Time For The FA To Show A Lead
Jan 14th, 2015 by 'holic
Last week saw a Football League club close to signing a convicted rapist, out on licence so not having completed his time contrary to popular misrepresentation of the facts. A good friend of a friend, Malin, some of you will have met her before and after matches, asked to produce a guest post on the subject. That she is a Gooner entitles her to have her views aired on this medium before anyone makes a snap judgement to the contrary. That I agree with every word makes it compulsory for me. Thank you Malin.
A few days have passed since Oldham released the statement that they were no longer considering signing convicted rapist Ched Evans.
A correct decision, and yet which still leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth. It was the right decision, as it was when Sheffield United decided not to let the striker train with his old club, but a right decision made for all the wrong reasons.
The level of naivety with which the clubs, their representatives and other prominent names within the football community have approached this subject is staggering.
Football prides itself on being a vital part of any local community. Footballers are the number one source of male role models in the United Kingdom (and many other parts of the world as well). This means that, whether they want it to be the case or not, they have a certain responsibility.
Evans is not the first footballer to be convicted of a crime and I am fairly sure he won’t be the last.
The fact that there aren’t any guidelines when it comes to situations like these is, frankly, crazy. It’s as if everyone in the football world thought this wasn’t going to be a big deal.
I’m happy that the general public proved them wrong.
But I’m disappointed that football failed to realise this. Being a female football supporter I am very aware that football, in many ways, is still a boys-only club. Even though things are improving, we have a long way to go, and this case only emphasises that fact.
I have seen endless comments trying to play down what Evans did as “not real rape”, stating that the girl was drunk and knew what she was getting into when she decided to take the taxi back to the hotel together with Evans’ mate. This is not only a horrific case of victim blaming, it’s also incredibly disrespectful to the girl.
Before Evans can even consider going back to playing professional football, he needs to show he’s understood what it is he’s done and take responsibility for his actions.
Step number one would be to close down his website which proclaims Evans to be “wrongly convicted of rape” and tell his fiancée’s father, Karl Massey, to back off. Right now the businessman is doing more to harm than to help his future son-in-law.
The website has, besides other things, published CCTV footage showing the victim entering the hotel together with Evans’ mate and encouraging people to “make up your own mind” as to whether or not the girl was too drunk to consent.
With friends like Karl Massey, and the Internet followers who tirelessly harass the victim, Evans doesn’t need enemies.
I’m also terribly disappointed in the statements coming out in Evans’ defence from the likes of Steve Bruce and Harry Redknapp. About as disappointed as I am in the lack of big names taking a stand for the victim in all of this, in fact.
So many big names within football are expressing concerns about Evans’ well being and his right to get on with his life. But I have seen few mentions of the girl in question.
Not many talk about her right to get on with her life. Something she cannot do considering she’s been forced to change her identity five times, according to her father, because Evans’ supporters continue to hunt her down and expose her.
Some people seem to claim that Evans only did what any other 20-something young man would do in that same situation.
And this is the main problem.
Those who are defending Evans are shouting themselves hoarse pointing at how much the victim had to drink, that she knew what she was getting into, that she has herself to blame – but they all miss the point.
Nothing about her behaviour should matter.
The natural response to meeting a too-drunk girl on the street after a late night shouldn’t be to bring her back to your hotel room, all the while texting your mate about how you “got a bird”.
The natural response is never ever to take advantage of someone.
Pretending that what Evans and his friend did is normal, or simply is what to be expected, should offend any other man out there who knows they would never do the same thing.
This isn’t only football’s problem. It’s society’s problem. The way that some men keep saying that we can’t know if Evans actually is guilty seem to conveniently forget that a jury, with access to the full details, thought that he was. The court that denied Evans his appeal agreed.
The Criminal Cases Review Commission has agreed to review his conviction, but this doesn’t mean he’s innocent. It doesn’t even mean that the CCRC will actually find enough to warrant an appeal.
But still – the footballing world is full with men who weren’t present and are sure that they know better than the witnesses, the jury or the judge. With men who claim it isn’t really rape. Who claim Evans really isn’t that kind of guy.
Evans has every right to play football, but he has no undisputed right to do it professionally. And he definitely has no right to doing so without any criticism going his way.
The situation he is in now is a direct result of the choices he made that night in Rhyl. What happened afterwards didn’t happen to him – it happened as a consequence of his actions and the choices he made.
Football needs to take responsibility and show that it is an inclusive sport for everyone – and not a boys-only-club where men of different ages only look out for themselves and each other.
They owe that much to all their female supporters, all the young boys and girls who are looking up to these players and above all everyone who has ever been the victim of something like what happened to the girl in Rhyl.
I believe Evans can play football professionally again, but I believe that the club who decides to sign him must realise what it means to be a part of his rehabilitation. Oldham, it would appear, thought they could get a talented footballer at a bargain price because of his conviction, but without accepting any of the responsibility. This is insultingly arrogant.
Evans is not helped by people telling him he has done nothing wrong. He is helped by people holding him accountable for his actions.
If football is serious in its claims to be a sport open to everyone, this could have been a great time to show it. Instead we are left with a shambolic mess that very few, least of all those representing the beautiful game that is football, come out of with any shred of dignity.
This IS important because we, the wider population that football has fought to court in recent years, feel strongly about it.
Those representing football today owes it to the supporters to take it seriously.
158 Responses to “Time For The FA To Show A Lead”
Superb article Malin. Thanks for taking the time and effort.
I’m pretty certain I met you last season with Lars & Tabs.
The article heightens raises awareness on such an important subject.
Very well said, malin, and a very serious subject not only in the uk but here in the states, for most of the same reasons…not least that the victim is often blamed, shamed, or ignored.
Well said, Malin. It would do football a world of good to realise it is part of a wider world, not the centre of its own self-contained universe. The way cricket dealt with the death of Philip Hughes, albeit that was a completely different sort of challenge to the integrity of the game to the one the Ched Evans affair poses to football, showed that a professional sport can act with maturity if it has the will to do so and has remained in touch with common human decency.
Otd from the previous drinks: Do I understand that your preferred line-up would be:
Ospambo
Chambo, Perambo, Kosambo, Nachambo,
Rambo, Le Coqambo
Theambo, Shambo, Özambo
Girambo
So no place for Oxambo, Santambo or Rosambo, with Wojambo still consigned to the naughty bench?
I have no problem with a convicted rapist resuming his professional football career (once his sentence is fully served) – just so long as it isn’t to any club I support.
Öskar
Not Shambo, Ned, Shalexambo. Shambo would be that new RB/CD we bought from Shoton.
Yes, I’d give Shwozambo another game to inhale the fresh air of the bench.
Öskar
As I said (think I said), Ned, in the last round I wouldn’t be surprised to see any or all of Ox, Santi or TR& starting against $iteh, I just wouldn’t include them in my ‘best’ XI.
Öskar
Is anyone else having a problem with text jumping about in the reply box I’m writing this in? It’s driving me nuts. Just wondering, it’s more likely something on my puter… 🙁
Öskar
Hi Malin,
Redemption must be earned. You have been very fair to him. This case reminds me of Michael Vick. He never showed true REMORSE for his dog fighting ring.
