When Two Tribes Go To War
Mar 1st, 2013 by 'holic
Jim Furnell; Don Howe, Gordon Ferry, Peter Simpson, Freddie Clarke; George Armstrong, Frank Mclintock, George Eastham, Terry Anderson; Geoff Strong, Joe Baker.
The first Arsenal team I remember watching at White Hart Lane. You don’t want to know what the final score was. Suffice it to say that in October 1964 we were a frustrating team. My overriding memory of the day is my uncle, a dark sheep we rarely refer to, gaining admittance for he, the ‘holicdad and I, with two tickets for the fixture in question and one left over from Tottenham’s game with Burnley a month earlier.
That was the first of a number of occasions when I watched the game from parts of the ground where I was strongly outnumbered, but not alone. It isn’t something you could sensibly do these days, but I remember as recently as 1987, in the second leg of the League Cup semi-final eventually decided by Rocky in the replay, my ticket was in the seats above the Shelf. As we recovered to force the replay I could not sit on my hands, and around that lofty perch there were probably a couple of dozen of us who jumped up to celebrate as Viv Anderson and Niall Quinn scored the crucial goals.
Astonishing though it seems today, the fixture in the sixties and early seventies was not an all-ticket affair, and I remember in particular games around the turn of the decade where Arsenal would have vast swathes of support around three sides of the Lane. Those present on the night we clinched the first of the two titles we have won at the home of the old enemy will tell you there was probably more red than navy in the ground.
All of which counts for diddly squat on Sunday. We can draw on all sorts of historical data to give us confidence ahead of another meeting of the two tribes. Tottenham may have won two of the last three meetings at the former marshlands, but prior to that they had not taken maximum Premiership points off us since 1999. In the Wenger years we have eighteen wins in all North London derby meetings, sixteen have ended all square, and the masters of the shift in the balance of power have won five.
Of course the decade of ascendancy enjoyed by Arsene is the only prolonged period where one side has held sway for so long when both have been in the top flight. Generally speaking form has counted for precious little when the two clubs have clashed. For example when the little club up the road won the first of their two (count them) League titles in 1951 we went there the following season and won 2-1 at the Lane. Similarly after they lifted the second we beat them 2-1 at Highbury just before Christmas 1961. Jingle Bells indeed.
The 3000 or so hardy souls who make the trip on Sunday will experience something altogether different. A rivalry that was always lively has developed into something with a sharper edge that a mismatch of numbers has magnified. A new generation are building their own store of memories of one of sports biggest fixtures. I’ll consider which way this latest meeting will go tomorrow. For now I’ll just comfort myself ahead of a big game with my own memories of lording it over them for so long.
More Memories
For those who have not seen Soccer Without Limits today, they are carrying a piece I reworked about the final match at Highbury. I have loved reading my peers in their Arsenal Month feature and wish Danny and the guys all the best with their venture. Thanks for letting me contribute.
59 Responses to “When Two Tribes Go To War”
Singing i i yippie yippie i
Singing i i yippie yippie i
Singing i i yippie, i i yippie
i i yippie yippie i
If you hate Tottenham Hotspur
CLAP YOUR HANDS!
Clap !!!
The wanky Tottenham Hotspur
Went to Rome to see the Pope…..
And they couldn’t even do that right ‘cos he’d resigned….
There is a first drink!
Singing I I ‘it ‘im in the eye
Singing I I ‘it ‘im in the eye
Singing I I ‘it ‘im
I I ‘it ‘im
I I ‘it ‘im in the eye.
😉
I’m going to visit me mammy instead
tipsy and watching this ..so full of awesome http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko5jBnTn9hU
Back to the oul’ country, neighbour?
Tullamore does a black label I’m told 😉
Too bad no Sagna.
Jenks will have to keep the simian in front of him and close him down before he shoots.
I also would like to see Kos come in a follow him everywhere. He did that job against a certain little Argentinian a few years ago to great result.
Cheers all.
Top 10.
I dont know how we can get anything from this game.. But I know we absolutely must.
Calling on the spirit of the legendary Rocky to help us out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUT8J8YHuno, I could do with this.
after the game we will all be sayimg, what was all the fuss about, we will beat them but beat them well, small club, fact, not tittle for over 50 years , says it all, small club near ARSENAL, love you holic x
Good stuff ‘holic.
*CLAPS*
Last time I was at the shithole, was in the early 80’s and all I can remember was that I spent the whole game trying to avoid getting crushed against the barriers, I was with a few mates, half good guys, half scumbos, we were in the shelf, sweat was dripping off the low roof and it was altogether a most unpleasent experience.
It was a crap stadium back then and nothing much has changed since.
Dizzy! How are you mate? Bearing up I hope? Not going im top at the moment, so not up to speed like. Love you Geezer!
My first memory of White Fart Lane (maybe a decade before yours, ‘holic) was of a stadium choking in cigarette smoke … a Danteesque scene indeed, made even more Satanic by those in devil red crushing the pure white locals 4-1.
