluttering bullshit.
“Oh dear oh my, let’s not be too critical of the lads just yet. After all, there are a few games left for them to fuck up, and we wouldn’t want it to be because some supporters are ripshit over their persistent, predictable lack of concentration, discipline, and effort and say as much. And goodness me, let’s not be too critical of the manager. After all, he won lots of stuff about a decade ago. We can forgive his lack of discipline, his insistence on repeating the same tactical errors, his ‘excuse of the week’ show, his bitching and moaning at anyone after yet another Arsenal crapping on the pitch. It can’t be HE, it can’t be his side that are responsible for losing, after all. No no no…it must be WE SUPPORTERS, because we care critical and we don’t respond to shite efforts by cheering them on even louder.”
The experiment is over. Third or fourth in the league = failure. If you don’t see it that way, please never take a position of influence with this club. The youth have matured and they are collectively, failures. There is nothing more to wait for but to see them become old failures. Wenger is too stubborn to see it. Perhaps it’s because there are too many enabling supports like the Holic who sit quietly and put their belief, as Wenger does, in a cast and a system which cannot win, and will never win this league, and cannot win and will never win a CL cup. Never.
Sorry friends, but if Wenger is not going to recognize the failure and change the method, he has to go.
And we don’t have to wait until the end of the season to speak the obvious.
Some people just walk on the grass because the sign says ‘don’t walk on the grass’ eh Larry? Hey let’s not just replace Wenger but just swap the entire squad with Stoke or something shall we…especially as all we’re doing with what we have watching them become ‘collective older failures’. That’s not supporting a football team that’s abandoning ship.
I don’t think saying waiting til the end of the season is abnormal and who is to say that some wholesale changes aren’t on the way? Do you really…for even a moment…think that AW tells the media what he is truly planning/intending? In truth beyond what we read/gets hacked by the hacks we have no idea what he is thinking for the summer, I think it makes sense to wait and see. Surely you don’t write off Nasri, Szch, Walcott, Song, Wilshere, Diaby, Ramsey, Djourou at the age they are at? It’s akin to finding some moldy cheese on one shelf in the fridge and throwing out everything in the thing….
It’s amazing that we support the same club but surely there is a happier medium than replacing everything and everyone involved with the playing side of the club. Do you really think we’re as far from success as you portrayed? If so then we’d just disagree. I’m not happy with where we are versus 2 months ago…not at all….but I don’t think pure rage and panic is the answer nor even plausible. Don’t you think a new number 2 would be good for AW/the team? Don’t you think insisting AW brings in an older head or two on the pitch would be good for the team? We did purchase older players such as Arshavin / Rosicky / Gallas and for whatever reason I don’t think they’ve provided the needed leadership. It’s not as simple as saying he’s 27, that’ll fix everything.
I wish we could talk and find more middle ground…collectively…as supporters….because we want the team to succeed of course. I think Wenger is showing the strain this season BECAUSE he believed this squad were ready, I also think he’s intelligent enough to see he was not quite correct. That doesn’t mean he was unrealistic, we’re not in 9th place.
Trev, TS, 1974, N&, Steve T- top supporters at the bar tonight. Well argued, and I feel no less proud of the Arsenal then ever in no small thanks to you all. A round and cheers for solid support. Now we just have to get the team back up for it…
Love you Arsenal. Always will.
Well said ‘holic.
I’m sorry but this is so wrong….
It’s because of this attitude that we are in this predicament.
Your blog basically says….Lets wait til the horse has bolted….and now it has.
We keep waiting for AW to make some necessary improvements – but he doesn’t acknowledge that there’s even a problem!
All I see, is that my beloved Arsenal getting worse year on year.
This is not acceptable!
Tim,
You ask “who is to say that some wholesale changes aren’t on the way?”
Quite simply Arsene Wenger has said that very recently.
He has already ruled out big summer signings.
I’m not saying go Beserk Arsene….but a decent centre back, A DM and a decent striker that won’t spend half the season out injured.
Without these improvements, I’m seriously worried.
Another rough result, I don’t know what to think at this point. It’s like we never expected Bolton to go to the ball on the crosses. Both times we were beaten to the ball and we paid dearly. Boy, Jon Champion (announcer) was laying down the hammer on Arsenal at the end of the game, some may call it harsh, perhaps it’s just the harsh truth:
“millions in the bank but no commanding central defender”
“so much promise, so little delivered”
You can call it anti-Arsenal bias but if we don’t like it, let’s do something about it.
Arsene looks worn-out, he looks like a man that knows his youth project can’t win a trophy. Let’s get 3rd and start over next year.
@ Larry spot on,the usual suspects still have their heads in the sand and fingers in their ears,they don’t or won’t listen to views like yours. But time will prove you right.
There is no simple solution to our problem. If there were it would have been fixed long ago.
We just need to get behind Wenger and hope he can fix the many small problems which add up to our misery.
Lets leave the thinking process to the powers that are at Arsenal, and get on with our job as supporters.
Oh Larry my post will be deleted when Holic signs in a see it,hope you get to see it before he does!
@ Sajit oh there is a simple solution, Wenger get your head out of the sand and buy some EXPERIENCED players.
I fell in love with football at the age of 9 when I saw a ponytailed magician carry his team to the finals of the World Cup where he was cruelly robbed by fate of the cup that he richly deserved. Three years later, I fell in love with a team from London, the greatest football team in this world. I do not know why I fell in love with the Arsenal. I had not watched enough football to differentiate tippy-tappy from pulisball or followed the game long enough to know about the glorious traditions of the Arsenal. Something clicked and that is all that was needed. My education of football was through the Arsenal way and I cannot think of a better master to have taught the beautiful game, the way it should be played and the way clubs and fans conduct themselves. In the years that followed, as an angst ridden teenager railed against the perceived injustices of the world, the Arsenal was an ever present source of unbridled joy. In 03-04, when I had the worst year so far of my short life, the Arsenal also gave me memories which will make my heart soar till the day I die. Now, at 25, I am doing well for myself with the long awaited trip to London to be at my Mecca not too far away. Considering the unconditional joy that I have received from the Arsenal all this while, they now have my unconditional support, no matter how many trophyless seasons go by.
Come on You Rip Roaring Reds!
Shouting myself hoarse from 4500 miles away,
Gooner from India
‘holic, as always sums up my views entirely. We all know the team is not complete and a little tinkering will et it right. But let’s do that after the next four matches and get behind the team now.
@133 Larry
I am not a supporter of your views Larry and this just about sums you up. 2nd, 3rd or 4th may not be good enough (especially for you), but it doesn’t mean the team are failures. Achieving success has many interpretations.
To me, moving into a new stadium, keeping us in the Champions League for 16 years and challenging for most other trophies season after season signifies a level of success. It may not be as good as I would like it, but I am happy to wait until this team get a little older. As Cesc said, Puyol achieved nothing until he was 26.
My glass is always half full and even during the darkest moments (and over 58 years there have been quite a few of those) first and foremost I have always supported the team to the hilt. Of course, that is the problem with the internet age when every Tom, Dick and Larry can have a view and make out it is the majority’s. Fortunately this is not the case with most of those that visit the ‘holic’s blog and post comments.
Had a message from a drunken associate ( I was going to say friend) in the UK suggesting Arsenal`s secret service has planned to plant the flu bug at Old trafford this week. Is there any truth to this despicable rumour? (not a bad idea though).
Just a few thoughts –
If a team of professional footballers–at the level of the Premier League–confidence can be eroded by anything going on in the stands…that tells you all you need to know about that team. Not mentally strong enough. Period. If you’re booed at home all that should do is steel you to turn them around or shut them the fuck up. These aren’t fragile infants, they’re highly paid pros in the alleged best league in the world in their sport.
I would be beyond shocked if Cesc were back. We all know he wants to leave, plated like it all year, and the recent comments in the press are the final nail, I think a very cynical ploy by Cesc to force Arsene’s hand. You simply can’t say that shit in the press, that your manager would have been fired by now in other leagues, it makes the boss lose face in the dressing room and that can’t stand. What a rotten little fuck he’s turned out to be, nice way to repay the man that has so much to do
with the player you became and gave you an undeserved armband.
Any talk of Wenger out, etc, might be fun or cathartic or whatever but it’s purely academic. He’s going nowhere until his deal runs out.
In addition to the usual CM CB requests, I’d personally like to see a genuine big target striker, and an actual winger to get him some crosses and create some width (Ashley Young? Yeah I know he’s going elsewhere but no deal is done…) so we can go to an oft-mentioned missing plan B. Looks like there will be a bigger kitty and with the Cesc money (take the 35 and fucking run after this poor season) and whoever else is sold, will be very hard to excuse not making some significant buys.