Would love for you to visit again xx
As you say, he has every right to play football. I believe that this makes it a league issue not an FA one. I don’t object to sex offenders kicking a ball on Hackney Marshes subject to the license rules being fulfilled.
The Premier League should take the lead and other leagues should follow suit; a fit and proper person test for players.
That is a bang on post Malin, one of the best articles I have read on the subject anywhere. You have identified the nub of the issue – the lack of contrition and appalling hounding of the victim – while also acknowledging that there are important nuances here.
I can understand people making an argument that a man who has served his time is entitled to get on with his life. I don’t entirely agree in this instance, but it’s not an argument without value.
What I cannot for the life of me understand are the apologists who point to the girl’s behaviour as if it could possibly justify Evans’ actions. You are entitled to get as drunk as you like without surrendering your fundamental right to decide who and who not to have sex with. It really isn’t a difficult concept to grasp.
Anyway, thank you for the excellent piece.
Thankyou for your time and effort Malin.
You prompted me to go read a full examination of the case and the rejection of the appeal. I think it is clear that the behaviour of both men involved is reprehensible. But I am amazed that a jury felt either man could be found guilty ‘beyond reasonable doubt’- no matter the likelihood. This principle exists to prevent the innocent from being convicted. My personal feeling is that a sacred rule of law has been broken to convict a guilty man. But I am concerned by any society that does not apply the idea of reasonable doubt rigorously and as a matter of the greatest importance.
People have been acting as though his conviction is ‘not real’ etc. Rubbish. We must accept the juries’ verdict. But I think a lot of people who have heard all sides of the argument struggle to understand how anyone not in that room could say for certain that consent was not given.
Cont.
“If, on the other hand, you conclude that she chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty.”
From the judges’ original summing up.Seems just impossible to say ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ and I think this has caused all the problems. People have held on to the idea that he is innocent. Or wrongly convicted.
Rather than treat him like a rapist.
All in all a thought provoking, well conceived and well written piece. Made me realise that while I had been keeping out of this issue we all have a duty to tackle this as a football community.
Thanks Malin. Really great piece.
I do wonder how much airtime would have been given to this case if the perpetrator of the crime had been signed to a club above the ‘lower leagues’. Which is massively shameful, as I suspect (but have no more evidence than heresay) that there are plenty more wrongdoings that take place in football which are magically spirited away from public view by large stashes of used fivers in brown envelopes.
Every person in a civil, pluralistic, democratic society has the right to redemption from a catastrophically stupid mistake. But real redemption requires contrition and actively making amends. Personally I see neither having taken place in this case thus far. I hope that changes.
Thanks Malin, and ‘Holic, for keeping the discussion alive.
Oskar. I had text problems a couple of months ago. I think it was a bug in the search engine or some such. Not a very technological guy I simply started using a new one and that solved the issue.
Apparently my phone would love you to be called Oscar. Cannot get its head around the ‘k’.
Why let anyone with a criminal record work anywhere?
GSD, working at a university you can imagine i hear about these debates pretty frequently. given that alcohol was involved, consent becomes a really, really grey area.
to wit, our campus sexual assault and rape prevention group has a definition of consent: “Consent is an agreement that each person makes if they want to engage in sexual activity. The issue of consent can be a complicated and ambiguous area that needs to be addressed with clear, open, and honest communication. Keep these points in mind if you are not sure consent has been established: (point 1) Each person needs to be fully conscious and aware. The use of alcohol or other substances can interfere with someone’s ability to make clear decisions about the level of intimacy they are comfortable with. The more intoxicated a person is, the less they are able to give conscious consent. (and in point 3) Consent is not the absence of the word “no”.
in 13 you omitted the first part of the judge’s instructions to the jury, here: “So you will need to consider the evidence of the complainant’s state and decide these two questions: was she in a condition in which she was capable of making any choice one way or another? If you are sure that she was not, then she did not consent. If, on the other hand, you conclude that she chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty.”
clearly, the jury found she was not “in a condition in which she was capable of making any choice”, and found him guilty. that aligns with the definition of consent used here at my university.
and, when the judge came to pass evans’ sentence he said this: “…. [she] was in no position to form a capacity to consent to sexual intercourse, and you, when you arrived, must have realised that.” based on the fact that evans left through the emergency exit, i believe he realized just that fact, or something similar…though it doesn’t really matter what *i* believe, obviously.
the nfl here in the united states is currently using a zero tolerance policy for this sort of thing, and for things like domestic abuse, etc. abb’s reference to michael vick was apt, as well, even though it was outside the realm of abuse to another human. we have a duty to tackle this as a community of supporters, but more importantly as a community *period*, to educate our children (especially our sons) about what is consent, and where the lines are drawn. footballers aren’t their only role models.
Excellent post Scruz . Interesting and useful comparisons. Thanks for sharing your experience in this sort of area. Fortunately, I have little, if any.
Going back further still from the judge:
“A complainant consents if, and only if, she has the freedom and capacity to make a choice, and she exercised that choice to agree to sexual intercourse.”
“There are two ways in which drink and/or drugs can affect an individual who is intoxicated. First, it can remove inhibitions. A person may do things when intoxicated which she would not do, or be less likely to do if sober. Secondly, she may consume so much alcohol and/or drugs that it affects her state of awareness. So you need to reach a conclusion upon what was the complainant’s state of intoxication, such as you may find it to be. Was she just disinhibited, or had what she had taken removed her capacity to exercise a choice?”
He went on to explain: “A woman clearly does not have the capacity to make a choice if she is completely unconscious through the effects of drink and drugs, but there are various stages of consciousness, from being wide awake to dim awareness of reality. In a state of dim and drunken awareness you may, or may not, be in a condition to make choices. So you will need to consider the evidence of the complainant’s state and decide these two questions: was she in a condition in which she was capable of making any choice one way or another? If you are sure that she was not, then she did not consent. If, on the other hand, you conclude that she chose to agree to sexual intercourse, or may have done, then you must find the defendants not guilty.”
It is a horrible grey area to decide when a person becomes too intoxicated to give consent and I think the key for all of us is to be a million miles away from this situation at all times. It just seems inconsistent that she consented to one man but without drinking any more alcohol she crossed the line and became unable to give consent to another. I am not saying this is not what happened- simply that it seems hard to establish that- I do not know how you would.
Most jury decisions are easy to follow and understand. Most cases are far more black and white. A little more explanation of how the verdict was reached might help.
I think the whole thing hinges on the fact that many people don’t consider him truly guilty of rape. A jury of his peers with access to all the information say he is. If more light could be shed on how they came to their verdict and what convinced them it MUST have been a rape then it would end all of this ‘not real rape’ bollocks. I have done some reading and read the summary/quotes and I do not understand how the verdict was reached- it is unclear. No-one sticking up for the guy thinks of him as a ‘true’ rapist. If they did even they would have to rethink their stance and withdraw all support.
I’m sure if you read all that is was out of respect for the issue rather than my literary excellence but thanks all the same.
As an aside.
My flatmate was walking home drunk at about 4 in the morning a few months ago. He found a girl with no coat sobbing in a doorway on a relatively busy street even at that hour. Many people had walked by her. He stopped and asked her what was wrong. She was an 18 year old student who had lost her phone/purse etc. in a club and been separated from her mates.
