Helping The Referees – Inevitable Steps
Apr 13th, 2012 by 'holic
“You ever reffed a game?”
It’s a regular response when I make one of my many pronouncements on the standard of the elite officials in England at present. Such retorts fill my Twitter timeline, and they are understandable. The answer is yes, but obviously not at anything higher than local league level when there weren’t enough officials to go round. I am aware of the issues further down the ladder. Having to admonish your snarling six foot five brickhouse of a centre-forward after he has ploughed through a less physically gifted opponent is not my idea of unpaid fun.
I am equally aware that issues further down the ladder are not a sensible reason for holding up unnecessarily the steps that will assist those who have reached the pinnacle of their profession, and now have to cope with the degree of scrutiny of every contentious decision they make. Television is currently a loaded weapon blowing up in the face of the men charged with running matches, and those further up the foodchain who are making such a pigs ear of running the game.
Frankly, they are fools to themselves. The day when video evidence is grasped as a friend, rather than an enemy, is surely inevitable. Why would the last major sport to utilise it delay any longer. It was thought that the answer to the issues that were regularly highlighted, as ever more cameras were pointed at top-flight matches, was full-time referees. The truth has been that even if you get middle-aged men more training, get them fitter, and pay them a decent salary, they cannot keep up with finely-tuned athletes who ally speed to an ever increasing level of deceit and cunning.
The introduction of video assistance to aid the officials in making more correct decisions also needs to be augmented with some additional measures to help the faceless committees, charged with reviewing incidents and dealing with appeals, a helping hand. Video evidence alone should reduce incidents being referred for action after the event. Another action that could help diffuse the current unworkable system would be the introduction of sinbins.
Take two big calls this week as an example. Whilst few would argue the red card dished out to Wolves Bassong against Arsenal wasn’t perfectly correct under present guidelines, there was considerably more doubt surrounding the similar punishment of Sean Derry as Ashley Young earned a spot-kick at his expense. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the current policy, is it really right that a side should face a double or triple penalty for such offences? Penalty conceded, man down, and possibly a goal against. The consequences seem perhaps out of scale when compared to the original offence.
I’m not the first to advocate sinbins, but in situations such as this they would seem to offer a common-sense alternative. I don’t want to cloud the water with a discussion of intent at this point, but it seems to me that offences resulting in penalties are rarely as threatening to life and limb as some of the challenges that occur outside the box. Regardless of where it occurs, serious foul play warrants a red card. However, a disputed trip in the box, a debatable handball as well, might more reasonably be punished with a ten or fifteen minute spell on the benches. Three sinbinnings (I’ve invented a word there I think) can attract the same additional reprimand as five bookings?
Doubtless some will point out the disadvantages of the measures I discuss above, and that’s fine. What I do know is that the debate needs to happen, and action needs to be taken soon. The officiating and administrative disasters of the past week (years I would argue) have added to the urgency with which those charged with running our game give real assistance, rather than damaging blind support, to our officials.
Please FA, UEFA, and FIFA, don’t wait to be dragged kicking and screaming into the twenty-first century. The last sport to grasp the advantages of modern technology is now too big to continue being run in such an amateurish fashion.
335 Responses to “Helping The Referees – Inevitable Steps”
In!!!!
Champions League?
Top three?
One pint of Guinness, please.
Le Bob?
Welcome maestro. One Guinness coming up ๐
As always the Holic nails it. Nothing much to add really, the day the Blatters and Platinis of this world are removed from their corrupted positions and replaced by leaders who actually care about the game the better.
Ahhh! Synapses clicking. Think I just identified someone! A pint on me too.
One word: rugby.
Ever notice the confidence shown by rugby refs in making decisions and reprimanding captains. When you know your not going to be torn apart after every game and can rely on technology for the tough decisions you can probably ref to a much higher standard. Excellent post as ever.
Those who can, play.
Those who can’t find their way into administrative roles at the FA, Fifa, Uefa.
You will find the odd exception, like Platini, but it is obvious that since he played the game he has been ingesting psychedelic drugs with his cornflakes, and is now resident on Planet Zorg.
The standard of refereeing is poor at the moment, true, but in addition to the idiots in Switzerland with their rules on snoods, disrobing after celebrating a goal etc, the modern player has a lot to answer for.
So much falling around and gamesmanship, it has turned off many I know, they have turned away from the game. It would be good to see video technology brought into deal with the serial cheats as well as the deranged (Balotelli and Barton I’m looking at you).
As for a sin-bin – rumour has it that’s where the Feelgood Tapes ended up ๐
The blundering mo at the Chelsea /Wigan game were disciplined.I am baffled as to why the ref in the MU/QPR game was not likewise punished.We know Young was os before he was brought down.
Had the ref blown ,the penalty would not have been awarded and the game could have changed.
Then Carrick brough down Murphy in similar style to Young.Yet no penalty was given.
Mu could have got only one ot two points from hese games.
That is why many people suspect the FA of ref connivance to perpetuate the rf stranglehold on the epl.And that is why rf can’t win in the cl.
I’m not sure I agree about sin bins. I think the laws are just about all right as they are. The cry a few years back was for consistent interpretation and I suggest that needs to be sorted out first.
On the other hand I’m all in favour of anything that allows justice to be done better. Video review would be a good thing, provided it can be done reasonably quickly. Retrospective changes to decisions would probably also help. I agree with the FA that, with their current stance on referees – the ref is always right – it would undermine them.
The solution to that is simple – change the stance to “The referee’s decision, on the pitch, is final”. Then if the referee makes a wrong decision and sends a player off (either permanently, as at present, or for several minutes to a sin bin), it’s hard luck, you have to play with a man down for however long it was. After the game, the video is examined – the FA decide the ref was wrong and rescind any suspension that the player should have received and maybe give the ref some more training.
Another important question is “How do we bring about change?” That one’s not so simple and i’m hange if I know.
Meanwhile, in FFF news, you’re all a bunch of FA administrators
D’oh. hange -> hanged.
Great piece again ‘H. TMS & I had a very interesting chat with some Chelski supporters before our famous win there and discussed the sin bin thing allied with a ‘purple card’ which could also be linked with a direct fine to the player. That would make mercenaries like Adebayour & Na$ri think twice before committing an offence. Either way, really like your thinking and agree with every word.
BTW, I’ve never ‘reffed’ a game and nothing could make me do it either ๐
Evening all. I see that is a new post but as I am still back-drinking from the last post too bad
โฆI hope that you have all been fairly pleasant to each other on this Fairly ~Fine ~ Friday (0;
Catalan @ 255 / 256 says: โIf Poldi plays left wing then he wonโt have to be substitute. He can interchange with RVP during the game as [Robin] is now doing with Theoโ.
And Pep to take over from Le Boss! YES..
You clearly have been reading my past posts on this subject: Le Boss is looking for a fluid front three. With the wide players capable of cutting inside or going to the by-line and cutting the ball back..In all his time at Arsenal he has never sought a traditional CFโฆthat is too static for the game heโs striving forโฆand traditional wingers lobbing in crosses into the box is just not the Wenger way โ besides only RvP of the forwards can head the ball worth a fuck!
I am excited at the thought of Poldi in the team in a front three of Poldi/RvP/Theo with them all interchangeable! Can you imagine the chaos that they will cause opposition defenders?
Finally I am looking no further than Pep to take over from Arsene Wenger! Feck Snir and his biased-assed opinions (0;
Without meaning to be patronising, that ‘Holic, is a very well constructed argument.
I say that because I really don’t know which side of the fence I come down on on this issue.
I was in the “yes, but if we know every single decision is correct, it takes all the discussion and banter between fans out of the equation” camp.
The trouble is that there are now so many match changing decisions being made incorrectly, that that in itsself is spoiling the game – and the fun.
For example: RvP was denied, for offside, a perfectly good, brilliantly skillful chipped goal, away from home, vs Man Citeh. In the same game, Richards jumped to stop a shot with his hands five yards from goal. Thus a 2 – 1 win for us turned into a 0 – 1 defeat against the team top of the table at the time, if memory serves.
The problem with technology in a game that flows as quickly as football, is how quickly can the technology respond, and which decisions is it allowed to take over?
If those issues can be resolved by more clever folk than I, then it is time for it to be introduced.
The sin bin idea I do like.
The sean Derry / QPR instance is even more unfair than you suggest.
Not only was Derry sent off, the penalty was given and QPR did indeed go a goal down and lose the game, but Derry had to miss the NEXT game as well.
So he effectively served a 2 game ban as the result of Young cheating. A situation that was not even part-rectified on appeal.
And that, follows Oxon Gooner’s point, that decisions by all parties have to become more consistent.
Simplifying the rules would also help in the short term while the interminable testing of the technological candidates continues.
For example, wrong offside decisions would be drastically reduced overnight by returning to the old rule of “if you are on the pitch you are interfering with play – and you are either offside or not” – and goodnight to all the cobblers of whether it is the second, third or whatever phase of play.
Right, I’m off for a lie down!
Sinbinning is common in Australia – the FA should
get off their lazy asses and study the way rugby
league is controlled. The trick is to get an
independent panel to decide the punishments and give
harsher bans for reckless/dangerous play and persistent
sinners.
Sin bins are not the answer IMO. The game
is an oil tanker in the Thames…it ain’t turning
around quickly and sinbinning could be manipulated
by referees to a farciful level and it will be too hard
to review every incorrect sinbinning. Technology to be used to
review foul play and simulation earning penalties and wrongful
dismissal. Offsides and handballs reviewed during the game.
Referees must be worried about getting decisions wrong and have
technology used to help them.
it is that simple!
I think in cases if violent play then the citing system in rugby has already been proved to work perfectly. And rugby referees are respected a hell of a lot more.
What, actually, can be the argument against that?
Offside etc I’d leave alone.
Holic good post, agree with all of your points, it beggars belief that Football is the last major sport to utilize technology to improve officiating.
Also I would love to see the introduction of sin bins.
Holic: A thought provoking piece and I agree that both technology and the use of a Sin Bins would improve the game from a justice point of view. I disagree with your proposition of the kind of offenses that would warrant sinbinning though. Bookings for relatively minor offenses like dissent, time-wasting, handbags etc should be sin bin offenses. These kind of offenses are not on the same order as bad tackles, simulation or punching someone in the face for example….