Cheers ‘holic, thanks for that, spot on. Thought we were unlucky yesterday. Not going in top or anywhere else (for a very long time, perhaps permanently) as its far too depressing. Not whats happened to Arsenal but the vitriolic bile being spewed, often by those who should know better. Gonna lurk on here instead, and as its a Bank Holdiay, I’ll start the day with a lager. Cheers!
@139 re: Wholesale changes….
That’s my point entirely. Do you really think (based on the last 15 years) that AW tells the media what he has in mind? He’s never done that and never will….he know exactly how the transfer markets operate. If he says he plans to purchase a goalkeeper of a certain age with premier league experience…..the prices double overnight. If he says he’s not got confidence in this team who for the most part haven’t won anything yet, he gets less from them.
I don’t for a moment presume what will take place this summer, but I’m pretty sure you won’t see 9 player sold and 6 brought in like some lunatics are calling for.
April 2010. They must not happen again.Things must change.Quality experienced players must be brought in.We need a commanding CB.Wenger needs to spend big.No more end of season collapses
April 2011:Its the same old story.Nothing has changed.In fact we are worst this year because Man Utd and Chelsea have been well below par.And we still need a commanding CB.But dont worry we have great mental strength
Utter tripe mate.
The team are a bunch of gutless wonders led by a gutless wonder.
How Chelski or Manure will win this Premier league is a crime after
5yrs of “building”.
Blowing two goal leads to your most hated rivals.
The comic blowing of a FOUR GOAL lead away.
The utter gutless dropping of 2pts when taking the lead in the 90+ minuet.
this is not something to keep shtum about.
We need to say it loud that we have been fool that the Emperor has no clothes.
Yeah lets back Wenger the dictator who will not make the changes that have been necessary for the last 6 years
Lets back our multi-millionaire players who win fuck all
And lets pay the highest ticket prices in the world(going up 6%)
And lets all follow Wenger over the cliff like lemmings
Have some guts man and tell the truth Wenger lost the plot in 2008 and things have gone down hill since.
Finishing 3rd behind the worse Man utd team in over 25 years is not progress
Our club is about profits not trophies
6 years is not such a long time, is it?
I’ll have whisky, please
Players out:Almunia Eboue Clichy Squillaci Diaby Denilson Rosicky Vela and Bendtner.Cesc will join Barcelona of course
Players in:Schwarzer (as cover for Szczesny and goalkeeping coach)Baines Cahill Parker(as captain)Benzama
Bould as No2 Keown as Defensive coach
But we all know it wont happen Almunia and Bendtner will go but the other deadwood will be kept at the club.And the signings we desperately need just wont happen
I am so sad today for the third time in 4 years we have thrown away the title.Its its no one elses fault other that the hapless Wenger
Has anything really changed this season?
We have a new owner who says nothing will change- Check
Same mananger playing the same tactics-Check
Same pitty patty no shot football-Check
Same poor defending at set pieces-Check
Still no brick shithouse CB-Check
RVP misses half a season as usual-Check
Still bottle it in the run in-Check
So nothing has changed after all.Now where’s Bill Murray
Morning all. A bit early to digest 157 drinks..so – nice blog Holic.
My despair of yesterday has changed to the bizarre curse of the supporter – dreams of next year!
My championship manager brain has some changes planned – but not at the helm of the ship!
The Happy train, 2011-12 is waiting in the sidings and accepting reservations….
A drink for all the regulars, you know who you are….
Nice post, read it but I feel terribly bad that a club this loved continues to let down its supporters. And we all know what the problem is. Arsene knows and why does he not address it. Because Barca has done it successfully ? This is the EPL I wonder what Barca would play against a team like stoke. the ONLY problem we have is DM and DEFENCE! Now I am feeling terribly bad about reading sport comments all over the net because they have been right about us all season. “When it matters the most we will not stand up and be counted” I am off to play Ages of the empire!
Hi Holic,
I read your post and up to about drink 70.
It’s the same old support. Are we waiting for Stan to put his hands in his old pockets before we get behind the team?
Are we about to become the new Chelsea or City paying 20-30 mil for a player not worth it?
Everybody knows my views:
1) Mental strength
2) Good support
3) Good refereeing
Give us those and you may see an invincibles-esque team re-emerging.
I do know that Wenger does know how to assemble and manage a trophy winning team.
So where does that leave us now?
Let’s win our next game for now!
Cup of tea anyone?
Re: my thoughts about needing a real winger…two pretty good ones pretty pissed off at Bayern about now I’ll bet. Oh wait scratch off one of them, we already have a Dutchman with glass legs. The other one will do, the one we should have bought two years ago.
btw
Just in case everyone didn’t see it, Wenger addressed everybody’s concerns in his pmpc yesterday:
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/-we-have-not-been-stable-enough-defensively-
Larry, thank you for instructing me as to how I should think.
May I ask you in return to read again para2.
Particularly the bit about the criminally unintelligent.
Another very good read, holic.
Cant wait for the season to end now and, as in recent years, just hoping next season will be better.
Esso, I’m in the same boat as you fella. Waiting to read one other blog this morning then heading off for a shower, and the big wide world where real people walk, and get ill, and worse.
Jebus.
Thank you Reds.
I also wanted to take this opportunity to Congratulate RVP on breaking the Prem league all time goal scoring record for scoring 7 goals in 7 consecutive away games. This man’s a monster scoring 17 times in 16 games.
In tribute I would like to post this quote from Walcott from the Sunday Telegraph (not lost in translation). Dedicated to those who believe Theo is a squad player at most:
He said:
“I could play up front in a two with Robin. I’ve set up so many of his goals this season, probably half of them. We just seem to have that connection.
“I love playing with him, he loves playing with me and we are gelling very well. He’s got 18 goals, 14 in the Premier League and I think I’ve set up his last seven. It’s working.”
GT. I think you miss the point. I don’t know anyone who either expects or wants stan to dive into his own pockets. But the question for me is a simple one. As a club do we make the best use of what we have? We pay the highest prices in the land, we pocketed 40 million from Citeh and are then told that we do not need to add to a squad because it is good enough. Bold statements to make and no doubt one that will bite you on the arse if the same glaring weaknesses come back to haunt you.
As I say to my kids every day. You don’t have to be the best in the world, just be the best you can be. I for one don’t think we are the best we can be as a club.
Steve T –
If my memory serves me right didn’t we get that (alleged) 40 Mil from City in 2009? Since then we have purchased two central defenders.
Or do you mean we should have bought a replacement defender that year? If I recall we had cover and even unloaded Senderos who couldn’t get in to the side.
It came down to the policy of being able to accommodate everybody again.
As Holic said I’ll be back at the end of the season with my facts and full opinion!
Have a drink on me fella!
A good blog holic, considering the circumstances.U’ve managed to remain calm while the rest of us(me included) lost our heads at some point during the season.
The defeat just washed over me.our season was over anyway.Forget 2nd place we have to make sure we get 3rd.
GET BEHIND THE MANAGER??????…are you serious??Wenger has totally lost the plot….can’t you see it??
He has said he is sticking to his philosophy, in spite of an absolutely appalling season by ARSENAL standards, and by any clubs standards when considering 4-4 newcastle 2-3 and 3-3 spuds ,,,,,as you know these games were when we were leading by at least 2 goals.
Do you believe in him still???
wake up and smell the coffee…….get behind the once mighty ARSENAL FC…not the manager. Wenger is not good enough for our club, and he is trading on reputation 6 years ago. Remember it doesnt take 6 years to build a winning team.Dont be taken in by his excuses and clever “spin”
This is not WENGER FC. its ARSENAL FC
Holic,
If it was Arseblogs you were waiting for it seems he’s missed the happy train and is hurtling of down the dark tracks !! Now where did I put them Mushrooms 😉
The mushrooms have spoken all we need know is the The Farm and Altogether Now,
Spot on Dad, makes sense to me.
Am I allowed a small libation?
