A Huge Fortnight Ahead
Aug 18th, 2013 by 'holic
Well, I have slept on it, and then some. I cannot get out of my head something that I heard on a Tuesday Club podcast about witnessing if not the end, then the beginning of the end for the manager. We are further down that road after this summer.
Yesterday was the culmination of yet another window of obfuscation and under investment in the team. It is simply beyond belief that we go into a Champions League qualifier with a threadbare squad hit by further injuries yesterday. Add to that the suspension for Laurent Koscielny and it is not out of the question that we won’t have four defenders available for the trip to Fulham next week. The CEO has spent the summer putting the investment ball firmly in Arsene’s court. Yesterday the manager hinted at the responsibility of others to close deals.
“I’m there to buy players, if we find them we’ll do it. I’m not the only one working on that – it’s not my money, it’s the money of the club and we’re ready to spend it if we find the right players.”
So now we have the two key figures at the club clearly at odds with each other. This is not a situation that can endure. These two have to start working together for the club is far too important to too many people to suffer strangulation by egos.
Over-reaction? Heat of the moment stuff? Maybe, but that is why I slept on it rather than posting last night. The atmosphere at the Grove, so positive at the start, had turned poisonous long before the end. For the first time I can recall I left five minutes early, appalled at some of the stuff I was hearing. Calm returned as the post mortem took place afterwards. Most of the talk was of injuries, suspensions, and new signings.
I say most. The referee was also a topic of conversation. I am loathe to criticise when we have lost because it looks like sour grapes. However so astonishing was Mr Taylor’s performance that I hope it was down just to utter incompetence. I should leave it there. It is not an excuse.
Those coming here to find any positives will draw comfort from the fact that Olivier Giroud maintained his pre-season scoring form. Other than that there was little encouragement to be found. At the end of the day it was one defeat, and that in itself is something we can recover from. To do so though we will require a squad of sufficient size and quality to get us through nine long hard months. By the admission of the manager before this match we don’t have that.
It’s a huge fortnight ahead.
555 Responses to “A Huge Fortnight Ahead”
Boom.
Sad times :(.
Spot on.
Undoubtedly, the wrong word for the circumstances and the sentiments of the post, sorry – it’s posting without reading. Apologies and promise better next time Mr ‘H.
Got me again !
Those barest bones of a description of an all round shameful day just about right.
Cheers, ‘holic!
Agree every word you sad, Holic.
I see many fans jumping on the other side of the fence and sadly they have every right for it this time.
For all the love and support I feel for Arsene there are no excuses for this mess we are in. I am not even sure that spending 100 million and bringing 4-5 players could solve this situation.
Because we can’t add new players to the CL squad and I just cannot see this side with so many injuries, kicking out Fenerbahce. If we lose against them, Arsene is gone. Not good, not good at all.
Wenger admitted we needed signings? Yet only 2 weeks ago didn’t he say ‘this squad can challenge without signings’?
He’s so confused he’s contradicting himself. Didn’t see the match but reading about how it was ‘managed’ was pretty unedifying stuff. Sad to see what this once great man is becoming (or has already become?).
The only way he would spend that hypothetical £100m is if he had £105m worth of talent to sell, Lurky
But don’t you get the feeling holic of de ja vu. That we have been down this road before. That the lessons of 2011 haven’t been learned.
In previous drinks I stated the Sept 2nd deadline would count for little should we be significantly out of the title race and out of the champions league. We now have the added concern that any top class player watching that would surely want assurances that we intended to add more than just their signature to the squad.
I said at the beginning of summer that perhaps we had been out of the market as a buyer for too long and that we would struggle to maybe get big deals done.
It’s interesting that both Shitty and Spuds have employed football directors (Tixi and Baldini) both of who, have many contacts in the game and are well thought of. It would appear that this has enabled them to get their business done in a proficient and professional manner.
To run a billion dollar business in the manner it has been run in the past three seasons is nothing short of disgraceful. In any other private sector business those responsible would be held to account. Instead we are talking of a renewal of the managers contract and increased compensation for senior executives.
Several of us have been arguing for years that the structure and management at the club need changing. Hiw will anything ever change though if those at the top reward themselves for failure and there seems no one able to bring the manager to task?
We’ve officially turned into Royal Bank of Scotland under Fred Goodwin.
Very measured Holic…nice to share a guinness yesterday.
Why we haven’t bought anyone is beyond me…good
luck to all the fans going to turkey…you deserve
a better run football club. It is interesting that Ivan
has gone quiet after promising us big signings in may…
We have a manger who is reluctant to spend and a negotiating team whose background is in licensing players in the MLS who earn $100k a year. They are out of their depth, utterly and completely. It’s like expecting a bloke who runs a corner shop to take over Tesco.
NB1, yes, it really is ‘deja vu all over again’. You say 2011, I’d say many more of the past 8 seasons can be included here.
How many times in nearly a decade have we been ‘1 or 2’ decent signings from a serious title challenge? Signings we could realistically have made? Well now, thanks to all those years when we tried to muddle through, we look to be half a team away from winning anything.
….meanwhile we’ve been schooled by Liverpool in how to hang on to a key player!
Makes the RVP sale look even more ridiculous, but then who can blame him? He was close to AW for years and saw where that was taking the team.
A question: would you trade dropping four or five points in our next two league games for qualifying past Fener?
Based on the Udinese experience and our current injury list I suspect we may need to prioritise one competition over the other.
Any news on the status of the injured? I hear Bac may be OK.
Hmmm, you make it sound like we could actually have that much of a say in the number of points we get in the next two games. Fulham – draw at best, Spuds – a point would be miraculous.
FUCK RVP!!!
FUCK RVP! And I don’t mean have sex with him, well maybe with a rusted spoon through his ass!
Agreed Cent, I was just making the point that these players who ‘could have stayed and built something at Arsenal’ probably had a clearer view of what we’re seeing now.
Anyway, that’s water under the bridge.
Utterly pathetic. Wiser words then mine are spot on in regards to our team and the circumstances we find ourselves in.
The pedigree of the supporters acknowledging how bad off we are is scary and telling. Not going to Turkey but I will find a feed.
Thank you for the measured post ‘holic, til Turkey.
Really struggling to see any logic behind what’s been going on this summer. The only thing I agree with regarding Wenger’s post-match interview is that the team he put out should’ve been strong enough to beat Villa. However, the lack of back up due to injuries and suspensions, which at some stage every team must deal with, should’ve been obvious even before this game. So, when Gibbs and Ox had to go off, and now one suspension to deal with to boot, it seemed like destiny wanting to teach AW a hard lesson. Whether he takes note and is willing to take responsibility and change his stubborn ways, is another thing.
As always, ‘holic’, the tone and essence captured perfectly in your blog. Fenerbahce managed to squander a two goal lead against newly promoted Konyaspor in the last twenty minutes last night. Unfortunately, even that doesn’t make me feel any better about Wednesday night and offers no consolation for the mess that our manager and board have brought upon our club. Radical measures required but from where/whom?
many things went wrong yesterday but we’ ve got only ourselves to blame.right now i would prefer to leave this season go down the drain than seeing wenger& gazidis panic buying.we certainly need a fresh start for next season with a new manager and new faces at the board that can at least ensure they will try the best to create a competitive team that can make the fans of this great team proud again.as for this season let’ s get behind the team but also make our opinion clear:1)let wenger go out of respect for what he’s done for the club.2)new motivated people are needed for the board.AFv
I couldn’t watch the game live yesterday. tried everything to avoid updates, including turning my telephoe on to Flight Mode, yet so well known around these parts is my love for Arsenal meant that all my efforts were in vain.
“What the hell happened?”, “I bet your pissed?”, and “Do you think it’s time for AW to go?” were among the questions I heard inbetween the offerings of condolances.
Turning my telephone back on confirmed the worse, telling me tales of woe about how our season kick off had turned into a disaster, it did not make for good reading.
What started off for me as a pleasant drinky in the village where my previous bar was located, ended up as a drowning of sorrows binge. (otherwise it would have been a victory binge, don’t really need an excuse, me. 😉 ) I didn’t get back untill around 3am, so I didn’t watch the recorded game.
I couldn’t bring myself to watch it today yet either, so I can’t make any kind of comment towards that, but the result throws up many thoughts and not many are positive. I’ll hold my peace for a bit, need to do a backdrink and get a little more info on the game before I allow myself to vent.
Cheers ‘holic. The refereeing was quite incredible. I sincerely hope who was doing the Arsenal adjudication, marked and commented the performance as truly awful. Had such a performance occurred at Old Trafford, even now, with Ferguson gone, you can bet the media would be full on bleating about it and matey boy would be down in the Championship next Saturday.
Having said that, like you, I don’t believe its fundamental to our current plight, and believe me I don’t use words like plight in relation to AFC lightly. Last time would be shortly before GG departed.
The club is currently directionless. Someone needs to step in, bang some heads together and show real leadership. But who? Again never thought I’d say it, after his previous snide behaviour, but DD would really be that man for me. Fat chance.
I really think we’ve got some more days of suffering to go through yet. Still – bring it on! I’ll still be an Arsenal supporter whatever.
Well done Guv; restrained stuff. I anticipate much pain from keeping fingers crossed until September 2.
A big fortnight indeed, Holic. I’m looking forward to my season opener at Fulham, will stay over for the Fenerbace game. The second “penalty” (which near continual replays on NBC Sports showed quite clearly to be a superb tackle) and the subsequent sending off of Kos turned the game completely. It was a home win all the way until then.
Golf time. Hope to see some at the usual place per-Fenerbace.
One game at a time and a siege mentality required.
buying a few players would be nice but probably wont happen till Fener out of the way (or we are)
Take it one game at a time.
Team for Fener?
SCSZ
Bac—Per—Ramsey/?—-Carl
Jack—Santi—Frimpomg/Ramsey?
Poldi—-Giroud—Walcott
@15 To answer your question, no. We don’t need the CL money as we are loaded and we won’t win the CL, we don’t have a squad at the moment that can cope with four competitions purely in numbers terms let alone quality and despite getting fourth and treating it in almost delirious fashion at the back end of the season, the CL is a distraction we really don’t need.
I’d rather beat Fulham on Saturday and The Shit in a couple of weeks than get through against Fener. I mean I hope we do beat them hollow obviously, but if you want me to choose I’d take the points.
Another little thing as well. After taking the domestic cups more seriously in the last couple of years, I doubt we even have the squad to play half a first team in the COC at the moment, and we’ll be back to playing the kids in that one. The FA Cup will take care of itself, there’s another transfer window to go through before that.
inexcusable and shameful that the people running AFC has witnessed people leaving in droves before the final whistle on the very first day of the premiership.
they have lost the faith of the loyal supporters completely. every mistake is going to add further misery for the manager.
why dont we have specialists in every position, why do we play players out of position. why do we send out players before they are adequately replaced. why do we have the future of our club lying in the hands of an inexperienced young player.
its mind boggling how this club is being run at the moment.
Are we really looking at Ramsey in central defence??
From a joke to a farce via a complete travesty.
LOL check out the subs pictures
http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/motd.jpg
Why Ramsey in central defence against Fenerbahce? Surely Koscielny is available? Even bitey boy from Uruguay would be available for that match, wouldn’t he?
From the Previous Drinks:
Lars @ 77, haha Strongbow is my usual port of call when it comes to Cider, I only got a Kopparberg because my mate ordered one before me and nothing else particularly tickled my fancy 😛
With regards to your #92, well I’m still only young… :$
I’ll read the post & comment about the match later (at work now!), I backdrinked/drunk(?) valiantly but missed the cut-off to post in the last drinks by about 3 minutes, damn you Holic! (sic) :p
I can’t believe this drama has been going on for 9yrs. If somebody should have approach me in d summer of 2005 after we lift the FA cup n whispered to me that “this is going to be ur last for the next decade” I would have been in prison now doing time for man slaughter. But this is the reality now. Wenger has turned from the legend he was to a mediocre. He looks like a sinking man dragging us down with him.
Please, when do signing players become as hard as rocket science. It seems easy to sell our player but a herculean task to buy. Look at the way we offloaded over 20 players this summer but we are only able to bring in a 20yr old, inexperience, injury prone, french player from league 2. The reason why Wenger is blabbing about not getting the right players is because there was no one from a relegated team like Podolski n Park to sign.
Where was he when Paulinho, Falcao, Cavani, Fernandinho, Benard, Gustavo, Gotze, Alcantara, Soldado, Higuain, Negredo, Navas, Isco, Tevez,
Etc were available. He can not also tell us that Fabregas, Cabaye, Tiote, William, Willian, Felliani, Rooney, Lewandoski, Baines, Bender etc are not quality players or are not going to be sold at d right price.
A measured response to a massive problem that has been festering for years now. The comments of IG in June meant that the events of yesterday just brought all of this to one massive head. The lack of investment over several years has meant that the minor service that was required has now manifested into the need for a complete overhaul. In my humble opinion we have suffered mismanagement for years. Only now are we paying the full price.
This close season was full of promise. Ivan saw to it that expectation levels were sky high. Why?
How did we fuck up the Higuain deal? He should have been an arsenal player months ago. Who in their right mind decided that Suarez was the better option???? Ludicrous. I just don’t understand what goes on anymore.
I faked in the previous drinks but no one had an answer so I will try again. What the fuck does Stan want from us? Why is he involved with Arsenal????? For me, that is the root of the problem. The rest is just one mass of incompetence. The club is run like a Gareth Bale tea party.
So, where do we go from here? Not honestly sure I have any answers left. Personally I would go to Dortmund and offer them 80 million for Lewandoski and Gundogan. Massively overpriced but we are beyond any sensible negotiation period. Perhaps promising the managers job to Klopp next season might just seal the deal. Now that is something I never ever envisaged saying. Never. Then perhaps a change of owner and board. Then, and only then we might get our Arsenal back.
Very worrying times for me. I fear for Weds which is now a must not lose game.
Asked in the previous drinks even…
Very measured post. And this is news to me but Frimpong is there in our squad and yet Coquelin who performed admirably when called upon last season is not?
@28 Laurent can play this match. But Poldi will as usual start from the bench for some unknown reason and Giroud will start the game get himself knackered and again start the next league game against Fulham because Arsene seems to have little faith in Poldi. Was stunned that he was brought on with only seconds remaining for the game to complete against Villa.
@35 The list of players are all super super quality but their prices are all above 25 mn at least. Of that list perhaps Cabaye,Tiote,Fellaini,Rooney will leave this summer transfer window.Lewandoski has his heart set upon Bayern.Willian seems to be clost to L’pool.Baines and Bender will not leave.Only Tevez though in hindsight would have been a terrific buy if we had tried for him. Frankly any signing (please God there be some) will look completely reactionary and chaotic. Utterly rubbish planning from the management this summer and . AW pointing fingers at Gazidis at the lack of signings is very surprising and disappointing.
Just win, baby.
bmbd
@ 33 Pangloss
my bad, Kos in CB indeed
Am still fried from last night
@36 Gundogan is worth just as much as Gotze but sadly he’s not the type of player we need right now. We need a DMF and Gundogan’s a Wilshere type of player and first of all Dortmund are Champs Leagure runners up . Why would they even consider selling him this close to the transfer window end and would he even join us that we are so precariously placed ?
Dortmund are the team that we need to emulate in the transfer window.They replace their star players so quickly and so efficiently. Kagawa and went and they got in Reus, Gotze left and they’ve got the Kharkiv player Mkhitaryan who I admit I’ve never seen play but looks like he’s quality and will prove himself and adequate replacement. Their new forward got a hat trick in his debut game. Very depressing.
Looking at the Spuds team makes me sick.This might be the season where they finish above us. Quality loaded throughout their squad that even if Bale left they’re covered.
CMDrunk, regardless of what happens before TDD I’ll be VERY surprised indeed if the spuds don’t finish above us.
The dressing room most likely resembles forum boards and comments sections across the country – most of them even went public with the call for reinforcements and the club has shown them precisely what they think about that ludicrous idea.
Wenger can’t even keep his players on a leash, he could be pretty close to losing their respect outright when everyone with eyes and half a brain knows the squad is Donald Ducked for weds.
Succinctly summarised and striking a very sensible tone ,which given the anger and emotion we all feel is very difficult. I take absolutely no satisfaction from suggesting the pathetic recruitment efforts might result in a season wiped out effectively,almost before it began.
I suggested yesterday that David Dein ‘s contribution to the Wenger legend is much greater than people estimate. The more I consider the mess we have made of the close season again the more I believe it to be right that Wenger needs Dein like Clough needed Taylor.
Ok Dein has links with Usmanov, but before that he introduced zkroenke to the Board because he believed we needed major investment. He lined his pockets quite lavishly but only because he had helped build Arsenal into one of the most exciting football clubs in the world. We agent come close to replacing him. He agitated for Rioch’s removal simply because on top of upsetting Ian Wright he was procrastinating all over Europe on deals . Rioch was insisting that we went after Alan Shearer who was never a viable option for us to buy. We wasted a complete close season faffing around.Sound familiar?
What now needs to be decided is what does the ordinary fan do about it. Thierry and Pangloss differed on this yesterday and I had sympathy with both their arguments. I eschew anything that will harm this great club and hate the idea of destabilising the already fragile morale of the team. I will never boo a player or the team but something needs to be done.
I think something very symbolic needs to be done. How I wish I had not bought the new away strip. If everyone boycotted that kit release it would send the only message this board listens to– a withholding of money .
I have collected every Arsenal programme for forty years ( even though I hardly read them nowadays) but I would be prepared to join a mass boycott of programme sales if this could be effectively organised. If every disgruntled fan wrote to Gazidis- write rather than email which can easily be deleted that would also be effective. But I fear we may pay the price of having an absentee owner based in zcolorado. The clamour is much quieter over there.
On a more specific note,Kos is not suspended for Wednesday so we have a chance to buy someone before we play at Fulham. We can’t add to the squad declared for this game to UEFA a few days ago,but if we do qualify
we can submit a new squad for the Group stage,should we have purchased anyone ( Flamini?) by then .
God knows the damage this schemozzle is doing to Gooner health around the globe. I think a Zen state if obtainable is the one to aspire to.
Well written ‘holic.