He calmed her down, walked her ten minutes out of his way to a cab office he knows and paid them to take her home. He thought of all of this as being a fairly standard way to react in the circumstances.
“I can’t believe how nice you are,” she says once she has calmed down a bit.
“Now what would my mum say if I left you there crying, eh?” He replies. Says it all.
We can all be good and bad. Good life lessons, values and role models do stay with you. And many men know how to behave towards a lady who has had a few too many.
Let us hope the lessons learned from this whole sorry business help increase that number.
Really excellent post Malin. I agree with every word. When Evans was attempting to reserect his football career I was somewhat amazed at some of the reports that I had read. Evans has been convicted of rape. He has been released from prison on licence. Footballers are highly rewarded for playing a game that we all love. Whilst they enjoy the riches that they bring, they must accept the responsibilities and restrictions such a career brings. There will be many in all kinds of professions that if they receive a criminal conviction will have absolutely no chance of returning to that career.
Football and footballers has a certain duty to society. They put themselves in the spot light. No one forces them to, it’s their choice. Some of the comments surrounding Evans were quite simply disgusting. As the father of a 15 year old football loving and playing daughter, the thought of a convicted rapist taking the field just goes against everything I consider to be morally correct.
The legal issues can be complicated. Changes to the Sexual Offences Act some years ago tried to address the issue of consent. Section 74 of the 2003 act states that consent has to contain ALL of the following. An agreement by choice. The freedom to make that choice and the ability to make a reasoned and informed decision. There are evidential presumptions and conclusive presumptions that also form part of the Act and deal with the matter of consent. If someone is unable to consent due to intoxication then the onus is very much on the male to ensure that there is reasoned and informed consent. If it is not possible to obtain this then there is no consent.
I agree totally about those who continue to surround Evans and try to advise him. Their actions have been shameful and totally disrespectful. I can’t see how any of it is productive in helping Evans take steps towards rehabilitation. I would suggest that the total arrogance of the whole campaign have done nothing but alienate more and more of the football community.
Thanks again for a great piece.
.
malin as a name
i’ve not heard before
malin town and malin head
both donegal
.
sorry
just waffling as usual
Excellent article Malin and a critically important point of view for footballers and football fans to be hearing.
On another front, in yesterday’s ACLF blog Yogi’s Warrior writes about Monreal that other than Alexis, “he has been the most consistent of any other squad member.”
Consistently good as well as one of the few who haven’t had a long term injury I could add, but Monreal has had a very good season and I’m glad to see him getting his due.
On a completely different note, nothing at all to do with the topic today,
thought I’d share this gem : http://imgur.com/gallery/94Jue
Read and weep.. (with laughter i hope!)
😀
P.s – Props to Malin for an insightful article.
Well dug in and prepared for the City onslaught! :http://i.imgur.com/m2OP81Y.jpg
😀
The Guardian says Arteta will be out for “many more weeks.”
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/14/arsenal-mikel-arteta-arsene-wenger-danny-welbeck
Finally the straw to break the camel’s back convincing the manager to sign a defensive midfielder in this transfer window?
Don’t make me laugh.
Same article says Debuchy will miss three months, not the shorter period the doctors originally hoped for. The signings of a defensive midfielder and a centre half are obviously both required but will we get either one. Another proposition to make me erupt in hysterics.
All those injuries in positions which we are short…. 🙁
And we have Ozil, Alexis, Santi and Welbeck all capable of going down the left….!
Arghhhhhhhhhhhh!
When will the gods smile favourably on us??!!!
Time to make offerings to the Transfer Demigods then….
😀
Rumour:
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/420143/Arsenal-Borussia-Dortmund-Hummels-Gundogan
——————
Bring ’em in!!!!!!!
😀
Would be great BB but:
When the Daily Star uses a headline with the language “set to launch” I think it can be translated as “They haven’t done anything.”
First of all – thanks for all the comments and nice words! It means a lot and I’m glad there are so many of us who see the bigger problem here.
As for the consent issue I agree that it really is a tricky one. It always is going to be difficult because (usually) it is only the victim and the perpetrator present and it almost always comes down to he-said-she-said. And there are so many things to take into consideration.
One could argue that a place to start is that instead of assuming it’s always a YES until a NO is clearly spoken, one should assume that it’s a NO until one can be sure it’s really a YES.
There is some idea in out there what a “true rapist” and a “true victim” really is and the public seem to have a problem with anyone who falls out of that box.
Even looking away from this particular case, and looking at the wider picture, these are things that need to be talked about. As I said – it’s a massive problem that so many are playing down what happened with it being “normal guy stuff”. There isn’t anything normal about this, and the sooner young guys (as they are mostly young guys) realise this the better.
Again, thanks a lot for reading people!
@bt8b
Well.. regardless am keeping my fingers and toes crossed!
Not too long before we’ll need replacements for Arteta and Flamini, my guess is we will be holding out until someone of similar or better capabilities become available.
And then we’ll pounce…. : http://i.imgur.com/zwX4r1h.webm
😀
good article Malin, thank you.
Great article and i am one of those who believe anyone who has committed such a heinous crime should not be a part of the society itself, forget the sport.
Arteta crocked for 3 months.
We’ll probably buy an attacking midfielder as cover…
I kid, I kid.
There will be no cover.
Excellent article, Malin and interesting discussion that followed. TTG has previously underlined the importance of the rehabilitation of offenders (which I understand is not contingent upon an expression of guilt or regret) and this area seems an absolute minefield not helped in this case by the behaviour of the offender and his supporters.
One sadness is that the offender has generated a disproportionate amount of discussion compared of the effect of this circus on the unfortunate victim.
Dreadful news on Arteta.
So now both Arteta and Debuchy out for 3 months… !
Replacements look imminent…yes?!
Need to get Sissoko in and if we are interested in Winston Reid, we need to do the deal now rather than wait for the summer. No point hanging about and wasting half a season to get a player on a free instead of paying a fee. It’s a false economy if continuing short leaves us outside the top four.
Get it done.
Marcelo Brozovic, well that just maybe the answer to the midfield that sorely lacks the DM. He is not exactly the perfect choice but then he is adequate and definitely better than what we have.
The MOTD panel of Neville and Carragher were excellent in their assessment post the united/saints game. When speaking of the city Arsenal game, they said Arsenal play the best football in the land but can they truly defend??? Can the entire team put in a defensive shift to be able to stop silva and co. Yes i also had the question as to how will city stop our attackers lead by Sanchez but the the point was our defensive stability.
Arsenal need a Cb first and a DM next, both have to be first teamers who can come in and start playing. Answers maybe difficult but the need of the hour should make us go over the odds if need be.
Are we still haggling over Reid? i mean please if he is the player we need, then lets pay and get him playing asap. This dilly-dallying will haunt us bad, please boss there aint enough time left.
Somewhere in the depths of a dank and dark locker room, pins and needles are still being stuck in a gingerbread man covered with the ever recognizable red strip adorned with the words ‘Victoria Concordia Crescit’..
The injuries list grows more daunting.
One Massive goalie (..or is it one of them Ref’s having a game?!): http://i.imgur.com/qSYzkiW.jpg
🙂
BB – Phil Dowd 😛
@Eandy
I thought he looked familiar….
… 😀
Good post. I think the fact that Evans’ brother and others were attempting to film the events that took place through the window, sums him up. An animal. Who should have been put down by now.