Cheers
I feel as raw as many ‘Holic. I really do. And I must admit to a sleepless night. Silly for a man my age perhaps but there it is. Personally I hate the a abuse that Wenger gets. Pure, horrible abuse with no constructive criticism attached and no purpose other than to lash out. When people are hurt they will lash out but perhaps the nature of it often says more about them than their target. I have been a supporter since I was a kid and my Dad before me. The whole family in fact. I have felt that Arsene has played fast and loose with the club for several years now and at the beginning of recent seasons and after the January transfer window has closed I have doubted that he had it right. But we are where we are with theory piling upon theory and a hundred sub-plots running beneath. My biggest problem is this crazy, deluded insistence that Wenger keeps proclaiming that he will not change and that mass changes would be “stupid”. It seems to me that we are in a situation where pretty big changes certainly are called for and I am not so sure that Arsene Wenger is the man for that job any more. I don’t want to get into the details of what is wrong or who should say or go. Others have and no doubt will cover that ground eloquently over the coming hours, days and weeks, as they always do. As far as finance and infrastructure go, Arsene has the ammunition to change things but is he too psychologicallly scarred by recent events and the failure of his pet project to do what is necessary? And are the players really going to shoulder the responsibilities that they should or will some of them want a fresh start somewhere else. All of these questions will be answered soon enough. But if AW starts on the ” Nothing will change” spiel again then, for me, it’s all over for him.
rt –
Twas Arsene who remained unbeaten in the league v the spuds including the previous 5 years until this time last year!
Well, I feel strange today, I am not as disappointed as I could have been, not really angry either, just… resigned I guess.
As ever, I enjoyed reading your blog ‘Holic, I always do, and it is no coincidence to find that measured, intelligent tone refelcted in most of the thoughts expressed in the drinks and the quality of the debate taking place here is a testament to that.
I do disagree with you on one topic though: I don’t think waiting until the season is over to start a serious debate makes any difference.
I don’t think that expressing our opinions now would amount to reacting “in th heat of the moment”, because for one, this “heat of the moment” has been going on since the Carling Cup final, and for two, as someone put it in the drinks above, this restraint just didn’t work as we have been knocked out of competition after competition after competition anyway, all the while always finding new ways of handing initiative back to our rivals and finding new ways of not winnning our games.
So, either way, starting the debate now will not be worse than waiting for the season to end, and personally I don’t think that what we write on the internet makes any difference in the grand scheme of things, it’s not like you expect Arsene or his players to be reading our comments anyway, and even if they did and were affected by it to the point of jeopardizing a top 4 finish, then maybe they are not made for playing for the Arsenal anyway.
As I said, this “moment” has lasted since the CC final, so our commenting on it wouldn’t amount to a knee-jerk reaction on our part.
So, what needs to change at Arsenal?
In my humble opinion: very little yet so much.
I still believe Arsene can lead us to glory, but I think a change of approach is absolutely vital at the moment, and not a big paradigm shift either.
I think I am not wrong in saying that many of us believe that these players have a psyc
Sorry I accidentally hit the submit button there…
Maybe a sign that it is all pointless after all..
BRB
GT. I hear what you say but I feel it is a case of quality not quantity. But as you rightly say, this is a debate for the end of the season.
@ 64 Henry Vieira
Tell your work colleague they gave me 5 years. That was 6 years at the end of July, so NEVER give up! Sometimes the docs are wrong! But all my best to him!
As for the Arsenal, I just want some ‘dirty’ players again. Real players who don’t mind getting kicked in the head, who don’t feign injury, who want to take responsibility. Who have some mental and self-discipline. Who collectively stand as one and don’t allow themselves to be bullied.
Yesterday was just the repetition of the same amateurish mistakes. Over 50% of the goals we have conceded this season have come from set pieces; we can have all the creative players in the world, but if we can’t set up to defend from situations that are always going to happen within a game, then we start at a disadvantage. Why has this not been adressed? It’s ridiculous.
I am at a loss at what else to say. No one is organising them on the pitch, and it’s not the first season it’s happened. There are teams in Division 2 who are better organised than us at set pieces. Why? How? We are the architects of our own downfall.
From the bottom of the JD bottle….
Lol @RVP –
We all feel the same about wanting changes. For one it’s how opinions are put across which could possibly spread like wild fire and can spill over to the actual games. I don’t underestimate the power of the internet
Steve T –
We all want the same things. 😉
Rob,
Whatever you want, on the house.
Adam: “My biggest problem is this crazy, deluded insistence that Wenger keeps proclaiming that he will not change and that mass changes would be “stupid”.”
But mass change *would* be stupid – at least in my definition of “mass change”. To me that would mean getting rid of first-teamers and getting in maybe eight or ten new players just for the sake of change. To me, replacing, say, Denilson, Rosicky and Bendtner with better players (of which maybe only one is a certain starter) would not be “mass change” but could still be all we need. We also need to find the reason for all our injuries because that is, as I and others have repeatedly said, NOT bad luck. It doesn’t matter if we have all the best players in the world if they are on the treatment table instead of the pitch, and injuries have been our biggest problem for years. We have missed Vermaelen badly this year not just because he is arguably our best defender but also because he is a leader on the pitch. If you look at all the awful collapses during the past two seasons they all have one thing in common: Thomas Vermaelen has not play in a single one of them. He alone is of course not the answer to all our problems but it would certainly help if he could return to the player he was.
Rvp-U wouldn’t be wrong in saying some of our supporters have no mental strength as well 🙂
westlondongoon, have a drink on my tab!
REPOSTED (sorry) 🙁
Well, I feel strange today, I am not as disappointed as I could have been, not really angry either, just… resigned I guess.
As ever, I enjoyed reading your blog ‘Holic, I always do, and it is no coincidence to find that measured, intelligent tone refelcted in most of the thoughts expressed in the drinks and the quality of the debate taking place here is a testament to that.
I do disagree with you on one topic though: I don’t think waiting until the season is over to start a serious debate makes any difference.
I don’t think that expressing our opinions now would amount to reacting “in th heat of the moment”, because for one, this “heat of the moment” has been going on since the Carling Cup final, and for two, as someone put it in the drinks above, this restraint just didn’t work as we have been knocked out of competition after competition after competition anyway, all the while always finding new ways of handing initiative back to our rivals and finding new ways of not winnning our games.
So, either way, starting the debate now will not be worse than waiting for the season to end, and personally I don’t think that what we write on the internet makes any difference in the grand scheme of things, it’s not like you expect Arsene or his players to be reading our comments anyway, and even if they did and were affected by it to the point of jeopardizing a top 4 finish, then maybe they are not made for playing for the Arsenal anyway.
As I said, this “moment” has lasted since the CC final, so our commenting on it wouldn’t amount to a knee-jerk reaction on our part.
So, what needs to change at Arsenal?
In my humble opinion: very little yet so much.
I still believe Arsene can lead us to glory, but I think a change of approach is absolutely vital at the moment, and not a big paradigm shift either.
The big problem with this team is its mentality, and two things can remedy that:
Bring in 1 or 2 experienced winners who will take charge when the going gets tough, they will reassure the young players when they’re having an off day, and will bark at them when needed to up their game (see Carra’s attitude with his young defenders in our game against them, Sol last year with us etc..)
Something else I’d like to see as well is see the players REALLY play for him (either through love, guilt or gut-wrenching terror of him)
I am sure they respect him and all want to win for him, but you can’t help but feel that they’re not giving their all for their manager, maybe he’s too nice with them even behind closed doors, or maybe he is not as good in man management and motivational skills as other top managers (Red nose and MErinhou).
Other failings on the pitch can be more easily adressed IMO:
Get rid of you-know-who (Almunia, Eboué, Rosicky, Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner if he wants to leave and Clichy if we find an experienced replacement for him).
As well as clearing the dead wood and improve our second string squad, that will also send a clear message to other players that they must never let their standar drop, and that their manager can be the nice gentlemanly, fatherly figure as well as being an intransigeant boss when the employee isn’t doing his job.
As for other, more tactical changes, I just would like us to adapt our playing style a little bit more to suit the opposition, and be more solid at the back (a defensive coach?) and more clinical and less predictable going forward (Henry to coach our strikers, and a Chicharito-like signing, because we can’t afford the likes of Eto’o, Pato etc..).
I think we are close to greatness, but we won’t ever get there if we don’t acknowledge our problems, and don’t remedy them.
Now let’s beat the mancs, for pride.
Next season starts next week-end.
And there it is ‘Hols. You bare your soul and you got honey and bile. There’s nothing more right now that polarizes gooners than Arsene – a once beautiful romance that took you places that you never thought possible. Now, some of us want the heavens and some of us are satisfied with the memories.
Either way, it’s a shitstorm that’ll work itself out. As you said, it’s not up to us…
What a crock of shit, your view is the only view allowed on here, another Wenger, cant see what everyone else sees
RvP’s Right Foot: agree with most you say, but would like to add that “a Chicharito-like signing” requires quite a bit of luck. Even Alex Ferguson has said (he did it as late as after their game on Saturday) that he never thought Hernandez would have such an impact in his first season. If you look at the players he signed last season they were a bench-warmer from Fulham, a player who only got on the pitch in the World Cup because Vela got injured and a player that Ferguson had never ever seen play. Imagine the uproar if Wenger had bought a player he had never seen and who hadn’t even played in the Portugese first division – and for £8m???