But the above discussion can not be complete without at least considering the impact possible corruption is having on the decisions we see week in, week out. The point is that we are seeing far too many strange decisions to believe that these are all down to human error..in this regard technology would come into its own. For example the Balotelli / Song incident with the ref saying that he saw the offense yet decided not to take action. I review panel could look at the incident with the ref concerned and then amend that oversight – if the ref don’t have a reason for not taking action then he should be demoted for a while. Serial offenders would lose their ref licenses…
Yes Terry, the review process must move from the premise that the referee is always right, That is the point. If he has video assistance and still drops the sort of howlers we saw last weekend then I will be at the front of the queue with my noose at the ready.
‘Holic – When I was in law school, I wrote a paper on this very issue.
I would be very interested to get your thoughts on it, and your recommendation regarding how to get it in front of the proper people (in addition to yourself, of course).
BMBD.
No to video from me. It has ruined cricket, even changed the way the game is played, and it has done rugby league no favours either, as everyone stands around for two minutes waiting to see if a try is legal or not.
In cricket’s case all it has done is make things worse really.
The sooner people get used to the idea that sport is played and reffed by human beings, and there is no such thing as perfection, we’ll all be much happier.
I don’t want video replays during games anyway. If there are things to be sorted out later disciplinary-wise, that’s fine but I never want to see a bloke with a replay deciding games. It may, in theory, take only seconds but it hasn’t worked out that way in cricket or rugby. They watch everything from several angles, freeze frame, frame shuttle etc. That’s no good for football imo.
Apart from that I agree with every word you said ๐
Apart from the sin bin thing, don’t like that idea.
I think I read somewhere that a penalty will no longer carry the triple punishment of penalty, red card and suspension from next season. It will be a penalty and a yellow card, unless it is a violent foul
‘Holic – article has been dispatched.
BMBD.
‘R,
The sooner people get used to the idea that sport is played and reffed by human beings, and there is no such thing as perfection, weโll all be much happier.
Used to work when a day at the game cost a few bob, or a few quid, and the rewards were proportional.
Nowadays a day out at a major sporting event is two or three days wages, more if you are really up Redknapp Creek without a paddle. We deserve a better quality of decision making and the other sports have made strides.
Cricket is awesome. The appeal process is part of the event. We need serious discussion about discerning between FACT and perception, but football desperately needs technology.
Really ๐
When Platini and Blatter begins to lose their iron ghrip on the beautiful game, a small path will begin to widen for retrospective video reviews to enter the fray.
Well written Maestro.
First!
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OK! SECOND!
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No! Third!
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Alright! FORTH!
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28th you say? Awwww. Why do I always enter the drinks at a position close to Spurs?
Sinbinning seems like a good idea but not sure if I agree with implementing something like that before getting some consistency in officiating and video technology in the game.
I don’t care at all about the loss of controversy and talking points due to refs getting calls correct. What’s so fun about giving yourself an aneurysm arguing over these ludicrous bad decisions that make you lose? And not just the fans, how much money is being lost by clubs when they finish in false positions at the end of the season, or even get relegated? Did England and Mexican fans enjoy the controversy at the World Cup in 2010? In my opinion, it’s only fun when you’re the one benefiting. I don’t think video technology will make the game sterile, and even if it does I would still welcome it knowing that we know FOR SURE that the winners in the record books have earned their stripes.
I’ve long held the opinion that FIFA and UEFA are reluctant to introduce video technology because they know that with the current setup big teams are more likely to benefit than small teams. Logistical problems would be worked out in a jiffy if they wanted to implement it. Instead they hem and haw and make up ridiculous excuses…
two tablets twice a day for two months
possible side effects
gastro intestinal disturbance it’s called
i could scoot through the eye of a needle
.
perhaps not the lyrics Merle Kilgore envisioned
but who am i if not a maverick
oh
and howdy ‘holic
Hahaha! I’m hoping to see a mutiny like the one he led against Domenech in the World Cup…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17688465
Anyone up for a cheeky pint of Old Speckled Hen as we prepare ourselves for the upcoming St. Totteringham’s Day?
cans of r
have an Owd Rodger
or 3
–
it’ll have you on your ear
should the need for an ear arise
Toby @ 28, ๐
CoR @ 32, I think we should wait to consume any ‘cheeky’ drinks untl 9:45 after we’ve hopefully beaten Wigan convincingly and comfortably and gone 8 points clear. The even more wary among us might say wait until April the 21st to crack open any drinks… 8)
Isn’t insulting the referees after they make the inevitable bad decisions a large part of the fun of it? ๐
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpGqsxoYfOM&feature=plcp&context=C48457c5VDvjVQa1PpcFMG_qNbZcU8vVfj8Kx3vDQVlWIZMlU7iCM=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBmbbMbutMY&feature=plcp&context=C4da707fVDvjVQa1PpcFMG_qNbZcU8vQkB-JXVKkL1U2IMbsWWvV8=
Enjoy.
Great article ‘holic. Well thought out and persuasively argued.
What makes me really angry is the reluctance to punish players in retrospect for serious foul play – the kind that could be career threatening. What about introducing a similar system to that used in rugby union where a club can cite another clubs player for such an incident and get it looked at by the authorities and if deemed appropriate punished retrospectively?
Lovely Snir. I was there for all those games for the 90/91 season, and, that 4-0 against Liverpool. Memories…
Now for a modern classic that may well go down as one of the greatest games in modern Arsenal’s history. The match commentary is almost as good as the action: http://youtu.be/Rcj_00LQzBI
Great write up holic.
Still haven’t made my mind about sin bins but the retrospective punishment must be better used.
Retrospective Video for violent play and diving – yes
Goal line technology. – yes
Citing system – yes
Sin binning – potentially a good idea but open to abuse by diving players! Maybe Just for professional fouls denying goal scoring opp?
Video during game? – not for me.
* That should be 88/89 season, as well as, that amazing “nearly invincible” 90/91 season too (0;
Noel makes a good point. When thinking about the authority of a referee and the respect shown to him or her by the players I have to ask why are players allowed to surround the ref, arguing and berating him/her. Nothing undermines authority and confidence quicker and more effectively than than that. Why don’t the refs simply book the players involved in that scenario? I think I am correct that current rules would allow that.
The only player allowed to speak to the ref at all should be the captain and then only to ask a question seeking clarification, not to conduct an argument.
Many state that refs are not influenced or intimidated by player pressure, they certainly won’t admit it but I bet they are and such pressure could easily lead to hesitation or taking the easy route when a difficult and marginal decision has to made. Another thing, why do some refs insist on chatting and joking with players as though they are best mates? They are not, the relationship between refs and players is purely professional and refs can’t afford to be mates with players because being on such pally terms is almost certain to influence decisions in favour of the ref’s mate. Ever wondered why Rooney makes such a thing about being matey with the ref?
I’ll shut up now because I’m beginning to ride a hobby horse.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1337584/Martin-Keown-The-day-I-thought-I-dying.html
Have a look at what Adams says was the hardest for him to mark.
Kos, BFG, and TV’s ability to read and recover shouldn’t be underestimated.
Smashing article Snir. Two Arsenal legends,
Completely agree that the debate has to start somewhere ‘holic
I am with Dr C @40
Video during the game, to review offside goals, to disallow goals because of a foul which the ref missed is fine in theory. But in practice it would be far more difficult to implement these.
What if it’s a marginal offside call? What if the foul is debatable? If a player scores a goal, then the team would naturally start celebrating. If you overturn it, even if only 30 seconds later, it would take the sheen off the game IMO
Retrospective punishment for violent fouls(even if the ref has seen it and judged it incorrectly), for diving/cheating(missed by refs) etc are a must. Makes sense
Goal line technology is also a go from me. The opposing argument that, “did the ball cross the line or not” debate is part of football core/essence is complete bollocks. If the technology is there, use it.
A great article holic and some very interesting points made. I must say that I am not a fan of sin bins. You suggest that they could be used for decisions that are not as clear cut or possibly as serious. For me that is just fraught with danger and may be seen as a kop out for the officials.
I generally have a great deal of sympathy with the officials for many of the points you have raised. The fact that the game is ten times faster than it was and that every decision is scrutinised all over the world from a thousand and one different angles just adds to the pressure that they are under. The fact that football seems to be the last sport to embrace technology tells you all you need to know about those in charge of the game.
Another great points concerns the riches and rewards attached to the game. I have said before that until both players and managers have a degree of honesty about them then it becomes a tad hypocritical to start moaning when they fall victim to such behaviour. As mush as I had sympathy with Sean Derry I did find it ironic listening to Mark Hughes moaning about a soft penalty given at Old Trafford. 25 years ago I was sat in a TV audience when one of the guests was Ray Clemence. It was a Monday night after we had just beaten the Spuds 2-1 at their gaff in the 2nd leg of the League Cup Semi Final to set up a replay for the Wednesday night. He was asked about cheating and professional fouls. He was honest enough to say that if Charlie Nicholas was bearing down on goal and it made the difference of him going to Wembley or Charlie then he would have no problem in taking Charlie out. Why? Because the punishment would not have meant more than a sending off and a small ban.
For me there needs to be many changes. A few posts back holic you mention such a massively missed opportunity by the FA. I could not agree more. I also thing that video technology has enhanced cricket. Anything that means the correct decision is reached gets my vote.
Sky have goals reviewed for any offsides within seconds. Why can that not apply to a video official? It would not stop play as the celebrations would no doubt still be on going. Take the Chelski game last week. A video official just informs the ref that he is a yard offside and the game re starts with a free kick. Same as for the Young dive. The video official confirms the offside and the game restarts with a free kick. That should be simple, surely?
I also think that all games should be subject to a review. It would not take long for any contentious moments to be reviewed and subsequently dealt with. Take the pressure off the officials and apply punishments that actually fit the crime. Balotelli for instance. Why even ask the officials? The whole world knows it is a shocker. Ban him for 8 games. Players would soon learn. Diving, or simulation as it seems to have been re named. If there are clear incidents, Ashley Young again springs to mind again. Will he be happy, or anyone else for that matter be so quick to go to ground if they knew it would be reviewed and he would then face a ban? And then the ultimate. For any side that has serial offenders start deducting points. How would Fergie feel if not only was Young branded a cheat but that they now had lost points as a result? It would soon stop.