Malin, thank you for your thoughts on the Evan’s saga, a truly despicable character, who deserves no consideration until the legal niceties and his period on license expire.
I have some views on the responsibility of women but I fear they might only add fuel to the smouldering fire and are best not aired in this forum.
As for the latest injury news, I can only wish Arteta and Debuchy a speedy recovery from their Ops and along with all of you urge Arsene to get cracking with signing a CD and a DMF asap. I wonder why it has taken so long to diagnose the need for Arteta’s ankle Op?
I am still hopeful of a result on Sunday.
COYRs
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20150115/wenger-we-want-one-or-two-players-
“We work really hard morning until late night to try to get one or two players in.”
Arsène Wenger says Arsenal are working hard to bring in “one or two players” before the transfer window closes.
—————
The chances of us signing someone has increased significantly methinks!
😀
howdy ‘holic
can i ask you?
have ye decided
reconsidered
or bla stuff etc
about
the continuance of this here bar?
hope ye don’t think i’m being nosey
just that
as abb said
just recently
brilliant insight was given
into drinkers non arse opinioms
its a given
we’re all gooners
but like any bar
getting behind someones eyeballs
the reason ye come back again
well
that and beer
recent posts are testament
to a fine fella runnin a fine bar
so
lets face it
i am being a nosey cunt
wha?
🙂
Holic and Malin, thank you for such a thoughtful article. The issue of sexism in football needs to be addressed and it’s good to see it here.
Thanks all for your contributions on this excellent piece.
And yes, cba, never say never, but reconsidered for now thanks to a lot of fine people, thank you.
‘holic
🙂
.
cheers big man
top o the range
An excellent discussion on the Evans case above. A tip of the hat to Malin for laying out her case so eloquently
…oops, touch of the Otd wobbly keyboards above….
An excellent discussion on the Evans case above. A tip of the hat to Malin for raising the issue so eloquently and thought provokingly, and to ‘Holic for posting it.
One of the most depressing aspects is that the phrase “not a real rapist” even exists in this day and age, as if there was such a thing as a faux rapist. Sex in the absence of consent is rape. That is how the law — and common decency — defines it. Neither Evans, nor anyone else, is entitled to their own definition. Nor to their private law and verdicts. Evans may well believe he is innocent, albeit only by his own lights (he clearly does), but nothing in his conduct since his conviction does anything to diminish the view that, on the basis of his character, the jury got their guilty decision right.
Within the purlieus of Castle Ned there are relatives of some incarcerated in Chinese jails truly unjustly who bear themselves with greater dignity than Evans could ever imagine in the face of greater suffering that he will ever experience.
…er… than he will ever experience.
Mats Hummels and İlkay Gündoğan would be great, nearly as good as the Hummels/Reus duo I’ve been suggesting for the past 18 months.
In fact … and I don’t ever take Wiki as gospel … if you check out their Gündoğan page you’ll see that he’s ALREADY LISTED as an Arsenal player! What do they know that we don’t I wonder?
But he’s no DMF, more of a playmaker a la Özilla. Could the multi-million pound deal being talked about include Özil going the other way? Hmmmmm.
Öskar
I always think it unwise to debate issues such as rape when all you know about particular cases is what you read second or third hand, while being in complete ignorance of much of the evidence.
But (you knew there was a ‘but’ coming, ay) if a woman manages to get so completely off her face that she hasn’t a clue what’s going on she is inevitably laying herself open to being ‘taken advantage of’.
That in no way excuses he who takes the advantage, but it does raise the odds of it happening substantially, in the same way as ridiculing someone’s religious views increases the likelihood of that someone seeking revenge.
Whether rape and murder can be compared is moot, but either can be encouraged or provoked when the possible results of one’s behaviour are cavalierly ignored.
No, I don’t mean she was ‘asking for it’, but she certainly made it a lot easier for the kind of guys we all know are out there to take it anyway.
Öskar
Oskar. It is an hour later now and I checked Gundogan’s page on Wikipedia. He has now apparently been transferred back to Dortmund with no mention of his ever having been an Arsenal player. Reliable source? 😉
Oskar, there is the matter of her drink being tampered with …
As Malin so brilliantly outlined in her response to us, personal boundaries should be respected. Pay attention to non verbal cues.
Delia (and Oskar) I hear what you’re implying. Unfortunately, some young women are so in need of being validated, they mistake attention for friendship. This is a general observation.
bathgooner @37 How on earth is someone going to be rehabilitated without acknowledging their guilt. Surely that must be their first step.
I suspected someone was being mischievous, 8ball, as the last edit was supposedly in 2014.
Never mind, perhaps it will happen anyway.
Öskar
cba @48 You speak for us all, my dear friend. xx
Abb, bless you. And, thank you. 😉
I’m not implying anything, abb, just pointing out the wisdom of taking care NOT to put yourself in a vulnerable position when you know full well you are among people who will take any advantage they can get. Watching no-one spikes your drink, for example, is as de rigeur for any woman in a bar as not drinking to a state of intoxication at any time.
Öskar
“if a woman manages to get so completely off her face that she hasn’t a clue what’s going on she is inevitably laying herself open to being ‘taken advantage of.”
Oskar. What an incredibly sad state of affairs. The thought that a woman who has had too much too drink should automatically render herself liable to being “taken advantage of” is quite simply repulsive. The thought that any woman who enjoys a drink should be vulnerable to some Neanderthal who does not understand what consent means does not portray our society as a civilised one.
NBN @53 Bravo (last paragraph).
There is a young Ukraine female pilot unjustly imprisoned in Russia, her fate lies in Putin’s hands. She’s running for political office, from her jail cell. Women are more than décor!
Oh Holic and holics, Hello! Now to read your thought’s, properly 😉
A sad state of affairs, Martin? Indeed, but it’s been reality for as long as I have experienced the pleasures of public social intercourse. And understanding the consequences of disregarding ALL possibilities concomitant with your actions is akin to stepping out into the road without looking for oncoming traffic.
I am as disgusted as anyone with what happened to this woman, but just saying how appalling the guy’s behaviour was is not going to prevent it happening again. The best defence for any woman is to avoid putting themselves in a position where some other guy is waiting his opportunity.
Öskar
Oskar. I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree more. Perhaps some of those you refer to need to learn how to be human beings along with a considerable amount of manners, decency and respect.
But it’s not going to happen, Martin. To be safe women need to be constantly on their guard, not just hoping bad guys won’t be bad guys.
Öskar
Holic, Oskar, Martin (and anyone looking in), Do you ever wonder how we survived our youth …
Now, Mr Pardew has given our Sanogo, a ringing endorsement, as he feels Yaya has the ‘CHAOS’ factor! Give this lad plenty of game time, Alan, please! 😉
Indeed, abb. When I think we had record times between pubs of a weekend … with my front seat passenger standing up in the Lotus so he could check whether it was safe to take corners on the wrong side of narrow Surrey lanes…
Or tobogganing down a long and winding hill in the same car after it snowed and froze into ice while we were dining in the pub. Something I could never have attempted sober…
Öskar
I’m glad I don’t live anywhere near your world Oskar.