Wenger has been managing Arsenal for my whole adult life. And it really pains me to see what’s going on at the moment.
I would have loved for him to have a year or two with no financial restraints where he could focus on what he’s really here to do – to win titles and bring joy to all fans and people at the club.
I really feel that he deserves that. He gave us some fantastic seasons and then steered us through the years when we didn’t have the finances to compete. Top 4 is not a trophy but it was sometimes more than we really could ask for.
I had such high hopes for this summer. And I would’ve loved for Wenger to enjoy some success again before gracefully bowing out.
But somewhere along the line I think he lost sight of what’s important. And I struggle to see how he’ll be able to find his way again. I think it’s time for him to leave.
Non starters for Cuntski
Schwarzer; Azpilicueta Luiz Essien Bertrand; Van Ginkel; Schurrle Mata Moses; Ba Lukaku
Compare this to what our bench will look like on Wednesday.
Was just about to post Chelski’s bench for today’s game. Unbelievable.They really are the favorites to win the league.
Lurky, that staggering observation speaks volumes.
I, too, wish I had not purchased the new away kit. Not for any principled message to the tone-deaf club, but because of its shoddy construction. I wore it for the first time on Wednesday, and the numbers are beginning to peel off.
Sigh.
bmbd
Well well well just like I predicted we in really in some shit now. I love this club and will definitely keep supporting it. I just don’t understand why people are still supporting wether, this guy has lost the plot. We should just start hunting for a new coach as from next season. He has carried this club to the best he can it’s time to move on. I can’t see any changes to the mentality of this time as long as he is there.
Most extraordinary. Just have seen the ‘ highlights’ . Holic, we will be sending our lads to fight battle (again) without proper backup on Wednesday. Don’t mean to offend anyone here, but it reminds me of what my government did to our lads serving in Vietnam. Screwed them big time. Just as incredulous as you and everyone else. Defies logic. Anyway, very relieved Bac is able to move all four. Some terrific posts by you holics. Delia, your eyewitness account was first rate.
Holic
Restrained and accurate piece.
In the cyber world of overreaction vitriol and pseudo-intelligence you again show class. I salute you sir. Best bar in town – by a mile.
Not sure bowever that AW and IG are in conflict. Not sure AW is so money spending averse as hes made out to be. AFC spent a lot of money in the last coupme windows. Surely we need more players for the long season, cuos and tournaments. I dont think were as spendthrift as the weight of opinion goes. Maybe a world class poacher, DM, and a keeper who actually keeps.
My beef with AW is tactics. Laundrup said it best: AFC is easy to play against. 4 or 5 seasons now at least its the same nonsense.
OG got a goal in the counter attack. Counterattack. Not the ticka takka light that AW is in love with. We simply lack the quality for Barca-style possession football.
Id also add TR7 – he had a fune game and denied a brace only by fine feeping and the post.
A round on me, if you please.
And i AM gonna buy the away kit. This weekend result be damned.
After the 2011-2012 summer fiascos how many of us have thought we will see that happen ever again? We are close to a very similar state despite no high profile departures.
Some uncanny similarities as well, Koscielny receiving red in the fir league match, going into CL qualifiers with a very thin squad. Bac would probably end up playing left back, Jenk right, we will probably fly Bellerin and Hayden as defensive covers. Iggy, Nico, Meade are all gone , maybe we could have waited to load Iggy out until someone comes in.
This is the part that bother me most. What is the hurry in loaning out players who can fill in emergencies before we actually get in new players? Which top level club does that kind of gambling? Coquelin-Djourou-Miquel in the subs bench — Coq even filling in for Arteta in the starting line-up — would surely give us more solidity. If the ‘top’ targets arrive only at the very end, so be it, carry those players for half a season and then loan them out.
With all due respect to Arsene — and coming from a long time Wenger admirer — starting a season with that thin a squad in the defensive side is so bizarre and inexplicable I just don’t know to what I can attribute such a state of affair. The management can surely be that stupid/disorganized/unprepared, right?
@ Steve T,
I’ve mentioned before that I think we are a great asset in Kroenke portfolio. An asset that has close to quarter billion dollars in cash is a very attractive proposition. Add to that they know they make CL, hike prices and no direct invest in the team and it’s a win win.
The message for me from day one was clear. Maintain the status quo on the pitch whilst grow the cash balance and increase the value of their investment with little or no risk. Happy days.
‘…first match …’ and ‘…loan…’ , of course . 🙂
And all you Lampard critics … Yes Chelsea is going to be a monster this season.
Homer @ 50: All the three goals against Man City in the friendly were from superb counter-attacks. I don’t think we are averse to play counter attack at all. The problem with teams like Villa coming to Emirates is that they start the game too defensively and would never come out in numbers for us to allow counter attacks. Then you need some other form of incisive playing and defense-splitting passes — these are the areas where we lack a little bit.
That is why look out for the new lofted ball from Aaron for Theo’s runs: it is the repeat of the very effective Song-RVP formula. The problem is also lack of physically powerful dribblers, that is why Ox being tried so much in the attacking midfield. Santi and TR7 are wonderful players with great skills, and TR7 very direct when need be, but they both lack a bit of physicality to stave off too many challenges.
If the replacements are sorted out soon, and TR7 stays fit, I still have hopes of a good run this season.
Rosski (TM Japanese commentator) was also denied a goal by skying his easiest chance miles into the crowd when clean through. As well as he played it was a dreadful miss.
Holic,
Posted yesterday for the first time in a couple of Seasons. What a difference of attitude now than back only 2 years ago from people posting. God forbid anyone ever criticized Wenger back then. I remember getting posts deleted by you for saying some home truths.
I love the way you support the Club but I do feel your blog will go the way of Wenger unless you start telling it as it is, as opposed to sitting on the fence so you can remain in the Club’s good books and being asked to guest spot on .com’s “Talking Heads”.
The writing is on the wall, even Arseblog is asking the question “Is Arsene Wenger the right man for the Job anymore?”.
I’d suggest you be more transparent and honest in your writing/reporting otherwise you’ll just be another old AKB with a blog that doesn’t know shit from shinola.
Cynic @ 56: Yeah, it was an awful miss. He generally hits the targets from all sorts of distances and angles.
Thank you for telling me what my opinion should be, Bernard.
Bernard, did you read the post?
‘Holic, is it really abb @54? If so, that is a poor sense of timing and place from you abb, otherwise such a fine contributor.
It’s been over 24-hours now and I still can’t find an explanation for the referee’s performance, I’m really trying hard to put it down to him been incompetent but it just doesn’t seem so, to me anyway.
Holic,
I’m not here to offend but I do remember very clearly the elitist arrogance displayed on this Blog. As I said, getting posts deleted for little or no reason. As Bob Marley once sang “You can fool some people sometimes, but you can’t fool all the people all the time”.
28 months ago, May 2011 at Fulham. Some Arsenal fans saw the light with the infamous singing of “SSFM”. Again, Wenger’s arrogance knew better.
He’s paying for it now.
Dr Faustus, in order to respond to you directly, please give me some more feedback, on your concerns.
Bernard, as well you know, the only posters deleted here are those that abuse Arsenal people.
Have you even read what is written above?
Cent @ 62: What makes a referee perform so poorly is actually a very problematic question. It can sometimes stem from an unconscious bias, sometimes over enthusiasm to appear neutral (this often perils younger referees who want to prove they are now cowered by bigger teams or stadiums), sometimes just pure incompetence.
Yesterday’s refereeing did seem like someone with a predetermined policy in his mind about how to conduct the game instead of refereeing the situations as they unfold.
More than the penalty decisions, the strangest ones were the lack of advantage allowed to every single Arsenal move. That actually demonstrates a truly incompetent referee as he is evidently lagging behind the game significantly.
In other words, he was more occupied with appearing to be on-the-correct and neutral than actually following the game clearly and making decisions on their own merits.
One of the worst performances I have seen in a while in EPL.
I too have slept on things. Was there as usual yesterday and I have to say I have never seen such an abject refereeing performance in my life.
Any challenge from us was penalised and they were allowed to stop us playing with professional fouls throughout. He was totally inconsistent both in awarding fouls and in dishing out yellow cards. It looked very suspicious. We were simply not allowed to play. Something odd went on with Anthony Taylor. Arsene is not bleating.
We looked really good in the first twenty (with the Ox looking like he is going to add another dimension this season). We were simply not allowed to play after that. Do not forget we beat City easily a week ago.
There is 18 days left until the end of the transfer window. We have no idea what is going on. I will till then end of the window to judge my club on its competence or not.
Once again Holic, that smug “Have you even read what is written above” attitude.
Good luck if this Blog is even here next Season with your 12 loyal followers who all use multiple names.
Who’s going to read what you say with any legitimacy once your beloved AW has gone?
Good luck, enjoy the Season.
Bernard, this blog will be here as long as Holic wants to write it. That’s the thing about blogs. It doesn’t matter if they have a million readers or no readers, the existence relies on the willingness of the writer and not the audience.
abb @ 64 — Well I just felt maybe this is not the best time to talk positives about Chelsea in this forum, we being Arsenal supporters and all, and in many ways they are the perfect anti-thesis of our club and its values and more sadly our recent respect vicissitudes.
To be sensitive to the collective state of mind of an audience is as important as the accuracy of the statements being uttered.
And it just so happens that the audience is very willing. It is nice to come to a place and sit on a sofa that doesn’t have teeth marks in the cushions. If biting the carpet is your thing, Le Grove is all yours.
Oh Dr Faustus, THAT is what offended you ?! Big sigh of relief, from me. Thanks for your kind words, though. Chelsea is just a distraction, that’s all. Just don’t know how we are going to manage, with so many injuries. Champs league means so much to me …. anyway, sorry that I upset you. 🙁
Bernard — As someone who has been following Arsenal only just over a decade and been visiting this blog only for two years, I will tell you this:
a. This is one of the best footballing blogs, let alone be Arsenal blogs, out there. It is succinct, temperate, moderate, generous, intelligent and welcoming. It is not prone to hysteria, or agenda pushing. It is well reserved in its depiction of remembrance of past as well as predictions of future.
b. I grew up immersed in both football and cricket and in cricket where erudite writing used to be more common — C.L.James is probably the pinnacle of sports writing — there too in modern times the standard of writing has dropped precipitously. The blog actually stands up very well to overall sports writing out there today.
c. And finally, the blog master does an excellent job in keeping discussions civil. I hope we can at least follow that example, even if we don’t agree with his views. Which are bound to be subjective, after all.
Better to have 12 loyal followers than a 1000 who don’t care about you. This blog, its writer and the ‘Holics are fantastic, and don’t need to pull punches.
Sad to say but I think people who own and run the club must have a vested interest in tthe club not buying players. I wouldn’t be surprised if Kroenke sold his share in the club at some point this season having made a whopping profit and having saved himself tens of millions in fees and wages. why does Wenger go along with it, unless he has gone completely mad? Does he really believe that there are no available players out there who are better than what we have already?
abb @ 72: I dislike Chelsea, have always done so, even though one of my favorite players — from my AC Milan following childhood days — in Gulit had joined them even before I became an Arsenal supporter.
For your distraction, I would leave you with the first XI for Fener:
Szcz
Bac – Per – Kos – Gibbo (have a feeling Gibbo would be alright form his cuts)
Ramsey – TR7 – Santi (don’t think Jack is ready to start after a 90 minutes stint)
Theo – Giroud – Poldi
Should be enough, no?
Still hurting here and still utterly astonished at that refereeing performance – pure pantomime – I hope it was just incompetence because it looked like a vendetta to me.
Bernard, those twelve loyal followers with multiple names also have multiple bank accounts and have raised nigh on £500 in memory of a fellow Gooner now sadly no longer with us.
What have you done for your fellow Gooners today big man?
Thanks Dr F and KVC. Two incidents stand out for me on the issue of playing advantage, or not; for Villa’s first Pen, the ref played advantage when Agbonlahor went down only to call the pen at least a full 3seconds(could be more) later when a Villa player missed from the resulting shot(the lineman had flagged for a corner). At 1-2, Agbonlahor clipped Jack’s heel after he(Jack) had released Rosicky into space with a nice pass, the ref looked up, saw the advantage, then decided to call the foul on Jack.
On cards; Vlaar, who was already on a yellow, made a similar tackle to the one that got Kos his second yellow but the ref let him off with a warning, remember he was already on a yellow and actually caught the man with his tackle while stopping a counter-attack simultaneously, BTW, Kos didn’t get the man with his tackle although I’ll admit it was a rash challenge.
Thanks to you too Bath, I was almost starting to think I needed treatment for paranoia.
Not sure whats worse The result yesterday or my total lack of anger ive gone past the anger stage and now just think meh – sad times,
H2H, That medicine was needed even sooner than i thought 🙂 Big Big Big game wednesday – We need a backs to the wall result like we ground out at the end of last season hopefully we can scratch out a draw and take care of Business at Home,
Lets not obsess about yesterday’s referee. He was a shocker but we still lost to a very poor team. Koscielny’s tackle was marginal not a blatant mistake and the biggest issue was that he got a yellow card for it. But his second challenge was stupid.
The bigger picture is much more important than yesterday and frankly it sucks when in reality we should be in a marvellous position.
Yesterday was a symptom but the disease needs curing
Faustus: I too think our starting back four will be available on Wednesday. It was positive that Gibbs walked off the pitch instead of on the stretcher.
Well balanced piece ‘Hol. I can’t disagree with much. By the way, I didn’t receive the Ropey mail you sent. Please see updated email Sir.
Also, some folks need to realize that this place is definitely more than a blog.
Dr Faustus, Gibbs’s gash might reopen with the slightest provocation, so he will surely be mindful of that. Bac? He must be all pins and needles, could have broken his neck. Injured players shouldn’t have to play before they are fully recovered. But it looks like that is just what is going to happen. What choice do we have.
In unrelated news Barca are leading 4-0 against Levante after 30 mins. Talk about a message being sent to Real..
abb @ 84 — I don’t think there is actually ever a full recovery from an injury in a few days. Players play through pain barriers and niggles and cuts, managers make the decision to gamble depending on the severity of the situations. A good result at Fener is a must as that gives us a breathing space and just about some time to get the reinforcements in before the return leg at home.
A good result at Turkey, some nifty signings — just a quick scan over the rumor mills have us linked with Herera, Turan, Michu, Williams : they would do in absence of ‘super top quality’ — and in a fortnight this may all seem a distance forgettable past.
Optimism of a football fan, eh? 🙂
Time is making more angry about everything that happened yesterday. so I will hold off saying too much just yet.
Just one aspect of yesterday was good and, as I was quite naturally cut off in the last bar (!) I’ll take the liberty of repeating it here –
——————————-
In the meantime, it was good to meet again with lots of Gooners who really care. People like Zico who travelled from Scotland to support that effort. People like Ollie and Snowy, whose outlay to support The Arsenal dwarfs my own £3,000 per season (before any tickets for daughter), not to even mention the time and love they dedicate to it.
People like Holic, Tabs, jackeen (thanks for the Taytos !), and others, who deserve far, far better for the time, money and emotion they invest in a club that appears, at the moment, to care about all sorts of things other than “being the best that they can be”. – Steve T.
There were many factors at play yesterday – from match officials to club officials.
——————————————–
bath, totally agree @77 about the referee.
I had 5Live on in the car on the way home and folks might like to note that the “completely neutral” BBC , er, pundits, Robbie Savage and whoever the other geezer was, said that they didn’t see ANY bad decisions by the referee, and no bad tackles by Aston Villa !!!
Personally, I watched Jack Wilshere being upended / flattened every time he went near an opponent, and Tomas Rosicky nearly exploded when pulled up for a foul, for the god knows how manyeth time after some of the most careful challenges I have ever seen.
It was a highly suspicious performance by the referee to say the very least.
If there was a referee’s assessor present who knows anything about football at all, it is puzzling as to why the referee wasn’t pulled off (down Wolfie) and replaced by the fourth official.
That would have been unprecedented but wholly merited – the performance was that bad.
Despite some poor play yesterday, I actually felt quite sorry for the players.
With the refereeing decisions being made, they must have wondered what they were allowed to do, let alone make challenges in vital areas.
Kos made one very good one which resulted in a penalty against him, and the first of a pair of yellow cards for some of the least innocuous challenges of the entire afternoon.
As abb said, it was a relief to see Sagna walk again at all, never mind be in contention for next Wednesday.
I didn’t really see if a back was deliberately made for Sagna but, if it was, the practise needs to be outlawed, and fast.
Thoughts on who is responsible for Arsenal Football Club being less well prepared for a season than The King’s Head can wait.
Save to say, ttg, that as I arrived at the bottom of the steps outside Block A after the game, I was one pace away from bumping into someone who was engaged in a very animated conversation on his mobile phone.
The deeply tanned figure turned, and turned out to be one David Dein.
I have to say that whatever my thoughts might be about his relationship with Usmanov, I did hope to hell that he was on the phone to Arsene Wenger.
Well if you persist on being so darn cheery, Dr F (it’s contagious), I was delighted by Woj’s two saves in the first half. Also got a kick out of him heading the ball and playing out of position. Reminded me of my fav Arsenal GK. 😉
Holic,
great to hear about Terry’s fund.
Bad news, by the way, for anyone expecting imminent “top, top” quality signings.
As if we didn’t all know just how hard they are to find, in his presser before the game Wenger said that we are now looking for only “top, top, top” quality players to improve the squad.
Which left me wondering, how many “tops” do you need to be better than nobody ? 😉
Trev, great post, I too wonder the effects this repeatedly poor officiating against us does to the mental state of the players, I dare say that even the invincibles would have had difficulties wining that game comfortably with two injury-enforced substitutions and that excuse of an official.
Heh @90.
I(‘ll send a batch over Chippy. (unless I use it all myself. 😉 )
Trev
He wouldn’t have got through-I was already on the phone to Wenger! Actually I was very close to the bloke being interviewed on Arsenal Fan TV that many may have seen on YouTube!
He was really giving it some egged on by an angry,braying mob. The two friends I was with were speculating what he might be saying if we exit the UCL and lose to Tottenham! I can’t allow myself to contemplate that. I think we need to go from game to game and make sure we can recruit top,top,top,top quality next week-my money is still on Flamini and a dramatic recall for TGSTEL. Pat Rice looked sprightly yesterday and Ray Parlour might also be available. Sadly the wife threw out my boots a few years ago but the spirit is willing-and I’ve never been to Turkey
Heh, ttg. 🙂
Cheers Cent.