Read holic’s piece and all the comments and just to say, really refreshing to see a forum with a good whole-hearted, well mannered debate. The abusive postings of almost all blog sites is now appalling. Fans feel free to abuse fellow fans in a way which they simply wouldn’t in any normal existence (not without a fight at least), your demand for manners is absolutely spot-on ‘holic. Football is all about opinions, often contrasting, that should be embraced and conducted in a manner which you’d expect in any pub, some take the Internet as a means of abusing others without any consequences. For my penny worth, I’d like to congratulate the fans on here who defended the home crowd. There’s an enormous amount of frustration in the style that our team plays, pretty football isn’t always the dream some of the media would have us believe and to expect the fans not to groan at times is unrealistic. There’s been lots of talk of “mental strength” in recent months, I for one would like to praise the fans for their own mental strength in very trying circumstances. I dont believe our fans are spoilt, I believe we’ve been through an enormous amount of mental turmoil in recent years, I don’t believe any other set of fans could have coped any better. For myself, and I know a lot of fans, that pressure has come from wanting a very decent human being, our manager, to get the success he deserves once more, we know he feels it more than any of us. I think to a man, we want this success delivered by Wenger, and no other man, the split in the support is based upon whether we believe he can swallow some pride and adjust the mindset. I for one would swap the addition of Martin Keown (and associated responsibilities) to our coaching staff for any amount of transfer activity in the summer, and that’s the sort of adjustment (and swallowing of pride) that I’m looking for.
Lars. Let’s not quibble over the term “mass “changes”. I think 4 or 5 changes are entirely appropriate and if previous experience is anything to go by, this would mean “mass changes” to Arsene. More specifically and with regard to yesterday’s team. The only defender I would regard as a regular first team player is Sagna. Djourou and Kos should be second choice players. Buy a truly world class dominant centre half and play him next to Vermaelen. Sell Clichy, he is not Arsenal quality and has been slowly deteriorating for years now.
HD,
Welcome on board and carnt argue with any of that have a pint on me, Westlondon good luck fella keep confounding those docs and join me and HD in a swift one,
CG,
I’ve rolled one especially for you 😉
anon
you’re not very good at reading, are you?
adam, it sounds like you and I think along more or less the same lines. And maybe that is what Arsene considers “mass change”, maybe not.
Bolton fan here – you may not think I have a right to a view, but here it is anyway. With Cahill and Sturridge in your team ( and possibly our third goalie, Al Habsi, out on loan at Wigan) you would have won the Premiership.
And stop bleating about six barren years. In fifty three years we’ve had two semi-final losses, one on penalties and last weeks debacle.
Finally, Owen Coyle does not exist, don’t come looking for him!
Nicely measured piece, ‘Holic. I think you nailed the questions perfectly. Question two is a toughie….I’ll need to think about that one! Does it carry extra marks?
And….
– my viewpoint is valid and should please be regarded as reasonably held.
– There isn’t a lot wrong,
– There are some significant summer decisions being forced on the club
– Personnel will change,
– The transfer account has got to be dug out of the vaults.
Quintuple YES. Simple as all of that really
At the beach with grandson Henry. Watched the game on Slingbox – brilliant invention. We looked good going forward. Great goal from Robin, just imagine what the last two seasons might have been but for Chellinis ice cream dump truck running over his leg in the meaningless Holland game.
Sun’s shining. Henry has his Henry 14 top on. I have the vP10 strip that rarely leaves my back. “Come on, Putt Putt! You be Cesc and I’ll be Arsenal”. Off we go to see if we can better yesterday’s 32-31 match.
Nice one tarmon.
Good posting. Best to go into media lockdown and forget about football until next Sunday.
I am going to be very interested to see what happens at the end of the Villa home game though!!!
Always reminds me of Clive Owen as he is dying in The Bourne Identity when he says “Look at what they make you give!” That is what it feels like to be a Gooner nowadays.
guys , cheer up , it is just one game , there will be a tomorrow .
looking from the other side of the ocean : television channels no longer offer free italian ligue A any more although there is a very large italian community in canada and usa . reason : as people are addicted to EPL , they don’t want to watch ligue A anymore , the comical , the non sense ligue A , remember they give us free ligue A and charge us to watch you guys EPL .
the EPL is getting much much better , I watch spurs-west broom game saturday and both teams are excellent , not only spurs but west brom is also a good team . so it is not arsenal which is not good enough , it is rather other teams which have improved a lot .
here is summer clearance sale , out :
denilson too slow
bendtner , trop vaniteux , not good enough .
alu , fab, not good enough
rosicky not tough enough , not good enough
sq18 wrong league
and with these out , next year will be better . wilshere , nasri , ramsey , walcott will be better .
The league table doesn’t lie – we’re not good enough to win it. We’ve not been good enough to win it for a while. Arsene’s teen-age midget masterplan hasn’t brought us trophies. Was it wrong to go down this route at the time – all things considered? I don’t think it was – it came close to giving us everything we wanted – but now the tmmp needs to be modified. And the best man for the job? In my humble o – Arsene Wenger. Ureds!
As it is non-critical I will say I have an awful lot of sympathy with that view AL.
Good morning sir. Excellent blog again. I find myself staying away from the internet and all the hot heads during the post match hours.
Let’s support the team through the remaining games and discuss what’s next then.
A pint of your best plain please barman.
Just off out to top up aj. Three packs of ten gone this weekend already. Thank God for Tesco, 2 packs for £15 🙂
Watched your game. Issues that you guys face at the moment are minor. But if you get rid of Wenger there will be a cheer up th road. Why because he has taken your club further than you could ever imagined and so many of you have been drunk on your success for so long that you have forgotten.
Mean while, Spurs will most likely fail to make fourth, players will become disgruntled and the team will go through a tough patch. WBA was even worse we hand them a draw!
I fond it amazing that the media are feeding on Wengers misery, when up the road our Geezer is happpy dodging the bullets. Maybe this is a good thing.
Any way HOLIC there’s always room at the Spurs if you change your mind
If people want to have a scream up now then that is their right and their decisions, not yours.
203Goonerholic
Just off out to top up aj. Three packs of ten gone this weekend already. Thank God for Tesco, 2 packs for £15
Condoms or beer? lol
Cusop, I think you make a couple of very important points. If you would have woken up from a coma and known nothing about the league table and read the papers you’d think Spurs were sailing high above every other team in the league and Arsenal were fighting to avoid relegation.
For all those who still claim that Arsene doesn’t call things what they are, I’d suggest you read this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/apr/24/arsene-wenger-arsenal-bolton-wanderers
He says more or less exactly the same things all of us are saying. Defensive frailties, conceding goals from set pieces, we have to be more mature etc etc. He knows what needs to be done, if he can do it is another question that is partly out of his hands. But make no mistake about it: Arsene Wenger knows exactly what needs to be corrected in this team.
Enjoyed reading the post-Bolton debate – even if I don’t agree with all of it. But certainly can’t disagree with comments about defensive frailities – who can? Could Steve Bould be the answer? One other comment – to the “Arsene must go” people: Be careful what you wish for. I well remember five or six years ago hearing Charlton supporters moaning about how Curbishley had taken the club as far as he could – and look where they are now.
Ah, Roger, Curbishley! He could be the very man we need to appease the BBB.
@ Dan … I agree with much of what you said about Wenger’s behaviour on the touchline. However, I am not persuaded by the 4-4-2 argument. We haven’t played that formation for years and it is too predictable. 4-2- 3-1 is the right formation as it allows us to play with two playmakers; we just need the right players in the wide attacking positions … Theo and Arshavin have not been consistent enough offensively and don’t offer enough protection defensively.
I am glad Arsene has finally taken ownership of his brilliant but too-often fatally flawed team’s shortcomings … but is he flexible enough in his thinking to address the obvious flaws?
Why is there so little genuine competition for places in the first team starting XI? As Arshavin has demonstrated, Arsenal players have to work really hard to get themselves dropped. We have a first team squad of 14 genuine quality players but none of the regular starters have to look over their shoulders because another squad player is a threat to his place.
Is there anything more futile than a Gael Clichy cross? I thought he would become a truly great full back but over the last three years he has not fulfilled his potential.
There are a few things,which we all know have been missing in this Ars squad for the past few years:
1- Fitness (way too many injuries to key players)
2- Defending technique (we are quite amusing to watch from a neutral’s point of view,as we screw up in a way that no one else could ever conceive of )
3-No Leadership ,none at all.