Abb. The best thing that could happen to Sanago was a loan move. He has the chance to get match fit and play regularly. If he is able to achieve that then I think you will start to see the real YaYa Sanogo. What that actually is and if it is good enough at the higher level I guess we will soon find out. I would love to see him make it with us. Sadly, I have massive doubts that it will ever happen.
From all the evidence I have seen it is agreed that Mcdonald met the girl whilst he was separated from his group and after she had been drinking. Having read a paraphrased version of the judges pre and post sentencing comments I have seen nothing anywhere about her drink being tampered with. In the interest of being factually accurate about this.
GSD, the young lady, in this case, voiced concerns that her adult beverage had been ‘altered’. She knows her own body, better than anyone.
Oskar @70, Hey, enjoyed that! 🙂 xx
Fair enough abb. I had not seen that. Although there is no suggestion that was by Mcdonald or Evans? Your point is much appreciated, again, for being accurate about the facts.
Martin, appreciate your thoughts on Sanogo. When Gervinho left us, I was gutted. He didn’t score much, but he was enthralling to watch. Sanogo has something about him, as well. He plays to the beat of his own drum. Lovely.
GSD @75 I don’t know if she submitted to a UDS (Urine Drug Screen). I don’t know what her blood alcohol level was (or his).
What I do know, is that SHAME will delay a victim for reporting a rape. Precious time lost, in gathering evidence. What we do know is that her life, has been irrevocably been changed. Wish her the best on going forwards. xx
I have a feeling we had best go for all the aces in this game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK_d-Vg495c
If we don’t, we might as well be in Philadelphia. 🙂
@bt8b
Ha! Enjoyed that, Brilliant! Brings new meaning to the stacked deck…
Somehow City and Chavs seem to be having all the aces.. ManU isn’t far behind either. (Although that could change if they don’t qualify for CL this year and the next!)
It’s time we changed the game…
😀
Most women, and indeed men, are at some point in their lives steaming drunk in public.
It doesn’t make it their fault if they are raped, mugged, pick pocketed or otherwise the victims of criminal acts.
Yes, it’s wise not to put yourself in potentially risky situations. But we live in a drinking culture, and to single out an individual amongst the millions who will have been drunk across the country on the night of the incident, purely because she had the misfortune to cross paths with a rapist, seems harsh.
Been trying to formulate my thoughts and either end up basically copying every word of Malin’s magnificent post or end up with an angry, rambling incoherent mess so I’ll just settle for this: I agree with exactly every word Malin said.
But it’s not going to happen, Martin. To be safe women need to be constantly on their guard, not just hoping bad guys won’t be bad guys.
That for me is a very pessimistic view, Oskar. Contrary to popular belief, the world has never been a safer place than it is right now. We do evolve as human beings and while I agree there will always be a few bad apples, that doesn’t mean we shall give up and stop trying to change peoples’ attitudes and stop trying to make them understand why they are wrong.
@Oskar
I still believe that there’s a fundamental problem with your reasoning which is that you imply that, somehow, women are responsible for the actions of men. As far as I’m concerned, it should always be in the best interest of any man to, uh, not be a rapist.
Why are we teaching girls/women not to drink too much in public, not to walk home alone at night, not to go home with a man they don’t know etc?
Surely the sensible thing would be to teach men not to rape?
Or do you mean that men are such hopeless cases that there’s no way they could ever not be rapists, so it’s easier to make women change their behaviour? Because that’s a rather depressing thought, and I think most men would object to that.
This is not something that will change over night but the first step to changing a culture must be to acknowledge the problem.
It is a sad truth and ever has been and ever will be, that humanity contains individuals and groups with a predatory nature who exploit the weaknesses and naivety of others. It is not simply gender-related. There are numerous cases of careless (the word is well chosen) males coming to grief at the hands of predatory males and females.
Oskar is correct in his assertion that we should all be aware of our risks at all times and that “understanding the consequences of disregarding ALL possibilities concomitant with your actions is akin to stepping out into the road without looking for oncoming traffic.”
To do otherwise, is literally to be an innocent abroad. I suspect that those who express incredulity at his assertion have hitherto been fortunate to avoid grief or live in unusually protective communities and environments.
It is simply not safe to be unaware of the risks around you.
@bathgooner
I do see what you (and Oskar) mean (even if I might not completely agree) but my problem with focusing on a victim’s behaviour (no matter the gender) is that it implies that the person him-/herself have some sort of blame in the matter and I just struggle with that.
The problem is that you can do everything “right” and still be a victim. Especially with the kind of crimes that we’re discussing here (rape) where, more often than not, the perpetrator is someone that the victim knows and not some random person they’ve just met.
The thing is that most women constantly live under the threat of rape. We might not think about it, constantly, all the time, but it’s always there – somewhere. It’s a strange thing it explain (and this, as a forum, is probably not the ideal place to do it) but it does affect the every-day decisions of most women I know.
And I do think that these crimes are slightly different than crossing the street without looking or even robbery. The scrutiny under which a woman is put after being the victim of rape is unlike any other situation. Nothing is off limit. Her clothes, sexual preferences, drinking habits etc etc. There are few other crimes (that I can think of, at least) which brings out the same reaction.
Anyway, these are difficult (but interesting!) things to discuss and I don’t believe there are any easy “answers”. However, I do believe it’s crucial to talk about them if we ever want to change things.
bath: It is simply not safe to be unaware of the risks around you.
Certainly so. But that does not mean we can not do everything we can to minimise the risks. Yes, rape will never cease to exist but there are risks to everything. Getting on a plane to fly to London means risking my life, but it is a very, very small risk so I do it anyway. Airline operators have to adhere to rigorous security measures and maintenance programmes and so on, they can’t just say “that went a bit crap, but you know flying is dangerous and Lars could have gone by boat”.
Similarly, it is up the whole of society to change the attitude towards violence and rape to minimise the risks for women (and men, for that matter) to go outside of their own house. Advising girls to not get drunk is also not considering the fact that it rarely matters if the victim is drunk or not.
Minimise risks, yes. But the fault and the problem always lies with the perpetrator of the crime.
Malin, I fully agree that you can do everything ‘right’ and still be a victim. Rape is certainly different as a crime from robbery or murder and it is far too complex a circumstance to be adequately discussed on a forum. Furthermore each individual case is different and must be considered individually.
The little I have read of the case in hand is sufficient to leave me feeling that the jury made the correct decision and my sympathies are entirely with the poor girl who was so shamefully taken advantage of.
My post was merely supporting Oskar’s assertion that we should all endeavour to minimise our own risks. He seemed to have been somewhat called out over his post and I felt that was wrong. Suggesting this does not mitigate the guilt of those reptiles who are evil enough to take advantage of careless individuals nor that all who find themselves victims have in some way been the architects of their own fate.
How is it I find myself agreeing with everyone …
‘The Ones Who Walked away from the Omelas’. The premise in this short story is that our happiness, is dependent on the suffering of others. Brutal concept. If we are honest with ourselves, we will understand how sadly true this is. For example. What you buy. Does it come from a sweat shop. Does the food you eat, endanger the rain forests (Nutela).
This discussion on rape ties in, because again, society at large has an inherent responsibility to protect everyone from the sociopaths who prey on those in their most vulnerable moments.
