A More Balanced View?
Sep 2nd, 2008 by 'holic
I’m somewhat humbled by the fact that posting a banner for the Samaritans at 00.01 has resulted in my second busiest day, and my second five figure audience in a day. Thanks for those who enjoyed it for what it was, and sorry if you were offended. Obviously it was better than my writing!
I thought it best not to post what I was thinking at just after midnight, because there was reaction a plenty, and most of it from the heart rather than the head. So what did I think of the day’s non-activity?
Well, to set it in context I should repeat that I felt we needed to add a commanding centre-half, and an experienced defensive midfielder to the squad. I was hoping for nothing more than strengthening in a couple of areas that Arsene Wenger himself had identified beforehand.
Now if we had signed either, or both, of those players that would not have been a guarantee of silverware this season, any more than the lack of additions to the squad necessarily means we face an uphill struggle in the coming months. I think it is fair to say though that much of the negative reaction today would not have appeared if at least one of those areas had been addressed.
Contrary to popular belief I can understand some of the knee-jerk reaction. Passionate people have watched the two Manchester clubs apparently splash big money in the hope of strengthening, while we have put our faith in a young group yet to convince at the highest level. Rather than engage in more mud-slinging let me try and explain a little better why I am not inclined to join in with the jettisoning of toys from my perambulator.
I come back to my original wish-list. A strong central defender to improve our defensive capabilities at set plays, and an experienced defensive midfielder to provide Cesc with protection and a platform to express himself fully. I don’t think I have seen anybody, on either side of the apparent divide that has opened up between Arsenal supporters, who would disagree with that?
Further I have argued that there are two other provisos that need to be met, and I don’t think these would be opposed either. Namely that targets have to be better than what we already have, and of course available.
So let’s look at who was available yesterday to fill the gaps I feel we have. Which strong central defenders, who are better than what we already have, changed clubs on deadline day? Well the best known was the veteran George McCartney who returned to Sunderland from West Ham. Yes, that’s as good as it got. Now if he was the best available I’m sure you will understand why I’m not too sorry we didn’t take action there.
Which left the field clear for the acquisition of the defensive midfielder that everybody has clamoured for. So who did we miss out on yesterday? Well there is the rub. If you go through the players with whom we had been linked you will find that not one of them changed clubs. Alonso, Barry, Cana, de Guzman, Inler. Not one.
If either Marouane Fellaini (Everton) or Ignacio Gonzales (Newcastle) set the Premiership alight then you can come back at me in a few months time and crow, ‘There you are , we missed out on them on deadline day’. For now I am frantically resisting the urge to scream ‘WHO?’
I’m anticipating someone venturing the name of Robinho very early in the comments. You have a point that he would have been a ‘nice-to-have’, but he is neither a central defender nor a defensive midfielder, and had we joined in the bidding for him over thirty million pounds would have been required on an area that is not identified as a priority by any of us.
So like us all I am nervous about the coming campaign, but this young group is gaining more experience all the time. Look at the one poor result so far and that could be laid at the door of our most experienced player. Is experience so very important this side of Christmas? A few good results could yield the confidence that will take us a long way in the autumn.
We perhaps needed that experience in the closing months of last season, when wins turned to draws, and occasionally draws to defeat. This group may just be better prepared as a result of having been through that. If that is not the case there is nothing we can do about it now.
January is the escape clause, the second window in which hopefully better players than McCartney, Fellaini, and Gonzales will be available to us. I have a feeling we will still be in contention when that window comes around, and on January 31st we can go through it all over again.
134 Responses to “A More Balanced View?”
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Ooh, a free drink? Don’t mind if I do!
I was very impressed by the ‘counselling service’ you offered to all and sundry, ‘holic.
Appiah, we could still sign him, but we won’t
finally.. a little more from the head.. we need more of this to bridge the ‘gap’ in the gunners as of now.. nice post..
‘Holic, I’ve been critical of your views in the past, but I have to hand it to you, this is a very sensible article. While I don’t agree with you re: the need for a new CB (our current crop of defenders has only conceded one goal in all competitions with Djourou looking like the big defender you are calling for) I am with most everyone else in thinking that we need(ed) a new DM.
I do think, however, that Song should be given the opportunity to prove his worth. In my mind, he is more in the Gilberto mold than the Flamini. AKA he is a good tackler, good positionally, a bit slow footed, and not much of an offensive threat. The problem is, and I know that Wenger recognizes this, is that we did so well last year with Flamini because he got forward every once in a while and scored some cracking goals (Everton away and Fulham? at home come to mind). He had a good work rate, chased people all over the field, and often covered the most ground during games. I’m afraid that Song won’t offer this. Denilson might get there one day but he’s too young at the moment, and Diaby has always looked too offensive.
Who would have been my ideal signing? Veloso.
The players we do have are exciting to watch. There’s good quality in the side. The ongoing injury crisis is a bother, though. I like Denilson, Diaby, Kolo, and Gallas, so I’m looking forward to seeing them all have a great season.
My only problem is that Wenger is a bare faced liar, making false promises to appease fans who needed to decide whether to renew season tickets etc, and then when under pressure, continue with more false promises. We pay the biggest ticket prices in the world at the emirates, so why can the club not make the neccessary investments with the fan’s money in the team? The fan’s basically provide the funds for Wenger’s 4 million pound salary and the man shows complete disdain and no respect to those that feed him Its a disgrace and with his mercurial position at the club, he does not need to take responsibility for his failure to compete with our rivals and deliver silverware. And before you call me a plastic fan, or go and support Chelski or the spuds, realise that I have supported the club for 30 years and love it more than clearly Wenger and the Board do!! They just love the riches it brings them. Wenger is using our club to create his experiment knowing that continual failure will not shift him from his position as the Board’s accountant come profit maker. People ask, who could we have instead, and there are numerous examples of managers who could be more successful and hungry than Wenger is now, As long as he rests comfortably on his laurels, the longer we will continue to be trophyless and lag behind the “bigger” clubs in the EPL!!