And i think everyone know what the solution could be like:
1-Find WORTHY replacements for injury prones (not some french league 2 player)
2- Get a coach who could teach these kids ,how to defend .
3- Either let cesc go or buy a viera-esque player ,who can lead from the front.Who can shout/yell/scream/swear at the players if he finds them jogging the way (diaby/denilson does while playing against top rivals)
Pretty simple,’eh ? let’s see what Le prof. does in the summers.Meanwhile,we need to beat UTD at the Emirates.We must beat them ,not for the title but just to bring them back to earth and also to finish the season strongly.
@Lars, RVP’s Right Foot. No doubt, Chicharito has turned out to be the signing of the season. But not only does such a signing require luck in the first place, so does the player staying fit. Would we have had the goal scoring problems we’ve had if we still had the pre-shattered Eduardo, now 28 and reaching his prime, to poach all those scruffy goals we never seem to get? Or even a season’s full RvP for once?
@adam. Agree we should add a top-quality central defender to partner Vermaelen. I can’t decide whether Djourou or Koscielny would be the first choice to play with him from among the current CBs, which suggest that neither is the right one, though either could be, although you have to find that chemistry that makes a great CB pairing. Clichy has had an inconsistent season. Question is whether that is a blip, as often happens to players in their mid-20s, or whether he has passed his peak.
Afternoon All!
Nipping into the bar for a catch-up in-between decking duties handed down by Management. Oh the glamour….
I see, as usual, that regulars and most of the new visitors have upheld the fine tradition here with well argued posts and some some really excellent points.
Even Cusop has posted well – it must have been good because Lars thought it worthy of a response. It’s almost a shame that you’re an LWC mate. Do you come here for the quality? 😉
Glass half-full or glass half-empty, I think both sides of the coin make some very valid points, all worthy of debate. Generally speaking, we all want the same things and we all love our club.
I also note the other ‘usual suspects’ here proclaiming our delusion and that we have our heads-up-our-ar*es. When I read their posts I can only think that when you point the finger at somebody there are usually three fingers pointing back. There’s no pleasing or reasoning with some people….
Sun is shining here so a refreshing round for all that want one please Mr. Barman. I have a pint of the black stuff. Back to bloody woodwork restoration. Cheers all!
TS and other Holics,
I’m an AKB but ever since he came out and said that he never believed TV5 would be ready for this year, I felt like he’s just trying to trick us and smooth talk us and felt sort of betrayed, hurt and insulted.
It was TV5 who was “weeks away” that was the reason for not bringing a good CB (and I’m usually not a “buy buy buy buy” guy but Samba was available and a good, tough CB with a relegation mentality of no taking prisoners, kicking to row Z – even though he did sign a new contract with Blackburn, but I would have wanted to see if he does that when an offer from the Gunners is on the table).
It was that comment that made me realize that changes haven’t been made cause once again we are 5 games left needing to catch the rest but we just can win our games.
I know a leader isn’t something that is so easy to buy, but to ignore the need for a CB and then take the blame for it is useless, I’m not looking to blame anyone, I’m looking to win.
Lars,
If you think Gooners are eating each other like lemmings on the cliff. Just look at the spurs sites. We are now terrified what will happen with out CL footy. May be we should set up two lynch mobs.. We will lynch wenger of your lynch Redknapp. But reality is who are we going to replace them with. You have an even more limited pool to choose from then us!!
Let’s face it Alex McLiesh has accomplished more than Harry!
Support must be given throughout regardless of certain misgivings, especially in match attendance. Is it any coiciencice that our away record is more impressive than at home? As fans at home matches we collectively haven’t help.
That said I do understand the supporter’s frsutrations, it is same old same old. The AGM will be telling this summer, I suspect the questionning will be demanding of answers and I suspect the club will spin responses that are as usual a bit criptic, defensive and unspecfiic about any change that may or may not occur. I fear again that Wenger will indicte he has the ability to use the transfer market and that story through then summer changes from ‘Will buy 2-3 top players’, to ‘May sign at most 2 players’ and actually not much of any note will happen.
If the club take us for mugs, if they sell us spin, if they raise prices by 6.5% and if they tell us we are silly/stupid people (Mr Chair) then I think many supporters will decide to no longer attend and I wouldn’t blame them.
I and I presume most supporters just want a honest frank assessment, if we cannot be honest about where things have gone wrong how can we possibly move forward? As ‘holic says, that’s for later. Let’s not make it any worse than it is by our own action otherwise the doom becomes self proficating.
Cusop, thanks for that, pal – some perspective there. Though we’ll definitely pass on the lynching!
In amongst the furore it seems a few of us have forgotten how good we’ve had it compared with 15 other teams in the league.
Not that we should be grinning like a bunch of halfwits at our predicament – hailing the latest capitulation as a success. But we do have the nucleus of an incredible team, we have all but secured CL football again for next season, so let’s raise a glass to that and bemoan the underlying issues in a few weeks – afterall, we all know what they are!
Randy
If we went of to lynch Wenger, we would listen to him. Next thing we would have a bunch of midgets getting us into the CL.. We have head start with Lennon Modric and Pieneer.
The You lot would have Harry and the media would love you and he would spend all your money !! On players that are 30+ and tell you that Phil Nevelle would bring the your club a winning mentality and you would end up with Joe Cole on stretcher for 120,000 quid a week.
No if I were you lot I would chill!! and start wearing our teeshirts
Theres always next year!!!!
Severely gutted today boys, read all the comments and agree and disagree with a lot of them. The split down the middle with our thoughts on the manager is becoming more apparent. Nothing has changed in the last 3 seasons under le boss it’s so frustrating to see some players not give a toss about the team or position we’re in and ultimately AW is not getting 100% out of this group of players. We’ve called for changes before and i’ve kept faith that they would happen and they have not it’s so demolising to see AW on the touchline obviously go through the motions and cunts from other clubs laughing their fuckin socks off at him in the pub beside me he’s doing all sorts with the water bottles at the moment the fella is in more torment than we are he knows his “vision” is failing will he make the required changes?? I don’t think so tbh this club needs a shake up. We’ve all said before that no player is too big for the club and there is life after they’ve left and that applies to the manager of this club too. Some fans seem to think that if AW leaves we’ll be relegated
Pint of the black stuff for me bartender. Cheers
Right, first coat applied and back for some fun.
Snir @ #214,
I feel the pain with you mate. I think I know exactly where you’re coming from in terms of the way the Vermy injury information was released and the knock-on consequences. In fairness to AW, I think there was a little something lost in the translation i.e. I don’t think he wanted to deliberately mislead us at the time but many share your view that was how he came across when taken at face value. An experienced CB with defensive leadership qualities would have been very welcome in the new year and I think it will continue to be one of the subjects that will not go away until it is properly addressed by the club.
Cusop @ #215/218,
I hate to say ‘told you so’ but ‘Awwy has a big track record of leaving a trail of destruction behind him after he moves on. Why did you think your (small) club would be any different? It seems clear that he and the media are building him up to replace Capello and the FA are almost certainly daft enough to let it happen. Lord knows, he might even be successful! However, I wouldn’t swap AW for Le Twitch for all the c*nts at SHL – sorry couldn’t resist that little dig 😉
On a brighter note, once St.Totteringhams Day has passed I’m going to nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize for helping to cross The Great North London Divide.
Well done Cus, you have brightened my day no end and would genuinely like to offer you a drink on my tab. Were you there on Wednesday? Did you enjoy?
Cusop, I don’t read Spurs sites – I was thinking of the general attitude in the media. But I am sure that things aren’t that rosy amongst Spurs fans either.
Sorry for the cross post ‘Holic, but found this timely and interesting, considering Cosup’s lingering around the Arsenal:
http://legendaire.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/a-spurs-fan-just-emailed-me-this/
Guinness, as usual. Cheers.
BTM, that “crystal ball” of yours is really something else. The BBB’s did put an end to our season…Birmingham, Barcelona & Bolton.
Evening Holic & Holic`s
I am more dissapointed with myself of late, while watching the game I found myself expecting a defeat.
Which ever way anyone choose`s to dress it up this current form could see us drop out of the top 4. This isnt an observation this is a fact.
I dont want to bash the players or manager, but if everyone else can see we need a few world class players, why cant the manager ?
Over the last 6-7 weeks my expectation with everyone else`s has dropped week by week. I dont expect us to win trophies every year nor do expect us to sign a Messi every season.
However I do expect the maybe next season song to get closer. When it counts we are found wanting. Is this due to lack of experiance ? lack of desire ? lack of hard work ? lack of fighting spirit ? I dont know !