Trev, if top, top, top is not enough, then maybe we can get these guys;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXavZYeXEc0
Funny isn’t it Trev. Normally if you mention David Dein you get slaughtered for it. He is this, he is that etc. Love him or hate him, the one thing he definitely is is an Arsenal man. Maybe we could do with a few of those right now because I’m still completely bewildered as to what Stan actually wants or does.
At the moment we just seem to lack leadership, direction and worst of all, ambition.
Assists….
Dein is a cunt.
But maybe we need a cunt to do our deals
Gooooooaaaaaall
BAMM
AAaaah.
Assist and goal Cent?
Speculative at best. 😉
But well in.
Cheers Dr F.
You know my view: always trust the good doctor.
And for the polite, considerate treatment of benard i would offer everyone in the bar a drink on me. Including to bernard as well but yours will be a luke warm PBR followed by a shot pf my choosing.
Im a Jameson man, my blood and by nature, so thats a good thing eh!
And now – Bring me Fenerbache’s head(s) on a pole you gunners!
I would have Dein back in a heartbeat. It would be nice to have someone in charge that knows the game, can do a job and is Arsenal through and through.
Cheers H2H, they all count, don’t they? Well TaBSed by the way.
Steve T
I am with you!
Not sure quite why a man who effectively put together the structure for the modern Arsenal is a cunt.Perhaps it was that cuntish decision to buy Bergkamp..or Sol Campbell.
He’s richer than most of us but I’ve met him several times and at heart he is a huge Arsenal fan who got the chance to build his club up and was damned good at it.
He was against building the new ground suggesting it would derail our ability to compete for trophies but certainly his idea of moving to Wembley was a no-no. All I can say is that we’ve been a much less successful club since he left,forced out by a contretemps with Fiszman.But he and Wenger are still close.
The funny thing is that if he did return in say,IG’s role he would not countenance sacking Wenger but he would make him much more effective. It seems clear Wenger and Gazidis can’t work together if this summer is anything to go by (or summer 2011)
Is Dein some kind of magician? If not, please stop acting like he is.
Anyway, he ain’t coming back as long as Kroenke is the owner.
But, I agree that we need a sport director at the club, someone who can help Arsene (or the new potential manager) on the football stuff.
Lurky
Magician-no but he can work with Wenger is a great negotiator and someone who has about the biggest contact book in world football.
During his tenure we won 5 titles,5 FA Cups, 2 League cups and the ECWC.
That’s a big upgrade on Gazidis (and Dick Law.)(Honours …er zero)
Suggestions for a better Technical director on a postcard. He will be picked by Wenger,report to Wenger and it won’t work with our current set-up. Dein (who introduced Kroenke to the Arsenal Board) is probably the only person Wenger listens to.
So perhaps Sir Chips has to broker a compromise. Kroenke worships Wenger and Wenger wants Dein back on the Board. Fiszman who fell out bigtime with Dein is sadly no longer there so its a more practical suggestion than most I have heard
David Dein once famously wound up the Spurs fans by waving his scarf around and giving it large to their fans, then hopped into his nice fancy car and sped off, leaving Arsenal fans to deal with the consequences of his stupidity. He is a cunt. In my opinion of course.
BREAKING NEWS – Southampton have somehow managed to spend £15m on a striker. Southampton. £15m.
Lurky,
I’m not sure anyone is acting like Dein is a magician and, I have to say, I’m surprised there wasn’t some major falling out with his son for his role in the loss of so many of our players. Perhaps there was – I don’t know.
I hated his idea of sharing Wembley, and I know he was anti The Emirates.
However, it is hard to deny that he had a great working relationship with Wenger and, if the quality of our team when Dein was involved was a coincidence, it was a big one.
I wasn’t suggesting his reinstatement, or calling him a magician, but he had an ability – and probably a hell of a lot of connections in the game – that we currently clearly lack.
I seem to have repeated some of your thoughts there, tag.
ttg, even.
Reading Bernard’s posts above made me laugh on the bus home after a pretty shit shift at work, he just wouldn’t answer the question about him having read the blog or not (I can answer it for him, No.)
Holic, I remember you yesterday afternoon wisely making the decision to wait till today to post (enforced by the Management 😉 ) as me, you, Top Man Snowy & others chatted and it has paid off dividends, great post.
Yesterday, well… Enough has been said on Anthony Taylor and his ‘performance’ but I’m not sure if they has been a time where the chants of “The Referee’s a Wanker” and “You don’t know what you’re doing” have been more succinct in an Arsenal Premier League game. Every single 50/50 challenge for us, we were penalised. Nearly Every 50/50 for Villa, and they were waved on.
But let me focus on the positives from yesterday, eating my first Piebury Corner pie (a beautiful Dennis Bergkamp :’)), seeing the Holics again at the Tollington, having excellent & scintillating conversations/discussions with Gooner strangers, putting Twitter Handles to Faces, witnessing ‘TaBS Ft. Ollie – Liar Liar’ live, joining along with chants just for the fun of it… The result was very shit, but the day as a whole? Not so bad 🙂
Some very good drinks over the last few bars, making good points on both sides of the fence. Most of you will not be too surprised to hear that I pitch my tent somewhere in between Steve T and the picket white, although I do enjoy zeN7’s ability to calmly rationalise the current situation. However, I can find absolutly no rationality in how we have (mis)handled our business over the summer.
A while a go, I called our squad anorexic, well, after yesterday’s pukefest it’s also looking like it’s pretty boulemic too. After the elation of sealing 4th place on the final day of last season, to now be going into a qualifying game with limited options just beggers belief. God forbid we pick up injuries out there, who the hell are we going to put out at Craven Cottage? Suffice to say that we are so bleedin’ thin we’d make Twiggy look obese. This to me is down to either incompetance or mismanagement, both are unacceptable.
I was not alone when raising the alarm a while ago, but those of us who felt that it was going tits up were compared (by a poster I admire for his contributions) to Chicken Licken. Well, the sky may very well not have fallen down, but surely I’m not the only one with a nasty taste of cloud in my mouth?
I also never really quite understood the whole “wait until Sep 2 to pass judgement” stance either, yes I get it that sometimes transfers are difficult, definetly when shopping at the top end, but at this moment, who the hell is left at the top end of the market? Even if we do get a superpooperscooper quality addition, which I find highly unlikely at this time, we still need decent squad players as cover for the starting XI, letting 20+ players go and bringing only one in is utter madness, any fool could tell you that those mathes just don’t add up. Surely it couldn’t be that difficult to bring in (at least) three or four decent additions while we’re holding out to land the Big Kahuna.
I’ve read AW saying that there are still 17(?) days left and in the transfer market that is a long time, well, if that’s considered a long time, how about the preceeding, at least 3 times as many days that have gone before that fuck all was done? That now feels like an age.
We all knew that the season would begin on Aug 17th, as an entrapenuer who has started and owned a number of business’, it seems unconcievable to me that I wouldn’t have (almost) all my ducks in a row, my stock complete and my menus ready by opening day (17/8) ofcourse, after opening day, I can always refine said menus, but if I don’t have at least all the ingrediants on the first day then that’s just incompetant. (sorry for the laboured analogy)
It’s too late now, no matter how you want to slice it. We’ve blown the start, which is not the end of the world in itself, but we’ve also lost a few members of the already wafer thin squad, a problem bourne of a clusterfuck of epic proportions. Who are we going to get now? We’re gonna get fleeced, if whoever it is that is responcable for splashing the cash thinks the prices were too high over the off season, then he’s in for the shock of his life over the next few weeks. Selling clubs are going to see us coming from miles off as we overwelm them with the stench of desperation and fear. Any purchase now is going to seem like a panic buy, it’s 2011 all over again, what was that that Einstein said about doing the same thing and expecting different results? Deja fucking vu all over again.
The worst thing about it is that now the top men are running for cover, the blame game will be next on the agenda, arses will need to be covered, the blame will be a pass the parcel game, whoever’s holding the bag will take the brunt when the music stops…….
But what the fuck will happen to the presumed guilty party? If it’s the boss, who’s going to take him to task? Gazidas? Do me a favour, Wenger out trumps him all day long. If it’s Gazidis left holding the bag, who gets to bitch slap his baldy bits? Sir Chips of Whateverhisface? I doubt it very much.
The Silent One who’s never around could he be the fall guy? Ofcourse not, he’s the major shareholder and he’s untouchable, we can moan and bitch as much as we want but it’s his party and he can run it (into the ground) anyway he chooses. I can’t understand how someone with so much history in business would let the club be so mismanaged. Say whatever you want about Abramovic (and I haven’t got much nice to say) but he wouldn’t let such incompetance take free reign.
Even if we had won yesterdays game, it still wouldn’t have changed the fact that this summers (lack of) activety is totaly unacceptable, I’m not going to pretend to know how’s to blame, but at this point in time it’s irrelevent anyway, we are where we are regardless.
This was our time, this was the summer that we could put down a marker, our direct competition (or those we kid ourselves are our direct competition) all made managerial changes, while we remained a beacon of stability. We were told the cash was in place, as were the deals to take us to the next level, yet here we are again, worse off and then we were at the end of last term with a decimated squad after only 90 minutes of football. It wasn’t supposed to be like this.
Surely we deserve better, or at the very least the truth?
H2H we really do, but all we’re going to get is another week and a bit of absolutely bricking it wondering what second rate desperation signings are coming on board.
All the while Wenger will spout the usual nonsense he excels at. I’ve literally never been so afraid to watch football.
The truth?, we can’t handle the truth!
OOPs
heh Bath
H2H
I don’t agree with all of that, but it’s still a great post.
I think the moment is fast approaching when the support will finally, at long last, need to be told the truth. There has been a lot of patience these last 8 years, and – quite clearly – if it isn’t now entirely expended, it ain’t far off.
I also wanted to add that i dont agree with the notion (not expressed by you, I should add) that it’s too late. It’s not too late. There are at least a dozen players out there who are on the market and would improve us. There are a couple who would require some seriously big bucks but would take us up a level. 17 days may not be much, but it’s enough to spend the dough and bring in the reinforcements. No excuses.
Beyond that, I’m now looking ahead to weds. I think the available XI have it in them to do the job. Whether they can then come home and win at Fulham a couple of days later I’m less certain of. I still don’t believe the first team is that bad – fool that I am. I think they can be improved, of course, I think they can be supplemented with a proper squad, but these are the same players who won at Bayern and were, until very recently, unbeaten since Feb. They should have beaten Villa and now they must beat Fener.
COYG – put this right
Come on Arsene et al we need to think piggy not twiggy!
Heh Bath.
=====
Cheers N7, nothing wrong with disagreeing, and I fully respect your optimistic outlook, I almost wish i could be as positive.
However it’s quite difficult from where I’m standing. I did actually say that it was too late, I believe the time for serious additions has come and gone. Yes we can still purchase reinforcements, but how much they can help is anybodies guess. At the end of last term it was universialy accepted that we needed at least three or four additions, that was before we not only trimmed, but completly butchered the fat off the squad.
Some indeed had to go, but others? I’m not so sure. It’s left us at the stage that three or four additions may not be enough, we need at least six or seven to be anywhere near able to compete.
Yes, we have a decent enough squad, but numbers wise we come up way to short, the proof in that particular pudding is already plain to see. A few, Dennis no, more injuries and we will be up a river of excrament while the paddle shop owner’s buggered off for his hol’s.
Letting Djourou and the Coq go out on loan before any additions seems quite a bad call among many. On the bright side it is still mathematically possible to get over 100 points!
H2H
Tend to agree.
I do try to stay positive where possible, but I have to say that the greatest mystery of this summer for me – the one that I really cannot imagine any solid explanation for – is the decision to let Gervinho, Coquelin, Djorou and Miquel go without replacements already done and dusted. Just unfathomable.
I think we need 5 players; the same 5 we always seem to need: GK, centre back, def mid, centre forward and a utility man who can cover multiple defensive positions.
Get those players in, nurse the others back to fitness and we should be a materially stronger outfit than last season. It’s not rocket science, by any means.
Good call, Pip.
Not by any stretch of the imagination, mate. That’s what makes it all the more frustrating. Most here have been saying it for years. We’ve been told time and time again that we have pinpointed our weakness’ and that we are to act on that info. Yet…………..
That’s enough from me on that.
Next round’s on my slate.
Cheers H2H.
The mad thing is that, by my count, we could afford to pay each of those 5 new players £100k a week and the wage bill would remain static. Can’t be that hard.
I’ll settle for quantity.
Mail reports that Chamberlain could miss the rest of the season. Disaster if true. Against Villa, he was by far our best player in the first half. I thought that this was going to be a big season for him. Such a shame.
I wonder every season, what is behind those injuries? Bad luck, bad pitch, club physicians, training methods? I don’t think it is a coincidence to have so many and long term injuries year after year.
Have to say Lurky, as a sports physio and hopefully with an eye for such things, I did think yesterday, immediately after the impact, that that would be the last we would see of The Ox for some time.
He came to a real jarring halt in that challenge. Colin Lewin seemed satisfied pretty quickly that nothing was broken but, admittedly from halfway up the upper tier, it looked like a lot of ligament testing going on.
The Ox clearly didn’t trust his weight on the leg at all.
So sad. He was looking a real prospect this season.
What is the injury reported to be ?
@ Trev
ACL is the rumour I’ve heard. No more detail than that.
Terrible news for the kid if true. He forces his way into the first XI and then this happens.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2396748/Alex-Oxlade-Chamberlain-season-knee-injury.html
I’m also not overly optimistic for Sagna’s chances of playing on Wednesday.
His ‘fall’ was right in front of me and I actually grabbed my own head as he landed – a horrendous sight. (his fall – not my head – well, maybe)
I imagine it depends on whether the after effects are classified as a head or neck injury, and whether there is any compression concussion.
Great to have football back, innit ?
N7,
makes sense if his flexed knee took the forwards thrust of the impact.
Such a composed run and accurate pass for Giroud’s goal. Looks a natural footballer.
Hope he’s ok, long term.
Cheers H2H, great post up there, by the way.
Trev, he has further scans tomorrow, but not looking good. As N7 points out ACL it seems indeed.
In other news, looks like Sagna is definitely out for Wednesday. With Rosicky and Ramsey big doubts, Monreal, Diaby out, Cazorla unfit, I would not like to fill manager’s boots on Wednesday.
Particularly if Walcott, Mert, Woj, Jenkinson and Jack demonstrate their Villa form.
I posted immediately and deflatedly just after full time yesterday, then withdrew from the bar, on instincts that turn out to be similar to the Guv’nor’s. I feared the angst and invective would be too corrosive to be constructive. Allowing it 24 hours to blow itself out seemed prudent. And, happily I had family affairs to divert me. I now stand very much where I’ve stood all summer. The first XI is good enough to win trophies, –though the addition of some fabled super-quality never goes amiss –but the squad is too thin to get them through all the games they will have to play to do so. I also think ‘Holic and others put their finger on something that has been blatantly obvious for several seasons but has come to a low point this summer. Something is seriously amiss with the negotiating team. I am not privy to the cause though I can see the effect. I don’t underestimate the complexity of negotiating for players. It is not like popping down to the local Tesco (QuickSave in our case) and loading up on world-class players. It is a sellers’ market for top players. You are trying to peel contracted players from reluctant sellers. And you have to keep your second, third and fourth choices in play while pursuing your first. But that all said other clubs seem to be able to do it, but not us any more. Perhaps it is time for Kronke to step in and get that fixed. He did, after all, make his fortune as a real estate developer. He should know how to negotiate.
I am going to take the half-glass full approach and take yesterday’s game as just a very bad day. We’ll play worse and win on other days. Until the ludicrous second penalty, I thought we’d dig out the three points somehow even if it wasn’t the most convincing performance. But nor am I going to deny that there is a worrying crack in the glass which if not fixed in short order will see it drain empty in no time.
Gibbs is apparently OK for Weds.
I think Ramsey is the one we really need to pull through now. Someone has to anchor that midfield and his adaptability may also be required elsewhere.
I have to say, I will be looking to Walcott to stand up and be counted on Weds night. Whatever his age, he’s a senior squad member and he needs to grab the team by the scruff of the neck and get them through this period. That’s what players of the type he presumably aspires to be tend to do in these situations.
At the other end, I think we need a big game from Kos. He has a tendency to start seasons slowly – he will need to be fully awake for this one.
Good post NBN.
The problem with expecting someone like Walcott to step up is that he needs to get the ball in situations where he can do his stuff, which means in behind the full back and not to feet. If he doesn’t get the service, he won’t be able to influence the game. No use if our central players dawdle on the ball all the time, we have to move the ball quicker from front to back. Is it just me who thinks every other club had more intent in what they did this weekend?
The bloke who has to get his finger out, fit or not, on Wednesday is Jack Wilshere IMO.
By fit or not I mean fully fit. He can hardly get his finger out if he is unfit and not playing 🙂
And by front to back I mean back to front.
Fucking hellfire… 🙁
Btw, re: the 5 players I suggested we needed earlier: Begovic, Sakho, Fellaini, Benteke, Flamini would do me fine.
There is lot of talk about Ashley Williams this evening. Don’t rate him at highly, there are better, faster, younger and cheaper options out there, but after three months of waiting, signing a new player- that would be something new.
In addition, as I said countless times and I would repeat once more, I would welcome Seamus Coleman as our new RB. Would be perfect signing.
Begovic, Fellaini, Baines. If you sign Fellaini you don’t need Flamini. So we’ll give Flamini a deal because he is cheap and disposable.
N7, I like your wishlist, mate.
Mine is similar and is from the start of the transfer window: Mignolet, Sakho, Fellaini, Coleman, Suarez. Add to that Flamini on free.
As you can see I was greedier. Considering Mignolet is gone, I would embrace signing Begovic for sure. But I don’t give up on the others, not yet.