In my opinion we do not assist officials in anyway near as much as we should. Football is falling behind and is in serious danger of making a mockery of itself.
Morning all,
As you may guess I’m from what some see as the ‘Dark Side’.
Just a couple of points to consider when video technology comes up
a) The vast majority of refs would welcome goal line technology, its a simple statement (was the whole ball over the line) whereas the majority of other decisions are judgement calls (was it a foul? was he pushed or was he backing in?) even diving (or simulation as the FA like to call it) is a judgement call.
b) the length of time it takes to get a decision, how many replays on MOTD have to be shown before there is a concensus, just what’s needed on a cold, wet evening when its the 3rd or 4th decision being reviewed.
As regards any ref having an ulterior motive to favour one team, c’mon. I’ve only been able to be an A/R on a couple of Arsenal reserve matches in my time as a ref and my only thought was how to keep up with the speed merchants! You honestly do look on it as Reds v Stripes not trying to think how to favour one team against another.
Most teams of officials come off games mentally exhausted, you have to concentrate for the whole game, getting over 98% of decisions correct (which is more than players manage – check the stats for passes completed, shots on target etc!).There is an assessor in the stands picking you up on any mistakes and that’s apart form the managers who need to blame someone to deflect it from themselves.
I could go on but will leave you all with one point to ponder. The reason why ref’s don’t come out and explain decisions on camera is, unfortunaltly, the fact that the media don’t want a straight factual answer, they want to have a bit of controversey as it gets viewer/listener numbers up. Why do you think there isn’t a ref explaining decisions during games on Sky Sports or MOTD, but there is a player with an opinion………
I need a drink now, better be a powerade, got to keep hydrated….
Steve, points deduction for teams with serial cheats is an absolutely brilliant idea. Which, of course, is why it will never become a reality as long as Septic Bladder and his cohorts are in charge.
Gooner Ref
Welcome! I think the majority here recognize and sympathise. Don’t you think it would make your job easier and gain you respect if you could look back at something after the game and say “Blimey. Didn’t realise that was what happened. I’d have given a red card”?
Ref. Some great points and a great read. Lars, sadly I think you are right. Until there is a massive overhaul of the whole system then nothing will change. I am a big fan of common sense. I mourn the day it seemed to depart the game and would welcome its return.
Doc C. How about a panel of “experts,” and I use the term loosely, to review anything controversial. It would not take that long. Then start taking action. They should so that for all games. I am sure that this would start to act as a deterrent before too long.
The fact is the game is littered with players seeking to gain an advantage by any means possible. Savage on MOTD admitted as much last week. I heard Andy Townsend say once when describing a penalty decision involving the minimalist of touches, “he was entitled to go down.” It made me vomit. Until that mentality is eradicated then the job of the officials will remain a thankless task.
Steve T. Agree totally
The thing is that this system exists and works already in rugby. So what can they object to?
Buffoons.
Nice half century by the way. Let’s get the run rate up now…
Sorry to backdrink to the last post, @snir 253 and GT 15,
I totally agree with Poldi playing on the left and interchanging with other forwards as GT mentions above as well. I guess I did not make it clear that I was not choosing NB over Poldi, but rather NB as a mere backup for RVP for next season over Chamakh. Fair play to consider we have The Ox and Gerv and possibly Ryo to play on the left, hence Poldi can play on the center when needed as well.
But both RVP and Poldi does not boast injury free careers, and it is also worth considering they are quite similar players in style (albeit two of the greatest examples of such kind). I see a benefit in NB when we are chasing a goal with time running out, our opponents defending deep and we are condemned to passing around their defense, where he can prove decisive with his aerial threat and a knack to be in the right place at the right time.
The Barca game showed this very well, although sadly it also showed his capacity to choke when it matters. I believe the latter can be improved with practice, though, and at least he does not sulk after missing good opportunities like other non-regular strikers might. Demanding Bendtner to play like Poldi and RVP upfront is missing the point IMO, since we should use his abillities to its fullest if and when needed, which means playing him as an out and out striker akin to his
role at Sunderland.
On the other hand, Snirโs point about team spirit is a valid one, and if Wenger deems him as a negative influence of such Iโm convinced we will offload him, in which case AW will have my full backing. AW knows best in any case. Itโs just that I still prefer NB over another signing of a forward, or hoping for Chamakh to recover form. Poor Chamakh needs to go for the good of his own career. Afobe and Campbell might still need more experience.
GT also mentioned how AW does not usually prefer a typical CF as starter, and I am in full agreement with this. But having a fully balanced, title winning squad might mean saving space for one such CF just in case it is needed. Think Kanu back in the day, or perhaps Berbatov for Manu.
Ps. I sure hope Wenger gives Ryo Miyaichi a chance next season. Pace, technique, mental strength, work ethic โ this boy is a real gem! And apologies again for the long backdrink.
Morning all, and welcome Gooner ref.
Take the oft-mentioned point about delaying the game, but most goals can be reviewed once from all angles in the time the celebrations take.
Incidents like the Balotelli challenge last week can be dealt with at the first breakdown in play after the offence has been reviewed.
I make the point about looking once from each angle because if you need to view it more than once then there is sufficient doubt to back the judgement of the officials naked eye.
I am talking about trapping the obvious wrong calls here, not the debatable.
Oh, and if you want to avoid the cursed ‘holic pound then steer clear of my three 16/1 each-way punts for the National.
WEST END ROCKER (Almost Arsenal colours)
ON HIS OWN (Ruby, Ruby, Ruby, Ruby)
CAPPA BLEU (C’mon Everton today)
There, I’ve left you Gooner AP McCoy on the favourite to back. I never touch the favourite in the National.
horses for courses, ‘holic.
*gets coat*
1-0 Everton, Jelavic scores after a cock-up in in the Liverpool defence.
Steve T, in addition to what you said about a panel of experts, these should be people who are not also pundits and not neccessarily even ex-Premiership players.
GT@38 Superb highlights from YouTube. There’s something almost magical about trying to follow a commentary when you can understand about 1 word in 100. I wonder if it’s as good if you speak the language? Is there an Arabic speaker in the house?
Gooner Ref.
Football should learn from Hockey and American football.
There is a booth upstairs with officials who review the play and let the official know when he needs to take action i.e review the goal, send off a player et al.
It wouldn’t even delay the game. The ref can have them on his mic and just approach the offender once the booth has deemed the offence a sending off.
Just a few words here and there Oxon.
More than most, but not enough to speak fluently.
Man City seems to have done the exact opposite of collapsing since we beat them. 2-0 up at Norwich after just 27 minutes. Didn’t see the first goal, but the second one was an absolute scorcher from Aguero in the top corner.
Thanks for comments
Catalan @49 – Every official who has the chance to review a game on video has exactly that sort of reaction to some decisions, indeed the Select Group (as the Premiership refs are known- its an FA title not self chosen!) have regular get togethers where they all review contentious decisions, and believe me they don’t hold back from criticising where their collegues are wrong!
‘holic @54 &Snir @59 – This may be the ideal solution, there are two things that will delay it
1) the number of officials needed, trust me there’s not a bottomless pit of officials and every extra official for the premiership means another game further down the pryamid loses their ref.
2) Sky and the media want controvesy, its their oxygen! (go backdrinking and see the comments about ‘Talk S&*(^’ radio
oh, and thanks for your tips ‘Holic, but as I have a 12yo daughter (don’t ask who she supports, bloody wife’s fault!) my money’s going on Always Right….
Gooner Ref – you don’t necessarily need refs in the booth but people who know the rules or ex refs like Poll, Riley et al.
They just buzz the ref that Balotelli needs to be sent off and he gets it done.
Hockey has video assistance but doesn’t change judgement calls like penalties, but only whether a goal was legal or not and to reverse a decision it has to be “inclusive evidence.”
Same thing with American football. Inclusive evidence, and uncalled penalties are not reviewable.
And surely Arsene must have something on ‘Becauseicouldntsee’ ๐
Norwich get one back, Norwich 1-2 ManCity with 40 minutes to go. What little I have seen of the second half has dominated by the home team.
Afternoon all. Fantastic thought provoking post ‘holic. And Steve T @46, apart from sin bins (about which I am still undecided), I canโt disagree with a single word you wrote there.
TS@ 14 โ as I recall we also discussed (sympathetically) the difficulties faced by the likes of Gooner ref and his colleagues, and this paper from the BMJ was mentioned:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535985/
For those who havenโt time to read, itโs a paper written by a Spanish GP, which concludes that it is basically impossible for the human eye to call an offside decision correctly.
Right, back to my boilk. Laters folks.
To pick up on what you said Snowy…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymgMNLPw1yY
Shows it is physically impossible for keepers to save a penalty if they wait till the player kicks the ball.
Have to guess.
Shows how hard it is to save a penalty.
So, in conclusion we will have to hope that there will not be an FA Cup final at all this season…
Spot on, Lars!
Snir@60 – not surprised you speak a small smattering. I have a very poor ear for distinguishing between Middle Eastern languages and, to be honest, it was onbly when I made out the repeated “Alaaaaah”‘s that I was convinced it was Arabic rather than Hebrew.
Lars@68 – well, yes and no. It does increase the chances of that shower from the nasty end of the Seven Sisters Road ™ missing out on European Fottball next year, which would be most amusing. Still, it would give them the opportunity to “concentrate on the Premier League”. Has anyone yet spotted the first appearance of the “We went off too early” excuse? Shades of Keegan after Romania 3-2 England at the 2000 Euros.
onbly -> only
Fottball -> Football.
I’ll learn to type straight one day. Honest.
Hi guys…
I have to ask for your help ’cause this has been doing my head in for ages.
If we score 6 more goals we equal the amount of goals scored by the invincibles.
If we win our games, we’ll have 79 points, which will be, if I’m not mistaken the 5th best points total under AW.
And even better than the 97-98 double.
We also have barely passed the 72 goals mark achieved by the invincibles which has been shattered by various teams since.
This has come at a time when the competition has actually increased and the mid-table/bottom of the league/lesser teams are so improved, they are expected to get something out of every home game they have.