Naturally I’m hoping for more of the same on Sunday, but an old-fashioned 0-1 will do just as well.
Incidentally, in Mark Lawrenson’s weekly BBC tipping joust he’s up against Piers Morgan this week, with the latter suggesting a 0-8 scoreline! Lawrenson’s 1-2 seems a tad more realistic, but given his appalling record I’d have been happier if he’d predicted 2-1 frankly.
Oskar
Oskar.
For some reason Lawro has been biggin’ us up all season. According to his pre-dick-tions we’re second in the league.
I prefered it when he was tipping us to finish 5th/6th.
He has to be right eventually – it’s the Lawro Vavrages. 😉
Another musical headline, ‘holic? But a better class of performer at least. Although my fav Costello track would have to be ‘I Don’t Want To Go To Chelsea’ from one of his earliest albums. 😉
Oskar
*I have my cuntfilter set at full so nothing Piss Morgan ever says about anything ever registers
Real Madrid’s former Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho, 50, is to have a street named after him in his native Portugal.
Full story: the Independent
Smugoverratedarrogantcuntbucket Street might sound better in Portugeese. 😉
Eighteen wins so far in the Wenger years, Holic.
Tomorrow’s musical preview title: “Here comes your 19th nervous breakdown” ?
Trev.
19 from Paul Hardcastle.
“Hey Nineteen” by Steely Dan
Heh @ 3 Trev – I caught my 12 year old singing that to one of his Sp*rs supporting mates the other day.
DIZZY!
Arsenal royalty, right there. Thinking of you mate.
I hope you rewarded him Fin.
Certainly no bad language lectures in this case!
Marvellous stuff on SWOL, Holic.
I remember standing in the Park Lane End in 1968 when we lost 1-0. The two sets of fans were separated by a row of terrified police. Gilzean scored the only goal but Jennings kept them in it. On arriving home my mother was panic-stricken. An Arsenal fan had been dispossessed of an air rifle in the ground! Yes he got it into the ground!.
Best visits were the famous 1978 visit when we won 5-0. happy Christmas indeed. I got locked out in 1971-that game was NOT all-ticket and there must have been 80,000 trying to get in. It was scary. I also remember standing in a whole group of Scummers when we beat them 2-1 in 1973. I think Storey got the winner. Happy days . It is a fixture which always has goals. I’d settle for a 7-6 winning it on the tie break.
COYG.
Park Lane ’68 tells you a great deal about where we went in those days. The classic was probably May 70, days after winning the Fairs Cup. Arsenal definitely controlled three sides of the Lane that day, starting in the Park Lane again.
It amuses me these days when you go to Tottenham or Chelsea you are seated in a part of the ground you would have never got straight in back in the day.
Cheers.
God speaks! But he doesn’t seem to know a lot about his own good works…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Nxqyp-TDT7k
Oskar
Holic, Really enjoyed your piece @ SWOL , it was lovely. Feel bad I didn’t acknowledge all the panelists who took part in the open mike forum, the other day. Good to put a face to these columnists, makes them more human (even if I don’t agree with them).
On a coach to Plymouth for an Applicant Open Day at their University, shame I missed my 5:30pm coach though, it was an interesting 6 hours that passed as I killed time waiting for the 11:45pm one, I reached my nadir by myself and my zenith with help from my mates 🙂 , humans truly aren’t meant to be alone as social creatures.
Pitch-black outside apart from workers’ vehicles on the motorway or the vehicle going the other way or a rare sighting of a lamppost. Killing time by backreading newspapers from the last few days, next I’ll get stuck into a few books or nod off until 4:30am when I reached my destination, maybe even both 🙂 ‘So Paddy Got Up’ is one of the 5 in my rucksack, what better time for a first time read eh? :p
Shit, cramp.
‘Holic, nice post you wrote here, I also read the piece you wrote over there at Swol, it’s definitely top-drawer stuff, how you manage to vivdly remember events that took place so long ago amazes me.
H2h @16, maybe Lawro is just fed up of been proven wrong and made to look foolish over and over again by The greatest team the world has ever seen?
Wind @33, goodluck, mate.
Great stuff ‘holic. I’d normally order a pint o’ plain from your bar but I had so many last night that I think a Jameson 1780 will have to do. Cheers.
I always feel a bit jittery whenever Lawrenson has us down for a win, as he gets so many predictions wrong!
Sagna not playing is a little bit of a worry but once we keep it tight in central defence we’ll be fine I think…
What a memory! I’m the same vintage as you ‘Holic and I just about remember Terry Anderson, but Freddie Clarke? I don’t even recall the name.
CoR: I agree, I’m not sure Jenks in for Bac is too much of a worry. Bale doesn’t play on the wing very much these days. He plays more like a striker or attacking midfielder. The last few games they have pretty much sat back and allowed the opposition have the ball and looked to play on the break through Bale. It has worked well for them so far so it is of utmost important that we don’t lose the ball in the wrong areas because if we do then we will be punished.