Poldi had better get over his sulking about playing left back before Wednesday…
I just hope we are not seriously going to spend huge money on Michu, who has one season wonder written right through him
Patrick Vieira speaking in 2001:
Vieira’s Highbury feud turns ugly
Arsenal were meeting today to decide their response to Patrick Vieira’s extraordinary attack on the club’s board, his team-mates and Arsene Wenger’s summer signings.The Frenchman is demanding to leave Highbury but the board are believed to be ready for a legal battle with Vieira to hold him to his contract, which does not expire until 2004. The club know that, in World Cup Finals year, the one good card they have to play is the threat of banishing Vieira to the sidelines.The 25-year-old’s reported comments today inflamed an already tense stand-off. He said: “I need to leave because I want to win more trophies and I just cannot see that happening at Arsenal. Certainly not over the next few years, anyway. Comparing Arsenal to the big clubs in Europe this season is going to be quite ridiculous.”I do not honestly see Arsenal finishing in the top five in the league – and you can forget the Champions League.”Arsenal wished to keep their star player happy by launching a summer spending spree but Vieira dismissed the signings of Francis Jeffers, Giovanni van Bronckhorst and probably Richard Wright.”When I told Arsene Wenger I was leaving, he said to me, ‘I have £25million to spend on a few players’. My answer was, ‘Obviously, Mr Wenger, you are not shopping in Harrods. That will only buy you one good player.’ Now I have been proved right. Arsene Wenger has signed two hopeful players who haven’t proved themselves in the Premiership yet. One of them is a boy of 20.”You can’t compete with the best clubs in Europe by making these kind of signings. Arsene Wenger is an ambitious manager and he knows deep in his heart that he needs five world-class players to compete among the best in Europe.”With £25million in the kitty, Arsenal is not a great European club. With that budget they won’t even be among the top 20 clubs in Europe.”Fellow Frenchmen Robert Pires, Thierry Henry, Sylvain Wiltord and Gilles Grimandi have urged Vieira to remain at Highbury, but the midfielder criticised his team-mates, saying: “I have given 100 per cent to Arsenal over the last five years. They have only been there for a year or so. They have won nothing with Arsenal. They should stay and try to win things for the club before they open their mouths. My message to these players is that they have their lives and I have mine.
Great posts tonight especially H2H and N7. Our bench will be so inexperienced on Wednesday Wenger must accept that he has been totally negligent yesterday. Isaac Hayden’s dad is a friend of my neighbour at the Emirates and he nearly made the bench yesterday. Bellerin , Hayden , Zelalem and Sanogo may all be on the bench on Wednesday and none of them have played a minute in the first team in a competitive game. How can a manager allow that to happen?
I like most of N7’s picks. I’m a massive fan of Fellaini. Agbonlahor wouldn’t have run through the middle of the defence if he had been playing on Saturday and Williams is a decent defender.Benteke is raw but he is going to be a monster. Depending on the deal I would look at getting Eto’o on a loan deal for a season or going for Martinez of Porto. I like Begovic but Wenger won’t betray his love child Wojciech and Flamini gives us cover. The real star signing would be Willian. He is a great player
As the house creaks again (for the umpteenth time today) and I hold, momentarily, hoping it’s not going to roll again into another ‘big one’, and as I digest events from the Emirates and resulting angst, I remember what Aussie cricketing great and WW2 fighter pilot, Keith Miller, said about the pressures of international sport … “Pressure”, he said “is a Messerschmitt up your arse, playing cricket is not”. Nor is football either, I suggest.
With luck we’ll view today as a minor case of heartburn once things settle. Hopefully after Arsenal wins the ‘big one’ on September 1.
Oskar
Good luck Oskar our thoughts are with you.
Is there any reason we shouldn’t put in an offer for Falcao if the rumours about him prove true? Or offer Pool $55m for Suarez and see what they say to that? Plus a DM of course and hopefully a CD and creative MF … ie, a whole new spine. God knows we need some spine in the team after yesterday’s surrender.
If ever a massive gesture of intent was due it’s NOW.
We still should have stolen it though. Imagine if it had been Suarez with those two chances TR7 (much as I love him) fluffed…
Oskar
Thanks Ttg. Sorry to keep harping on it, but it’s kind of hard to ignore. All the kind words are a comfort, but I’d still be keen to do a house swap with anyone in the UK right now if I get an offer … any offer?? 😉
Oskar
Fair play gusty for posting that link, knowing full well at the end of that season Vieira won his second double.
He learned what a fucking stupid thing to say that was…
Why would Falcao come to Arsenal?
We have left it too late to get a proper world class player in, because adding that one player is not going to make a massive difference. If we’d added a couple of convincers first, then hit the top player we’d have had a chance.
Hypothetical example – If we go for Rooney now, he (Rooney) would surely think that he alone is not going to turn this squad into contenders and he wouldn’t want to join also rans. He’s going to think “Me + Them = not good enough”. If, however, Rooney had been the third signing after a couple of really strong additions it would have been easier for him to say yes.
I’m not saying go and get Rooney but if you want a really world class player you don;t do your chances any good if you wait until it looks like a panic buy.
I fear the time has come for Arsene to walk out,while we still fondly remember his legacy. All great leaders face a moment in time where their work is questioned, either they change their ways and come clean or they walk away in the hope that their vision which so obviously blights their aspirations will be brought to fruition by another capable leader. It was the saddest opening day as I have know in my 15 years of watching Arsenal.Here we were 60 strong gooners at 7:30 AM in the dingy little Yucca Tap room in Phoenix, anxious that our worst fears will come true,lo and behold the worst started unfolding after our first goal. Not one soul felt that Arsene was the right man to lead us from here on in. If a 26 year old who has not kicked a ball in anger professionally has seen this coming for 3 months now surely Arsene should have seen this.I may have never gone to see my beloved team play in London because I cannot afford it but I do spend a substantial amount of money in merchandize and I feel like a schmuck. I love Arsene for he is the only manager I have known for my team, it pains me to see him like this but I do not think he will change his ways looking at his post match briefs, here is a man who is just not willing to accept that the modern game has changed and adapt accordingly. Here is a scenario for the next two weeks :-
1) We do not buy anyone substantial and then surely Arsene is doomed. (Do not foresee this happening.
2) We go shopping 2011 style,unplanned we pay over the market price for the wrong players and are then left with more Park Chu’s than Arteta’s.
3) We get the right buys and we kick on.
1) and 2) will see Arsene leave , while 3) may give us what we need I feel it will only feed Arsene’s vindication in having waited this long in the market and that the media and us have not understood him which is not good in the long run.
Please move on Arsene, I know a lot of you may feel that this is not the right time and he should be judged a) at the end of the window b) at the end of January c) at the end of May, but have we not gone down this path before?
Trev @ 129 & 132:
I bow to your knowledge as a sports Physio but like you, I felt really relieved that Sagna actually walked away from that fall yesterday. At the time, I honestly thought he’d broken his neck! And in the replays, I couldn’t understand why he didn’t – such was the violence and angle of the fall. I know the referee, the red card, and the penalties all made the headlines, but Sagna’s fall for me was the most memorable moment if only because he got up and walked away from it all…!
N7,
Thanks for keeping the flag of positivity flying…! While the clubs lack of signings as yet cannot be rationally defended, it’s clear that there are serious intentions and a genuine and mature sense of perspective was needed over the past two days. Thanks for providing that!
Steve T & Zico:
With the deepest of respect to you both, I categorically and unequivocally disagree with both of your assessments over the past few days. In your case Steve, probably over the entire summer. I neither have the wish nor inclination to go into greater detail at this point, because I feel it would just be wholly counter-productive on a myriad of fronts. Everyone is hurting at the moment. A performance like yesterdays is exacerbated because of the lack of transfer activity rather than the real issues on the field. Most people hope that things will be resolved on that front before Sept 2nd. I don’t feel that Kronke, Gazidis nor Wenger owe me anything as a fan. I have no entitlement apart from attending the games I pay tickets for or pay to watch on the box. They are mere guardians of AFC and not owners per se. The club is about the inexplicable love you first get as a child watching the game. Its something that stays and grows with us all throughout life.
There is no other manager or club who has delivered a stadium, grown organically, and provided some of the most exhilarating entertainment over the past 17 years that Wengers tenure at AFC. As an owner, Kronke has paid the best part of a billion for the club, not loaded it with debt, not taken dividends, unilaterally supported the manager and provided huge funds this year for investment.
Its not all perfect, but we’re in a much better place than most other clubs. A sense of perspective wouldn’t go amiss. Wenger at the very least deserves patience until Sept. The result at the weekend was shit. But it had more to do with the referee, injuries, red cards, naive defending and missed opportunities than our lack of activity in the transfer market..!
Ramsey and Wilshere may in time make an excellent double pivot to anchor the midfield. But they need to get the experience. It is sobering to realise that Arteta has played as third as many again Premiership games than Wilshere and Ramsey combined.
‘Holic, I was gonna post what you posted @154 but gave up the idea as I thought anybody who posted that 148 won’t still see the folly in it, 158 confirms it.
Cynic … I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that hasn’t been part of the problem all along … players like Fellaini (perhaps) might well have been waiting all along pending a big signing by us. In any case there are plenty of examples in the current transfer window of decent players signing for clubs in worse situations than Arsenal’s. Obviously any offers to marquee players would include the assurance that more quality will be signed. For all we know there could be a domino effect waiting to happen once we secure a star buy. And even if we can’t get one that’s no reason why we shouldn’t try, ffs.
Oskar
Since wish lists are in vogue today, mine goes like this … Cesar, Varane, Fellaini, Reus, Suarez.
Oskar
Begovic, Fellaini, Sakho, Ben Arfa (re The Ox), Lewandowski
and three flying pigs 😉
Hey Oskar – Dont know where you are in NZ but hold on tight mate.
Up here in Auckland things not wobbling of course, but last week I was in Wellington and saw the damage on the Quayside from the last “quake.
Its scary.
RE the football — It is now painully obvious that we as a club are unwilling or unable to add the required talent to the current squad in order to make us once more a force. For me, it’s clear that AW is the main reason for our slide. I beleive his jugment is becoming increasingly flawed. He steadfastly maintains that this squad is good enough to compete for honours. I am utterly convinced of the reverse. I dont beleive a single player from this squad could force thier way into any of the previous title winning Arsenal teams.Better players equal better , more successful teams,generally speaking. So why dont we buy any?
I’m gutted, but I genuinely think his time is up.
Its also a distinct possibility that we will this year finish behind the Spuds.
And all this is gleaned from one single defeat? — Hell no!
The writing has been on the wall for a while — I just didnt want to look at it.
Just seen that Southampton (FFS!) have just signed a 15million pound Italian international striker.
Too confused to continue…………….
Remember when Chelsea loaned out Benayoun to the Gunners as the window closed two years ago?
Looking at this season’s Chelsea bench, maybe they could afford to lend Arsenal Mata, Luiz (both didn’t dress vs Hull), Essien and Lukaku. Biggest plus would be that AW would be overjoyed at not having to spend any money….
Otd: good point. Stars will follow stars so getting the first one in is key. And worth spending over the odds for the demonstration effect.
IF@163: you raise a compelling benchmark.
The Invincibles were:
Lehman
Lauren
Campbell
Toure
Cole
Vieira
Gilberto
Ljungberg
Bergkamp
Pires
Henry
Of the present team:
Woj could be better than Lehman
Sagna is better than Lauren
Kos-BFG will be on a par with Campbell-Toure
Gibbs may be as good as Cole
Ramsey isn’t Viera 2
Arteta is on a par with Gilberto
Theo could be better than Freddie, if he can find consistency
Jack may be as good as Dennis, but they’ll never be the same sort of player,
Santi is’nt quite Bobby
Giroud isn’t Thiery.
So in short, the current team isn’t there yet but could be pretty close to it with a quality addition or two.
Some reasonable suggestions here … http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-independents-99m-plan-to-restore-the-lost-faith-of-arsenals-support-8773499.html
I’d certainly support spending more than the 70m that is quoted. If we really do have more we COULD spend I say NOW is a good time to do so.
Oskar
North Bank Ned
Blimey!
Sadly Jack will never be as good as Dennis and Theo won’t replicate what Ljungberg did because he hasn’t got the character of Ljungberg. The BFG is nowhere near as good as Sol Campbell and Zgibbs is not as good as Cole. Woj is nowhere near as consistent as Lehmann.Arteta would not have got in a Brazil world- cup winning side.
The real difference is how much better Thierry ,Vieira etc were than their current counterparts. Huge difference for example between Henry and Giroud.There were six world- class players in that team. There are two possibles in our side now ( LJW and Santi) . So please rose coloured glasses are good but they need to be worn the right way round.
Good lists all round.
I think we’re generally agreed on the types of players/positions that need covering. Now it’s just a case of hoping the club go out and do it.
As the days tick by I am becoming increasingly certain that any activity will occur only after 27 August, once our champions league status is clarified. It all feels far too similar to the last time we had to play a qualifier.
If I’m correct then we are in for a really, really tense end to the window, and we will have to hope that the “trolley dash” yields more Artetas and Mertesackers, less Santos and Parks.
The big question for me at this stage: will Snir be back in the bar to guide us through what seems likely to be a fraught deadline day?
What a sad Saturday.
How sad to see a team so on top of a game suddenly lose so much confidence that they became a shambles. (Multiple choices as to whom to blame).
How sad to see the home stands emptying before the match ended.
But it’s passed and now is the time to remember that we support a Club, not just a team (winning or not). I realise that we don’t have to agree with everything that those in charge do but hopefully what they do is what they believe is best for the Club – even though it’s sometimes difficult for us to believe that.
Once upon a time, I believed along with the Club that Billy Wright would be a good manager. Shows how much we know.
Right.
Some time has now passed and knees have started to slow their jerking motions down.
I think what happened on the pitch on Saturday has been massively blown out of proportion if you isolate it as a game of football. Call it sour grapes or whatever you want, but the main reason we lost was the ref. Villa got away with murder all game (if that had been a Tony Pubis-led Stoke he would have been extremely proud) and if the ref had applied the same standards to both teams Villa would have been down to nine before half-time. How Agbonlahor was allowed to continually and very cynically kick Ramsey and Wilshere I will never know, and then giving him a yellow in added time when it was all over only serves as an extra middle finger in our faces. We rarely got to play the advantage while Villa almost always got the advantage and then a second chance from the penalty spot. Villa got two penalties that were, to say the least, dubious. Per Mertesacker and Jack Wilshere both had decent shouts for penalties but were denied and personally, I think the one on Jack when he was simply barged over by a player nowhere near the ball was a nailed-on penalty.
That is one thing.
The other is what has happened – or rather hasn’t happened – over the summer. And the more I analyse it, the more I come to the conclusion that while I don’t know exactly why and where it has gone wrong I am starting to feel that looking for a single scapegoat is pointless, everyone involved must look at what they have been doing. The way I see it we have the following different plausible scenarios and claims:
The board doesn’t want to spend
Well, I don’t have to go into why this is wrong, do i?
Wenger doesn’t want to spend but the board does
This does not reflect well at all on Arsene if true, but it reflects even worse on the board. They are his superiors, and unless he has a very strange contract that gives him a veto on pretty much everything, they can just tell him to shut up and let the board decide what is too expensive. And if he does have such a clause in his contract, then how the hell did they allow such a contract to be signed in the first place???
Wenger changes his mind all the time
Well, once again the board members are his superiors. Sit him down, say “alright, you’ve got until Monday morning to give us a prioritised list of players and then we’ll work from that and whatever you say after that doesn’t matter because we have to know what we are supposed to do”. Both this scenario and the one above would paint Arsene in a bad light, but both would be eminently rectifiable with a bit of determined leadership.
Wenger wants to spend, the board wants to spend
So why haven’t we then? Crap at negotiating or going after players that we never stood a chance of getting seems to be the only reasonable explanations.
Arsene Wenger has lost his appeal
It hurts to say it, but maybe Arsene is increasingly being seen as a dinosaur amongst major players. That would only leave one option, and that would be to sack him. I must say, though, that I find this quite unlikely because quite often we still hear players talk about what a great manager he is.
There is also one reason that is theoretically possible but highly unlikely, and that is that we have been lied to about the financial situation and that we are really strapped for cash but that would mean that the books have been fiddled with in a way that would probably be highly illegal so this one seems, as I said, highly unlikely.
Yes, we are not at September 2nd yet and the situation is still not beyond rescuing. We have a few very good players, but we have too few of them. Like others have said, letting Gervinho and the Coq go without having replacements ready to go is beyond comprehension. Miquel maybe not so much because he is simply not good enough but the other two? They may not be good enough for us to win anything and I don’t really mind letting any of them go as such but where are the replacements??? The idea of letting the sub-par players go must surely be to make room for replacements of a higher quality, right? It just doesn’t make any sense either way you twist it.
Now, you can never guard yourself against desperately unlucky injuries like what happened to the Ox (it would be awful if he is indeed out for the entire season) but going into the season knowing that we can barely handle three injuries across the team is simply foolish. Last year, we got Podolski in early on and Giroud fairly early so surely getting two players of about the same quality in at the same stage this summer shouldn’t have been that impossible, should it? That would not in any way have ruled out getting a big-name signing in later on – hell, it might even have made it easier ffs! Much as I hate to say it, Sp*rs have done exactly the right thing in going after players just below the top layer, players with some talent and something to prove and while losing Bale would be a blow for them then at least they have been as proactive as they can. It may or may not work, but it has a hell of a lot more chances of working than waiting until Bale has gone and then going on a desperate hunt for players and ending up with Chris Samba, Joey Barton and Jermaine Pennant. To paraphrase Steve T, they are doing what they can about being the best that they can be.
Fuckin hell, that last bit was painful to write.
This turned out to be quite long, and while I have far from given up (three players, who don’t have to be particularly big names, would go a very long way towards at least giving us a far more stable platform to keep building from in January and the next summer) we are running out of options and very quickly so. Whatever Arsene and the board are up to, they need to up their game sharpish and show some very concrete results. And they have two weeks and few hours in which to do it at the time of writing.
Over to you, Arsene and Ivan.
Right you ‘orrible lot, we have bigger fish to fry.
Having made a latest of late entries into the ‘Holic famous Your Ropey League, Storey’s Strollers wish to lodge an immediate sour grapes complaint.
Currently topping the league is a side including EVRA, Zabaletta, Toure and…. wait for it…. SOLDADO!