How is it possible that we would get more goals and points when the competition has gotten harder?
More competition should mean, more points lost between the teams, and less points for the champions, not more.
It just amazes me every single time I think about it.
Hi everyone. Holic, another timely piece, very enjoyable. Not a big fan of over regulation. Now I’m in no way suggesting this piece is a kneejerk reaction to recent events. Agree that goal line technology is needed and long overdue. Sinbins and the use of video replay for questionable calls, no. Gooner Ref @47 speaks for me as to why. Problem is, no amount of technology can address the root of the problem which is a rampant culture of cheating. Ideally, each manager shoulder foster an environment that encourages good sportsmanship (even when you’re losing). This Monday, we will be in for a real treat! Two managers who embrace this ideal.
Snir,
1) If we win our games, and end up with 79 points, we will have won 14 of our last 15 games. Not shabby, not shabby at all. I’d love us to manage it, but it’s many miles from nailed on.
2) This has come at a time when the competition has actually increased&ellip; What makes you say this? I’ve certainly seen it written by various pundits, but then I have read a number of other articles by those same pundits about power shifts in North London and assorted bollocks. Having decided to dismiss some of the punditry I tend to dismiss all of it.
Very good article Holic
A lot of drinks talk about Rugby League, which I no longer follow so I cant comment on what they do, but Rugby Union does seem to offer some useful insights such as
– ‘Can I award this goal’ – which says ‘I and my assistants cannot be sure so I want a second opinion’
– the ref is immune from pestering players (physical or verbal) and will move any penalty 10 yards forward, and yellow card any repeated infringements
May I also suggest something from Tennis – where the manager (or possibly the captain) is allowed 3 appeals for video evidence during each half (with any justified appeal not counting towards the total)
Another point is regarding this extra official used during Europa League games which in my opinion has been an almost total missed opportunity, because the official is on the same side of the goal as the assistant rather than the opposite side . Having watched American football now and again, I am impressed by the number of fouls being picked up by having 2 assistants on each side and one behind the ‘goal line’.
Finally, can we make any laying of hands on another player’s body a punishable offence. This, I feel, will clean up all of the pushing and shoving that occurs on free kicks and corners, in the same way that defenders hide their hands behind their bodies to avoid any accusation of handball. (I always think of Chelski and their dirty captain’s ability to score goals through other players fouling defenders off the ball and out of the way)
What makes me say this is the difficulty in winning away.
United is the only team with over 50% wins out of their away games.
Every team expects to get something out of their home games regardless of the opposition.
There aren’t many games, if any, where the outcome is known before the game.
No foregone conclusions on who wins in any PL game.
They might have different philosophies on how to achieve it, but all teams try to win their home games regardless of the opposition. It can be done in a Stoke like manner, a Swansea like, or a hybrid like Everton.
Great conversation starter in your post, ‘Holic. Certainly the present situation is unacceptable. Cheating and dangerous/violent play should be punished severely and much more so than fouling. The idea of a penalty and yellow card for a non-violent last man/denial of clear goal-scoring opportunity and penalty and straight red for a dangerous version of same seems sensible. An alternative for the non-violent version could be a penalty, a red and a sub permitted for the sent off-player, so the offender is out of the game and his team loses a tactical sub.
Violent play anywhere on the field should not only incur reds and suspensions but, as happens in America’s pro sports, hefty player fines, say the equivalent of a month’s wages, so they hurt.
Goal line technology is a no-brainer. I am still undecided about video-review challenges to referees’ decisions during games. They would undoubtedly break up the flow of the game, which is one of football’s defining characteristics, and judgement calls by human referees are ultimately that, human judgements with all their frailty. However, post-game video review of possible cheating/violent incidents, at the request of either side, and involving the referee, seem no-brainers. No one is going to blame a referee for holding up their hand after the game and saying I got that wrong or I missed that. The experience of ref review might also help self-train refs to make better decisions in the first place.
I am not sure about sin bins for football. They work in sports like ice hockey where four against five gives the five a much greater goal-scoring advantage than a ten gets against an eleven on a football pitch. They would also difficult to administer in a sport where it is relatively easy to time waste. Just think how long a Krul goal kick could take during a sinbin period.
To many of Steve T’s points in his excellent post @46, what is needed more than anything is a willingness on the part of administrators to stop burying their heads in the sand, acknowledge there is a problem to be dealt with, review all games after the event and start imposing punishments that fit the crime. Players, often at the encouragement of their managers, will do what they think they can get away with. If it becomes clear they can’t get away with cheating and violence, then it will mostly stop.
Great post ‘holic and too many excellent drinks to menion them all.
This is a subject that just won’t go away, whatever side of the fence you may be on, one thing is clear, those that are paid, handsomely may I add, need to get their collective fingers out and finally do something for the good of the game.
Referee’s are facing impossible tasks to get all the decisions right and anyone with half a brain will agree that they’re not expected to, but why not give the poor buggers a helping hand. I’m of the opinion that this would not undermine, but assist them in their task.
So come on the FA, it’s time for some well laid plans to be put into practise to help the game. It’s the least your lazy well laid arses should be doing.
Hey Lars.
Strange, but once again I have the choice of all three 3 o clock kick offs from the PL today.
Once again the Dutch seem to not give a fuck about the rules.
Sorry to come over all pedantic, Snir, but is it more difficult to win away than it used to be? In previous seasons, was it common for several teams to win more than half of their away matches?
I have no idea what the figures are or what they have been over the years. If results truly give a good measure of teams’ abilities (and I’ve never seen anyone justify believing otherwise) then presumably increasing competition suggesting a closer clustering of results. I’ve no real idea how one should measure that – something makes me expect a ‘root mean square’ to come into it somewhere. Maybe looking at the proportion of away wins isn’t the best measure?
On the other hand, I’m not really bothered about whether the league is more or less competitive. I have no idea how to measure it, and nothing appears to depend upon it.
I suspect that the leading teams aren’t quite as good as they used to be – results for leading English teams in the Championship League would seem to support that view. Assuming that the standard of the remaining teams in the Premier League has remained constant, that ought to mean that competition has increased. Is there any reason to believe that the standard of the remaining teams has remained constant? has it improved? Has it got worse? I have no idea.
Oxon- wouldn’t that necessarily mean then that the better bigger teams should score and win more?
Yet we only scored 68 in 98, 79 in 02, 72 in 04.
Weaker bigger teams should score less against the lesser teams if they remained constant, yet that’s not the case.
I don’t really care about competition either but I just find it impossible to believe that the invincibles scored only 73.
This could be down to the change in world football to a more attacking style.
I’m just perplexed by it.
Also, weaker bigger teams, would get less points, not more…
Snir – OK, sorry I get hung up on the competitiveness aspect – not the first time I’ve got the wrong end of the stick, probably won’t be the last either ๐
If I can read the new bloody awful format BBC league table, we have scored 66 goals so far this season at 2.2 per match and have 5 matches left. That suggests we might anticipate ending the season with 77 goals for. That is, indeed, 4 more than the Invincibles managed.
I agree that is very surprising since it’s generally accepted that we are much more reliant on a single goalscorer than we used to be, and that the 2003-04 team was awash with goal-scoring midfielders who could be relied upon to bag 10+ a season. It all seems to suggest that at least one of the following is true:
RvP has had a _really_ remarkable season this year
We aren’t as wholly reliant on Robin as people (including us?) think.
The Invincible midfield didn’t score as many as we have come to believe.
(Oxon’s Law of paradoxes. If something seems contrary to your assumptions, and it’s true, then your assumptions are probably wrong.)
Snir, Inbox, please.
H2H: broadcasters are still allowed to air all the games via cable, it is via satellite they are only allowed one game.
The argument against introducing technology because it would slow and fragment the game doesn’t hold water for me because the game is already slowed and fragmented by the players who surround the ref in order to shout at him, argue with him and tell him he is a short sighted wanker. Add this waste of time to that caused by players rolling on the ground feigning injury and the game is already slowed and fragmented because of the gamesmanship and bad attitude of many players. The proper use of good technology would improve the flow of the game because of the elimination of argument.
Pity about Norwich today, they got stuffed but actually didn’t play that badly for a good part of the match. Roll on Monday so we can get another 3 points.
Tragic news coming in from Italy… a 25 year old player collapsed and died during a match…
Abb- replied.
A very timely and insightful piece.
How about an appeal process on the field by each team, similar to cricket and tennis? Say each team can have 3-5 appeals per decision in regards to disallowed goal, missed offside when the goal was scored, penalty given against and penalty not given, red card or yellow card given (but NEVER about card NOT given to other team). The problem with implementing this would primarily be the uninterrupted flow of the game for some of this decision types, say a penalty decision was missed but the game carried on and then something else happened? For some decisions (penalty given against, missed offside leading to goal, red or yellow cards received) the flow would not be interrupted.
One way of addressing that would be to allow each team a person on the bench whose job is to simply follow the match on TV and he/she can immediately raise a signal to the fourth official about an appeal. This person would get it wrong some times but over time they would learn to become more efficient and accurate because it is only in the benefit of his /her employer to be so. An accumulated large number of incorrect appeals could result in fine in terms of less allowed appeals for the next n matches etc.
I meant 3-5 appeals per match in the previous post and NOT 3-5 appeals per decision. ๐
Snir and Oxon Gooner: to join in uninvited in your interesting debate, I think both sides of the argument are true. :–)
What i mean is, the overall competitiveness of the PL has increased whereas the technical quality (which is always about the best playing and best players) has decreased. IMHO, obviously.
The increase in competitiveness has to do with better tactical discipline, faster and more physical game, and big teams not having that aura of invincibility about them.
But in terms of technical quality of the game PL has become poor. That is why someone like David Silva — who was good but never the world beater in La Liga — looked so unplayable at the beginning. That is why Cesc, brilliant player he is, used to look so majestic compared to the rest but he looks just another good player in Barca. That is why Bale gets so much hype.
I don’t think the increased competitiveness can be measured statistically in terms of goals and results so easily. One way of measuring could be gauging the ‘intensity’ of a match in the last ten minutes. That could be in terms of an equation comprising the pace of the game in ten minutes w.r.t the overall pace of the game, the possession percentage distribution in last ten minutes, goals attempted by both sides in last ten minutes etc. Basically, in many more matches many lower placed teams don’t given up the ghost and typically still has a lot to play for towards the end of the match compared to what used to be the case.