Malin @84. Speaking of one of several of the regular drinkers on here who are fathers of young daughters, I think that this is more than an appropriate place to be discussing this issue. In parenting, trying to balance the values of safe and exuberant behavior, especially in such an exuberant daughter as mine, will be a mountain of a challenge over the coming years (she is 10 now) and I thank you wholeheartedly for bringing the issue to our attention.
Speaking as, not of, in 88.
Well written piece Malin, thank you.
That is not to say that every daughter is not exuberant, and especially not to say that every daughter does not have the right to remain exuberant despite the need to be aware of safety.
Well put, 8ball!
i think malin’s 82 nearly nails it: “surely the sensible thing to do is to teach men not to rape”.
for “rape” put anything from “take advantage of others” to “murder”.
for “men” put in “boys”, since *that* is when the teaching comes in. when a boy has become a man it’s definitely harder, though no less necessary to teach.
as lars 85 says, it’s always the responsibility of the perpetrator. blaming the victim has for far too long been the mechanism by which the mantle of responsibility has been lain on who has been transgressed against, rather than the transgressor.
that’s another thing to teach your children, your peers, and to learn. we see it in football, yes? “eduardo was too quick”, “rambo went into the tackle”, etc.
my 2¢, anyway.
Chases back down the left, blocking the cross from the by-line. Wins a goal kick…
I would like to thank Malin again for a thought-provoking post. The standard of the debate has been as I would expect, thank you all.
There isn’t much to disagree with. The young have to be brought up to understand fully their responsibilities and what is expected of them in such situations.
When the unthinking commit a crime then in no way shape or form should the victim be considered as having contributed, and thereby identified and laid open to the unthinking and their pals for retribution.
I could probably have put that better four pints ago…
holic, if that’s after four pints, i’ll say your punning is certainly flowing freely there…
i also sense a preview coming 🙂
Nasri calf injury. Very timely.
he’s a wimp, bt. he can’t face up to coq and kozzer’s pocket lint…
Been away for a spell…stumbled back into this discussion.
First of all, thank you, Malin for a well-written contribution.
Second of all, this is a hell of an issue. I have a son. I have a daughter. I am African American (you’ll see the point momentarily).
I fear for my daughter being raped, assaulted, murdered, or taken advantage of.
I fear for my son being accused-of-rape, assaulted, murdered, or taken advantage of.
I also fear for my boy if and when he ever encounters the police for whatever reason. I don’t necessarily have that same fear for my daughter.
My wife and I teach both our children to think for themselves, act bravely and independently, and be kind and respectful. But if I don’t teach my daughter of the perils of drug use or drunkenness, then I have failed to sufficiently prepare her for one of society’s pitfalls. I once read that a woman should be able to walk down the street naked without fear. I think that’s right, if the emphasis is on “should.” All crime cannot be prevented, but it really is cold comfort that a perpetrator is brought to justice after the crime is done. Like a plane crash, most crime incidents are the result of a chain of events that – if a link is broken – can usually be mitigated. So I will teach my daughter to be very careful at parties, not to become isolated from her female friends, not to drink too much, not to go back to guy’s (dormitory/hotel/apartment) rooms unless you are prepared for the possibility of sex, and have an extrication/evacuation plan if you change mind about having sex. I don’t know if I will have the same conversations with my son.
If I don’t teach my son to be hypervigilant whenever alcohol and sex could combine, then I am not preparing him for another social pitfall. I think of the UVA fraternity members who have had their reputations sullied when the Rolling Stone printed and later retracted false rape allegations. Or the members of the Duke Lacrosse team who also were falsely accused of rape. An accusation of that sort results in anxiety and, if lucky, huge legal bills. Perhaps, I will caution my son to keep an intimacy consent agreement form nearby for execution prior to sex…
One of my favorite people, abb, posted earlier about nonverbal cues, but, as a man, that is one of my most significant worries (for my son of course…the management gives me expressed consent for “relations” when she is of the mind – different subject altogether). However, when I think back to my college and young adult days, I cannot recall a time when I and the object of my “affections” for the evening ever had discussion where expressed consent was given. There were glances and other nonverbal cues, but no “Yes, I desire to engage in such and such”…and many times she and I were equally inebriated. What if she had decided the next day, for whatever reason, that she had not consented?
I dunno. I’m glad I’m not out on the scene anymore.
I also am torn about this rehabilitation issue. I know next to nothing about the footballer’s case, so I will say nothing there. Although, abb, I think you are not being very evenhanded to Michael Vick. He did his time, and, after his release, he has done everything asked of him. By all accounts he has spoken at PETA events (I have my own issues with PETA, but that’s another discussion), spoken on behalf of PETA to kids, and has given interviews (not to mention dollars) where his first and unqualified statement is one of contrition. I think you should look at his 60 minutes interview with Ed Bradley for example. I know where you’re coming from, but I’m not sure what more he can do?
But, more generally, what good does it do to forever marginalize convicted criminals? Oskar’s “not-in-my-backyard” position is one societal contributor to recidivism (You are not alone, Oskar, I fully admit to being a hypocrite on this issue). The U.S., especially, does not make it easy for convicts to get on with their lives.
No solutions here, I’m afraid. But drinks for whoever made it through this post to the end.
BMBD
Could it be?
Drink to Lonestar. 🙂
I’ve now read all the posts, interesting debate.
I’m afraid I don’t know enough about the case to offer a well informed opinion, so I won’t.
However, even though it may not be the popular view, i can completly see where Oskar and Bath are coming from. From what I can gather, OtD has in no way, shape or form laid the blame at the foot of the victim.
Martin, I’d love to know where you live, because the world Oskar describes, is pretty much the place I live too. Unfortunatly, the world is an unsafe place, full of arseholes, I wish it wasn’t, but it is.
I’d love to live in a world that we could “teach men not to rape”, sadly we don’t.
Or do you mean that men are such hopeless cases that there’s no way they could ever not be rapists, so it’s easier to make women change their behaviour?
Not all men ofcourse, the very thought of rape makes me sick to my stomach, as it probably does for most sane individuals, but there are more then a fair share of complete basterds out there and they will hurt people. Nothing wrong with educating woman to minimilise the chances of being a victim to this heinus crime. I know in a perfect world this wouldn’t be necassary, but take a look at the news every single day, the world is a fucked up place.
*Doesn’t celebrate out of respect for this debate*
Great post Lonestar, mate.
Fine heartfelt post there Lonestar. You are NOT alone.
Well played Ned.
First of all – I cannot express how incredibly happy I am with the responses to this post and the level of discussion we’re having. One of the (many many many many) reasons I am so proud to be a Gooner <3
I might be naive but I do believe that this all comes back to how we talk about this with our kids, boys and girls, and that is the only way to try and change today's culture.
I don't have kids today but if I would, sometime in the future, have a daughter I would probably teach her the things that I know myself by heart (don't drink too much when at the pub, don't walk home alone from the tube at 3am without a friend on the phone, always keep your hand around your keys in case someone attacks, never engage in conversation with a stranger – unless you are alone with him, then always be polite – but not too polite so that he reads too much into it…it goes on and on and on and on).
I don't think there's anything wrong in that (hey, I'm here, I'm doing all of this) but I do think that we need to put more focus and effort into talking about these things with young boys. And I do hope I would be able to do that as well, to talk to him about how to behave and the meaning of consent.