WTF?!?!
Hang your head in shame the Sisy’s manager. Truly Diab’holical.
Have a great week ‘Holics. Even the Sisy’s manager 😉
Haven’t done a complete backdrink but I must say the optimism of some of the drinkers (re: wish lists) is admirable to say the least. People who know me in real life will always assert that I’m an incredibly positive and upbeat guy, but I’m holding my tongue on this one. 8 years of consistent disappointment can do that to a man.
Still, roll on weds eh? Let’s turn this around and get back on track!
COYG
Lars
HEH! @
“…and then going on a desperate hunt for players and ending up with Chris Samba, Joey Barton and Jermaine Pennant…”
Sorry, I realise you just poured your heart out but that really tickled my funny bone.
Cheers and have a pint of whatever you fancy from me 🙂
TS, that was intended to be a bit funny so you are most welcome to have a chuckle 🙂
Great post, Lars. Agree with almost everything you said, including the Sp*rs part. They did their best to strengthen this summer. We did our worst.
Reading some Arsene’s quotes this morning, made me even more depressed that yesterday and the day before.
‘I could throw money off the Eiffel Tower and the players still can’t play on Wednesday.’
Seriously?
I mean, is now the time to realize that?!?! Two days before the first CL qualification game?
He got to ask himself one simple question. What exactly was the thing he did this summer to avoid this type of situations where throwing money from the Eiffel Tower can’t solve our problems?
Lurky, whereabouts did you read that? I’m voraciously devouring anything he says at the moment.
Just pray that’s not exactly what’s in Arsene’s trolley on 2 September.
bath: what, you mean he’s trying to buy the Eiffel Tower?
Mind you, at least it would add some height to the team.
First time on this morning so & not posted for a while either because I was just “hoping” something might change & other holic followers were right & I just might have been wrong for the last 5 years.
As always holic great post you have captured the moment again.
Where do I start this, is now starting to get personal for me, all summer my boys have been very up saying Dad we are in for this one, dad we are in for that one, I’m now starting to sound like a Yid in my own house, because all I can say without looking them in the eye is; “let’s see who joins us before the close of the window”. Because I have now NO confidence in this management team ever completing any big signing EVER again.
This team & really I don’t care anymore whose fault it is, long ago that became unimportant the whole board is to blame, if the same mistakes are made time n time again. Anyway we are all being taken for idiots by them anyway, so we will never get a straight answer from them on who’s holding the check-book.
Back to my point on US ever signing a big player, the bid to Liverpool this summer was a joke £40m + £1, just shows them for what they are “CHEAP” sorry top players don’t come cheap.
I’ll carry-on now as I did last year; I’m not putting my hand in pocket to watch “The Ars” now until THEY do the same THEIR end. As I say now it’s personal because my boys are suffering because of this bunch of unless Cxxts, those manage my club.
Lars
Tremendous post. Very fair summary of where we are and what we need to do.
Re: the Eiffel Tower quotes, I think they’re being overplayed. The manager was asked why he doesn’t buy players to cover Weds night. He responded that it’s too late to do so, that he could fling money around blindly (I.e chuck it off the Eiffel Tower) and it would make no difference at this juncture – the deadline has passed.
It doesn’t address the issue of why the deadline was allowed to pass without new signings, but that’s not the question he was asked.
Plenty of legit things to criticise the club and manager for right now, no need to take quotes out of context and become enraged over them – which is exactly what half of Twitter did last night.
I just hope the manager appreciates that he could chuck his retained transfer budget off a major Parisian landmark on 3 Sept and it will be just as little help to him. Time to spend.
N7
“The manager was asked why he doesn’t buy players to cover Weds night. He responded that it’s too late to do so.”
Our manager thinks it is to late, and that is ok with you? Please, correct me if I am wrong, weren’t you yesterday one of those who said that it is not to late to make signings ? Because it is not just too late- it is impossible to buy players and register them for the CL Qualifiers.
And can I ask you the same question I would ask Arsene. What exactly was the thing he did this summer to avoid this type of situations where throwing money from the Eiffel Tower can’t solve our problems?
Lurky
I think I addressed both those points in my previous post.
It IS too late to buy someone for Weds night.
It’s NOT too late to buy players for the rest of the season.
I’ve also quite clearly said above that there remains a question as to why the deadline for player registration for Fener was allowed to pass without signings.
Manchester United have just attempted a bit of transfer business that Wenger still thinks he could do. Buy two excellent players for less than £30m and bid way under a previous, expired, buyout clause on one of them.
Bidding a combined £28m for Fellaini and Baines is the kind of deal that would give him such a boner all the blood would drain from his head and he would pass out.
The bid was, unsurprisingly, rejected out of hand but United could still pull it off because they are big enough to unsettle players with their interest.
Compare and contrast to Suarez. We bid £40m+1, Liverpool told us to bugger off and Suarez doesn’t care enough to force the move.
Get a bid in for Baines and Fellaini. Today.
If he is chucking the 154 Mill off the Eiffel tower on the 3rd it might not help him but it certainly will help me standing under it. See you all in the mob in Paris on the 3rd.
As long as AW & the rest follow the 154 Mill off the Eiffel tower, I’m happy with that. We may then get a board that can do business by default or should it be by de-fall!!
N7
Ok mate, I agree then. Too late for Wednesday Qualifier.
Just one thing. I remember couple of weeks ago when I started worrying about our CL qualifier and our lack of depth which might cost us- as it appears it will, because the same 15 players will need to play 6 games in two weeks.
You know, back in times when the bar was a zen garden, when everyone was drinking tea, writing haiku and thinking that the 2-Sept is the final day to bring reinforcements. You know the keep calm, keep zen- period?
Well, that was exactly the time when the Board or the manager needed to be put under pressure to make at least 2-3 signings, the pressure they are now under.
But now, as we tend to agree, it’s too late.
The pattern of overall management at the club over the last several years suggests that whoever has the power either does not see the problems or opportunities that have been apparent to fans, does not care or cannot respond to them.
The ‘communications’ we get at almost every level (still waiting for Stan) betray a contempt for and an unwillingness to listen to fans.
Frankly the lack of depth of this squad for the new season is criminally negligent management. I know we wanted to buy top, top, top stars this summer but to allow Back-up squad members to leave without adequate cover is naive.
The only way to get a message that the fans want things to change through to the person/people with power in this club is through his/their income streams:
1) eat and drink before arriving at the stadium; buy nothing in the stadium
2) no half time purchases
3) no food and drink in the stadium after the match
4) no programme purchases
5) absolutely no purchases from the club shop – if your nipper needs a scarf, buy from a stall
6) identify a match for the season ticket holders to boycott and silver and red members not to buy tickets, eg Stoke at home.
7) Boycott all our sponsors.
Fan power is limited but this would be far more effective than bin bags, black scarf marches or banners.
Baines cant live south of Macclesfield. He turns into a plate of tripe and onions. Well known fact.
Well said bathgooner.
But honestly I don’t believe our fans have the stomach for the fight that is needed with this board.
AW the man who regally speaks-out about how the game is going to hell in a handcart, with player’s n fees now out of control, is sitting with his hand-out again because apparently £10.5m a year is not enough for a man who has NOT brought a trophy through the door for eight years!!!
Really does that not tell you everything???
Far too many “it will be alright on the night” mentalities I’m afraid…
I resolved to stay away from all of the blogs and matters Arsenal over the summer which was a good call.
I’ve lost a lot of enthusiasm and didn’t fancy the Villa game but surprisingly managed to sell my tickets.
We can rant and rage on the blogs but it won’t have any influence on what is happening at the club – so my advice to all is to stop wasting your time.
If Wenger’s contract is renewed I will turn in my 2 tickets at the end of the year, I will still love the club and hope they do well. I’ll go back onto the season ticket wait list as soon as Wenger goes.
This is not a decision I will take lightly as I’ve got 2 great seats and I probably won’t get such good ones when I eventually get replacements.
As far as I can see this is the only way that I as a fan can help precipitate the obvious change that is so desperately needed.
A plate of tripe and opnions at left back sounds quite appealing, the state of our squad at the moment 🙂
What doesn’t make any sense at all, apart from not buying, is letting players like Miquel go on loan when we are so short on numbers. It’s not that he’s great or anything but he does have a smidgeon of experience. The thought of Jenkinson being planned to go on loan (according to Arseblog) is just baffling to me. It’s almost as if this is a plan to completely weaken the club and the team keep finishing fourth and fucking things up so they have to think of a new way to scupper shit.
I suggest noone gets their hopes up (not just for obvious reasons) because any signings made will only have the power to restore us to 4th place contenders, nothing much more than that.
If Wenger has decided against buying anyone who doesn’t significantly improve our league position/cup runs, he is predicating his lack of business on an invalid argument. It’s a vicious circle where lack of success makes people less likely to join.
If people really want to hit the club owners where it hurts, why not just not go to the game (unless of course you’ve already bought the ST…).
Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen,
It is 5.30 am over here in mclean and i have to be up in 2 hours for the office. Another day of hard labour to look forward to. As i was lying here trying to get some sleep , i was thinking about the events of the past two days. I couldnt help but let you know what i felt.
I was excited for saturday to arrive and waiting for the clock to hit 10 am so i could switch on a decent stream and watch a team i love. A grown man in love with an establishment and with 11 men running around in shorts. I do not know if i will ever have such a strong feeling of love and affection for something i have never had to pleasure to see in person. What started off so nicely soon turned into a nightmare. I wasn’t angry, but felt as low as i can think i have been watching arsenal. I have read all your comments and have agreed and dis-agreed with many of them. Now when i am thinking about saturday, the thing that disturbs me the most is that among all the anger and the justified resentment towards the board and the manager, we may have forgotten the tremendous miss-fortune that befell us on that day.
No club would have accounted for as many injuries as we saw. It just was the perfect storm. Everything that could have gone wrong for us did. A ref that allowed the opposition to play rough, a team that took that as a sign for making cynical challenges. Ox getting clattered, kos unfairly booked. Sagna nearly breaking his neck, gibbo with a swollen eye. That is just too much to account for. It would have been better to have cover yes, But the team lost because of these and i can empathize with Arsene in his press conference when he mentioned that could his team out there win the game? Yes. I do think so too. On any other given day, we would have won the game.This was just not that day.
Our inactivity during the window may be bordering on criminally negligent, but i hope we fans don’t paint a picture based on this one result. I love Arsene and it pains me to see him taunted this way. I do not know what differences are there in the club management, but i hope we give the man the respect he deserves. I , for my part, will wait till the window closes. If he doesn’t strengthen, i will accept that he has failed, but until then , i have to believe that he can turn it around. Sorry for the long post.
Here’s hoping for a better week for the gunners.
Cheers
Lurky
I don’t think that the lack of signings is causally related to the zen-like serenity of the bar last week, but – on the off-chance that Arsene and Ivan are reading the blog and taking their cues from our output – GET THE CHEQUEBOOK OUT LADS!
Every year is the same !
N7, I apologize for being sarcastic, you are clever and intelligent to understand why it is the case.
It may look stupid and naive to think that we as individuals can change the way of our club is running. But I think it is the same situation as if your government is doing things in a wrong way. There is not much you can do to change their policy, I agree, but to keep calm and silent and not react in any way is the same as you agree with them.
So, I will do everything in MY power to disagree with the way things are done, including presenting my disagreements in this bar, on twitter, wherever I can.
So,
GET THE CHEQUEBOOK OUT LADS! 🙂
Spring, summer, autumn ,winter.
Zips past the flailing fullback to the line and cuts it back towards the penalty spot….
Get…in?
Heh! Esso knows @ #189.
Naughty heh! @ Lee @ #186. Tongue firmly in cheek.
Well in, Porco.
Boom! Cheers boys.
*puts his winnings in the bank, leaves them there for eternity*
Lurky @ 197
No problem at all!
For what it’s worth, I think it’s important that we have a balance of views in here. The input of the likes of yourself, Steve T, Thierry and NB1 is really valuable in highlighting where things are going wrong and where we’re missing opportunities to be the “best we can be”.
On the other hand, I think it’s equally important to reflect that things are sometimes not quite as bleak as they seem. And we must recognise that some sections of the support respond to adversity and perhaps even outright incompetence not by railing at the club but by redoubling their efforts to get behind the team.
I honestly believe that both approaches are valid and can co-exist.
There is, of course, one thing we can all agree on, and that’s the need to GET THE CHEQUEBOOK OUT 🙂
My point, TTG, was that there is potential in this team though I wouldn’t for a moment suggest that it is anywhere near to being realized yet, and even then it will still be a couple of world-class players short.
One thing I did find interesting this morning in Blogs well written piece was the fact he alluded that the club had given private briefings about this summers plans – Surely to Fuck if that is the case why o why has it not been carried out, These are well paid men and knew the backlash would be far far far greater after building up hopes, To me it all points to them meaning to do big business for once, but being totally out manoueved and not having the nous to pull the big deals off in that case isn’t it about time they employed someone for that role – Youd have thought they would have learned a lesson when Dick Law spent two weeks getting the run around in Costa Rica signing Campbell, The club seems dysfunctional from top to bottom.
Terrific write-up ‘H, I must admit I didn’t envy you having to write that one up one bit. As usual, your piece hits all the right notes.
Don’t really think that I can add to what has already been said in the drinks in a million and one different ways by some very fine contributions.
As for the game, I am sure there have been countless occasions in my forty odd years of traipsing off to the Arsenal where matters have been a lot worse, but on Saturday I was struggling to think of one. The football on display was dire (no matter how bad the Referee was, Arsenal were worse), whilst the always powder-keg atmosphere became very very toxic when Villa’s third went in. I very nearly left before the end. It’s something I’ve never done before, and when it came to it, I couldn’t quite bring myself to do it. I watched the last 5 minutes next to the exit, but in truth I couldn’t wait to be out of there and back to the relative safety of The Tollie.
What has gone on this Summer defies all rational explanation, and God knows, many of us on here have tried. Is it because AW is dithering and changing his mind, is it because our negotiators can’t close out the deals, or is it because AW and IG have a completely dysfunctional and ultimately unworkable relationship? Maybe it’s a combination of all three. Who knows. We’re all just guessing.
What is beyond question is it’s very difficult to to see where on earth we go from here. It might get a whole lot worse before it gets better.Best buckle up.
On the plus side, it was great to see all the familiar faces (and a few new ones) on Saturday in The Tollie. When things are this bad, there is nowhere I’d rather be. Cheers to you all.
GPN @ 194
Nicely measured post. I agree.
Not surprised at the rant Lee, or the invention of the £10.5million figure.
Understand the hurt entirely, but not the desire to spread misinformation.
Hi everyone. Tabs, You are correct in saying none of us knows what the devil is going on between AW and IG. Perhaps if Kronke took a page from the late great George Steinbrenner, we wouldn’t be in such a pickle. George would have laid it out in no uncertain terms. Get the job done, or else. Just ask Billy Martin (oh how I loved Billy!). Sigh. Both Ivan and Arsene get paid mighty handsomely. They both have ‘people’ who cater to their every whim. Joe, you mentioned that they owe us nothing. I disagree! Their lifestyles include drivers, manicurists, cooks, masseuses … you get the picture 😉 These are luxurys many of us only experience while on vacation. And hair stylists and makeup artists, accountants, nannies … no, I refuse to feel sorry for them! I have sympathy for the OX. For Oskar, who is worrying about his home. For the traveling gooners (as Trev so eloquently described). We are now in a position to qualify for CL without not only needed additions but also replacements for those gone. Unbelievable and unacceptable. I still think we will get signings, but their inertia has jeopardized our chances for qualification, greatly. 🙁
Very hurtful holic….how far was I out then?
YOu are about £3m a year out I think. He gets roughly 9m euros, approx £7.5m a year
What a wonderful investment that is
/sarcasm
Thanks Cynic.
Yep once I start ranting I just can’t stop….
Nice to back though :-).
Saturdays result was a poor loss…bad performance, bad refereeing- shit happens. The angst that has swelled up to huge proportions within the supporters is the inability of the management of the club to effect a coherent transfer policy. To slim down the squad to the bare bones and trust to Lady Luck there would be no injuries was a huge gamble and one that has been found out on day one. Failure to plan is planning to fail! The basic squad left is of decent quality that needed a little sprinkle of stardust and meaningful squad fillers to kick on to challenge for higher position and keep a safe gap from those clinging to our heels. There is still time to put this right – better late than never. Failure to do so will push the supporters over the edge and AW’s time will come to an eventual un-pleasant ending – something totally undeserved. Just do it and earn your high ended salaries.
Meanwhile, lets move onto the next game – we can still put a decent 11 players on the pitch and Fernabache are beatable.
COYRRG
You just gave him a 50% pay rise. You’re a worse CEO than Ivan! 😉
Bath @ #188
That’s a decent list of actions items or should that be no-action items?
The food+drink and sponsor led boycotting is relatively easy to do for most. Getting an en masse boycott for any home game is probably nigh-on impossible and would be horrible for our players to endure – this situation is not of their making.
In any case, with the current tinder box / caustic atmos at The Ems, many will stay away so the longer term effect could be similar.
I hate that I am agreeing with you on such matters 🙁
Yep I’d better not apply when Ivan throws in the towel, but I could be right on the AW front by the end of the season though holic….
Sky reporting we’ve had a bid for Cabaye rejected.
Not looking good one bit!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23750387
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsene-wenger-sizes-up-35m-bid-for-swansea-pair-8774357.html
We are surely not going to spend £35m on Michu and Williams, who are 27 and 28 years old, respectively?
Since the Villa game, we seem to be getting linked with dozens of players. A sign that something’s going on, or just the media playing guessing games? Probably the latter.
Sky now saying the Cabaye bid is £10m. If that’s true I’m going to speculate that Newcastle might just reject it.
Not a massive fan of Boycott or a boycott.
Saying that I think a boycott would be easy if we drop into the Europa League, there’d probably be plenty of empty seats.
If we do qualify and make some decent signings the need for such action lessens.
Sky now say we’ve offered £20m for Pogba.
Bollocks to this, they’re just making it all up.
What about a peaceful protest. Instead of boycotting a home game, supporters should attend in droves. Cheer our lads on. Then refuse to leave, after the game. A sleep in, if you will. Or you could encourage a massive call in, jamming the phone lines. I would prefer the first option, might be fun. 😉
We will be linked with practically anyone now!