Oxon – Turns out you’re right.
We didn’t score a lot from the midfield.
Our scorers were:
Henry 30 (39)
Pires 14 (19)
Ljugberg 4 (10)
Bergkamp 4 (5)
Gilberto 4
Wiltord 3 (4)
Vieira 3
Edu 2 (7)
Kanu 1 (3)
Toure 1 (3)
Campbell 1
Own goals 4
In 2002 it was:
Henry 24 (32)
Ljungberg 12 (17)
Wiltord 10 (17)
Bergkamp 9 (14)
Pires 9 (13)
Kanu 3 (6)
Vieira 2 (3)
Campbell 2 (3)
Cole 2
Lauren 2
Jeffers 2
Edu 1 (3)
V. Bronckhorst 1
In 2012 it is:
RvP 27 (34)
Walcott 8 (11)
Arteta 6
Vermealen 5
Gervinho 4
Yossi 2 (4)
Ox 2 (4)
Ramsey 2 (3)
Henry 2 (3)
Koscielny 1 (2)
Rosicky 1 (2)
Santos 1 (2)
Arshavin 1
Sagna 1
Song 1
Gibbs 1 (2)
Chamakh 1
Any news on Bevin?
Dr. Faustus,
If the lower teams have something to play for in the last ten minutes, then there would either be less goals (as it could be 0-0 or 1-0, 1-1, 2-1 et al) or more goals.
But points would be more evenly accumulated.
When people say competitiveness they mean that teams lose points anywhere, not that it was a hard fought win (although it is a competitive match that way, but that is the general view, that competitiveness = loss of points by the big teams).
If big teams are losing points anywhere, then how could it be that those teams which are considered weaker, playing in a league where as you say, the intensity is sky high, and the opposition has remained constant (or actually increased like Swansea is better than most promoted clubs over the history), that teams are scoring more and winning more.
It just doesn’t make sense.
Bevin?
It’s a done deal. Like Vertonghen, although cannot confirm the source.
(Also like Vertonghen).
Snir. I think one point to consider is that there have probably been more freak results than in others. This has probably been one of the most unpredictable seasons for results that I can remember.
Ned, I agree. The problem would seem to be that the administrators of the game are just too weak.
If you want a laugh click on the link below. I am sure you will have all seen the clip before, but with different words. Made me smile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOxINqEJIdQ&feature=share
Interesting figures Snir.
The things that leap out at me are:
In both the previous seasons we scored well over 100 goals in all competitions (115 and 102 respectively). 81 so far this season and there’s no realistic prospect of getting close to that number this season.
No own goals in 2001-02 or 2011-12
18 different scorers this season compared with 13 in 2001-02 and 12 (including og) in 2003-04
It looks as though the Arsenal of 2011/12 isn’t as high-scoring as 2001/02 or 2003/04, and we aren’t completely reliant upon RvP. Who would have guessed either of those?
SG, I think the key to this paradox you alluded would be the number of games won by the big teams in the last ten odd minutes. I am too lazy to find this out, but I suspect that you will see a significantly more number of matches nowadays are settled in that last 10-15 minutes when the chasing pack tires out, loses mental discipline and that extra bit of quality of the big teams pay dividend. Also, the competitiveness can create more goals because top level teams are rarely satisfied with a 2-0 scoreline going into second half knowing that things can quickly change.
There is something to the psychological perception, so prevalent, that the intensity of games have become more frantic.
Contrary to popular rumour, Bevin has not yet signed as personal terms have not yet been agreed. Unaccountably AFC are not coming through with the…
Oh blast it, I’m getting too old to think of a set of ludicrous demands.
Boom.
I’ve heard that Bevin wants a bowl of M&M’s before each game, with all the brown ones removed. But this is just a a rumor, even if it is a confirmed rumor.
Good shot Toby. I understand that SG&R misjudged how long they had to formulate their client’s demands.
Bevin wants a bevy of beauties, with the blonde ones removed.
(Inexplicably, Bevin does not like blondes).
Oxon – we did play more games those years, in Europe and domestic cups, so we should score a bit less this season.
Steve – Ok, I agree about this season’s craziness, but a return of 73 goals for a dominant team like the invincbles has been surpassed many times.
Faustus – I am not about to check all that ๐
But let’s say that does happen that way and the big teams do prevail in the last 15 minutes of the game.
How does that add up to the fact that no team bar United have won more than 50% of their away games.
That specifically means that no team is a “guaranteed winner” which means the league is competitive.
I’m pretty sure that given a couple of hours thought, I could make out a case that the more own goals are scored the less competitive the league is. By that (daft) criterion, we would learn that 2011-12 was more competitive than 2003-04, supporting Snir’s original statement. We’d also see that 2011-12 was as competitive as 2001-02 which, I think, runs contrary to it.
Back to my original contention – we need to try to put together a measure of competitiveness and then apply it and see what we see.
If we can agree such a measure, then I volunteer to work out the figures. If people don’t want to discuss the measure here, I’m happy to take this to email – ‘Holic – feel free to pass on my address as entered on the form to Snir and/or Dr F and anyone else who posts here regularly.
I’m off now for a couple of hours to help my wife Church sit. Some enthusiast is trying to play right through the new Methodist hymn book to raise money for the local Church restoration appeal. URL for contributions available if anyone wants it, and once I’ve got herself to remind me what it is.
Laters, all
Oxon – I also didn’t include players who only scored in cups like Parlour…
Oxon – My parameter for competitiveness would be the lack of “guaranteed winner” in any match.
The fact that “anybody can beat anybody, anywhere.”
snir, inbox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsF0eOBu_po&feature=youtu.be
Enjoy.
I know I did.
In other news, Nurse Abb assertively puts Snir back in his box…..
It’s easy to prove the league is very competitive nowadays, just have a gander at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF_uOgyBK1c
if you haven’t seen it already.
Good evening holics. Been busy back-drinking. Too many great stuff to respond to (I will leave that to young Hurricane when he blows through)..But I do however have to say these three things:
1). Gooner Ref: Wonderfully refreshing and authoritative remarks. Such a change from the usual biased positions of most football fans. But the key point is that until the ambiguities are taken out of the game – like the current stupid off-side rules – contentious decisions will continue to dog us..
2). Related to this is the question of the use of technology to enhance decisions. Its clearly not a Black & White issue. If the opinion of those on this site is a microcosm of the wider public – which of course reflect the views of the officials at FIFA, UEFA, & the FA then we can see just why its taking so long to make a proper decision on whether to introduce technology or not
3). Intrigued by the discussion caused by Snir’s original question. Its normally an exercise in futility to attempt a comparison between one era and another (or even one year and another). Statistics don’t help either. There are so many variables: average fitness levels of players; quality of pitches; better, cheaper technical foreign players available to smaller sides; and, even the number of international games have an impact on results. One of the handicaps for top teams like Arsenal is that when international games comes along we lose almost all our players, and they are exposed to different coaching methods, whereas most of the so-called smaller teams don’t. This offers the smaller teams an advantage.
Snir. Points total is explained by almost complete lack of draws.
I guess goals scored reflects also generally worsening defences. Also the new offside laws.
Worsening defenses would make the points total for all teams lower as their team’s defense is weaker so winning less.
There are the same amount of draws, maybe even more.
United had 10(!!!!!!) away draws last season.
But us this year? We win or lose. Hence greater points total
Jeezus. I’m having simultaneous conversations with Snir on two different mediums! Brain reaching overload!
Snir@107 Lack of โguaranteed winnerโ in any match isn’t really an objective measure. I guess you’re saying that we count the number of times a lower-ranked team beating a higher-ranked one – the higher that number at the end of the season, the more competitive we say the league is.
That sounds do-able (with time), are you happy to say “higher-ranked” means finished higher at the end of the season? In that case, please point me to somewhere I can find a final league table and list of results.
If you want something more complicated, it’ll take longer and I’ll need more information.
Oxon… Academic, me thinks!
.,,, as in; you are an academic. Not that the discussion is… ๐
Oxon – just google it, it’s rather easy to find.
And I think that’s rather fair.
But you gotta add draws by higher ranked with lower ranked as they lose points that way as well.
Academic-manqué perhaps. I’m not an academic, and I think I’ve been around enough academics to know that. Maybe I’d like to be one, maybe not but I’m pretty sure I haven’t got quite enough of whatever it takes so I don’t try too hard.
On the other hand, I do prefer to argue based on facts. In this case I’m genuinely not sure what any of us means by “more competitive”. I think most people, probably myself included, would agree that the league is more competitive now than it was, say, 10 years ago. I’d be interested to see if we can come up with an objective definition that makes some kind of sense and see whether or not that definition supports the original feeling.
I also know that I’m better at having ideas than I am at following them through. I kind of hope that by committing to doing something publicly I will actually get around to doing it.
Catalan: Snir has persuaded me to never open a Twitter account – I can hardly keep up with him on here (0;
So, Snir, we’re saying 3 points for a win by a lower-ranking team and 1 point for a draw.
Are you happy to go by final league position?
@GT38 Thank you, brotha. That was a wonderful 7 minutes of my life just now…
PiK @ 124: Epic piece of drama wasn’t it?
Oxon- I don’t really get what’s the difference then if the discussion was triggered by the points tally and the goals scored.
Or do you mean just games between small and big teams, and disregarding the big – big and small – small matches?
Snir, I’m trying to agree an objective measure for competitiveness.
I proposed (@117) that we count the number of wins by teams over opponents who finished higher in the table. You (@120) wanted to count draws too, so I suggested (@123) that we go with 3 points for a win, and 1 for a draw.
Now I’m confused. @126 you mention “big” and “small” teams. Definition please?
You also mention goals scored. How do you want to account for them?
Oxon – That’s sorta what I meant.
I just meant that there’s no point in recording the result between Wigan vs. QPR as it won’t do us any good and would just take more time. We wanna know the difficulty of obtaining points for the big teams (which in turn, insinuates a more competitive league).
What do you mean how to account for goals?