David – I really don’t think Wenger lied about his intentions in order to get people to renew their season tickets.
Firstly, it’s a bizarre conspiracy theory, secondly there are a good 50,000 or so people on the waiting list, and I’m sure there wouldn’t be any problem shifting your ticket.
Not that the current board will ever get rid of le prof, but if they did then they could do a lot worse than bring dein back and get a young manager in with some fire in him, someone like keane or hughes. Still it’ll never happen, uefa cup next season then?
We should go for Appiah. No transfer fee, experience etc. But we were only after Inler (okay we were after Yaya at the start of the summer), and Wenger was so sure of signing him that there was no backup. The rejection came as a surprise.
I think arsene went wrong the day he let edu go for the sake of giving him 40grand a week.
well u wouldnt wana warm beer would ya
Well put, Goonerholic.
David. You should read what you’ve written. You make yourself sound like a consumer rather than a fan. If i did not know you were talking about football it could be that you’re talking about a car you just bought. it’s just not the same thing (though my car does truly suck). This is not like buying stock and then expecting quarterly earnings reports. This is a football team. And we’re lucky enough to have one of the two best managers in Europe running ours. I remember how it was with Terry Neil et al. People loose perspective with time. This is still our golden era. yes, it’s frustrating we did not pick up a DM. I think (including AW) that was the intent. Ok, so we support the team we have not the one we wish for.
cry me a river david…what are u, 5 yrs old…wenger lied to us… tell me when it is written in a manger’s contract that he must tell the truth at all times..and in fact we never lied…some gunners fans just have a misunderstanding…wenger statement was that if he saw quality, we would buy…not that HE MUST BUY…grow up already, we have a great side that is more than capable of winning some trophies this yr…i bet you were one of those fans who taught that flamini was crap before last year, and now think is the greatest dm in the world
David, well said. I don’t know why people can’t see the points you have underlined concerning Wenger. Even if they think we are “false” supporters, the truth is what we are saying even supporters of other clubs can see that Arsenal seem to lack ambition. And Wenger is terribly stubborn. Wenger and his board care more about profit than trophies. We care about trophies. Peter H. said they don’t have to consider fans opinion when making decisions and that where this problem lies. Some of the people who are blindly supporting Wenger and the board HAVE LINKS WITH MEMBERS OF THE CURRENT BOARD. They are not Arsenal fans, they are Wenger’s and the board’s fans.
@ TIm re ‘Some of the people who are blindly supporting Wenger and the board HAVE LINKS WITH MEMBERS OF THE CURRENT BOARD’
is this another conspiracy theory?!
im a friend of wenger
I’m glad to see some balanced analysis about the situation that, I have to admit, I feel a little deflated by. However, I’d like to disagree, I don’t believe we need another CB, with Djourou and Silvestre we now have both talented and experienced cover across the back four. I’ve seen Arsene talking today about the merits of Eboue as a DM, which I’m not so excited by. I’m actually more worried by the lack of cover for Fabregas – without him in the first 2 games of the season, we were mundane. When he’s out, we’re flat and uninspired, none of the existing squad provide any cover. Now that Wenger is trying to recycle Eboue as a DM, who will he try to repurpose when Cesc is out…Rosicky (if/when fit)?
Can’t believe all negative stuff across the blogs. Saturday saw one of the best footballing performances from Arsenal for a long time and people want to slag Arsene.
Pffft.
After 45 years support I appreciate what is going on and it’s fantastic. Sit back and enjoy.
We could have spent 50 million and been on the bottom(not by. But AW thought he would leave that up to The Sp*ds.
Which makes the weekend even better.
Chill out.
you say arsenes a liar ,he is probably on the blower to hillwood saying david is a wanker …wat difference duz it make??
every player we buy is for the future,so pissed of waiting for these players to turn into the finished article,OH and then move on to sunny spain.Lets face it we’re a selling club and will be untll we take Dean and Usmanov on board.
usmanov is an old man,he could die in 5 years and have us 400 mill in debt,wat then?? were doing things the right way!
Damn, it’s relentless here.
One last drink before bedtime?
Forget about the BS comments regarding Robinho, he’s obviously going to be a huge failure in the PL. Yes there will be one or two moments of magic but a combination of hard tackling and Lancashire rain will do for him the pathetic little thumb-sucking child. Check this out for starters:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2008/09/the_big_question_left_by.html
As for the two required players – I have to say we only need one – in central midfield because the players we now have available to us just will not do the job … whereas central defense will be ok, probably. The first choice pair of Gallas and Toure should be amongst the top defensive units in the PL, and without the ACN to disrupt that partnership this season perhaps they will gel. The addition of Sivestre (however much it stinks) might just add the experience we need in there, and Djourou has always looked a better defender than Senderos and might well become the main man this season or next. In central midfield we do, at least, have a number of players to choose from, so we have the cover albeit inexperienced and injury-prone, but it is possible that Song will step up a la Flamini last season when nobody – and I mean NOBODY (including Arsene, or else he would have been tied to a contract) considered him as a top class central midfielder but he became one, and now he’s gone but wtf … if Song, Diaby or Denilson can reproduce such a transformation we’re going to have a damn good team this season. I doubt it will happen myself but it can happen.
I think we can do something in the CL this year but I fear the PL is out of reach, barring a very big dose of good luck, God knows we deserve it … Eduardo back to top form, Rosicky back – Vela, Nasri and Walcott doing the business – BRING IT ON BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don’t mind if I do Ollie.
(Did you see that bar-maid? Blimey!)
I’d be proud to have Usmanov running our club. He’s a true gentleman, with a strong track record of fine public service and excellent business acumen.
Mmmmm, my first drink in The Goonerholic.
A Canadian Club and Coke for me please.