Too late now because selling clubs know we are desperate and the price will go up and up. This will mean we are most likely to end up with players who aren’t as good as we need, for more than they are worth, because we refused to pay a little more than we wanted for players who were top class.
Refusing to even bid for Higuain is not going to look clever if they end up paying £25m for bloody Michu. He had a great season last year but I can think of a few players who had one good season then vanished. £25m for him is a joke, if we pay it.
Excellent suggestion at 225, it would be positive action and focus enormous attention to bring matters to a head. Our transfer deadline day was effectively last Friday because of the Champions League qualifier. It is utter negligence and incompetence on the part of the Gazidis and Wenger to have not spent even £1 on the squad in the transfer window with the result that we start the season with a squad of some 18 first team players. There is no excuse for the position we find ourselves in and I hope the majority shareholder and the Chairman are discussing what action to take on 3 September.
abb @ 225
That’s a genuinely excellent suggestion.
I would certainly respect people a lot more for refusing to leave than for heading out early or not attending at all.
Let’s have a lock-in with 55,000 of us, and others on the stadium concourse. A massive show of commitment and passion for the club – see if we can shame them into sorting it all out.
Cynic
It’s certainly too late to land the players that we wanted to sign instead we have to sign players who were not on the priority list so to speak!
Too little too late and same old stuff it being repeated for the past three seasons okay maybe two seasons!
Enough is enough!
They do not care what the fans think, good or bad. All they will care about is revenue losses. If you sit in or leave early, they still have your money.
Cynic @ 227
Totally agree re: Michu.
Not sure I agree re: player prices. We tend to assume that we’ll get gouged if we bid now, but if we look at recent experience, player prices often fall as the window approaches.
Arteta was quoted to us for £20m, but left for half that because of the late bid. Lloris went to the LWCs for peanuts because the deal ended up being done late.
I’m not sure it’s clear cut either way – suspect price movements will depend very much on individual circumstances, and we should still be able to find some value out there.
Cynic, you make good points but what exactly do we need Baines for?
As I typed 232 it’s now being reported that Newcastle want £30m for Cabaye. Shows what I know!
Obviously, this is one player in respect of whom “value” is not on the menu.
Because he is a better left back than anything we currently have, we don’t have a fit left back anyway so why not buy him and then sell one of Gibbs or Monreal in January?
Improve the team, fill an immediate gap in the side.
I like Baines a lot. But he’ll be 29 in December, and he’d probably cost about £20m, assuming we could fight off Utd (which I doubt we could).
Suspect the £20m may be better spent elsewhere. If we wanted Baines January would have been the moment to move.
Another thing in Baines’ favour is that he is very rarely injured. Missed 13 league games in five years, and some of those were probably through suspension.
Cent, it all depends if the selling club want to unload. Lyonnaise were / are still financially stricken, so them getting a fee of £8-11 million for Loris (not sure of actal amount) and a heavy salary off their books was good for them -unfortunately the Spuds who got the bargain. Newcastle not so desparate for cash, so will hold out for as much money as possible – I guesstimate £15 million in the current scenario.
N7 Interesting with Sky suddenly reporting supposed bids. Could be we are leaking information to show that we are trying to bring players in unlike previously where information of our working on transfers 24/7 seemed rather sparse.
Hey Joeos and N7, thanks! I always admired Ghandi and still believe you can protest in a peaceful, respectful manner. We could lock arms together and chant (Beatles) “All we are saying, is give our club a chance!” Hippie gooners 🙂
To be honest I doubt we could fight off fucking Sunderland if they wanted a player we wanted, the way things are going.
Please see 189 re: Baines.
Uplympian @238
I was wondering the same thing.
I would find it extremely concerning if, having gone about our business privately all summer, we are now leaking info all over the shop in an attempt to appease supporters.
The Arsenal-Villa match was really a bummer for all the Arsenal fans, emotions flying high, lots of frustration, anger, disappointment and much more, and this was fueled by the fact that the manager had not signed any one, let alone a big signing, and the referee who really should brush up his basics again, but leaving all these board, managerial, and premier league issues aside, if we just look at the playing XI who took the field for Arsenal, and who lost 3-1, amidst the booing of the fans, did we deserve to loose by that margin, did we really play that bad??did we??
To start from the start, giroud’s goal had set the momentum for us, the team had come out all guns blazing, every one looked in sync and the result was a goal in under 10 minutes… and then.. head bang struck us, Gibbs was injured and jenkinson came on, sagna was switched to LB and jenkinson went to RB position, although sagna did cover up nicely but that’s not his usual area of attack and was having difficulty putting in crosses in a way he would have done at RB,even after this the team was good going forward, ROSCISKY was brilliant and was part of almost all the chances we created, and then Szczesny brought down Agbonlahor, he could have done a little better in one-on-on situation, but still a penalty was awarded and he did sort of redeem himself only for luck to intervene and give benteke another go which he converted, and we were level at emirates, that was the goal that hit the confidence the most, and after that all went downhill the sync was lost, Ox was injured, ramsey had taken a knock and in the 2nd half referee’s decisions hit an all time low, that just mounted up the frustration on players, even AW was seen chatting frantically with the linesman, but on the pitch players were working hard and were trying to restore the lead, but nothing went our away after those 1st 10 mins, and then another penalty, there’s still a debate on, if it was a fair challenge, but all these years of watching football I think it was a fair challenge, but ref. had the last word and a penalty was scored, this time cleanly.
Even after 2-1 down the players were working positions and creating chances, but could not find the equalizer, and villa scored again on the counter, that goal and injury to sagna ended the day, that could have been different for Arsenal…
Among all the bad referring, penalties, cards, booing of the manager for not signing a big player, and hindi commentary on star cricket, we almost forgot to acknowledge the fact that the players gave there all to give us fans a perfect start, and were on course of doing it when one after another unfortunate events happened(including the ref.) and the result went against us.
I think I saw a good Arsenal team, who can become great.
They din’t deserve to loose at all, and surely not loose by a 3-1 margin, because they did not play bad at all, I will still cheer them and will pray that luck be with us this time(if not bias at least neutral) and a decent ref.
Onto CL qualifiers now… Good luck team!!!! COYG!!!!!Arsenal for life!!!!!
P.s: Among all the rumours, I don’t think we need a forward that badly, what we do need is a quality DM and quality cover for LB and CB, coz in case of injury we really don’t have a good back up as we saw in the last match.
ABB, nice suggestion Re sitting in after a game as a way of showing discontent, someone on Twitter suggested the same a couple of days ago.
If anyone is looking for how to criticise something/someone without coming across as a spoilt, bitter, hateful, indecent, jealous or envious ex-girlfriend then see TaBS @207, great piece.
Afternoon all.
Once again too many great posts to mention you all.
We are surely not going to spend £35m on Michu and Williams, who are 27 and 28 years old, respectively?
I’m afraid that’s where we are now, an entire summer of flaffing about has brought us to this place, earlier in this bar I used the words -“we are going to get fleeced”, I stand by that statement Basic rule of economics, supply and demand dictate prices. Swansea don’t need to sell and we are down to our bare bones already. If we were serious about those two players a bid of around 25mill would have probably been enough to land them*… back in July, but no, the window is open until Sep 2 so let’s wait until then.
The chances that the prices of players are going to drop, especially in the PL due to the increased TV revenue, is virtually nil. If we are looking for bargains, which is a pretty suicidal policy to begin with, then we need to be looking at clubs on the brink, Anci pansi (or whatever they’re called) from Russia may be willing to do a bit of a fire sale due to financial Barney, but again, this shouldn’t be a serious way for a club to do it’s business.
*A speculative price, I have no idea what the value was then, but I seem to remember that we had already balked at a 10mil tag on Williams, and I put Michu at about 15mill.
Cynic, I would guess that Yanited would match our offer on principle and no doubting who Baines would then choose. Personally I believe there are several more positions than LB that should be given priority.
abb @ 239: It is Gandhi not ‘Ghandi’, a common mistake by Americans. :–)
He was a politician extraordinaire, very tactical. The non-violent protests were excellent tools of a political movement. 🙂
A sit-in at the Emirates after the game by 50000 odd fans with the majority of them somewhat drunk? I hope somewhat thought of the logistics of the bathrooms etc. 🙂
Maybe we are taking all this a little too seriously. There are so many issues and so many places in the world that can be genuinely helped with even a fraction of that commitment.
It is but a sport. I despise the state of affairs our beloved team has been put into due to mismanagement/negligence/incompetence. But it is a sport. However hard that might be to accept in our current state of mind. It means a great many thing to us. But it really is a sport.
Oops, sorry, forgot to close the italics. 😳
H2H thought that would be case! 🙂
Re: possible alternative protests, how’s THIS for an option that would bring the so-called club hierarchy to their so-called knees; one word………………….. vuvuzelas.
Cabaye is worth nowhere near 30 mil. and we’l look like fools for overpaying, simple b/c we can. Exhibit A: Andy Carrol.
Bains – and I will get a lot of heat for this – he’s flavor of the month. And why, when Gibbs had a stellar last season and we have Monreal as a very good backup, would we buy ANOTHER LB? Simple – we wouldn’t and I hope it does NOT happen. Would be a sign of desparation, nothing more.
Ironically, AW finds himself in just the situation he obviously loathes: no option but to overpay for warm bodies that he (seemingly) does not want. The club’s fault, as this looks to be a massive failing across many fronts. No shortage of blame. And Dick Law – could this man manage to buy ice from eskimos?
I do suspect, however, that a lot of the outpouring is over-reaction. Those calling for AW’s head, i believe, have lost the plot and are letting anger cloud their judgment.
Two weeks to go and I’ve not lost all hope that cooler heads will prevail and most, if not all, of the players the team needs are bought.
Alas, the fans are justified to be angry … AFC look so, so foolish.
The vuvlelas idea is brilliant, btw.
I hope the vuvuzela idea is not hijacked by BSM who will produce their own version which will sound painfully more annoying.
Pardon N7?
N7 I hate those things! But they certainly could do the trick!
Homer @ 251: I had mentioned in in the earlier set of drinks on the aftermath of the loss, the inevitable outcome of this would be of a dark irony : we will end up buying the types of players that we apparently didn’t want to in the first place because we didn’t want attempt to buy them in the first place, namely squad players and not the ‘super top’ quality. And especially if we end up paying the price that we had reserved in our minds for the ‘super top’ quality.
That alone, may force the hierarchy to rethink their strategy or lack thereof in the transfer market because even the fig leaf of an excuse of ‘efficiency’ would no longer make sense.
Dr Faustus.
I’m afraid I couldn’t disagree more.
Football is not just a sport, not where I’m from anyway. It’s an integrical part of your identidy, it’s who you are, it’s more then a cult, it’s almost a religion, except that a heck of a lot more people go to worship.
a sport can indeed make your tempreture rise, invoke your emotions, I remember having strong feelings while watching the Olympics last year, good stuff, but do you really think that I have watched a rowing race, a tae kwon do bout or a track and field event since? No way Jose, that to me is sport, football supporting is a life long commitment, in the season it’s almost like a full time job. Look at the amount of time we all dedicate to it just here.
I do agree that there are much worse things going on in the world, ofcourse there are, the world can be a nasty place, that’s why football can be so important, also as an escapism. I’ll also agree that it’s not worth exploding over something we have no control over, but that is in a way also missing the whole point. You can’t have passion without being passionate and that can spill over when things seem to be spinning out of control.
This probably isn’t the worst shape we’ve been in since I’ve supported the club, but like others, I can’t remember feeling worse about the start of a campaign. This has nothing to do with the defeat to Villa, things like that happen, losing is as much a part of the game as winning, you have to man up and accept it. But I feel betrayed (yes, sorry that is the word) by those that promised so much. Like I said before, it shouldn’t have been like this. Irrational as it may seem, it does bother me.
Just a sport? I think not.
We finally signed a player! 🙂
http://arsenalyouth.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/arsenal-sign-swedish-youngster-kristopher-da-graca/?
I believe he will be travelling to Fenerbahce?
@252
The Black Vuvuzela Movement.
Now THERE’s a scary prospect.
I have to say guys the amount of drinks on here today that are referring to Saturday’s game being the catalyst to all this “overreaction” is quite simply undeliverable of course it’s not, the whole point is that anyone who have had their eyes open for the last 5-6 years knew this would eventually happen. & that’s why we now have an outcry (all be it too late). We should have been reacting to their lies years ago.
The main problem this summer apart from them never being serious about spending big on big players, as I said earlier you don’t get great player on the cheap, so they should have stopped fxxking about & spent 2 months ago. anyway back to our summer their whole driver this summer has been getting the dross off the books now look @ the state of us 14 first team players fit to play, but it don’t surprise me in the slightest, as it their way make a profit first then worry about the state of the team later, because they know the fans Will Stomach it year after year…..
Cheers Dr. F. Pardon my imperfect backdrinking!
Another thought:
The AST publicly holding up the board seems a mistake. Its the publicly part that concerns me. I’m thinking about it like this: what do we as supporter want? To vent, or to see the team win titles?
The AST surely wants the latter, but are putting the venting first b/c they are angry [and justifiably so, I might add].
Consider: For quite a few years now, many, if not all players that come to AFC cite one reason – ONE – for coming to Arsenal. Its because of Arsene Wenger, who is considered by most to be one of the greatest living managers. They come not for the staduim, or the City, or the weather – but to play for AW. AW has helped make AFC a big club and the two are fairly intertwined. I’m not saying he did it by himself, mind.
If you are a “world class” footballer and have a few options, how attractive is a club that just fired one of the world’s greatest (or at least most respected) living managers and its fans are in open rebellion? Not very, I’d say. Consider also the toxic fumes the current players are inhaling from such an environment.
That AW is a big name gives him power, and I certainly agree that too much power is bad. But consider the opposite….
There are no easy answers here.
There is more at stake here than losing one football match. For me, its too early to call AW a failure, or past it, or to write the season off. That’s all I’m saying.
Now I really must get back to something resembling productivity.
Cheers all.
and that post was not meant to sound patronizing, but i just realized that it might be mistook that way.
H2H @ 256: A very lovely honest and passionate opinion.
There are some points I would disagree with (but without any disrespect to how you feel), simply because I am the argumentative type. :–)
The key disagreement: I think you can be passionate about something without letting that passion consume all sense of perspective (not saying it did it you, I find your utterances as reasonable and funny as ever). Lot of posters recently here have used the examples of Zen-serenity-meditation , albeit laughingly, as a modality of psychological coping mechanism when the world around you moves in hideously absurd directions. They were not too far from the truth, there is a thing call ‘middle way’ in Buddhist teachings that demonstrates how one can live in an engaged manner in the throes of everyday chaos and disappointments without being consumed by the world.
Not that I am saying all football fans must chant ‘Om Manipadme Hum’ either. :–) I am saying is that we can feel as strongly as we want, and be critical of failures, we may want to see change — and I do all of these — but at the end of the day the intense reality of our feelings may be disproportionate (from an onlooker’s perspective) with the target of those feelings. It is hard for us to accept. I know.
You used religion and cult as analogies for the intensity of football fans. I sincerely hope supporters don’t display the predilection for the extremes that religious or cult members are capable of.
Football is neither religion, nor cult, but also neither just a Spectacle nor just an entertainment. It is Football, with its own composite elements of Art, science, passion, and a strange collective psychological attachment that make us all behave and do rather silly things in name of supporting.
While living the hurt of a failure of the team, I just think we should be humble enough to not lose the sense and proportion of that failure in the wider scheme of things.
In that context, I think a crowd of relatively well-heeled well-fed well-educated people storming a football stadium as a protest is a bit daft. Remember how we all laughed at the ‘protests’ at Liverpool’s previous owners or in Old Toilet against the Glazers? Yes, those are that ridiculous. And remain so.
Homer @ 261: Based on recent set of comments from different footballers joining in the last few years — the interviews in the Arsenal official magazine are often very perceptive — and general observation about what players tend to stay I think the reasons Arsenal remain an attractive proposition:
(a) The club as a whole has a fantastic fundamental support set-up ranging from facilities to the way the players and their families are eased into a new country/culture/language/team. In Arteta’s word it has the best set-up for footballing success that he has ever seen. Much of these have been overseen by Arsene so credit goes to him, but one would think that these are in good enough of an auto-pilot mode.
(b) Arsene Wenger.
(c) London.
(d) Champions League.
(e) Arsenal of the 98-04 vintage as many of these players still remain in awe of those teams and find it an attractive proposal to play for the same club.
(c) and (d) are something we do not have sole claims for, of course. :–)
Saturday’s ref dropped for the next round of games.
Hopefully from a great height.
Heh @265.
If the ref can be dropped for making bad decisions, can’t some of those decisions, like Kos’ red-card, be rescinded?
Cent @ 266
That would make far too much sense for the FA.
Better to just let him fcuk us sideways and then quietly remove him from duty without getting into the messy details of why you’re doing so.
Hey all.
Took some “time off” to take stock of the whole thing, try to calm down and see where it all led me.
Frankly, I got to the point were I felt that it would not led me anywhere. A few hours away simply don’t change years of seeing this happening and wondering why so few could see it too (or at least why so few were refusing to admit what they could see). I commented a long time ago that the brick wall with barbed wire and broken bottles on top that forms the divide in opinion was the main reason we were failing to actually find any real solutions to the problems and said wall would probably not come down for as long as Arsene was in charge. That has not changed one iota, but there are a lot of people taking the risk of climbing over it. Interesting and surprising times and a genuine show of the sea change taking place.
I would like to thank those that have been kind in their appraisal of my views and, bar a small group that have almost always been at least open-minded enough to debate me here, it is also telling that some of those have been vehemently opposed to almost anything that I felt in the past are now at least engaging me in conversation. Some may ask why I feel that important, maybe even accuse me of simply wishing to be “right” (whatever the feck that would be “right” at a time like this?!) but I am very conscious of the fact that the Guvnor here writes the introduction to the piece and we then fill out the rest of the copy. ‘Holic, I have always, and I genuinely hope you would agree, been very respectful towards your views, mainly because we differ very little on almost all things AFC, and have always attempted to at least show my gratitude for what you write, the way you write it and why you choose to do so whilst providing such a wonderful place to debate for those that choose to do so.