“thereโs no point in recording the result between Wigan vs. QPR”
I think I disagree absolutely. If we want to find out about the competitiveness of a league, surely we have to consider all teams. However, if you want to restrict it to matches between “big” teams and “small” teams that’s fine by me, provided you can formulate a definition.
You mentioned goals @126. I thought you wanted to take them into account in the competitiveness measure. Seems like that was another passing stick the I got hold of the wrong end of.
(PS I wish we weren’t discussing competitiveness, I’m having _real_ difficulty spelling it and practice isn’t helping :-()
Scene: After watching Snir and Oxon argue for hours and hours in the corner of the bar. Catalan turns to GoonerTerry:
Catalan: “What are they arguing about?”
GT: “fuck if I know!”
Catalan: “Shall we listen in for a bit?”
GT: “I would rather have a six-inch nail driven through my head”
Catalan: ” Sorry. Fresh out of six-inch nails. Will a nine-inch do?”
GT: “yes please. And hurry FFS!”
Oxon – If you want to measure all games, go ahead ๐
You have to measure goals for sure, if you are willing, also try and measure goals in last 15 minutes of a game.
re: the question of whether the league has become more competitive raised by Oxon Gooner, SG and others above: this is a preliminary finding as I have only looked at two seasons, 2000-01 and 2010-11, but there is some statistical evidence that the weaker teams are becoming relatively stronger compared to the top teams, but it is not convincing. I calculated the percentage of the points the teams in the top five got in their games against four groups — the teams that ended up in the bottom five, in 11th-15th, in 6th-10th and against the other top five teams. If the league was leveling up in standard then you would expect the range to narrow over the decade. It has, up to a point, and not in a statistically significant way.
% of Top Five’s points v 2000-01 2010-11
Bottom Five 32.86% 31.53%
11th-15th 26.35% 29.83%
6th-10th 24.93% 23.30%
Top 5 15.86% 15.34%
As it happens the top five in both those seasons got almost the same number of points between them, 353 to 352, and Man Utd won the league both seasons with 80 points.
Bottom 5 sides got a lot better at home. Conceded 58 points at home to the top 5 in 2000-01 but only 45 in 2010-11.
Snir – it’s getting late. I’m off to bed. Happy to carry on with this discussion tomorrow if you like.
I think I’m going to go away and do a measure based on going through all the results at the end of the season and counting each match that was won by the team finishing lower in the table.
It’s just struck me that I don’t like the idea of including matches where a lower-ranked team draws with a higher-ranked one. At the end of the season, every team will either finish higher or lower in the table than the other – pretty bloody obvious. So, we’re going to end up counting every draw. I know it’s an extreme case but I’m not sure that if every match in the season ended in a draw we’d all agree that the league was highly competitive. Oh, hang on, perhaps we would&hellips; it’s definitely getting too late for me to think straight.
‘Night all.
PS Just looked quickly at the three drinks since my last “contribution”. GT@130 you shouldn’t say that on FFF ๐
Then were did the top teams get the remaining 12 points from?
11-15, 6-10, Top 5? (obviously it’s scattered around, but where?)
*Catalan hurriedly drives nails into GT’s skull.*
Catalan: you ok mate?
GT: much better, thanks. Pass me my pint. And the hammer….
Re: GT @130. Mind if share in that quiet little drink with you? Catalan Gunner is always good for a laugh, not to mention your brilliant repartee. ๐
Interesting stuff ‘holic. Looking around at the rest of the world of sport it seems inevitable that those that run the beautiful game will have to give in some time soon, and start to employ technology to aid the ref re some tricky decisions.
Obviously this would represent a culture shift still, in the world of football – so p’raps change – when it comes, will have to come incrementally.
With that in mind it strikes me that goal-line technology – surely the least controversial, and arguably most universally supported technology of this sort – could be employed asap – with nobody (refs, FIFA reps etc), anywhere, having lost much face. Then fans, players, admin men, press, pundits and managers etc could have a season or so of seeing how that goes – and then take things forward from there.
Psed – but on a slightly different note – it’s way, way beyond time that the bumbling numb-nuts at the FA sorted out their muddled thinking re re-examining incidents of serious foul-play/violent-conduct etc, post-match. In the end it’s not really important whether or not the ref has missed the incident all together or not been able to clock in its entirety i.e. Ballotelli on Song.
Surely the key point is that there’s no place for that sort of thing in the game – and ultimately it doesn’t matter how it’s been spotted, what matters is what’s done about it once it has been seen.
The FA’s scandalous excuses for doing nothing about such stuff, even though their counterparts on the continent regularly do (as revealed by Ollie the other day), should be challenged by all of us that care about the game – and come on, especially the sports press (an opp for them to cover themselves in glory, and not other stuff – for a change?!?), each and every time the FA attempt to employ said excuses. And the FA should continue to be challenged on this front until they respond to instances, like ballotelli’s studs up kick at Song, differently.
8ball. …. You’re aware of the initiation for this conversation? ๐
The FA lie about retrospective action not being taken when the ref has seen the incident is easily exposed by the action taken against Eduardo. After the ref had awarded a penalty…
GT: Arrrggghhh!
Catalan: Christ what’s the matter GT, Too hard?
GT: No. I can still hear them – Put another one in my left temple please!
oops – clock “it” in its entirety –
The above is a correction and not a request – danke!!!
Catalan, Not really, but if I have time I’ll do some quick back drinking. Now however, I’m headed out to the flicks. Be good!
8 ball
You’re welcome to join us on your return. We’ll be the two hedgehogs in the corner….
Hey all, Why didn’t didn’t Mancini bench Balotelli after his attack on Song. He cleary was very annoyed with his unpredictable star. Discipline should start at home, so to speak.
Done a bit o’ back-drinking and see that the Bevin boy’s situation is yet to be firmed up. And there’s virtually nothing on Vertonghen from Snir – following his startling proclamation re that situation on Fridee night. Are his crystal balls no longer producing the goods!?
AL: More likely his balls have crystallized after all that arguing (0;
Don’t you dare AL ๐
http://www.footie-online.co.uk/2012/04/arsenal-sign-vertonghen/17146/
Not too sure about the site’s credibility but I am sure of the credibility who pointed me to it.
This obviously adds up to De Boer’s comments early last week.
Abb- what do you mean? Balotelli was suspended for the last two games anyway.
SG, if your @134 was intended for me, the top 5 took more points off the bottom five when the top five were playing at home, 2010-11 vs 2000– 66/45 home/away v 58/58, off the top of my head (I’m not near the data at the moment.)
AL – Snir’s balls shattered when his brain exploded.
Abb – “not a big fan of over regulation”
We already know that – those of us who remember your application to The Quackery!
psed (AL) – any more nails left ? ๐
SG: -5 vs bottom five, +12 vs 11-15, -6 6-10, -2 Top 5
Nbn – that proves my “no guaranteed winner (on paper) in any match” theory.
AL – nothing exploded. Everything’s intact ๐
When were most points against 11-15 accumulated?
I’m thinking now that disparity has to have something with teams playing “with the handbrake off” in the late parts of the season ’cause they secured another PL season and can’t get Europe.
Don’t you think?
Ahhhhhh! – interesting Snir – though the fact that the article is headlined “Arsenal sign Vertoghen?” – is a massive cop-out and suggests that the publication/journo hasn’t got much of a clue re anything definitive re that situation – though i appreciate that’s no fault of yours or, indeed, your balls.
GT you might be right – but you know me – i like to steer clear of all arguements etc on here where i can, and keep me nose clean
And Trev – that’s a saucy question to ask a lady, late on a Saturdee night. But as i’m not one of them – i’ve got to tell yer, i’m a “No More Nails man” – is that any good to yer?
@152 Glad to hear all is present and correct – Snir!
AL – I know. That’s why I’m not too sure about the site.
The guy that pointed me to it tho, is rather credible so I posted it in the bar.
Plus, it doesn’t really matter, I mean we all saw De Boer’s comments, two days after JV was waxing lyricals about Arsenal, so it’s another bad kept secret, just like Gervinho.
@ Trev: You can have mine! Stapling my ears together and Super-gluing around the hedges have made the nails redundant…but I want to keep a couple just in case NED revs him up again (0;
Fair enough Snir – and i have to admit, in a number of ways the Arse/Vertoghen thing makes quite a lot of sense and that. And it does seem to be a story that’s sticking around, and no-one – on any side of the thing seems to have come out and denied any of it to my (admittedly limited) knowledge…
But IF (a big if) – IF i’ve learnt anything re transfers, the Arse and getting my hopes up – Snir – it’s that you should never count your chickens until the VertogHen’s have laid dem golden eggs…
i’ll get me cards!
For sure AL, but Poldi and JV different as they want us and only us.
Oops – pardon – VertogHens
Great
I think we need to change the parameter from goals to goal difference.
We need to check the difference, not the goals scored.
VertogHens.
Love it.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/football/view/246031/Legend-Tony-Adams-ideal-man-to-be-Arsene-Wenger-deputy/
It is the daily star, but it’s a column written by Parlour.
Worth a read.
SG@153: sorry, but i don’t have that granularity of data. i looked at end of season rankings as a proxy for quality of team; i didn’t look at relative standings on game day. certainly the swings in points over the decade are mostly within a couple of results either way, so your end of season point could be right — but equally it could be the result of a couple of bad refereeing decisions.. the only thing I can see from the numbers I do have is that 11-16 got better at taking points at the top 5’s grounds, 60/33 vs 59/46.
if oxan gooner has access to a level of data that could test your supposition, perhaps he could run the analysis.
NBN – I also have to say, that taking two seasons, doesn’t necessarily point to a pattern.
It could be that the league has gotten more or competitive but those specific seasons weren’t and that’s why United got the same amount of points.
We need to record data which is relative and analyze that. We need to analyze data which could be analyzed on an average, and not two separate seasons.
Agree that two seasons’ data is a snapshot not a pattern, but two seasons a decade apart could reasonably, though not certainly, be assumed to indicate a trend. I don’t have Premiership results sitting in a database against which I can run analytical queries, so I am doing this by hand. If I get time, I’ll try to do more seasons than just the two I have.
You’re a good man, Ned ๐
Sterling work NED and Oxon. well provoked Snir! ๐
Not got a clue what you’re all talking about at this stage, but I’m very impressed!
oops – great @ 161 a response to Snit @ 159 (’twas late by then – and i’d already put a saturdee night shift in). And ta Toby @ 163.