Somthing needs to change ! Mr Wenger you are the only one to make this possible. So over to you.
Just leave the bottle please barman.
pik @ # 222,
Cheers for that link. I sense all is not well over at The Sh*thole 😉
And yes, I think a section of our fans would be better fans if they were to get a grip on our true position relative to others.
We do seem to be moaners by default but that’s us. Better to embrace it and move on?
24 hours after game and a 6 pack of Coors light in the garden.
I still cant fathom what makes me follow and spend monney on this
team, the car journey home was the quitetest i have ever known and i remember york away in cup, wrexham also in cup, even 6-1 defeat at old trafford, last years fuck up at wigan.
but words failed us all it is as if we in a vacuum as were the 4000 travelling gooners who were as quiet as i have ever known.
I have reached an all time low in 47 years i have seen it all the last year of billy wright, being beaten by Winterslag under Terry Neil,
but these so called team of golden boys have not made any progress in the last 4 years, the club want a 6.5% increase on my season ticket and also an increase on my away ticket scheme membership.
We have a manager who will not listen or take any critictisum , when confronted an an AGM he got rattled, fluttered his eyes at Real Madrid and the board offered him a larger contract which he signed immediately, a thing he never did before. He is in a position of unbelievable power which is not healthy for this club, we also have an American owner and CEO who judge success in USA on profits rather then silverware, so its a vicious circle.
I think something has got to change and i think Mr Wenger should full on his sword, he has given me fantastic memories that will remain but every year that he remains will tarnish this memory.
There is one manager who would love to mange Arsenal and i believe the board should move heaven and earth to get him.
Pep Guardiola is the man to take us forward.
But what do i know i am a customer as we are now called.
Off to finish a nice 12 year old malt.
Holic…..you may have 50 years of watching football behind you but if you haven’t worked for half a day in football, your opinion counts for toffee.
What we are seeing is not the result of one poor decision or even one summer’s poor decisions. It is the culmination of 6 years of egotism and obsession with a youth policy that has clearly failed.
The financially prudent business model that the board has trumpeted so often was designed so that they could sell out and cash in their chips which they have now done. It was never done for the benefit of the supporters, the lifeblood of the club but increasingly treated just as ignorant punters to be milked for every pound they can get. In fact, if they are plastic Gooners who don’t remember what it was like to have a proper football team and winners like Adams, Keown, Vieira, Bergkamp, Parlour, Ljunberg, all the better.
We are treated with contempt and arrogance (even my Wenger) and any attempt to question the strategy or the decisions made by management is clamped down on ruthlessly (try asking a question at the AGM and see if you get an honest answer. It’s like the North Korean Communist Party Conference).
The point is, it’s not too early to ask what needs to be done. It has been going wrong (my definition of wrong and I suspect quite a few Gooner’s definition of wrong) for quite a few years. If we don’t question it now, it will all be swept under the carpet in the summer. There will be the be the usual promises of new signings until season tickets have been renewed and the money is in the bank and then we either get some 18 year old wonder kid from South America or a second rate French defender on the cheap and more declarations of ‘I believe in the potential of this squad’…..’we have enough players because if we sign anymore, we won’t be able to play all of them and that would kill them’……..’we have 4 world class goalkeepers’…….’we were very close last season and I believe that with the experience we have gained, we will win a trophy this season’……..heard it all before ???
The only way you are going to get anything out of this lot is to stop spending your money, don’t renew your season ticket and if enough supporters do it (and they run out of plastic Gooners) they might just begin to take notice.
Nice opening dbq, and I get the reference.
Don’t want to go into detail but to make the assumption that for the first five of the last six years there was any alternative option for Wenger is to ignore what was put before you in black and white in the accounts every year.
I’m not excusing what has happened in the last twelve months, in my opinion, but please give the man his due. He was working miracles with next to no money.
I don’t know what to think any more.
Beer please. Lots of it.
My answer too zico. I’ll keep you company.
Well said ‘holic mate.
Do you have a Castle lager please?
Will be interesting to note the actual turnout for the villa game and I mean actual bums on seats not the nick lesson school of accounting 😉 If the club wasn’t aware of the frustrations which I find hard to beleive they may get an inkling then,
For the first time in a long while the need for a marque signing to boost spirits is a must for everyone connected to the club- We need to make a statement of intent and early. I still think amongst the bad results not buying in Jan was a big mistake as most were left feeling deflated and that we’d missed a trick I can only assume that was felt on the playing side to,
Not that my view matters a jot to those in higher echelons but I hope they release the strings and Wenger buys as I’d love nothing more than to see him give it to the Arry loving media will it happen not sure but here’s hoping,
greetings holics
it saddens me to say it but what i said 4 months ago was right. we simply aren’t good enough. i said united were better than us then and i was told to support united.
i said a couple of weeks ago that we would not “win the last seven” as many said we would and that we would struggle to finish above chelsea. at this rate we will struggle to finish in top four
some comedian on this blog )or maybe before bolton game) said “only a world class player would get in our first eleven. for starters this is a stupid statement. how many world class players do we have ? on a good day 2 and maybe jack. that is IT. leaving that aside 2 further comments – what is a first eleven anyway ? do united have a first eleven ? they play a team that will win the match. they think tactically but also when “key” players are injured/rested they are not greatly disadvantaged because they know any 11 will do a great job. secondly, its not about “world class” platers (a greatly abused term). its about having players who know their job and will play for the ream and not mouth off about how good they are (please note SN. NB and TW among others)
those that say it just needs a tweak haven’t been paying attention for past 6 years. united will buy schneider, bring through 3-4 of best youth tema they have had in many years and our great team of 24 year olds suddenly won’t look so special. we ahd an opportunity this year that we won’t have again for along long time
Have to say I find myself slightly concerned re our position in the top 4 again this season. Have we really fallen so far in the last few weeks that we could conceivably come 5th?
One more win would make me relax here’s hoping we put 5 past Man Utd!
IDKA,
I agree that some players need to go in the summer (I expect they will). I agree that some players need to come in the summer (I expect they will). I’m not convinced that we need an entirely new team though.
The core of the team is still strong. Szchezny, Sanga (who doesn’t get enough credit), Koscielny, Nasri, van Persie, Fabregas, Arshavin (who was one of our better players against Bolton), and Chamakh (who gave us 11 goals in his debut season) are all more than good enough. That’s why the season is disappointing. There’s a feeling this team is capable of success, but just can’t seem to do it.
Having seen Liverpool’s remarkable “success” with the replacing the entire team approach, I’d prefer not to follow their example.
And as Cusop reminds us above, at least we aren’t Spurs. 🙂
Tsk tsk tsk, Holic. Deleting posts on an open blog.
You criticize me for “instructing you how to think” and then delete my posts?
Methinks you’re as deluded as the manager you defend.
Et tu zico? 😉
Larry, you can have whatever you want left on here if you don’t abuse individuals. There is a difference between criticising Wenger, or indeed individual players, or indeed me, and attaching the expletives that go with your gut reaction. I don’t delete people who disagree with me, as you can clearly see. I don’t delete people for whom the word fuck is noun, adjective, adverb, and pronoun.
I just delete posts, then have gone on to delete three (count them) serial offenders who cannot refrain from attaching words like ‘cunt’, or ‘wanker’ to people who will be huge in this club’s history, or fellow poster’s, or insignificant people like me.
Is that clear? Or do you wish to join a select group. I hope not because your last post is worthy of this answer.
Never let it be said ‘holic doesn’t do irony.
Somebody brought this masterpiece to my attention tonight 🙂
Money, money, money.
That’s all it boils down to. This season our wages + transfers budget has been 40-70% that of our top competitors (the ratio has been steady in the last years) and it looks like this season the football side will barely break even (if it even does). There are 2 main reasons for that gap:
– our sponsor/commercial revenue is 30-40 mils shorter of what it should be and until the 10-year contracts expire there isn’t much that can be done in between, besides pre-seasons in Asia and the likes.
– gifts from sugar daddies that are supposed to dry out when the CL fair-play rules come into action (around the same times our contracts will be unlocked).
Until we close the financial gap we’re worth 4th in the league, like it or not. Anything above that is gravy.
@Chippy: you totally twisted my argument about the support a couple of days ago. Saying we don’t have the support of champions is simply stating a fact, not a blame assigned to home fans.
The sad thing is that a sizable proportion of the malcontent can’t be arsed to look up basic financial information about the club they claim to love, even if it’s been chewed for us by knowledgeable bloggers like the Swiss rambler.
There isn’t any more requirement to be an economist to understand the basics of the situation any more than there’s a requirement to be a football manager to tell us about your magic solution that will make us champions.