Been doing some serious back-drinking both here and in the previous bar and, whilst I would genuinely love to, given the quality of what has been said from both sides of “the wall”, I simply cannot get myself so wound up again by doing so.
There are a couple of more recent posts that I wanted to reply to though.
“Of the present team:
Woj could be better than Lehman
Sagna is better than Lauren
Kos-BFG will be on a par with Campbell-Toure
Gibbs may be as good as Cole
Ramsey isn’t Viera 2
Arteta is on a par with Gilberto
Theo could be better than Freddie, if he can find consistency
Jack may be as good as Dennis, but they’ll never be the same sort of player,
Santi is’nt quite Bobby
Giroud isn’t Thiery.”
Sorry, but that is, in my humble opinion, so, so, so wrong that I am surprised that the words came from Ned. The ultimate knee-jerk opinion from the other side of that damned wall. I offer the following in response:
1. Potential does not win trophies, ability does and Woj has never actually managed to BE better than Lehmann, thus your point is moot. 1-0 to the Invincibles.
2. Sagna WAS certainly better than Lauren for a couple of seasons, maybe even a couple more, but his total inability to cross a ball to an Arsenal player (let alone actually not just gt his cross blocked by the first defender) renders his contribution solely defensive. I do remember how much stick he used to get even before having one and a half wretched seasons. Maybe he is finding some form again but right now there is little between the two and it is the here and now that counts. Still 1-0 although a tight decision, I admit.
3. Kos-BFG is at best a work in progress that, due to Kos being utterly unable to figure out that getting turned by a quick forward tends to end up with a goal or a red card or both, the time he spends on he sidelines means that he fails to find any real consistency for us whilst the totally devoid of pace German is the main reason we constantly find ourselves with Kos being left to try and clean up the mess he makes when failing to find himself with any cover when he does make a mistake. Campbell and Toure both had strength, power and pace and could both smell danger a mile off. I actually believe that The Invincibles defence is the one thing that Wenger deserves much more praise for than he gets but we still seem to believe here, from Arsenal fans no less, that he inherited the defence that won him all his past glories. Simply not so and 3-0 (a goal for each player)
4. Gibbs may be as good as Cole?! Seriously?! So may I then, in the same parallel universe scenario required to even begin to believe that could be true. If he wasn’t made of china it might fucking help. That is like saying Diaby is the new Vieira…The truth is that we will never, EVER know and that has been so fucking obvious for so many fucking years, it is tantamount to negligence on the part of the people that choose to renew their contracts every time. No chance Gibbs even gets a look in and I would even go as far as running the risk of saying that nobody in this bar could possibly agree with you on this point. 4-0
5. Ramsey is not even Vieira’s boot boy. Good kid with bags of potential and no actual obvious position to play in. You called that one spot on. 5-0
6. Arteta may be on a par with Gilberto, although they actually play very different roles for the team due to the complete lack of a Vieira 2 as mentioned before. That said, it is not his fault. Still 5-0, but the ball may have clipped to bar on its was out of play.
7. But Theo has NEVER found the consistency required to be either a real asset to the side (playing like two totally different players from match to match, sometimes even half to half, with no warning as to which one will show up is tantamount to needing a 4th substitution every other game. Not helpful). Freddie WAS consistent for a long period of time. Not even a close call this one. 6-0
8. LJW is a great prospect and may even be the best young player Arsenal have produced/developed since Ca$hley, but DB10?! Are we drinking?! (Oh, yes, ok!) Seriously, this is like comparing Roy Keane to Johan Cruyff! In reality, and as much as we want him to succeed and prove that the potential we see can actually be converted into a world class player, even then he would NEVER be in the same class as Dennis. In reality he has yet to put in three 8/10 performances in a row. Not even in the same league as DB10 and actually this was where you convinced me to reply. Fuck, like Ramsey, nobody even knows what his best position is yet. 7-0 (and the truth is I would love to award extra goals for the gulf in class here but I shall not referee this match in the style of Saturday!)
9. Robert Pires was possibly the most underrated player of his generation, although almost everybody rated him as the best part of world class! This guy had so much skill and vision it was frightening. Santi has a lovely turn and an eye for a decent pass but slashing away from 25-yards all afternoon only to watch the ball fly into the stands is a long, LONG way off what Pires brought to our side. Again, huge gulf in class. 8-0
10. Not even going there. 9-0.
Sorry, but the truth is your decision to compare the two sides shows exactly how far we have fallen. We have a team that would get utterly destroyed by the Invincibles and that is not what we were promised. As ever, what we were promised (and, for the record I never asked them to promise me anything, they chose to do so) was a “shift in the balance of power.” Remember that? When Arsene was yapping away about how this was a beginning…Right before season ticket prices rocketed and then dismantling the side in about 20 minutes flat. The following period has only seen that erosion exacerbated and leave us a shell of the team we once were and were promised we would continue to be.
And that is EXACTLY what I came up with over the past day or so. When all is said and done, THEY promised, THEY charged the fans for that promise and THEY failed to deliver whilst decimating first the team and now the squad.
I know not all will agree with all of my assessment of the difference between the two sides, but I think that we can ALL agree that the VERY BEST XI players we can think of from the current squad (that has been demonstrated to Arsene time and time again will rarely line up together due to injuries and suspensions) is not a patch on the team that went 49 games unbeaten.
But you raise an interesting point in what you did NOT say…
The squad players back then included:
Clichy, Parlour, Keown, Reyes, Wiltord, Edu, Kanu and even a kid called Fabregas (whatever happened to him? Make anything of himself?!??!!!) Feck, we even bought RvP that same year!
And I contest that you could probably change out the members of the team they played stand-in for and The Invincibles would STILL win our little imaginary football match.
Not even a fair fight, let alone a worthwhile comparison.
Ok, so that went on a lot longer than I expected (a woeful habit, but a habit that I and many here are probably getting used to!) so I will make the rest quick:
David Dein would be mental to even THINK about getting involved with the shower of shite that is the current management structure of the club. Talk about destroying any respect your past glories may afford you (oops, Arsene!)
Cabaye at £10m sounds like it was leaked directly from the increasingly piss-poor AFC marketing department. A desperate play to look interested in decent players whilst not actually taking the risk of getting one. Lest we forget that this marketing department has at its head a man who claimed we were so rich we could buy Rooneys all day long. Fucking brilliant strategist if ever there was one.
That said, if we actually do follow up with a sensible bid (and by sensible we must remember that thanks to the aforementioned village idiot running the commercial business, EVERYBODY in the known universe knows we have a huge stack of cash to spend and are now totally and utterly fucked if we don’t spend it) and even sign the player the only question has to be why did we wait so fucking long once we knew that Song was going out the door. Seriously, is there anybody, ANYBODY here that didn’t see the Cabaye shaped hole that Song left behind?!
Michu and Williams…£35m…Again, due to the total fucking mess we find ourselves in, they will not let them go for anything less than £40-45m the pair and I would be shocked if they let them both go at all. Of course, Michu or Higuain is the question that would then rear its fuck-ugly head and, as Wenger loves getting value for money, £35m for the 25 year old Argentinian with a 137 goals in 305 games record would suddenly look like a bargain straight from heaven especially if we pay something like £25m for a player with 2 years more on the clock and with 80 goals from 327! No comparison, simply none.
Baines…Forget it. Not worth thinking for a second that he will even consider becoming part of this drama when he can go and play for the most decorated EPL team in history, reigning champions and where we sold our best player to only 12 months ago.
Gutted about The Ox too.
BUT…
And here comes the smackdown…!
I have made a decision based on everything i can manage to think of regarding where we currently find ourselves. Wenger may not be the man to take us to the level that he once did, Gazidis may be a PR fool and Stan may be a shallow wanker with no idea what owning a football club actually means but the same three have been responsible for various successes and are clearly not as thick as they appear at times.
So…
I believe that there may still be a plan, they may even still be working it through and they may even surprise us before the end of the window. That is not to say that they should not all be driven out of their offices at the ends of pitchforks with sharp points if we fail to qualify for the Champions League proper, but I am resigned to hoping that this is the case and that there is a product at the end of this summer worth waiting for.
Am I really this foolish?!
Aren’t we all?!??!
So let’s just see where this is all heading now. Too late to jump ship, that was around 2008. Now we get what we paid for, at least we hope we do.
There must be a plan, right?!
Have a great day all.
Sadly true, N7.
A sit in AFTER the game?
And miss out on a yard of ale at The Tollington? Fuck that. 😛
And in any event, there are a sizeable number of plastics who can’t “sit-in” until the final whistle even when we are winning so back to the drawing board.
I suggest that rather than buy the over-priced fizzy beer on the concourse that you instead send a contribution to the Feelgood Foundation paypal account….. 😉
Thierry – I enjoyed that, even the bits I didn’t agree with!
One quick question on Cabaye: what would you be willing to pay for him, and where would you start the bidding?
Maybe protest about fire stations closing down, the eradication of the NHS , institutionalised paedophelia,bankers spunking public money, green spaces being destroyed for profit, media hate campaigns against the sick, disabled and destitute, corrupt politicians with suspect expense accounts.
Then settle down , have a laugh with your compadres supporting your team through thick and thin and thank Buddha, Jesus, Krishna ,Mohammed and Ra Ra the sun Goddess that you are not a fucking s***s fan.
Just a thought
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
First belly laugh in 48 hours. No matter how bad it gets we will never be as utterly cuntish as this mob. Time to point the Canons outwards again.
Thank you Tottenham (again).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90TUbQixtsA
Heh @ 272
That’s the stuff.
tabs @ 273
Jesus wept. They always find a way to cheer us up, don’t they?
If Carlsberg did local rivals….
Priceless N7. What would we do without ’em eh? 🙂
H2H @ 256
Wonderful stuff and nailed it totally.
I wonder if you might have even nailed more than you bargained for (something I am sure a friend once thought in Thailand!)…
“You can’t have passion without being passionate…”
Maybe this is why the atmosphere at the Grove is so very lifeless for such long periods, mainly when things are going indifferently, it seems.
The debate has been bent into something not so much an “AFC or not”, but a “Wenger or not”, so much and by so few, that whatever side you fall on (and that is the REAL problem here, you MUST take a side, whether you want to or not – Criticise and you are “Wenger Ahhhht” – or more recently a “Black Scarfer” – Support and you are an “AKB” with literally NO ,middle ground on offer).
Kinda rips a lot of the passion out of it, when you think about it.
I currently only have internet access from work, so I haven’t been able to backdrink completely. I have, I think, got a reasonable flavour of the opinions that are being generally expressed.
Here’s the thing.
A lot of stuff has happened, or not happened over the summer that we all (I believe) disagree with to a greater or lesser extent.
The major disappointment is the lack of new signings.
Currently, the most popular explanation of this is that Stan Kroenke and/or the board and/or Ars`ne Wenger are doing something wrong deliberately. I don’t accept this.
I believe that a more likely explanation is that those responsible are doing all they can to recruit some more players and have, so far, been unsuccessful. This, in turn, may be because they are no good at doing this job, that they haven’t been able to recruit the calibre of player that they’re currently after for so long that they have forgotten how to do it, or because they are being undermined by other members of the club. I think the middle possibility is the most likely.
If you wish to persuade me, please do so in short drinks that I can read in the odd snatched five minutes here and there, and please no arguments along the lines of “Wenger has failed to spend any money for the past n years, this was clearly because he didn’t want to so he’s clearly not going to spend any this year”. Whenever I use phrases like “clearly” in a discussion, it means “this is something I hope is true and/or I believe to be true but that I can’tprove, I hope no-one notices the lack of supporting evidence”. I assume others mean the same thing.
Thierry, I second that (or am I thirding it because N7 got there first?).
That was a considered and well-argued post and the Atrocious Triumvirate residing over the unholy mess that they’ve made would do well to read it. Actually what would be the point, they’ve shown total disregard for the opinions of virtually everyone in football outside their circle. As you were, bean counters.
Sorry but I’ve run out of excuses and goodwill for this lot.
N7,
Thank you sir!
Regards Cabaye, in the current market, premiership experience, seems a decent player, young and probably quite well thought of where he currently plays (thus certain to attract a bit of negative PR for the NUFC board from their fans) I would say about £15-18m is about right.
Unfortunately the maths do not and their. Now you have to factor in the unbelievable statement by Gazidis, the anger directed at the entire board, Wenger and, worse, the players themselves (fuck me, we even booed Higuain!), the gaping wounds that exist in our team/squad and the fact that it is so late in the day and you can probably chuck another £10m on the fire.
So, realistically, £15-18m but Arsenal-ly £25-28m. Far too much and nothing surprising, all at once 🙁
larry @ 272:
You are, of course, completely right when you rationalise things like that…
And therein lies the problem. Supporting a football club was NEVER a rational pastime.
Thierry
Ugh. I’d hate to see us spend £28m on Cabaye.
Personally, I value him at £15-17m. That’s about what I’d want to pay. Any more than that any we may as well be going for Fellaini.
Based on that valuation, I’d probably have opened the bidding at about £12m.
The more I think about this, the more I begin to wonder whether one of the problems this summer (also being experienced by Utd) is that player valuations seem to be in total flux. Not an excuse for inactivity – other clubs seem to have overcome the issue – just think it’s telling that it’s really hard to work out exactly what the price should be for a player like Cabaye.
Pangloss,
How about:
CLEARLY we need more and better quality players than the ones that we have and the club had years of planning time (their words) to get this right in a decent and timely fashion.
Surely that is a clearly that means NONE of the things you claim it to mean?!
tabs@273, i could only get through about a minute and a half of that before becoming sick. thank god for tottenham. and this bar.
even if worse comes to worse, and wenger is out, no new players, and a threadbare squad of no-hopers half injured achieving nothing for the next decade, arsenal is mine heart.
N7,
Totally agree… Yuck! But probably about what we will part with to get him, should we do so. Maybe a bit less but anything under £23m will surely be a bargain given the entire situation in play.
One thing regarding the odd market we are seeing…I actually believe that the comments of Gazidis probably had a much larger effect on that than most people have considered. For example, why was Higuain worth £34.5m? Probably because Madrid were more than happy to believe that we would pay such a huge amount if push came to shove and thus Napoli, who had a similar same problem after the massive amount of cash the world knew they had for Cavani, were never going to get a “decent” deal and so paid “indecent” money.
There is more to it, obviously:
Moyes has also announced that United have shiteloads to spend and with the shadow of SAF looming large, everybody knows he is keen to spend it.
The Special Needs One going back to Chel$ki, with his and Roman’s record of player purchases reunited once more, regardless of JM claiming that he is happy with the squad he has (whilst courting Rooney – methinks he doth protest too much!)
PSG, Monaco et al don’t help matters either, so IG is not solely to blame, but certainly did not help matters. Actually, I would say he made them worse by at least a multiple of 2.
Me @ 280:
How the feck did you get from thinking “Unfortunately the maths don’t end there.” to writing “Unfortunately the maths don’t and their.”?!
Muppet!!!
TaBS!!!!! HAHAHAHAA! Well in there sir!
Truth is, even though the shite from dahn tha rowd may have a better squad, possibly even a better team than us right now, they will always be a classless set of cunts when all is said and done!
Will look a little more ordinary again once the chimp goes and their newly purchased silk purses turn to sows ears at Stoke on a winter night too!
TaBs 273. Hahahaha. You & Black Gold… Pure Genius 🙂
Thierry @ 285
As you know, I generally try to be understanding of the club’s actions and will look for some sort of explanation that makes sense of it all.
However, I am at an absolute loss to make sense of Ivan’s comments back in June. They’ve done us enormous harm, both in terms of our negotiating position, and also in terms of fan expectation. His heightening of expectation (and it wasn’t only him, but mainly so) has played a major role in turning what it is currently a very bad situation into an out-and-out crisis.
Cabaye is a classic example. If you’d told me on the first day of the window we’d bid for him I’d have been pretty happy. Not now. Now, my first thought is “fcuk’s sake – he’s hardly Lars Bender, is he?”.
To be honest, my big worry about the Gazidis interview is that he gave it with the sole intention of placing pressure on Arsene to spend. Whatever your view of our manager, I think we can probably all agree that he has never been a man who can be bullied into doing anything. If that was Ivan’s strategy, and (frankly) it’s one of the only possible readings of his interview that makes any sense to me in hindsight, then it’s utterly blown up in his (and our) face. He misread his man badly, and instead of getting what he wanted he succeeded only in triggering the very worst aspect of Arsene’s personality; his stubbornness.
All just speculation of course. I sit here, scratching my head and wondering how a seasoned operator like IG could possibly have made the comments he did. Utterly inexplicable.
I would love to know what’s really going on behind the scenes.
Right – off to watch that Spurs video again.
Okay – Gnabry, Zelalem and Hayden are all excluded from the U21 squad to play Stoke tonight. Looks like they’ll be heading to Turkey.
Also rumours that Cabaye is not in the Newcastle side for this evening’s game with City. Probably bollocks, but one to keep an eye on – we’ll know soon enough.
TW, wow, that was some post, epic. 😉
Must admit, I totaly agree that to compare the invincibles to todays squad is better left alone, especialy if you’re looking for a positive spin.
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Nice one. Doctor Faustus.
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Heh Tabs, on a scale of 1 to Bad, that was totaly fucking horendous, Gawd Bless ’em. 🙂
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N7, I’d of put Cabaye at around 12-14mill at the start of the window, Newcastle won’t let him go to us for less then 20 I’m afraid, prepare to bent over, it’s ankle grabing time. 😮
N7, what if Ivan’s sole purpose of granting that interview was to assure fans, who were doubting if the club had money to spend, that the club now has money and are willing to spend? What if he already knew their plan for the window will take time to pull off and thought that the interview will re-assure fans and make us exercise patience while they executed their plan?
Cent @ 292
That’s a possibility. But then why intimate there’d be a signing within 48 hours?
And why deliver it at the start of the summer? If you knew business would happen late, why not wait until early August and then settle things down?
He’s generally a shrewd operator, is IG. A great communicator. I find it really worrying that he appears to have dropped the ball so badly on this one.
tabs: what the everloving feck??? That was so awful I could only bear to watch the first 30 or so seconds!