Help yourself Ollie. A Ricard perhaps?
willo, I think there is an age divide in what is going on here. Those of us who have been going for decades and remember when we were pretty piss poor are probably likely to be more in favour of what we are trying to achieve today. I would much rather see the salary budget go into the pockets of young players who are being brought up in an Arsenal tradition, than to fund the lifestyle of some talented mecenaries who will dump us for the next highest payers at the drop of a hat, but that is an entirely different argument.
29Goonerholic
Not to say patronising and … boring.
I have to say that I believe. Arsenal play the best football, play in the right way, play to a pre-defined system, and I don’t really care who is doing the playing… Have some faith!!! Even the new moneybags at Eastlands are backed by ‘Investors’. In case you didn’t know investors want a return; they may go crazy at the start, but a return on investment is very important, just a matter of how long they are prepared to wait…
I think I deserve a drink on the house. Recompense for that intellectual property of mine 😉
If the Arsenal board lacked ambition we would still be at Highbury.
I dont really understand this Wenger lying accusation.All I heard him say was he would bring one or two players in if he could get the right players.
Do you suggest he should sign players he does`nt want just to appease a section of the fans.
Chelsea and Abramovitch have distorted the whole game and now there is a lemming like race to be first over the cliff.
Strange days have indeed found us.
Interesting point Goonerholic. I must admit at the ripe old age of 33 I am starting to feel a little ancient.
I think a few of us are letting personal feelings get involved here a bit too much. I happen to think that our central defence is capable enough, but I prefer a pairing of Djourou and Toure or Gallas, and not Gallas & Kolo together… that experiment seems a failure.
Secondly, I don’t think it’s tantrum throwing to express disappointment at a team failing to strengthen areas of need, or merely to replace players who have left. Having lost Flamini, Diarra and Gilberto this year, we have brought in only Ramsey as cover there, and he clearly is not ready. Denilson’s performances have been unconvincing at best (and at worst, i.e. Fulham, downright awful), Diaby based on past history of play and injury rate does not seem the answer. Does anyone else think that Gilberto would certainly be first choice DM at the moment? Because if so, letting him go without acquiring suitable replacement seems foolish.
(Pause to allow groans from those who never question the manager)
Third, just because a player did not move during the transfer window does not mean said player was unavailable. Alonso was certainly available for much of the summer, Cana as well. The issue is, if one team doesn’t meet the other’s valuation (or at least a sum enough to convince the other to part with the player), that team is under no real obligation to sell. I think that Arsene played it a but cute, made a last-minute bid, most likely for Alonso, and was rejected. Unfortunately, if this bid had been submitted during the preseason, it may very well have been successful.
As Holic has stated, this doesnt necessarily doom us to a mid-table finish, but I’m certainly not convinced the team as presently structured are bound for trophies. I hope I’m proven wrong.
Indeed KT, founder of the ‘drinks’. A kir royale?
Ben, another generalisation by me, I think, but not so very far off the mark despite that.
El Thommo, the intention is not to patronise, so apologies, but boring is a tribute. I’m fed up with people trying to excite by whipping up a storm where one should not exist, just for hits. I’m just offering the view of an old Gooner. We are a little less reactionary than the ‘Young Guns’.
`Holic spoken like a man who saw Ray Hankin and John Hawley.
@35 Brett
Expressing disappointment at a team failing to strengthen areas of need certainly isn’t tantrum throwing. While I don’t agree with all of your comments, they are made in a perfectly reasoned, reasonable and cogent manner.
However, this is in stark contrast to many other comments I’ve seen on this and other blogs which are of the “wenger lied, he is a c*nt, sack him, we are doomed unless we sell the club to the russians/arabs”, and definitely are of the tantrum throwing mould.
Your point about Gilberto is quite a telling one, and I’m pretty sure you’re right.
But it’s not all doom and gloom, and as 33 Gonko very rightly says “If the Arsenal board lacked ambition we would still be at Highbury.”
@36 Goonerholic,
I was born middle-aged, so you’re probably right.
The idea that these new owners are after a ROI is simplistic and uninformed. Football is the biggest sport in the world – the global reach of football is unequalled. The game has grown in popularity across the middle and far east exponentially in the past 10-15 years. It’s the perfect mechanism for investors to reach a global audience – club loyalty based on the British model will become rampant and these guys know, or their advisers do, but they are not that bothered if they make profit from the football side – look at Chelski – £700 mill in debt to Abramovich already and absolutely no way of the club ever clawing back that level of debt, not in the short-term, not in the long-term. The new owners at ManCity aren’t interested in turning a profit on the club at all – the know it’s impossible, and so do we. The real money, and it will be huge money down the line will be associating other products and services with the BRAND – if you have millions of people in SE Asia and the ME supporting Citeh because their owner is a bad-boy chucking his $$$$$$$$ about in Europe and slaying the old order (ManU, Liverpoll etc.) he will make bundles, that’s why it matters not one jot if these guys run a huge debt at the clubs they buy, they couldn’t care less because the ROI is huge, if their game works. The sad thing is most people are too narrow-minded to get it in the first place and therefore statements like that one (31Chris) prevail … and are so far wide of the mark it’s quite worrying for the future of the British clubs.
@40
I’m not sure I want Arsenal owned as either an oligarch’s plaything, or run by an investor who dictates the direction of the club on an off the pitch in order to maximise popularity in emerging markets.
Arsenal are a focal point for the community here (I live just off St Paul’s Road, and work at Highbury Corner, and feel a warm glow when walking past fellow Gooners), and are a North London club, not one that should be run to sell T-Shirts in Thailand.
sigh … age has nothing to do with how you feel – a sit happens i’m nearly 50 and I am seething! the boring bit is nothing to do with sensationalist Blogs (but I agree with you :)) it’s just pulling the ‘age’ card which to me is about as useful as the rantings of the “i’ve been a supporter since …” brigade. Hang on! …. I can hear it coming … a fan is a fan regardless of age location or whatever ….