`Holic: great find!
zico, ‘Holic, if you are starting a “don’t know what to think anymore” table, could you save me a seat please.
HD @ 190 – really nice post, totally agree as it appears you may have already noticed.
I have said in the drinks before, at the risk of boring people, that Martin Keown coached a back four of Eboue, Toure, Senderos and Flamini (our 8th choice LB that season!) to a Champions League defensive record.
You would guess that Steve Bould is likely to step up in the summer if, indeed, Pat Rice retires, and that could hopefully have the same affect on our current defence.
They cannot be plain “bad” players when you think of the selection process they go through, but an interesting shot from behind the goal, as Bolton scored their first goal yesterday, showed just how shambolic the organisation is.
At the corner for the second goal, Clichy – as usual – was left to try and challenge their tallest attacker in the air. Ridiculous, but not the first time. Remember Carroll’s goal for Newcastle at the Grove this season ?
Bob Wilson made the point on radio today that Thomas Vermaelen would have made a huge difference to the team this season. Sure, we conceded a lot of stupid goals when TV5 was partnering Gallas. But as Bob said, you do not get to captain Ajax of Amsterdam as a young Belgian unless you are pretty special.
It was Arsene Wenger who recruited him, by the way.
Clear out the coasters, get some solid experience in, not megastars, and organize the team properly.
Anyway, that’s it, ‘cos I don’t know what to think anymore.
Nice debate all round. It’s clear that Arsene is going to have to spend in the summer.
But it’s hardly a drag to think that our squad is as talented as the mancs’. I mean I know we have some players of shit quality like Eboue, Denilson, Bendy etc but every squad does. That’s why they are squad players.
What seperates the mancs from us is that they have players who would do anything to win. Like if they scored in the 98th minute, a winner, they would do anything to close out the game.
4-0 lead even with ten men should be enough.
It has to be clear that this year’s league was lost because of mental strength. Of course when you say a player is quality, mental toughness has to account for a bit of his quality. Arsene has to realise that.
Here are some things I would change if I was Arsene 🙂
1. Sell all the passengers who don’t give a fuck and replace them with ones who can fight
2. Buy a cover for Song, who is experienced. Scott parker type. Buy a defensive cover. I think Djourou/Kos/Verm are good central defenders who can only improve
3. Buy a striker( A good one at that)
4. One thing I have noticed, we are most vulnerable after we score a goal. We stop keeping the ball. We start to sit back. I don’t know if it’s a mental thing or tactics. But we suck at this. Pre season should be about keeping the fucking ball and maintaining the same intensity for 20 odd mins after we score.
5. Learn how to defend set pieces. For a club which is in the top 4 it is criminal to concede 50% of the goals through shitty set pieces.
6. Panicking in the last few minutes when we have just a one goal lead- I know it happens to all teams but we experience it more than normal
7. Don’t think the game is over till the final whistle is blown. This has to be drilled down
Cheers
TS @ 237
Let me clarify – I don’t know what to change anymore (certainly not the manager but he himself must see the need to change).
He has been let down by these players sure, but 56% of goals conceded from set pieces is by any measurement pretty negligent – no point in signing a 20m CB if 5 or 6 others still switch off at corners etc.
There are other things that need fixed – and I hope for his and our sake that Arsene Knows.
Matt: “and it looks like this season the football side will barely break even (if it even does).”
This can not be stressed clearly enough. This is the reason that the club is trying to pay off the stadium debt as quickly as possible because we have little to no margin if we start losing money on the footballing side of the business.
dbg: there is one major flaw in your argument than renders most of your post redundant.
“The financially prudent business model that the board has trumpeted so often was designed so that they could sell out and cash in their chips which they have now done.”
The mistake you make here is that you think that the board made their money from the club, which is not true. They made their money from selling their shares, and a title-winning club would have meant that the rates would have been even higher. If personal gain had been their only interest as you say, they wouldn’t have given a flying fuck about the long-term financial state of the club – they would have bought players like there’s no tomorrow and then sold out before the shit hit the financial fan.
Great Blog! Cool heads needed to analyse situation at end of season. In the mean time dig in and lets give manure a taste of arsemedicine.
***Yawn***
Morning Holics. Have been absent for the last 24 hours because I had to give my brain a rest from all of this Anti-Arsenal madness that has been streaming through the bar recently when we have needed the opposite as displayed by our friendly and knowledgeable host!
Someone in the bar pointed to Arseblog as an authority yesterday. I’m not the spamming type but could I possibly and quite humbly recommend Arseblog as additional reading today to supplement our great hosts commendable policing of this blog!
Please note the ways in which AB and our host support our team objectively without putting them down!
We can all learn from one another here and we need to morph our thoughts in to a unified ball of intelligence, as united we stand and dived we are falling.
As Wenger said: “if anyone can convince” him to change his principles he will. Arsene we don’t want you to change your principles at all. We just want to support you to enhance your principles and make them stronger and more successful in the future!
IAWT
“Victoria Concordia Creset”
PS: Holic that’s a nice tune by the way
Tea anybody?
Matt@240,
@Chippy: you totally twisted my argument about the support a couple of days ago. Saying we don’t have the support of champions is simply stating a fact, not a blame assigned to home fans.
I didnt mean to twist your words in any shape or form i just find it hard when people complain about the home fans, By my reckoning the fans of 90% of the clubs up and down the country have the same reaction and beleive me if United had gone 6 years without winning a thing there reactions would be worse than ours Thats the big difference they are still winning things, You hear boos at all the top clubs at half time if things are not going the way of the home side, Ive never been one to boo or jeer cannot see what good it does part from Eddie Mcgoldrick cos he was a class a c### But i can understand certain frustrations especially with the cost nowadays,
Sorry for the ramble but hope it makes some semblence of sense 🙂
We tend to look back with rose-tinted glasses, but if we remember seasons past, we also screwed those up too. We never once retained a title, even though we should have done at least once I seem to recall. Implosions such as being 2-0 up at Bolton and then drawing 2-2 and costing us the title, even with a team of Parlour, Henry, Keown, Pires and Wiltord. That shows you there has always been an element of mental fragility in Arsene’s teams. The difference with those teams was they invariably tended to come back determined and stronger the following season and won something.
There’s not a lot wrong with us, but I think there are several small factors that when you add them up become significant. In no particular order:
1. “Playing the game we love”. This is often brought out by Arsene and the result is a team that wants to walk the ball into the net. Contrast with United who simply want to get the ball into the net.
2. Formation. I’m not sure we can make our formation work from a defensive perspective. We’re simply far too attack minded, but when it breaks down, we can be ‘got at’ too easily. The system also relies too heavily on Fabregas (and RvP) playing and being on top form. Our defensive midfielders are very good at their jobs frankly. I don’t believe our central defenders are that bed. The problem is a collective one borne out of personnel, formation and attitude. Maybe that’s the problem you get when you buy only these technical players: they don’t want to do the other side of the game. Contrast our players’ workrate with Rooney, Messi, Tevez, Iniesta etc.
3. No Plan B when our ‘A’ game isn’t working.
In my opinion the following would help:
1. A proven commanding centre-half that is able to manage and communicate his defenders and can handle both the PL and CL.
2. A proven stronger defensive midfielder.
3. A new striker. You cannot rely on RvP to be fit all season and Chamakh isn’t the 25 a season man.
4. Either a new creative player to take the responsibility off Cesc or a formation that gets more out of Nasri.
5. A new defensive coach.
6. Variation to our game.
Finally, although we’ve challenged for the title this season, I actually feel our teams that challenged in recent seasons were better, i.e. the teams of Hleb, Flamini, Adebayor and Eduardo.
But what do I know!
Sorry ‘hols,
I know you don’t want to slag off others here, but I am one of the people who don’t agree with the LeGroan twins so they won’t publish my comments.
Can you believe that pair, who drove a horse and cart in between Arsenal supporters, are now saying what a shame it is everybody is split.
Unbelievable. You couldn’t make it up.
Very interesting comments from both sides of the debate.
I’m in the ” let’s see what wenger does now” camp myself and attach most of the blame over poor results of late to the lousy mentality of the team’s senior players which has percolated down to infect some of the younger signings.
The message that has to go out is one that is considered basic at most levels of football – if you don’t want to play your heart out – don’t play.wearing that red and white kit is not for you. This is directed primarily at el capitan , who has phenomenal talent but ever since january has been playing as if mommy forced him to go to work. A man who does not respect the manager in public ( by all means , trash him in private) isn’t the guy you want leading your side. Please, return to barca ( or any other team since it’s unlikely they’ll sign him) if that’s where you’ll be happy. you are doing more harm than good by playing in a side you don’t want to play with.