At a music concert here in Sweden there was a PR stunt where flyers were handed out to guys, titled "8 tips for guys – how not to rape" and it read something along the lines of:
1. Never walk anywhere alone – always bring a friend.
2. Always keep your phone at hand so you can call a friend if the temptation is too big.
3. Avoid drinking alcohol. If you do – don't drink too much and always with a sober friend. Every other water is a good rule.
4. Keep in mind that any form of uninvited touching (even at the front of stage) is just that – uninvited.
5. Never be alone with girls, and try not to attack lone girls. Remember that it's a no even if she is asleep.
6. If you pull someone and you want to start a relationship – wait until you are sure you are not going to rape her. A no is a no.
7. Seek help if you find it difficult not to rape. Contact the staff.
8. Avoid places where you are likely to rape: the loo queue, the stage areas, the camping, food areas and walking to or from the festival area.
Is this a bit extreme and over the top? Of course. Does it seem ridiculous? Yes, definitely. But it does make it quite clear the restraints we put on girls/women about how they should behave to minimise "the risks".
I happened across a free wifi connection in a Costa yesterday evening and crafted a beautifully worded drink. Sadly, by the time I’d polished it – and check the spelling! – well enough to press the submit button, my 30 minutes free time had expired and the whole thing disappeared into the ether, never to return. As I recall:
I started by congratulating Malin on a well argued and well-expressed piece;
I admitted that I didn’t agree with everything she wrote;
I mentioned the old attitude that, on release, a prisoner had “served their debt to society”;
I conceded that Evans hadn’t served his full sentence but said that the criticisms of Oldham and Sheffield United had not been because they had failed to wait the additional months;
I said that I hadn’t followed the case closely enough even to think that I knew anything about the particular circumstances of the case, and that I didn’t think a football blog was likely to be a good place to catch up on the details;
I closed by saying that I didn’t wish for one moment downplay the seriousness of the crime of rape.
I’m sharing this summary with you because I would have done so at even greater length had I been expressing opinions that I was confident would be welcomed.
I shall now go and read the last 24 hours worth of drinks.
Lonestar, Thank you for sharing what had to be so difficult for you.
Your perspective is spot on. xx
As for Michael Vick, I must part company. You see, much of my life has been helping abused animals. When he petitioned the courts, years ago for permission to get a dog for his daughter, it broke my heart. I felt myself soften towards him, but the faces of his victims will haunt me forever.
Lonestar, thank you.
abb, I hear that.
Good post again Malin.
I like that flyer, it may indeed seem a bit OTT, they are all points that really shouldn’t have to be made, but again sadly, for some these basic points of male common decency are completly alien.
It does indeed make crystal clear the restraints that are put on women.
Is it fair?
NO, ofcourse it’s not, it sucks. But until there comes a day when rape is completly eradicated, caution and precations (no matter how unfair it is) are the ladies best form of defence.
Catching up with these superbly articulate and thought-provoking series of posts. The guest blog by Malin was well-argued, passionate and educational, and the qualities of introspect and intelligence characterize all the responses.
A debate like this demonstrates how everyone — at least let us say most people — have within him or her a deep reservoir of humanity and compassion. I hope we all understand that immense possibility while acknowledging the atavistic remnants of predatory instincts which too permeate all human psyche though not affecting it as disastrously as it does in the case of violence.
I think embedded in this fascinating series of conversation there actually are multiple different debates: (a) the awful state of psychological subjugation and enforced inferiority that women continue to face everyday in societies, developed world or developing world (b) the flaws and deficiencies in legal system to be able to help and protect the victims, protect the society but also help the culprit if he/she is still within help — modern societies are excellent at #2, goodish at #1 and failures at #3 even though definitely improved since the pre-industrial times. (c) Football’s lack of willingness and seriousness to tackle the problem head-on and create uniform guidelines as put mechanisms in place to guarantee fairness.
Thanks Holic xx
I understand your perspective, abb. You’re still “THE special one” as far as I’m concerned.
Cheers, 8ball, H2H, and Baff, but all the props go to Malin and ‘Holic.
By the way, and on a lighter note, BLG got her first ever caution last weekend. It was indoor soccer so it was a blue card and she had to serve 3 mins in the naughty-box, but I was proud of her for standing up to a bully…now to teach her the art of subtlety.
Blue cards?
Soccer, eh. 😉 🙂
Dig in the ribs, Lonestar 😉
d’you think one of le grove’s
intellectual heavyweights
dropped by lately
to show us the error of our gooner ways
and wondered what the fuck was going
on
Lonestar, a very large drink on the bar for your @99 — and one for the management. Bringing up children in the U.S. is hugely challenging, given all the cultural and media pressure to which they are constantly subjected. Bringing up daughters doubly so. And I can’t even begin to imagine what the multiple is for bringing up an African-American son. It is easy to laugh at the notion of being arrested for walking while black until you see stop-and-frisk policing in action. I wish only for a safe, secure and untroubled upbringing for your son and daughter. It sounds as if their parents are doing everything in their power to see that it is. Good luck. But to bring this back to Malin’s post, if attitudes to acceptable behaviour by young men and women are to change for the better, it will have to be done one parent/family at a time, building towards a majority societal consensus backed by legal frameworks, much as what happened with attitudes towards the LBGT community in the US at least. It is slow going at the start but eventually happens very quickly.
Lonestar, just read your @114. Hmmm….
But I guess it is progress of some sort that the card was blue not pink.
cheers, lonestar, i’ll buy you a drink as well. you’re in a damn tough position, though from all our conversations you’re certainly equipped to give them the best advice they could hear.
adding your race to it, ESPECIALLY in the united states, makes your situation so much more tenuous, with respect to your kids. being white, i can’t imagine how you have to explain to your son how to behave “properly” in this society. you’re a good man, and i am sure your son will negotiate to the absolute best of his ability to embody your teachings. whether “outside forces” conspire to render that negotiation meaningless, that’s why we have these discussions, and larger ones in our communities (“i am michael brown”).
well done to blg (little thierry) for the caution, i hope she took the player down and stopped the bullying…
h2h, you say we don’t live in a world where we “teach men to not rape”. that’s categorically untrue. there are many, many people around the world that teach their children that rape is not acceptable, why, and how to not do it. my son, wife, and i have had many a long discussion as he has gotten older about just these things, often in the context of sexual politics. he’s nearly 17, and not only is aware of women’s right to say no, he knows not to hit them in anger, not to denigrate them, etc., just because he can (being male, stronger, etc.).
in my mind, the only way this is “fixable” is through education. if we spent money and time on explaining boundaries (where does one person’s will impinge on another’s rights?), and told boys that women are actually human beings rather than the chattel they’ve been consigned to be for the past few thousand years (in most societies), it’d be a couple of HUGE steps towards mostly eliminating things like rape, domestic violence, etc.
this is one video that gives me great, great hope for the future: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2OcKQ_mbiQ
so glad to be here with you all. you’re a top, top bunch.
just read ned’s 119. every word, ned, every word. the lgbt changes are definitely illustrative of the way it can go. let’s hope initiatives like “take back the night” and “SOAR” can act as catalysts for such a change as that.
scruz.
I don’t think you understood what I meant to say. (was probably my fault)
I meant that more in a “you can lead a horse to water” kind of way.
ah, sorry, yes, i misunderstood. my bad.
still, i think most non psycho- or socio-pathic horses will drink. there will always be those crazies who perform anti-equine acts, right? but they’re not the norm…thankfully.