I realise though that community is an old-fashioned notion and another example of why I must be a middle aged 33 😉
41Ben
Good for you mate, i lived in Kentish Town for years and years before moving out for work … my point there is that the game is changing radically evden if we don’t like it, and the very very wealthy owners attracted to buy are not going away – we better be aware of it, no?
what about the global village?
😉
anyway g’night – sleep well
A kir royale is just the ticket , ‘holic
Of course, there arealways fit and proper tests and money-launderng investigations. It would not surprise me if the whole lot came tumblng down in teh next few years. The level of spending is unsustainable at best and downright criminal at worst.
Arsenal are well out of it.
if their game works
I think people understand that argument El Tommo, and you may well be proved correct. It’s 50/50 I’d say if the amount of money these guys can pump into City will generate the kind of dominance that will change football as we know it. Down the years what we consider silly money has been thrown at the players by the Italians in the eighties, the Spanish in the nineties, and the English now.
Up until Abramovich however the provider was television, or in Real Madrid’s case banks who were too scared to call in their debts. Abramovich moved the goalposts, but his side has failed to achieve dominance for all the money he has lavished on them. I would argue there is no reason that City will be any different. They will be able to buy even more players than Chelsea, but still face the problem of only being able to play eleven of them at a time.
I’m happy to see both sides of that one, but I’m less pessimistic about the likely outcome than you.
@44
I wasn’t suggesting you were an advocate of selling sweatshop shirts in their country of manufacture 😉 I think your point was a valid one, as it is why some of the investors have moved in.
Yes, we certainly need to be aware of it. I may believe in local communities, but I don’t have a closed mind.
I do think though that we should resist it.
We need to find new and imaginative ways to resist it, though clubs owned by the fans aren’t such an appealing prospect after reading some comments on the blogs today!
@45 isn’t that a caff on the Holloway Road? 😉
@ Ben
I can’t go all doom and gloom, it’s just that, after an entire summer of seeing/hearing almost nothing but, it’s difficult to shake that mindset… I’m sure we all know the feeling.
While I’m optimistic about this season, it’s guarded. Personally, I felt very good about our chances going into last season, despite all the doomsayers preseason talk. But after seeing such poor performances against Fulham (and despite the win, Baggies as well), I’m left feeling that more competition for places might have motivated some of the players a bit more, especially in central midfield. What those matches also showed, to me, was that if, god forbid, Cesc is injured for any amount of time, we may very well be exposed. There isn’t anyone I trust to step in for him where I believe the team won’t suffer.
Finally, Citeh… does anyone outside of their supporters feel this is a beneficial situation? I’ve long been critical of foreign ownership (strange, as I’m not English myself), and I worry that this is the direction all of English football seems to be moving in. It’s only a matter of time until more people start calling for Our Spray-Tanned Former Director of Football and his Fat Uzbek ManU-Supporting Friend to come and rescue Arsenal. It’s bad business, this.
Well I’m off. Cheers all, and COME ON YOU GUNNERS!
I think a previous poster hit the nail on the head – “Terry Neill”. I go back further than that “BILLY fuckin WRIGHT”. A lot of the people here just cannot see a good thing for what it is. I’d love to see you try to have a conversation with Arsene and spout your bullshit to him. He’d have you all for breakfast. And as for “no ambition” – just take a proper look around you next time you step in the Grove. I cried when we left Highbury – it was a wonderful place. But we had to move on and that’s the kind of ruthless ambition the club has got. Mistakes are occasionally made, but this club is evolving slowly but surely into something big which will surprise you. The fact that some of you can’t gloat at the Chavs and the Spuds and Mancs like you did a few years ago is a shame but get over it. People were crying over Henry, Viera (and someone mentioned Edu) – but they’re all on the treatment table most of the time! They were given the boot when the boss was ready.
The only serious mistake Wenger has made was the Diarra/Flamini fiasco. He should have kept Diarra until Flamini re-signed.
So just wait and see how the season pans out. Thumb-sucking comfort-blanket transfers mean nothing. Just ask Citeh fans in a few months. Oh and does anyone remember West Ham hitting the transfer window jackpot a couple of seasons ago? And what happened?
Get behind the manager and the team.
To Berkamp. You are probably right, Wenger if reading this would call me a wanker, Unfortunately, he probably thinks that you are one as well for being sucked into believing in his lies in the first place!!!! You are a fool!!!!
and there was me thinking that we’d started to have a sensible discussion…
Good post ‘holic
“Sucked in to believing his lies”,
Grow up mate.
I think we should be careful of harping on about how many years we have been supporting the club and implying that it somehow adds more gravity to our opinions.
In the same way as AW doesn’t want to discourage his young players, fans of a mere 10 years or so can look at the modern day dealings without the jaded ‘seen it all before’ attitude and offer a fresh perspective.
Football is changing and AW has influenced the modern game in this country more than any other manager. He admits to conducting ‘an experiment’, but he has had little choice. The promised 30 million at his disposal now looks a paltry amount compared to the money available at citeh.
But just to argue against myself – it does appear that there have times when we could have upped the ante to sign a good player. Personally, I would be unhappy if we had offered 14 million as our best offer for Alonso when 16 million would have sealed the deal.
But why would AW suddenly buying in January after years of eschewing this?
+ start
oops.
@57 Rasputin
re “Personally, I would be unhappy if we had offered 14 million as our best offer for Alonso when 16 million would have sealed the deal.”
That was the figure in the Observer a week or so back, I think on the same page as a big interview with Cesc where he went goo-eyed at the idea of the two of them playing together. I must admit on reading it even I contemplated organising a whip-round at the next game – 30 quid each and we’d have bridged the gap. The Alonso Co-Operative Society!
You do need to draw a line somewhere though. There’s a house I’d quite like to live in, but it’s overpriced. I can afford the full price, but I think it’s overpriced. Sometimes I think ‘sod it why don’t I just shell out the cash’, but we all need to draw our own lines in the sand and stick to them.