Right, more sleep and when i hear the neighbours get up i’ll pop round and pinch some tacs off ’em
sorry sir – that’s “Snir” @ 170 re @ 161 etc – too early/fat fumbs etc
back to bed and safety and that
UREDS!
Ouch, sore head.
Someone must have hit the nail on it.
Zico
Just wait until we extract it….
Preferable to the Snir/Oxon debate? ๐
Heh zico.
Hello all
Ha! It’s back!
Someone posted this on the arses, and I thought of tabs ๐
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Liar-lyrics-Megadeth/0AD8434DB95372DC482568BF002265C4
And I see that my previous drinks had just made it then.
Nice drinking all ๐ Been back-drinking (obviously :)), impressed by Snir and Oxon’s debate, NBN’s contribution and GT & CG’s banter ongoing with the debate/research but I haven’t got the appetite for a back-drinking summary due to my dirty Red Manc older brother ๐
Hi Wind, Hi Ollie, Heck…hello all you gooners. Trev, I saw that (ha, ha). Snir, What I mean is Mancini should punish his ill-behaved starlet proactively, before the FA.
Father in law; “I may be away, would you like a ticket for Barca – Chavski?”
Am I allowed to go, Snir?? ๐
Catalan, Snir would be delighted if you attend. Pretty sure he’d want you to get Alves’s autograph for him. And shake Pep’s hand. Yep, that should do it.
Afternoon Nurse. Yes that should get his blood pressure up (0;
Hey GT, Yep! He adores Real Madrid!
Place is working again. I can call off protests
You are allowed to go and support Barรงa for once in your life, surely, Dr C.
This from BBC Live: “Former Manchester United schoolboy and Wales international Robbie Savage at Old Trafford for BBC Radio 5 live:
Well I used to watch a lot of Arsenal youth games: I thin k that I will start to refer to myself as “former Arsenal youth team spectator GoonerTerry” (0;
Apologies to GT and CG and anyone else whose pants were bored off them yesterday by my long discussions with SG. Thanks for allowing us to ramble on for 5 hours before complaining. In my defence I would point out that @105 I offered to conduct proceedings by email and I promise not to get drawn into any further debate here.
I would offer a drink to the victims but I fear it might leak out through the nail holes.
I’m happy to take the risk Oxon ๐
Heh Oxon! I’ll join Zico in living life on the edge…
Abb- don’t push it. I don’t adore Real Madrid. I already told you, I’m not a RM supporter, I’m a Barca hater ๐
CG – No. You’d get infected by cuntery, and we don’t want that do we?
Oxon – I contacted the club statistician Josh James to obtain certain stats (how many dropped points after European nights away from home, on bigger pitch, on less than 50% possession etc.) and unfortunately they said they don’t keep those stats, and that I should try Opta.
Do you know anyone at Opta?
The boy Bevin strips off his tracksuit…
Nail holes or nerd holes, Oxon?
I refer Snir and Ned to mine @187: “…and I promise not to get drawn into any further debate here“
…sprints down the touchline to avoid a bevvy of blondes…
SG, Oxon, perhaps the time has come to outsource the bigger question of whether there is statistical evidence that the Premiership has got more competitive to the likes of Zonal Marking and the Swiss Ramble. If either of those estimable gentlemen are reading this, and would care to weigh in on either a methodology or the answer, it would be much appreciated, not to mention allow us to return to supping at Oxon’s nail holes.
zicoinexile mis-controls the ball as he stares at the blondes……
?
@ 197
Not yet – his agent is making ridiculous demands…..
Our cleint certainly is not
Lobs!
Ha ha…
Oxon: You are a Gentleman and a scholar Sir! I look forward to reading the final Snir Oxon (& NED) Report. But someone should have warned you that to engage Snir in a discussion about something that he’s passionate about is like having your tongue nailed to the table…hmmm, why didn’t I think of that yesterday..(0;
Thanks GT, let me know when the nail holes heal up and I’ll get you (and zico and CG) that drink.
Well in GT,is that for real @ 186? Snir (sighing).
Well in GT ๐
Hey abb ๐
Bevin’s not a patch on me as far as I’m concerned = fact ;D
Snir
Don’t worry ; I’ve built up a natural immunity! ๐
Nurse ABB @ 204: Yes Savage must have played for a hundred clubs since United turfed him out as not being good enough yet he keeps harping on about being a school-boy trainee in the great united golden youth team of Becks, the Nevilles, Giggs, Scholes & Butt..
Hi Wind. Just dusting off my clever cleaver. Have a feeling I’ll need it later on.
Me? Passionate about sports?
Nah.
It’s just 22 men running around a field chasing a ball.
I say go Catalan, you’re pretty much indigenous now aren’t you? ๐
On no GT, Our posts crossed. Most interesting to hear. Timing is not my forte. Come to think of it, not sure what is!
Snir: Or in the case of American Football each other (0;
Lovely finish, GT
Ollie – Brace yourself, I volunteered you into a twitter argument about Campbell not doing well at Lorient.
All we need now is for people to reply to it ๐
Now the lot of you are just too funny. Why is that. That includes you Oxon.
Thanks Ollie mate…I find that I am more focused with my ears stapled up – cuts down on being distracted by the crowd shouting “shoot, you wanker!” (0;
…he can’t ignore me forever…can he?
Speaking Of wankers, Nani just got a yellow. No sense of humour, that chap….damm he just scored!
Ollie – Turns out all the twitter chatter about Campbell stems from the fact that he scored against Montpellier today.
Snir @209 –
hopefully only 20 of them are actually running round the field ?
Heh Trev ..
You never know with Woj, eh :)?
Of all the stats pages out there, is there anyone that can tell me how many of a player’s goals have been from the penalty spot?
Maybe Lars, if you gave a few clues – like which player ? ๐
I’ve an awful feeling in my gut that the scum’ll nick this!
Seems so, Snir.
Well with Lorient on a serious losing streak and finding themselves in the relegation zone, I guess they had to try something, like play a striker, even if he’s big-headed.
Looks like he did the business against the top team.
Ollie – According to Young guns, he scored “on his return.”
Return = from injury?
Trev@224: heh, I was, in this case, thinking of Wayne Rooney. He is hot on the heels of RvP in the goals scored column, but Rooney has scored a shitload of his goals from penalties while Robin has only only two penalty goals to his name in the league.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZA-cJ_9P8y4
Not too shabby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSSAoKWPkAg
Not too shabby either.
Poldi from earlier in the season.
Snir, twitter format not great for translating:
http://www.chronofoot.com/fc-lorient/lorient-campbell-de-retour-contre-montpellier_art29842.html
“He was down in the dumps, but he’s reacted, he had a decent game in the reserves last week. It’s in the mentality, the effort that he is lacking. But the talent is there. I maitain what I said at the start of the season.”
Like I said on twitter.
As long as attitude is the problem, I trust AW.
RvP’s attitude was shocking as a youngster.
Just caught a couple of minutes of the BBC R2 commentary on the FA Cup semifinal that seems to be going on at the moment between a couple of London clubs. It was quite nostalgic really
“…and Bale goes off down the wing as only Bale can. Oh, and the Chelsea player catches and tackles him”. Hardly surprising really, it must be hard to run fast while peeling bananas with your feet.
Snir 227; the response to that question is on twitter.
It’s difficult to follow that double conversation!
Bit of a decent match between the cunts..
Anyone watching the Spuds – Cunts match can understand why I think Barca will break records against them. A minimum of 8 goals scored on aggregate.
Watching Lorient highlights.
Campbell missed an absolute sitter from Aliadiรจre’s pass at 0-0
Cunts= Chavs.
But you can make it to be Cunts vs. Cunts.
White Cunts 0 – Blue Cunts 1
Ohhhhh – it wasn’t us he was good against – just Gallas!
Lol Gallas.
Wow Drogba.
SG, Oxon, the Swiss Ramble offers up these two links to aid our deliberations:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/oct/19/the-question-how-competitive-premier-league
http://5addedminutes.com/2011/05/25/measuring-the-premier-leagueโs-competitiveness/
CuntFest
abb @ 208, too right! ๐
Joke Hole scored a decent goal for Lille.
So here’s a half time teaser: Which of these cunts do we want to win? For me there’s merit in the blue cunts winning in that it may finally kill off the LW Cunts. However, the blue cunts may get confidence and go on a bit of a run (like the last 2-seasons)…unless Barca completely tears their hearts out…hmmm difficult..
Blue cunts, me thinks. Then hopefully they have to concentrate on CL and FA final
Blue Cunts 2 ups…LUCKY ha ha
Atkinson doing his best to be even worse than what he was last week.
Wow.
NBN – thanks I’ll have a read.
If I’m Abramovich I would sign RDM for next season, but he’s not a big enough name, so no chance.
Martin Atkinson awards a phantom goal. It was nowhere near over the line. This means that in the past week he has allowed a potentially career-ending tackle pass without action and now this “goal”. Good work, FA wankers!
Spurs are so poor they’re making David Luiz look like an actual CB.
Can’t wait for next week.
White cunts equalized
of course not! 1-2 getting ahead of meself
Tottenham cheating again?
Interesting articles, thanks Ned. I almost wish I hadn’t taken a vow of (relative) silence.
Plus Terry did commit a foul in the box, let’s not overlook that. Must say though, fun to watch.
Bale has had several terrific runs and then provided some perfect crosses. They should be level.
Hey 8ball, didn’t see you. We must get GT some peepers.
Blue cunts wins it!
Bye bye spuds
Actually feeling sorry for Spurs…what’s wrong with me.
Awful defending by Kyle Walker on the third Chelsea goal. About two yards too far down he played Ramires onside.
OMG!!! LaaaaaMPARD!!!!
Nurse ABB you must understand that I’m watching the match through squinting eyes – in between wincing and feeling nauseous…hence the mistake (0;
The grandmaster cunt Lampard scores!
Bet ‘Arry was banking on nicking something this season an’ all.
GT hey!
To pick up on my @43
Finally, chaps, who was the best striker you played against?