The plan that we go out to play with has got to change as well. We tend to play a short passing , heavy on possession , orgasmic at its best type of football and everyone knows this by now. time to go back to the drawing board. The trend over this season at home has been that the opposition ( from ipswich to liverpool) know that all they have to do is defend well and eventually we’ll lose confidence , make a stupid mistake and hand the game to them on a platter. Ipswich are a relatively inexperienced side and couldn’t pull it off , but succeeded until the 80th minute. There is also a palpable lack of urgency in the players. they seem to be having a kickabout for fun no matter how big the game .. until 70 min or so when someone suddenly informs them they have to play and the score does matter and they go forth guns blazing (pardon the pun).
And this , not managers or budgets or fans , is what has to change IMHO
238
Interesting tactic. Delete a post, and then accuse someone of having included in the post something which cannot therefore be proved. You and I, and anyone who may have read it before you deleted it, know my post did not include any of the offenses you cite. All it did was take Wenger to task for being a once great but now self-deluded manager who cannot…no…WILL not…see that is great experiment has failed. His very recent statements indicate that he sees no reason for any major changes in the cast of characters or his approach to managing the side. Evidently he feels that another year, or what?…two, three, ??? of waiting may produce silverware. Meanwhile we’ll be treated to his steady and embarrassing bleatings about poor officiating, lousy playing surfaces…his list of excuses go on and on…he’s a veritable Pez dispenser of excuses. And we’ll be expected to settle for qualifying for the CL as a victory – a “success.” Don’t think for a second that this doesn’t impart to his players the same belief – they lose because of things that are out of their control, not because of their own play, and after all, what’s wrong with finishing second or third in the league?
Ask Cesc when you watch his backside head south this summer.
But fine. Go ahead. If you’re too hypersensitive to listen to points of view that don’t square with your own views of the club, add me to your infamous list of three. There’s no shame in being sanctioned by a Pollyanna.
Serious allegations Larry – in actual fact you’ll find the Editor in this neck of the woods significantly more tolerant than most.
And if you are added to the list of 3, you can bet your bottom dollar you are very much on the blacklist and there will be much to be ashamed of 🙂
Frustrated and disappointed just like everyone else. Also because I have a problem with my ISP/browser which means that I can’t get goonerholic for long periods, any ideas anyone please?
Now that I have cooled down and the dust has settled I have to say that this team really isn’t far off being very good indeed. I didn’t think there was much wrong with the effort on Sunday just the usual nerves and panic at critical moments and nothing but a few wins will address that. In fact I feel quite sorry for AW, he has put his heart and soul into this team, he has had faith and belief in the players, and supported them through all the trials of the season and has been let down to some extent. Of course he must and has accepted the responsibility after all it is his team selected and nurtured by him and events have shown them to be lacking in some respects, but this is not the time for recriminations. We must continue to support our team together with the staff and management at this difficult time and trust AW to make the right decisions this Summer. I predict that there will be several players leaving us and two or three new players signed. This team only needs experience and leadership in one or two positions together with a genuine striker/goalscorer to come good once the nerves have settled and the confidence returned.
We haven’t had a top goalscorer for ages – yes, RVP is a world class player but not an out and out goal scorer and Bendtner, Chamakh and Vela are not quite good enough. It is true they have some qualities but they aren’t instinctive goal scorers. We need a player to always be looking to score, always making those runs into the box. How often have we seen a good ball crossed and no one is there? It isn’t rocket science it just needs the right sort of player.
I am frustrated and disappointed at recent results and at the failure to win anything again but we should still look forward to next season, I am convinced the step up will be made. On another positive note, Lansbury came off the bench yesterday and took the corner from which Jackson scored the winning goal for my other team. Lansbury could do a lot worse than come back from his loan spell having learnt the ‘never-say-die’ attitude so obvious at Norwich this season.
Onwards and Upwards.
I suppose just about enough time has passed for me to surface again.
The bar contains, on the whole, a good read.
My problem is two fold.
1) I had to check that this wasn’t last years bar, or even the year before’s, as the problems and the discussions are the same.
2) We are actually in relegation form right now. The last few matches equate to about 32 points for a full season. So if the principles of the way we play are to continue, be upheld, call it what you like, then next season could be trickier than we could ever imagine.
“Think the unthinkable”.
Hope not lol 😀
zico @ #237,
I think many here share you malaise, inc. me. I’ll even go as far as whispering that I’m OK for a change in management IF it benefits the club and all concerned. In fact, the way that our club is being besieged at the moment, I wouldn’t be totally surpirsed if a man of Arsene’s means and experience decides that he’d had enough and ups sticks. Hopefully not, just saying. Whatever, I think there’s more harmony in Goonerdom than we might imagine i.e. we all think something needs to change for us to become silverware collectors again. Some good, balanced stuff out there to read amongst the sniping and dross if you can face it. I quite liked an article on ‘Untold’ called ‘Arsenal – Everybody has an opinion!’
oldgooner @ #250,
Well said, I agree. Their post today was almost conciliatory. A bit bloody late for that, I thought.
Larry @ #252,
I have no axe to grind with fellow Gooners. Your opinions are your opinions. You don’t appear to be very open to debate which, I guess, is the whole poit of a forum. You seem to have your mind made up and want to tell us that if we don’t listen and agree with your views then we’re in some way kidding ourselves. What is it that makes you an expert over and above others here? You have some valid points to argue, a change in approach might work wonders.
MtS @ #255
Great post especially your second point. Bowel loosening stuff but I’m going to nervously LOL with you and assume that next season, after some proper summer re-org and strengthening, that we’ll come out all guns blazing.
That’s got to be worth a drink.
Barman, whatever Mark wants and I’ll have a shot of Pepto Bismol.
Afternoon all.
On the plus side of things, we are complete underdogs for the game against Man United. Somehow we seem to play better when that’s the case. A win (or at least a last minute equalizer from us) would do a lot of good. Unlikely, I know, but I don’t ride the happy train for nothing.
And thank goodness for Chelsea’s late run of form. As much as I hate them, their win at the weekend saved us from a rather dreadful possibility (Manure winning the league on our ground).
There you go Joshua. Our luck’s turning already 😉
Not so fast, TS.
Both the scUM and the Neanderthals won tonight. What’s more: Shawc**t got on the scoresheet as well.
Bah! Screw it! As if I needed another reason to test Lars’s generosity! I’ll have a half full glass of whatever’s left at the bar, please. TS will have the other half.
Holics, My weekend in the wilderness made me miss the game but in retrospect I must apologize for my overly optimistic prognostication of a 4-0 victory. I said at the time that it was not intended to set us up for a fall, but it turned out to do exactly that. For the rest of the season, in the interest of not setting us up for a fall, I predict all 4-0 defeats excepting this weekend when the margin may be wider. Lest you all misinterpret my motivation, let me assure you this is all in the interest of keeping my seat on the happy train.
RVP,
Rubbish results but Manure (note: ‘Scum’ is reserved for LWCs) can’t be crowned at our place on Sunday, even if Chelski lose. I’m sure Joshua is right on that. I doubt Manure will beat Farca in the CL final BTW but you never know. Does it really matter now? It’s like a toss-up between a trip to the dentist for route canal work or a trip to the doctor to have your ’emmas sorted. I’d love a drink with you but full pints please Barman 😉
naswi,
Your seat on HT assured. It’s rather empty in here these days. Even zico was seen getting off at the last stop. The MC hasn’t been since just after the draw with the LWCs although I’m informed that its security has been improved.
Onwards ‘Holics, onwards….
OK TS – hold the bus, er, train,,,,
zico only temporarily stopped off to take on board some much needed resupply of happy pills and other medicinal compounds. They will be needed in the weeks and months ahead.
It was a forlorn hope it seems that Indebted would get a serious challenge tonight and maybe a few injuries – I don’t think I have ever seen a worse team in the semi finals of the CL than their opponents (how come we never get that sort of luck?). I feel that a result of some sort is of paramount importance this weekend, or things could turn quite ugly in the stadium amongst “friends”
Still, whilst I have reservations (heh) on some things at the moment, but I have no reservations about my team!
Still points to play for – I agree with someone above who said, next season starts now!
zico,
It’s held.
Talking of luck, sometimes I think that if this team fell into a bucket of t*ts, they’d still come up sucking their thumbs.
Keys please 😉
[…] on it, read around a few blogs and decided against it. The first brilliant piece I came across was written by the ever measured Goonerholic, who pleaded for rational debate and constructive suggestions, rather than the flurry of abuse that […]