@ David 7 and 53
You’ve insulted enough people don’t you think. First your ridiculous comment that season ticket holders only renew on the basis of summer additions to the team – what kind of team supporters are they? I suspect they don’t COME TO WATCH THE ARSENAL but to enjoy club level hospitality. Do you have a corporate box that you don’t think you’ll fill unless we’ve paid £100m for our team?
Secondly surely its no skin off Arsenes nose to buy players or not as the money was clearly available if he wanted it. He didn’t want it that much. He has a plan, his plan has let us enjoy watching the most wonderful football, better football than any other team in the land. ‘SUCKED INTO BELIEVING IN HIS LIES’ if thats how you feel its really sad, I hope you enjoy watching from behind the smoked glass.
You are the fool!!!!
Thanks Ben,
There is a difference in the house analogy. A player that ‘makes a difference’ could get you up a level in the CL or a place or two higher in the Prem thereby giving you a return and justifying the expenditure.
Excellent article. Like many fans I was disappointed that we didnt sneak in a deadline day signing but apart from the two big moves yesterday what really happened???
It seems that most clubs are holding onto their money and very few players are swapping hands for big amounts of money. All those fans out there screaming that Wenger has lied to them, need to grow up and realise that football is a business. Just like all businesses at the moment the best thing they can do is hold onto their money.
As someone earlier pointed out, did anyone move during the last days who could have come in and improved the areas we need improving? Felliani cost Everton alot of money but is he really an improvement on Song? Robinho is a great entertainer but I am willing to bet that come the end of the season Nasri will have out shone him.
We could have done with a big burly centre half but how many world class centre halfs moved this summer? How many world class defensive midfielders moved clubs? None that I can think of.
We may have “lost” Hleb and Flamini but we have gained Nasri and added Vela both of whom dont shirk away from the tackle. Ramsey looks a decent player. Denilson might have been a bit up and down so far but we should remember that he has captained his country at u21 level so he isnt a complete waste of space that some seem to suggest. Song can come in and play centre midfield and it wasnt that long ago he was named in the top 11 at the African Cup of Nations.
We may have missed out on Alonso during this window but I very much doubt his mood will have improved by the time the January window comes round so I am sure that we will be back in for him.
Nightcap please `holic. Not my normal one but a really expensive one.
Unless I get something ridiculously expensive I wont be able to sleep.
I`m already worried some people are drinking more expensive drinks than I am.
Unless you rectify the situation quickly I will demand a change of innkeeper.
G`night.
Good points Vivas,
Since the footballing world seems to be spiralling out of control it probably is a good time to keep you rhead down and take stock. FIFA and UEFA both appear to have agendas and are happty to let powerful clubs tap up players and break the rules in a variety of ways.
How hypocritical are manu over their dealings with Berbatoss after they had complained bitterly about the illegal approach for Ronaldo?
Now money is the key motivating factor for so many players, isn’t it refreshing to read the brilliant comments from Clichy and Fabregas lately (I can’t include Ade in this praise!)
Good points Vivas. I think much of the ‘despair’ has been whipped up by the press. After I’d been to the FC Twente game I listened to the end of the Liverpool v.Liege game on the radio. Liverpool only just scraped through their Champions League qualifiers, but the commentator was bigging up their chances in the league. Contrast this with the “Wenger’s experiment isn’t working” remarks that press commentators make whenever Arsenal don’t perform in a game…
It seems the press just want to knock people down for trying to be ‘clever’.
Rasputin – scary we’re starting our posts with the same phrase!
I agree my house analogy wasn’t 100%, but then a couple of years ago I had the opportunity to buy a competitor business. I had the money there too, but I felt that they wanted too much, and that I’d get a better return on the company’s money by investing in our own organic growth. Maybe akin to our youth development.
I too have been exceptionally heartened by the comments from Fabregas and Clichy. They show their quality as people as well as great players.
Just a suggestion. I heard that Everton have signed the brazilian Wagner Love from CSKA Moscow, but won`t see him until the end of the Russian season in January. Are we above such deals. Why can`t we sign someone on a pre-contract deal, if only to appease the fans.
re: Rasputin
The point about the number of years/decades some fans have spent supporting the club is not about adding gravity to their comments.
Instead, it’s about the fact that, having lived through many lean years of average football played by mostly (but not all) average players, fans who’ve been supporting the club for years/decades fully appreciate the ‘champagne’ football served up during the Wenger years, as well as the mainly high quality players that have turned out for the club.
That doesn’t mean that things are perfect, and that there isn’t room for improvement. But it does mean that such fans recognise a ‘modern golden age’ at Arsenal when they see it, and want it to last for as long as possible.
gonko, I have some twenty or thirty year old chateaux rouges laid down. Now it would cost you an arm and a leg to persuade me to open those…
Wagner Love? Is he real, or is this inspired by the Vaughn Williams and women doc on BBC2 at the moment?!
re: Ben,
Wagner Love is a brazilian footballer plying his trade in Russia.
He played against us in the Champions League a few years ago when CSKA Moscow were in our group. He didn’t catch my eye at the time, but Daniel Carvalho – a left footed forward/midfield player – certainly did. He’s brazilian too.
Magneto re 69
I seem to have touched a nerve? I don’t get your point.
I was saying that to dismiss a comment from a supporter on the grounds of longevity is not helpful and has been used as a put-down and a way of not addressing a valid point.
If you’re saying that fans who have suppported the club for many decades (and I’m one of them by the way) “want this golden age to last as long as possible”, then that is the same message I am hearing from the newer supporters too. Unfortunately the language chosen by some is bound to make the hackles rise and provoke a fatherly rebuke from some quarters.
The blogs today could do with more Wenger Love than Wagner Love (groan, late evening bad joke time).
Wagner Love is just such a great name though.
I´m really surprised of the lack of faith a lot of the ‘fans’ here have in Wenger. Was the state of the club any better than say spurs or Liverpool when he took over? How about Newcastle? They were top of the league back then. 10 years on and he´s built a new stadium while playing the best football in europe ( at least to watch ). So he didn´t buy anyone now, only proves that he´s not being held for ransom like the other clubs are with their sugardaddies..