ADAMS: I found it difficult when there were people coming from deep. It gave me more problems than, say, dealing with Alan Shearer. Martin was a fantastic one-on-one defender. You’d say, ‘Go and mark Anelka’, and he’d mark him out of the game. But when you’ve got people forcing you to think – like (Peter) Beardsley or (Gianfranco) Zola – it’s tougher. The absolute best was Marco van Basten. He was 6ft 4in, quicker than Ian Wright, was two-footed, he could hold it up like Alan Smith. He had it all.
I have to say, I’ve been thinking about that over the last couple of days.
If Tony himself doesn’t rate his ability in defending players coming in behind, how will he teach our CBs to deal with it?
Surely, with our way of playing, that is our main weakness, because we have improved on our set piece defending (only 12 conceded from set pieces) and we don’t seem to be troubled with the Heskey like strikers.
Funny isn’t it? You agonise and agonise about who you want to win, but when the LWCs get stuffed you find yourself wondering why you ever even thought about it.
Why do you do it to yourself GT?
Not watching the match works very well for me.
Twitch overdrive! Now for the scousers to beat the chats in the final just to keep king kenny there for next year.
Jeebus! what part of that ball went over the line? And how did Blue cunt Terry not get called for taking out two spuds..??
Martin Atkinson has had another shocker. Strange to put a referee with Chav leanings into this game? Plus mancs got their usual soft penalty.
Well, well boys will be boys.
5-1 Nurse ABB loves the cunt Lampard? Please report to the Quackery directly..
Can you believe it!
GT, I do not pine on Frank…but that was one hefty goal. Laughing.
Well that’s it then for another decade for the spuds…Harry will piss off…so will Adebaddie, so will Bale, so will Modric…and then they will be looking forwards to winning the Fair Play League every year (0;
No, no a thousand times no. Don’t you read the papers GT? There’s a shift in footballing power in North London.
I hate Chelsea with all my heart (and you know that I have plenty of hatred in my heart), but I have to say I enjoyed that.
I hate Spurs so (!!!) much more, it was enjoying to see them get battered and humiliated, from a team we humiliated at the bus stop and about to humiliate at the Grove.
Lol at Spurs.
The perfect implosion…. Please continue! Just hilarious. And we started it all with 5-2. The rest is all their own work!
At this rate Snir is gonna need a complete treatment at the Quackery! All that hate….maybe a nice bung of Californian Gold is in order…where’s PiK?
Barca next you Blue Cunts – lets see how good you are at chasing shadows (0;
@ 268 Oxon Gooner
How true.
So sp*rs now free to concentrate on the race for 6th.
Barรงa worry me, GT. Especially their away form.
Cuntski could fluke a qualification to the final.
*enjoyable.
Autocorrect :\
NBN – as for your articles. I’m not sure that method of points per game is the right parameter.
I mean, I know I said we should look at the points, but I meant points total as opposed to previous years.
We’re not helped by the stats, and it seems as if the Premier League has actually reduced competitiveness, but all I know is that I was not surprised to see Swansea beat City, Everton beat Spurs, Stoke drawing with United and City despite being 14th.
I would be utterly shocked if Rayo Vallecano would take points away from Real or Barca, same goes for most of La Liga.
Ollie – So what?
Do you really think they can beat Bayern or Real? C’mon man.
Snir @ 279, couldn’t agree more, I laughed (cackled) a lot during that game ๐
Well in whoever posted that Ray Parlour article link *thumbs up*
Ollie @ 283 – NAH! (fingers crossed – obviously!!!)
Snir, maybe you do need to go to the Quackery! ๐ฎ
Chel$ea can fluke ANY final, the best situation is for them not to be in one at all ๐
Ollie…no worries for Barca. Their movement alone will make Terry and Cahill giddy (Lutz looks like he may miss that game)
Almost* any final ๐ณ
Snir@285: I actually think they can. It’s just one game in the final, luck can play a big part.
But that is quite secondary as long as we make sure we finish third, starting with beating Wigan tomorrow – and as fun it was to see Totnum humiliated today, that pales into insignificance compared to how important it is to get three points for the Arsenal tomorrow.
Instructs Bevin to strip off tracksuit, only to discover that he hasn’t put it back on since his previous warmup. For Dennis’ sake don’t tell Wenger as he appears to prefer intelligent players, otherwise we can kiss goodbye to our lucrative cut of his fee.
Ollie @ 283 Pack your bags dude, you just won yourself a trip to the Quackery (smiling).
So the Chavs have distinguished themselves again:
Chelsea have released a statement about the behaviour of some of their supporters at Wembley, who failed to respect the minute’s silence in memory of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster and Livorno midfielder Piermario Morosini, who collapsed and died after suffering a heart attack during a Serie B game on Saturday.
It reads: “Chelsea Football Club is extremely disappointed that a very small minority of fans embarrassed the club today by not honouring the moment’s silence before kick-off.
“Chelsea FC believes all moments of respect should be honoured and today we pay our full respects to all those that suffered as a result of the Hillsborough disaster 23 years ago.”
Where the hell did we put Bojum’s telephone number?
Am I meant to do something here?
Root Won!!!
NOW?!?
Lars – Chill out mate.
You’re way too stressed about tomorrow.
We’re playing at the Ems which truly is a fortress this season.
We got this.
8 points on Spurs, so we can keep on laughing ๐
And no Chelsea can’t fluke a final, just ask John Terry, or Avram. ๐
Turns & Lobs the keeper again!
Puts laces through the ball
Feeling hot, hot, hot (0;
Well in GT!
Which is already nestling in the back of the net.
Shot GT
Looks up for someone in the box…
He shot, he missed, he must be fukking pissed Oxon Gooner, Oxon Gooner..
Snir@299: I know we have been good at home, but that does not make the game less important. I’m not stressed out about it, I just want to point out that we (or the players anyway) have to remain focused. We are in a good position, but that is all it is right now.
GT you salty old seadog, you had in the net before I had stepped on the pitch! ๐ Well in ๐
Ice and Lemon with that, GT?
I’m really quite enjoying this very weird season.
Wind
Last we heard Snir was in the box. ABB put him there
I’m with you Lars.
Let’s have another drink…on your tab ๐
But of course, Ollie! My tab has been far too under-used lately.
Catalan, shush ๐
GT, if you think Oxon’s pissed, how do you think I feel? I attempted to enter play at 297 bloody hell 8)
It’s a fair cop GT.
Hangs head in shame :blush:
But where is tabs today??? He should be here enjoying the spuddie collapse!
s***s – it seems, are getting what they deserve…just-ice and lemon with that for me please barman!
I’ll get my sentence!?!
Hurricane: Its a known fact that if I want to score then I always will…simple..
Yes please Catalan. And have one yourself…
What’s not to like about this season? Where’s the Maestro with the Wigan preview?
Catalan, Such a tattletale you are! Now I’ve been analyzing a couple of the drinks at the bar. New policy goes into effect pronto. Lars and Ollie (for their own good, mind you) will no longer be permitted to feed off each other’s anxieties prematch.
Lars – I know the game tomorrow shouldn’t be taken lightly, but I’m saying you’re way too stressed about it, because today is a day to enjoy the Spuds’ implosion! ๐
We’ll deal with Wigan tomorrow.
No idea if this is a genuine (i.e. not doctored in any way) picture, but if it is real then it seems it actually was a goal:
https://p.twimg.com/AqjDlIJCAAA8UI8.jpg
Either way it’s difficult to be too disappointed – i reckon!
I haven’t seen the game or the thing at all, but judging by everybody’s absolutely anonymous view that it wasn’t the goal, this picture must have been tweaked, Lars.
Not to mention that the angle on that photo is rather inconclusive.
wasn’t ‘a’ goal, sorry
Lars@320 Doesn’t look to me as though the whole of the ball is over the line. Bloody difficult to tell and I for one wouldn’t be too hard on anyone who got the decision wrong in real time.
Isn’t this a bit close to the original title of this piece?
I’ve just been back-drinking – again – and now have to return to comment ‘299’.
I swear I saw Snir telling Lars to chill out.
In which case Lars, you should already be in The Quackery (ER). FACT!!
Trev – You’ve seen me in the flesh and blood, you know how calm I am ๐
Just wait until the next transfer window, and we’ll see who tells who to chill out ๐
It’s all AW’s fault.
If he would do his business early on and not wait till 23:59 to sign Arteta, then I’d be very calm!
Lars, don’t get too stressed about tomorrow’s game – in fact try to keep your Wig-on.
We’ll have RvP providing the cut and thrust, in front of The Ox and Theo (possibly) executing their speedy scissor manoevres down the flanks.
Ramsey will provide the short back and sides-ways passes in the middle, while Rosicky, Arteta and Song try to part their defence down the centre.
RvP should clipper shot or two over the advancing keeper, fed by Sagna hairing down the right wing.
Hopefully there will be no injuries as Wig-on are not known for their barberous tackles, and that will leave us in good trim to take on The Chavs on Saturday.
If we knock in some early goals tomorrow evening, we may even be able to give a few fringe players a run out in the second half.
That was my version of a preview for Monday night. Now then, something for the week-end ? ๐
Snir –
your face is the only bit of your flesh I have seen – just to make that perfectly clear.
That ‘calm’ of which you speak is what we in Blighty refer to as ‘pissed’. ๐
Snir @326
As calm as a one-armed taxi driver with the crabs Snir ๐
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ancelotti has to be one of the most overrated manager in the world.
Tragically bad performance again from PSG. Ultra-defensive subs.
Just off for a moment Snir to check my YouTwit and Facetube accounts.
I’m getting quite good at the old electronic typewriter ๐
SG, Oxon: burying this below the chevrons for the sake of the others, but using the Guardian article’s methodology of comparing the points gap between 1st and last and 4th and last, the Premiership comes out all over the place:
Season Points Gap
1st-Last 4th-Last
1995-96 53 34
1996-97 41 34
1997-98 45 30
1998-99 49 37
1999-00 67 43
2000-01 54 42
2001-02 59 43
2002-03 64 48
2003-04 57 27
2004-05 63 29
2005-06 76 52
2006-07 61 40
2007-08 76 65
2008-09 58 40
2009-10* 58 42
2010-11 47 35
* restored Portsmouth’s points deduction for going into administration.
In short, doesn’t prove a thing.