But that’s for tomorrow, not I have to deal with a much more pressing issue: having breakfast.
bah… not now
And #40 made even less sense…
not < – > now
Did that look better? 🙂
Great review of an un-neighbourly relationship, Holic. Here’s hoping we give them some more pain tomorrow. We know they deserve it. Bloody Mary eye-openers on the bar, gents.
heh Lars!
Morning chums.
Not surprised you don’t remember Freddie, Baz. Understudy to Flint McCullough tells you all you need to know 😉
Thanks for the kind words all.
Baz@40. Freddie Clarke was a left back from Northern Ireland who I thought was better than Billy McCullough who usually played there. He wasn’t in the team long. Saly I believe Terry Anderson passed away with cancer some years ago.
‘Holic is right about the number of Arsenal fans who got into games then. I watched us from all over the ground and for some reason also went to see other games there so I could support the other team I guess. The atmosphere was electric but the mutual hate is worse now.
A few seasons ago I went with my son in law wh s from the dark side and we ad a couple of pints in what passes for a pub in that God forsaken area. I went to the bar and was engaged in conversation by a Neanderthal who was praying they would beat us at last. It was the season where our reserves dumped them out of the League Cup semi final. I asked him why he thought Spurs didn’t win and through clenched teeth he said ” cos they are miles better than us”. It was a sweet moment even though we drew 2-2 ,Jenas scoring in the last minute. You would have thought they had won the League afterwards! Losers.
Guess no one reminded Barca n madrid that the oscars got over and that they can stop auditioning.Rubbish overacting for every small touch which this idiotic ref gives a yellow card for the slightest brush to both sets of players..
Finally got around to trying that :
http://walex.tumblr.com/post/29505194811/how-to-remove-felt-lettering-from-epl-shirts
Sadly, I didn’t even manage to start scratching a single letter. Fucking annoying.
As for tomorrow why does it feel that the whole season hinges on the result.Win and everything looks hunkydory,lose and spuds would establish a lead which would be hard even for them to fuck up.
CM, Agree, both sides were pitiful with their diving. But what set Valdes off at the end, he went from yellow to red in the blink of an eye. Thought he had a good game but Barca’s defense failed him, repeatedly.
I guess it’s still too much to hope for Atletico to win the league?
🙁
CM, to a large extent the season does hinge on tomorrow. A loss will put us five behind Chelsea and seven behind the spuds with only ten games to go. Not at all impossible, but very, very difficult.
But once more our longer-term future has rather little to do with tomorrow. Another summer of losing our two best players and we will be nowhere near the CL places the next season anyway, but a good summer and we’ll be much closer to the top regardless of where we finish this season.
Heh looks like PSG are 1-0 down, Reims scored shortly after going a man down.
Fucking annoying that this can only benefit Lyon though.
It looks like the Season of Cunts.
Based on that, I think we’ll drop out of the CL….
I doubt Wilshere and Cazorla will go next summer, Lars!
Money can’t beat history. 10-men Reims beat PSG 1-0.
Even played the last 2 mines of added time with 9 due to injury.
Had to laugh at a late Beckham corner not clearing the first man :p
Ollie, I don’t think so either – in fact I am rather optimistic about or longer-term prospects.
Hi all it’s been quiet in the bar hope its not the calm b4 the storm,surely not if history has anything to do with it 🙂 anyone lucky enough to be there enjoy.8 cold ones chilling in the fridge for the game can’t wait.4 1 to the good guys.podolski brace just a hunch.
Proper shawcrossing in the Nice vs St Etienne game.
The ban will be lengthy (this is not the English FA)
Lars @ 51
Could not be more spot on.
This is precisely how I feel right now. I would prefer that we finish fifth and spend some genuine money in the summer than finish fourth and spend nowt. If we do not exhibit some improved spending power I will feel extremely nervous about the future.
I hear whispers that we have lined up Capoue and Jovetic. Those are two transfers that would not seem likely to depend on champs league football and which would immediately and dramatically improve our first XI. I’m sure I don’t need to point out that the premier league’s current top scorer was bought by a mid table side. You can buy quality outside the top four if necessary.
All of that said, I fervently hope we manage our usual finish in the top spots. Tomorrow would seem pretty important in that context. Stand firm lads, don’t let the media shit you up. Our league form is better than theirs and Theo has virtually the same number of goals as the simian (and several more assists). You would never guess either of those facts from what we’ve all been reading this week. This is not a moment for faint hearts and Piers Morgan and his ilk can cock off and cry in the corner for the next 24 hours while the real support roar the lads on.
A draw would do me. A win would put me on cloud nine. Whatever happens, they’ll still be a poxy outfit with a crumbling shithole stadium and a muggy support.
COYG
A new job for the sub-ed! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>