I´m proud that Arsenal hasn´t sold its identity to highly leveraged American sports tycoons or oil-propelled billionaires. I certainly hope David Dein and his oligarch will never get control over the club. Wenger is completely right that it´s not only about the end result, it´s also about how you get there.
Or does anyone want to trade track records with Liverpool in the transfer market? Cisse, Bellamy, Crouch, Diouf etc… stop complaining and appreciate what we have – the best manager in the world
Heh, just noticed this…
63Vivas
Excellent article.
Then…
As someone earlier pointed out, did anyone move during the last days who could have come in and improved the areas we need improving?
That someone being ‘holic in the very excellent article you just read?
Halli
I agree with all your points.
The only thing I would say (and have said repeatedly of late) is that the difference this last few months has been in the rather ambiguous statements of intent that have emanated from the club and AW in particular.
I think that these ‘unrehearsed’ comments have been latched on to by the press and given significance in a way that was not intended Arsene. The result of this has been to raise expectation on the part of supporters and this ultimately has led to disappointment for those hoping for new signings. I think the pR side of things could have been handled better.
re: Rasputin,
We’re singing from the same hymn sheet! I must have misread one of your posts. No nerve touched though.
Nice try but your arguments have a couple of itsy-bitsy flaws: You assumed that the players who changed teams yesterday were the only ones who would have been available to Arsenal had any deals been struck or that the ones whom you read about were the only ones Arsene took an interest in or, for that matter, the ones who didn’t change clubs yesterday wouldn’t have done so irrespective of Arsenal’s interest. All you know is what you have read. For example, did you know anything of Bacary Sagna before he came to Arsenal or Adebayor, for that matter? The point is that we still don’t really know whom Arsene targeted ,whether that player would have been better than what we already have and whether that player would have moved at Arsene’s request. Heck, we still don’t know why he chose not to buy. Was it an issue of finances, quality or principle? Only Arsene and the board know. Choosing to buy or not was Arsene’s prerogative and one that, one way or another, will leave him open to be second-guessed if the team falls short again this season.
Ben
Sorry I missed your note 67. Well we must agree of we’re reading each other’s minds. Have a good night.
You did well in waiting before committing your feelings to cyberspace. Like good reds they are always more palatable if you let them breathe for a while.
The core issue is that so far there isn’t the confidence that we have replaced Flamini satisfactorily. That’s all it really comes down to. I can understand the sentiment but it is as yet unproven that we cannot replace him internally. And, as you show, when you wait and consider it objectively, the options to replace him externally are even less clear.
I’ll forgive you Rasputin. Night.
*Ben heads for another Manzanilla to toast our Spanish genius.*
@ peachesgooner. Its not the money my friend, its the principle. You seem to forget all the mixed messages we’ve been getting from Le Boss this summer. Of course we appreciate the job that Arsene has done at the Arsenal for the last 12 years and the success he has brought us, including the development of the Club during that time. In the late seventies and early eighties I stood on the North Bank in all weathers chearing our team on despite some of the worst football played at Highbury and There is no doubt that our club plays football on another Planet. But we are now expected to pay an incredible amount of money to watch our beloved club, and in many cases the true supporter cannot afford to go and watch us play in our plush new stadium. With that in mind, it seems a little unfair to hear that on one hand Wenger has to raise 24 million pounds by selling our best players every year for the next 17 yeas and on the other hand, Fizman assures us that Wenger has 30 million pounds to spend on any player of his choice!!! Which is the truth and which one is lying??? Thats what I mean by the fan being treated with utter contempt. I think it more sad that you turn my argument around instead of appreciating its true message. Ultimately sir, you are the fool!!! I feel sad for YOU.
Rasputin: I agree, it´s unfortunate to give the fans false hope
However I think his enthusiastic statements may simply have been overoptimistic, he probably had some things in the pipeline that didn´t go through. I don´t terribly mind him being enthusiastic or optimistic, I think we have a good squad. The thing is, everyone is locked in on thinking that the only way you can strengthen the squad is through buying. Buying players that have made a reputation for themselves elsewhere is one strategy but it´s not the only strategy and I´m confident that Wenger will turn Song into a brilliant partner for Cesc. I´m not sure about Diaby. My point: Wenger´s philosophy is about developing players not buying, and he´s doing a good job.
Furthermore when the other clubs have endless amount of cash to throw around it´s impossible to compete in the transfer market. I don´t think the Man City buyout will change a lot, because we weren´t competing in the transfer market anyway, not with Chelsea, Man U and Liverpool ( and now Man City ) at least.
Of our starting 11 all of Clichy, Sagna, Toure, Fabregas, Rosicky, Van Persie and Adebayor can be percieved as top ( or world ) class players – Rosicky possibly being the only high profile transfer.. so I´m not bothered with buying non-established names – who knows, maybe Bischoff will become the next big thing? My excitement when we bought Toure was about the same as when we bought him.
Let’s not confuse balanced with non-hysterical here. Arsene’s job is purely to win football matches and trophies. The notion that every player you are interested in buying has to be as good or better than what you have is daft. Was Denilson as good a any of our midfielders when bought? Is Ramsay as good as Fabregas or Diaby? Of course not. Adding depth to the squad is just that. You bring them in, blend them into your style of football and play them when your judgement tells you it is right whether that be through injuries or whatever. We haven’t bought anybody in and in my opinion we should have but that doesn’t make me disloyal or that I should go and support Chelsea. It simply means that I have seen the shortcomings for the past 3 years when we won zero and feel that we are doomed to repeat them and there seems no reason for this that I can work out. The notion of our brave squad battling against all those awful teams with money yet galvanised by Wenger’s faith in them is silly really. I think we have a great team but I also see that there is limited strength in depth and I guess we will have to prioritise competitions again. Another spanking by Spurs or Man Utd doesn’t fill me with joy either. You all have your own views but I have yet to hear a sensible argument to support the fact that we really should not have taken the chance to increase squad depth. And I don’t see us as little David slaying Goliath either. One thing is absolutely certain though and that is that results will be the judge despite what any of us might think.