“@Oskar I still believe that there’s a fundamental problem with your reasoning which is that you imply that, somehow, women are responsible for the actions of men” – Malin (#84)
I implied nothing of the sort, Malin, men’s actions will always be the responsibility of men, not women. But so long as women are the focus of most men’s desires – and I don’t see that changing any time soon – certain men will take every advantage offered by women to satisfy that desire.
As you yourself said in your article “Evans is not the first footballer to be convicted of a crime and I am fairly sure he won’t be the last.” Substitute ‘man’ for ‘footballer’ and ‘rape’ for ‘crime’ and there you have it. It will, inevitably, happen again so long as the opportunity presents. It behoves women NOT to provide that opportunity.
I’m sure we all wish it were otherwise, but trusting that would-be rapists high on their chosen stimulant can be taught to think like women about rape is wishful thinking, especially for the next possible victim.
Öskar
As for teaching men not to rape, that is done from birth in most societies. Even so there have always been, and I believe always will be, those men (and cases of women rapists have also been recorded) who will lose all control under the influence (or even NOT under the influence in some cases) and take any advantage offered.
Human nature isn’t always as ‘human’ as we’d like it to be.
Öskar
a difficult discussion
no doubt
but despite
eloquence beyond belief
the different perspectives voiced
are ones that ye knew
would gradually appear
over the course
everyone tiptoes to begin with
scrutinising the fuck out of each syllable
not wanting to appear
too much of one
or
not enough of the other
now
i understand it’s important discussions are had
but i think its in danger in this instance
of taking away from
what we doubtless all agree on
anyway
i’ll shut up
Lonestar, Ah, just want to hug your daughter and shake your hand, xx
cba, a faint smile is working it’s way across my mug and you put it there!
Malin, you are a holic, now. Welcome to our home.
Feel mighty lucky knowing the entire lot of you. ♥
aaaah
bugger off abb
never liked ye
😉
.
oh
and
howdy 🙂
hehe cba 🙂
have a lump of treacle scone
go on
just done
made by mine own
less than fair hands
delicious
but
the bit i’m eatin at the minute
ye could half sole and heel
yer boots with
🙂
*puts authentic blocks of toura-loura stodge on ‘hols bar for the punters*
Cheers, scg. Stonewall to the first state approving gay marriage (Massachusetts) took 35 years. From one state to 36 has taken just 10, which is a blink of the eye by the standards of such things. There are plenty of other examples where society has changed its social mores. Capital punishment would be one.
And on mine, too, cba. You keep us all on the straight and narrow.
Dexy’s Midnight Runners reference there, cba?
These people round here
Wear beaten-down eyes sunk in smoke-dried faces
They’re so resigned to what their fate is
But not us (no, never)
No, not us (no, never)
We are far too young and clever (remember)
Too-ra-loo-ra, too-ra-loo-rye, aye
And you’ll hum this tune forever
howdy ned
try a bit of scone
unfortunately i didnt consult
the wealth of legal eagles here
so
cramps and vomiting
lawsuits are mobilising
.
fuck em all
.
*circles the chuck wagons*
So many good posts…..!
Teachin’ yo’ kids : http://imgur.com/gallery/tRDzf
😀
Aww jeez
cant stand dexys
be it donkey jackets dungarees or frocks
always sounded a bit adenoidal
did kev
donkey jackets dungarees or frocks
🙂
sounds like a slim gaillard tune
howdy oskar 😉
or
professor longhair
🙂
.
and before i forget
whether you agree with them or not
i think some of oskars and baths posts
have been a masterclass
throwing language about
as well as i’ve ever read
.
anyhoo
eat the fuckin scone
.
miserable shites
.
its treacle
.
.
honestly
ungrateful feckin shower
Re: scruzgooner @98.
Devilish little comment, that one. 🙂
ned
“stop and frisk”
?
.
any recollection of these
internment without trial
diplock courts
stop and search
shoot to kill
emergency powers
.
if we’re talking weighty topics
mmmmm
.
i’d rather read about the arse against the blue half of manchester
just now
ATG. What do you know about Krystian Bielik? Is he the real deal?
cba@142:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City.
As for your list, I do. Weightier than your treacle scones, though?
bt8b@143:
Bielik looks to be a big unit who can weight a pass, on the basis of these YouTube clips. Seems to be playing first-team football in Poland already so wonder if he will go into our first-team squad or the U-21 or U-18 side.
http://youtu.be/dEYarDmdn6I
If we’re supposedly wanting to sign a defender, why are we “looking” and more to the point, why are our scouts working hard? If you want a quality defender you don’t need to scout them, you should know who they are, know how they’re playing, know their ability, their likely price etc.
If you really want to buy a defender, you know who you want (or at least you should) without needing to deploy scouts.
Unless, of course, you aren’t looking for a quality player for the first team and want someone like the midfielder we’ve just signed.
*sigh*
Comedy own goal from LANSbury in the Forest game.
*echo chamber*
Many thanks Scruz, Ned, H2H, 8ball, and others for the truly flattering sentiments on parenting. We can only do what you all are doing or have done…you just get on with it.
What a wonderful place you have created here, ‘Holic. This place is just wonderful…I’m spoilt for any other “blog.” This bar really is more than a blog.
Bring on the mercenaries.
BMBD
“Spoilt for any other blog.” Lonestar, you said it.
Ned,
Thanks for the Bielik clip. He has an imposing stature for a 17 year old as well as excellent agility on the ball so here’s hoping he is the real deal.
Sanogo is in the starting XI for Crystal Palace. Guaranteed to create chaos. Whether he can create as much chaos as Gervinho is anyone’s guess.
aaah ronnie 🙁
bt8b@149: and that his 17-year old body doesn’t get one of those injuries that seem to afflict our youngsters that they never really shake off.
Ned, Placing great importance on the signings of such young players certainly does invite that injury risk. On the other hand, I wouldn’t be so pessimistic as to say Bielik is the new Diaby. 😉
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/16/ched-evans-rape-victim-blamers
Thanks for that Esso.
Excellent article Esso.
For me it’s fairly straight forward. Trying to say that any woman who dares to dress in a provocative manner and has the audacity to have a few drinks is effectively “asking for it” is as crass as it can get.
Everyday we take risks. We assess those risks, make informed decisions and quite simply just get on with it. Sometimes we don’t get it right. Sometimes we will all wish we had the benefit of hindsight. Sometimes we will wake up and think, I shouldn’t have done that. None of that of course should mean that we are free to be attacked or abused at will. The world contains evil men and women. But that does not mean that any female that has too much to drink should expect the inevitable.
We all cross the road every day. Before we do we look left and right. We then cross when we decide it’s safe. One day you might get it slightly wrong. You might step out from the pavement and then notice that the car is a tad closer than you first thought. Does that clear mistake give the driver the right to speed up and run you over? Just because you are asking for it? Of course it doesn’t. That may seem a stupid analogy but the point is a simple one. An error of judgement does not entitle someone else to turn you into a victim. As the last paragraph of the article posted by Esso says, the time for excuses are at last running out.
great stuff, esso.
Great piece, and debate. Thank you Malin and all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>