Niether Fiszman or Wenger are lying. Wenger didn’t say we have to sell players to raise the money for the stadium. He said exactly the same as Fiszman in that we have to find some £20m a year. But as Fiszman said we raise an extra £50m a year from the stadium anyway so the £20m is covered.
The accounts are easily accessed from the clubs website. You should accept Fiszmans invitation to look at them rather than repeat the crap that is dished out in the tabloids. it just leads to lazy accusations of lying when with a little effort you could easily arm yourself with facts.
Here we can debate all we like the merits of buying players or not buying players. Clearly Arsene was not that keen to buy. He sees his players day in day out, we see them perform once/twice a week. Who do you think has the better knowledge of the depth of the squad and the ability of the group? The supporters or him?
Fizman said if arsene asked him for money for a player then he could have it – thats not the same as there being a pot of money to spend.
Arsene said if he saw a player that he thought would add quality to the group he would try to buy them.
Nobody lied. You’re just throwing your toys out the pram.
Halli:
I haven’t seen him play, but others have told me that Coquelin is very impressive in the midfield role. Apparently he’s not a ‘Flamini’ but is an ‘Arsenal type’ player and can add some invention to the midfield play. I know we probably need steel more than invention – we already get plenty of that from Fabregas et al. I guess we’ll never find out unless he can stay fit.
I did say earlier that I thought it was a good time to take stock as transfer fees are about to become even more ridiculous. It would have been nice to find another Sagna quality player for the DM role for around the 6 million mark but maybe that player doesn’t exist.
I get the impression that other clubs rate our quality of acquisitions so highly that any player we are interested in immediately becomes of a target for other clubs. Some say we even have to lay a smokescreen by faking interest in another player to deflect from our true target. Maybe our scouts are being followed? – only joking, that’s cospiracy theory gone too far
Rasputin:
Useful though when we manage to trick spurs into buying crap players like Zokora! 🙂
I understand that some here are disappointed that we didn´t get Alonso. But if he wasn´t available for the right money that´s the way it is. Might come back to haunt us if Cesc, Denilson and Nasri all get injured but you can say that about any squad.
What if Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo get injured?
What if Essien, Lampard and Joe Cole get injured?
Who cares, winning the league is down to luck to some extent, I´m sure we would have won last year if we hadn´t been freakishly unlucky with injuries – and traumatized by that Birmingham thug..
Fair play Halli, but as Michael says and you imply – it would have been nice to add a good DM, and in so doing we would have reduced the % by which luck and injuries could affect our chances!
I’m off to bed. It has been nice to have an inteligent debate with the likes of yourself, peachesgooner, Ben and Magneto etc. This is the best site for airing opinions – there are always going to be tossers, but they don’t last long on here as there are plenty of articulate respondents to put them in their place.
Night all
alright boys, what did I miss?
Morning Marvin. Remarkably few muppets around this evening, and nobody pretending to be anyone else!
Just checked back in before I hit the hay. Don’t stay up too late! See you around.
middle og the night here….i hate workin nights….lol….but just had to say fine article and PEACHES…..you should not try to *kill* other peoples opinion..bad habit and doesnt lead anywhere….
and Peaches even with youre view there should be a growing concern in the fact that Our Beloved Arsenal is beeing build down,and many of you will argue that we have the youth and talent,may just be the fact…but still there’s a bridge in time…before hopefully our talent will make a difference ..so leaving the team vulnerable like now ..is nothing more than a gamble..Wenger knows it …the fans know it…and it could easily backfire..lets hope not…
and there are no contradiction in beeing worried and still be as good of a fan as the next soul…..
I Love Arsenal…and not Wenger or the board…but then again i love all Our Players…a small advice to MR Wenger …the fans are not only kids..but adults…who may not appreciate beeing treated like kids…..after all what would Arsenal be without and i dare say the Best fans in the world…us
so lets agree to disagree…and still back Our Beloved arsenal..and when the going gets tuff….the Gooners will be there backing the only team that plays the game like it should be Arsenal( and heey just for fun ill throw in one other team that almost plays like us on a good day -…..Brazil…..
nite Gooners be well All 🙂
The analysis from the head not heart is a good start. The only counter argument is that, who says we could have only gone for players that had changed clubs? There are so many ‘quality’ (not start, mind you) players out there and quite frankly am sceptical Wenger could get 1 (or 2) if he wanted to. And we are talking about over 2 months during which to search, negotiate and negotiate more…
May be he did bump into quality players who in the end didn’t want change but still there are just many ‘unknown’ and perhaps more mature players out there at Denilson’s (or Diaby’s) level??
Many complimented how well the team played in the last two matches, and there’s truth to it. How about if Cesc were out? Still think we could have performed like we did in the last 2 games? The point is these ‘quality’ players (i’d simply say ‘solid’) would become important when (not if) injuries hit and Wenger has taken another scholar’s gamble/ ideal in hoping we ain’t going to be that unlucky like previous years — but we would with the same players!
Hello ‘Holic, any of youz ladies or gents still up?!! Great I guess I can help my self to some of the ‘keeps Chateau Lafite Rothschild (’82 Bordeau). I always knew ‘Holic was squirreling the overages (and unspent signing salaries) on the good stuff. Stop holding out, brother! 😉
Not sure if anyone can see what Wenger is doing from the perspective of the players he has. If I were one of the players and he tells me that I am good enough to compete with the Ronaldos and Robhinos of the world, and that there is no real need to buy to replace me, I will certainly go out and play my heart out just to meet his expectations. Many clubs have bought star players but star players bring headaches to the dressing room and off the pitch. What’s the point in having a David Beckhem in your team when he does is to bring discord, internationally or otherwise, into the team. Football is a team sport. I certainly believe the players we have now capable of beating the best in the world and with the proper and correct motivation, will turn into a solid squard playing for each other rather than for personal glory. this is the Arsenal squad I would like to see not one with the overprized oversex and oversized egos coming into the dressing room and disrupt the pure football we play. So for me, let the young ones express themselves and we should get behind them as real fans.
To anyone who thinks that the length of time a person giving his/her opinion on this or any other blog has supported Arsenal is immaterial, why then the panic over not having signed an experienced midfielder?
A several decades long supporter can bring his/her experience to bear when talking about Arsenal just as an experienced player can when playing for Arsenal.
On the other hand, an experienced supporter can talk rubbish, just as an experienced midfield player can play rubbish.
David, in posts 7, 53 and 83 you are the Nicky Butt of experienced supporters.
*sits in snaily’s special chair*
Oh no, there will be slime…
🙂
Is the 100th drink free?
Don’t be silly Ollie.
The 102nd is though. 😉
Very nicely done, as ever ‘holic.
” IN ARSENE WE TRUST” I can see this statement in most of the coments am ready. However I beg to differ, because this what will eventually bring us down completelly. How many more good players must we lose just because we are not ambitious enough? Arsene is the only manager in the league which has no pressure at all, even if we get relagated. In Arsene we trust.
I miss Paulie
Who’s been sleeping in my chair?
Sorry snaily. It was by the fire and just looked so comfortable
I think I’ll have a drink here hile aulaitaulait sort their shit out.
Coffee for me, please. Black.
‘+w’
Coffee?
Coffee?
Now let me see, I must have some somewhere….
Lime and Soda please ‘holic. Nothing more refreshing after a hard day’s slithering hither and thither.
I think snaily might have a thing for you, ‘holic
Abstinence……………
Every now and then this site seems to go ‘on the wagon’ in footballing terms – I thought people talked about footie all the time in the pub?
Seems like I’ll have to say something controversial to elicit a response…..here goes…….
I think AW lost us the CL final by taking off Fabregas and making a defensive substitution at a point in the game when it looked we could hit them on the break and get a second. After the substitution we defended too deep and paid the price.
I’m sure I remember Henry having a one on one with the goal keeper and bottling it after that!!!!!
I think the mindset of the team changed because they thought Arsene wanted to protect a 1 goal lead. We never play as well if we don’t have the freedom to attack.
. . . . . . . .and besides Fabregas was absolutely shattered, could hardly put one foot in front of the other so he had to come off. Who did Arsene put on in his place?
Who says Fab was shattered – he’d been playing 90 mins all season. Surely he’d have given his all in the CL final. He was still producing those telling passes that Henri thrived on.
Flamini was brought on and Reyes with 5 minutes to go
Actually, Hleb missed a great chance to put us two up – but we all know he hadn’t any bottle when it came to shooting (the weaner)
Nostalgia thats the key!!
We were down to 10 men and he’d run and run and run all night – it looked like Sols goal was gonna seal it for us. Who came on?
I do remember there were a couple of great openings, Henry had the one on one but wasn’t there another one aswell?
Sorry, you need to take your time Rasputin, you’re going much faster than me.
Ah Hleb, I remember him well.
Can’t agree, I had that terrible gut feeling from the substitution onwards that you get at Highbury/The emirates when the crowd goes quiet and collectively you know that we are about to concede. I witnessed it when Alex headed his goal to knock us out of the CL – you just know its coming….
All we needed was for Almunia to keep his legs closed and we’d have been home and dry.
No the momentum was with Barca – they’d have got their second or won on penalties. We missed our chance when we failed to go 2 up – we could have defended that, its always a gamble to try to protect a one goal lead. I don’t know the stats but I seem to remember bringing on Cygan and conceding goals. Cygan – another player who must have really impressed in training cos he was crap in games!
Its funny, we seem to have always had one player under Arsene who the fans didn’t rate but conitnued to get his support. A lot of people would list the Grimster amongst them, but I think he was great. A french version of Parlour, not overburdened with talent but got stuck in and did a job.
Yes, the collective sigh was often for when we were 1 goal up and Cygan stood on the touch-line waiting to defend our lead. It often went horribly wrong. But saying that it also often went wrong when Gilberto came on or dare I say even the mighty Senderos so perhaps Rasputin I’m conceding that you have a point – we don’t know how to play to defend a lead.
If Flam came on for Fab wasn’t that like for like? Did you just not want Fab to be taken off?
Can’t believe you think Flamini for Fab was like for like – must have been a typo – at that stage Flam hadn’t metamorphosed into the midfield destroyer of the following season although he did a magnificent job filling in at left back to get us that far. Also the penalty save by mad Jens was crucial.
@124 Was that a swipe at me over an earlier comment – another player who must have really impressed in training cos he was crap in games!
I do believe that Arsene knows the best that his players can perform having seen them in training – of course how they step up to the plate in a game is obviously a gamble. Do you think he is unrealistic about the quality of some of the players?
I asked if YOU thought it was like for like? Who would have brought on to replace Cescs legs?
All of us armchair managers have a player who gets regular games but we consider over-rated by the manager. The current target is obviously Eboue. I made myself very unpopular with fellow supporters last season by criticising Hleb (before any of us knew he wanted to leave) I thought he slowed down attacks, couldn’t tackle to save his life, overcomplicated the game and never passed the ball more than 20 yards (as well as the obvious allergy to having a shot at goal). So far, Nasri has been great; strong in all the areas that Hleb was weak, so I think we can see that change as a huge plus for this season.
@129 Rudolf Nureyev
Can’t stay chatting all night, check in again tomorrow x
Thanks for the footie chat peaches. Night night to all gooners………
Thanks peaches and Rasputin.
I will have something else posted at some stage of tomorrow so we can start a new comments thread.
G’night to you both.