N7: “Whatever your view of our manager, I think we can probably all agree that he has never been a man who can be bullied into doing anything. If that was Ivan’s strategy”
But that raises another question: why doesn’t Ivan just tell Arsene that it doesn’t matter what he wants, if he doesn’t want to spend then the board will do it for him. Ivan is Arsene’s boss every day of the week. What’s Arsene going to do if we would have landed, say, Rooney, Cesc and Fellaini – put them on the bench? Resign? Well, if he would have resigned over the team signing too good players then that would be a first 🙂
CONFIRMED – CABAYE IS NOT IN THE SQUAD.
Blimey.
N7,
Just a thought, maybe a little “out there”, but is it possible that IG has done the following:
1. Also decided that AW is not the man to take us forward and that all the commercial dealings in the world will not make a jot of difference with the old mule in charge of buying players as pretty much no player on earth worth having would fit his valuation strategy;
2. Realised that a head to head with AW would see him out of the door before you could say “lynchmob”;
3. Somehow planned a strategy whereby, should the manager do exactly what is expected, he will get the brunt of the shit and thus be shown the door by the fans en masse or do the exact opposite and actually buy the players needed and thus force everybody to worship IG and friends for their sterling work on the commercial side of business that enabled AW to do it.
I know, it does seem a little too much but, well, can IG be as stupid as he currently looks? Would be tough! So, maybe, just maybe, he is much smarter than we give him credit for. Protecting his own arse and managing to force out a man that many believed for some time (even if not the majority before, it certainly seems to be now) has come to the end of the road in terms of his value and contribution to the club.
Wouldn’t be the dumbest way to get it done, if you aren’t a fan of the club of course, which, with little or no prior association with the club and certainly no photos of him sitting on his bed in a DB10 strip having come to light during his tenure, we can assume that he isn’t.
H2H,
Thank you. High praise indeed 🙂
Lars @ 294
Very good question.
I could be entirely wrong. I just wonder if there isn’t a little power struggle going on. I would certainly have loved to have heard Wenger’s thoughts after the IG interview broke. I bet he wasn’t in a rush to thank him.
Oh, and, H2H,
Pass the lube! Not going to be enough to go around if we are going to salvage anything from this window!
Cabaye isn’t even on the bench.
I think we can take it that the player is keen to move.
Cabaye Meh – not much dfferent to what weve got, Good player but no more than that, Youd think they would be looking at alternatives rather than identikits – Good squad player for teams aiming to finish between 4th and 6th, but no more than that, cannot see arsenal spending 15-18 million on player not guranteed a starting spot,
And any way weve got our sights on Top Top top Quality this summer 😉
Thierry @ 296
As you know, I take a different view of the manager to you.
However, the scenario you paint above is the one that has been rattling round my brain all summer, in my less zen moments.
I’ll file this one away for now – a theory to come back to on 3 September if things don’t pan out this next fortnight.
I dearly hope that AW and IG have a plan which will render the whole theory moot, because if the pair of them aren’t getting on and one is trying to force the other out then I think we are in for an extremely rough time of it.
Beautful set up there, by the way….!
You got there before me at 290 N7. On the list I have seen Bellerin and Yennaris are also omitted.
Well in N7 @ 300. Left it a while to type anything so as not to score from my own free kick!
And I think that you are right. September the 3rd will have some if not all the answers we seek on so many fronts.
As you say, if we are seeing the results of a power-struggle and nothing is done, then said theory could well result in many believing it to be fact and we may even see them lining up for their P45’s together!
Maybe DD will give them a lift to the JC before changing his office around?!??!
I say sack em all and let us Holics loose in the Boardroom !
N7 – Tw, Top Debate guys
If Cabaye is not in the squad, best check for a bloke called Kebab in case Joe Kinnear did the team sheet
Chippy,
I think that Cabaye is actually a much better player than many give him credit for. Most players playing in a 4th to 6th placed team tend to look like they are of that level. Kind of like most players in a relegation team tend to look crap and most in a championship winning team tend to look great (Anderson and Evans aside, of course!)
My “Song shaped hole” reference also does hom an injustice in that he is a much more complete player than “just” a DM. Having watched him since his arrival at Newcastle, (always felt he was another great missed opportunity for a very Wenger-esque signing) I would even go so far as to say that he is way ahead of most of his team mates. His ability to build something out of nothing invariably finds confused players ahead of him, completely misunderstanding his intentions and what should be great passes amount to little quit freqentlly. Despite this, his assist rate is, I would wager, fairly high. He can certainly stick his foot in too, which is a very underrated quality these days.
Add to this his ability to shoot with a decent level of accuracy from around the edge of the box and the fact that he can twat a decent free kick too and you actually may be pleasantly surprised by what he could bring to the team.
In truth, he is much more Vieira than Song. Certainly more so than Ramsey or even Arteta.
Frankly, his only weakness is he is a bit crap in the air. Surely something that BFG and Kos should be able to help out with?
Speaking of free kicks…Why are we still, after all these years, without a decent dead ball specialist?! Another gaping wound that has been left to weep and fester, is it not?
Chippy,
Now you’re talking!!!!!!!! I bagsy the newly created role of “Director of We are the Arsenal and we ain’t gonna take any crap from any of you second rate fuckers any more”!!!!
BtM should be head of “Blue Sky Thinking”
TaBS – Head of the Comedy Department
Lars should just wander the offices making sure everybody has something to drink (and paying for it of course!)
N7 should go straight in as manager. Strong in his opinions and yet perfectly willing to take advice when unsure (are you reading this Arsene?!)
H2H, Chippy and Wind could get the molotovs ready and make their way down the road in the wee small hours 🙂
True Storey should just do whatever the hell he likes because whatever he chooses he will probably be pretty close to the mark if not spot on!
I think that ‘Holic should get the press department, obviously 🙂
Well, that took the edge off a little!
Rumours Cabaye is not even in the stadium.
Pardew giving a furious interview – maybe he’s just had to share a taxi with Joe Kinnear.
Cynic, with a comment like that (Kinnear! Classic!) you could be vice-president of TaBS wing of the building!
Cracker that, well done sir!
TW 308, completely agree, it’s rumoured that Arsene’s first choice for DM was Lars Bender, I’d say Cabaye is the closest possible alternative to Bender we can get.
Cent’Berry,
I too agree with you 100%.
What the fuck?!??! 🙂
I agree with TW, Cabaye is a rather good player. It certainly wasn’t his fault Newcastle struggled a bit last season, at least not in the games I saw them play with him on the pitch. Getting him in would be pretty good business in my eyes, even if we have to pay upwards of £20 million for him because that seems to be the going rate for players of his standard these days.
And yes, I’ll accept the role of Executive Director in Charge of Drinks 🙂
Pardew…Furious…What say he?!
What a bloody excellent bunch of drinks again. If I had to comment on all of the good ones I’d be here all night but round of applause to N7 and Lars, and honourable mentions for Cynic, H2H, TW and Chippy.
And nurse abb – you have my full support for a peaceful protest provided it can be accomplished after the game at the Tollington 🙂
As for TaBS – I’m afraid I could only manage 17 seconds of the the YouSpud monstrosity. Anyone who managed more than that please have the drink of your choice, and please also have a bit of a lie down to recover.
I wouldn’t say he was furious, he was not happy with the timing of the bid though. But what does he expect, we could hardly panic buy until we lost on Saturday could we? 😉
Tw 🙂 Thats cracked me up !!
Im thinking H2H would be far better suited to Chief Medical Oficer as his Herbal Remedies are appreciated world wide,
Snir would have to be our Head of Transfers
And as for Steve T without a doubt the best number 2 in the business, Hed have no fear of telling N7 straight !
And last but by no means least the great Zico – Without doubt he gets the role of Chairman on the Happy Train !
C’mon lads, rally round. It’s not as if we played shit the whole match on Saturday was it? Yeah, there was a few wayward passes and lapses of concentration, but all very par for the course for an opening day and a AW team that doesn’t know what it’s going to be until it turns up on the day. Will we be shit or will we be good.
Who knows? We could go win 0 – 3 on Wednesday or lose by the same score. Anythings possible. Beat Bayern away, lose to Bradford away.
Yes, we need a few extra players. We have done for 5 years now. We’ve been promised them every year but they never come.
It doesn’t get us away from being tactically inept at times. A manager that sits on the bench with his head in his hands, throwing the odd bottle of water down isn’t what a team that lacks direction needs.
But you can’t do nothing about it. AW gets us to 4th, makes a profit, and has another year on his contract. And I believe a further one year option.
So we’re stuck until then.
Just pretend it’s the 80’s and anything good is a bonus. 😀
TW @ 315 “Merde” probably 😉
TW
You’re far too kind. Missed one key appointment though.
Got to have Steve T as head coach. Who better to ensure that the players are “the best they can be”?
Carragher is as awful as Neville is impressive.
He’s making my ears bleed….
Ah – Chippy beat me to it! Well played old son.
Lars,
Maybe we should add Head of the Department Names department to your job description. Yours is so much better than mine and we would need A4 sized business cards if it were left to me!!!
I can safely guarantee that the next time I am in the UK I will make certain to smash tradition into smithereens and buy YOU a drink. Cannot think of a more fitting way to say thanks for the years of enjoying reading you here.
Steve T will have to be Chairmen as I refuse to answer to anybody else!!!!!
You know, if we’re going to be trying to nick players from Newcastle I’d rather have Coloccini than Kebab
@ 318
I get to be Chairman?
Again?
Where did I put my Syrup 😉
Cynic,
How, well, cynical of you!!!!!
Chippy,
You are now officially head of Human Resources…Clearly far more qualified than I!
Mark the Spark,
I’ll have a half-full glass of what you are having 😉
Snowy,
You should obviously be getting interviewed by TaBS! Brilliant sir. NewFrancenal United, dare I say? Oh, I think I just did!
N7,
Not kind at all and the old great minds thing clearly in full effect here today!
Zico,
Fuck, genuinely sorry for the omission. So many great people here, it was obvious that I would miss a few.
As for Carragher…Sky Sports seem to have a similar recruiting policy to us…2 steps forward and 3 steps back!
TW, 313, no worries, we are allowed to agree a few times.
N7, that statement is the one that raised expectations and as far as I’m concerned is the reason for the summer of discontent.
But let’s look at it from another angle.
He came out and said we had money, maybe not the smartest move, but in todays world of blogs and instant info, from the likes of Swiss Ramble and beyond, this was not really a secret. He stood there with poise and confidence, what he said didn’t, and still doesn’t, look to my like political posturing and I cant for the life of me believe that he was just playing to the crowd. He seemed, to me, to be generaly convinced that deals were in place, that additions would come and his promiss would be fulfiled.
We then heard that we missed out on Bender, ok, it happens, not too long after, the Higuan affair started. Maybe there was indeed no official statement from the club that we had made an offer, but there was a hell of lot of smoke to be no fire at all. His father, brother, auntie, second cousin twice removed and the guy who looks after his goldfish while he’s at away games all came out to tell the world that the deal was all but done, his agents were in London, but then…… nothing. What happened? Who pulled the plug?
Is it because Real played silly buggers? Did Dick Law take a whizz on the carpets of the exec’s boardroom in the Bernabeau? Did Arsene think that the price wasn’t right? Which of these (speculative) options seems most likely?
Refusing to fork out 34mill for Higuan can be understood, until you then factor the 40mil plus bid for Alvin Racistknob, how the hell can it be good business to offer that kind of money for a player with a track record of being a total shit, has made trouble at every club he’s been at and been done for biting, TWICE!! But I digress.
Back to the deals (or lack of). We all know that the transfer window opens on the 1st of July, we’ve also been informed, repeatedly, that deals aren’t easy. O.K we get it. But here’s where it gets murky again;
We have been told, again repeatedly, that the weak spots in the squad have been identified and reinforcements targeted. Great, but surely we dont wait until the 1st of July to get these deals in place? Surely we just don’t send out an e-mail on that date asking;
Dear Monsior, can I have your players sil vous plait?
ps. On the cheap, after all they are second hand. RSVP.
Love Arsene(al)
Surely Arsene has a scouting network?
I can’t imagine that there isn’t a team and a jet on standby to whisk them off to wherever to complete said deals, can you?
So the questions we need to be asking are;
Who identifies the players we need?
Who has final decision on who joins?
Who has the power to pull the plug on said deals?
If you ask me those questions, then there’s only one answer, the same guy that has total, and I mean total control over all football and team related issues, that’s the manager. we have absolutly no interference from up top about team selection, that’s the way Arsene wants it, and that’s the way it should be.
Was it Gazidis who let 20+, yes, 20 PLUS players leave the club?
Was it Kroenke or Chips?
If the answer to that is no, then logic tells you that the buck stops with one man and one man only, I hate to say it, but that’s the way it is.
It’s bad enough that we have stagnated the last few years, but many of us were willing to accept that as a concequence of the new stadium, however, this season instead of moving forward we’ve actually gone backwards, if you don’t believe me, check out who’s available to play on Wednesday. Now tell me that that isn’t gross mismanagement, please don’t tell me it’s down to “bad luck.”
Once again, a hell of a lot of speculation on my part, but with a total lack of information coming out of the club then that’s all any of us can do.
A drinky for all who got through that.
Anybody got a decent stream for the game? That useless LWC Bloodzeed seems to have no signal coming through!
H2H,
Spot on sir and, yes, I will take that drink 😉
TW@268: Thanks for your detailed critique of mine in response to IF@63 (his was the original post). As I said earlier to TTG, my point was that there is potential in this team, not that half of it would have walked into the Invincibles. I wouldn’t for a moment suggest that, or that the current crop of players is anywhere near to realizing their potential. But we don’t — can’t — know how good Jack, or Gibbs or the Ox or Woj will turn out to be in comparison with players who were mostly in their pomp in 2003-04 (and remember Jens got replaced by Almunia).
I have no argument with you that potential doesn’t win trophies. It doesn’t. And even if everyone came good, really good, the current team would still be a couple, at least, of world-class players short of the Invincibles, as I indicated. Not that IF raised a question about the bench, but I don’t have any argument with you either about the weakness in the depth of the current squad. You will see that I have repeatedly said that going back countless drinks.
I just hope you are right about the Holy Trinity having a plan. What worries me most of all is that Pangloss@278 is right, that they are just no good at recruiting players.
TW, in case you can’t fathom out my rather cryptic postings… a couple of years ago I came to the conclusion that AW, great man that he is and all that, has run his course as manager of AFC.
Probably 4 nil up at Newcastle and 4 all was the final straw, but really, there’s been so many other insane displays from the teams he puts out, as well as the strange season long injuries that we get, that it’s hard to pinpoint exactly.
But I also realised that I couldn’t do anything about it, so just decided to step back and enjoy my days out on saturdays at 3pm, until things change.
All aboard the happy train 😀
H2H, another great sum up, together with many others on this and the previous bars musings.
TW, we’ll sort that Tollington sit-down protest that Snowy was talking about and you can buy me a drink there 🙂
Although that’s a great sum up at 329 H2H, you’re sort of saying that AW *only* gets to say yay or nay at buying.
How does that explain Park Santos and a really long list that includes Silvestre?
He’s not fit, full stop.
And then a promising player like Chamakh comes along, keeps us in the hunt early season whilst RVP is nursing internationally inflicted wounds, and then goes off the boil? Like the meerkat later does?
Does someone alter their tactical noo with new ideas?
Surely not Pat Rice? Blimey, after all this time… I knew he was suspect 🙂
The bloke has to go. Wish it could have been with a silver fanfare and a gold watch, but it’s not to be.
TW@308: Good point about a dead-ball specialist. If there is one footballing skill that can be taught and mastered with enough practice, it should be that. It is 100% technique.
Mark the Spark,
Sorry, I think we were both being more cryptic than we both realised 😉
Cheers lads.
==
MtS, not *only*
I’m saying he has total control of all things football, including in’s and outs, training,tactics, selection and maybe even the stripyness of the socks.
MtS: that Newcastle game was a freak occurence if you ask me, and it was all Phil Dowd’s work anyway. Now, the home game of that same season – that was far worse in my eyes because that was all down to complacency and arrogance and thinking we only had to show up to win it. And I was at both games… not exactly money well spent!
You’re cool TW. I enjoy your posts. You pretty much write what I would write if I could type quicker 😀
Ned,
I have gone back and re-read your entire drink regards The Invincibles and, in my defence, I think maybe it was easily misunderstood. That said, I understand what you were getting at now so sorry to have “taken you to task” quite so vociferously!
All that said, I think it was probably an interesting exercise overall, so no regrets, eh?!
Meanwhile, even Beckham has stated time and time again (to the point where I remember a TV ad with him chipping balls onto a golf green) that the only way he got to be as good as he is in dead ball situations was practice, Pratice, PRACTICE.
Nail, head sir.
You don’t get much more freaky than being four up and drawing 4 all Lars lol
We nearly lost it as well if I remember right.
But yes, Barton the oxygen thief got Dowd to play the wanka card quite well and the rest is history.
Along with several other we only have to turn up to win moments as you correctly describe.
I thought ‘we would learn from this’ after brum away and Taylor and actually tasting success in the air. Obviously not so.
Mark the Spark,
Or maybe if you were just so unbelievably sad you had the time to spend writing for so long!!!!!
Thanks for understanding!
🙂
PS – Still looking for a decent stream if anybody has got any ideas!
TW, you just get it out of your system any which way you can. After Fulham away a couple – maybe 3 – seasons ago, I went and got a sack of coconuts and smashed the mother out of them with a sledgehammer in the back garden.
It was at that point the missus had to have a word. I’d become all over consumed again and it was affecting everything, had to have Mondays off if we were piss poor on Saturday and all that.
So just sit back and take it with a pinch now. REALLY it isn’t any different today than it has been for the last 3 or 4 seasons, a load of old cobblers excuses about not buying players and this and that. I’ve just got used to it for the above reasons.
Someone is going to have to put Alain Pardieu on ‘Le Suicide” watch pretty soon I think…
Cheers Lars – looking forward to a sit in at the Tollie then. But let’s not let TaBS choose the protest songs or we’ll be on ‘Liar Liar’ all night 😉
The logic of buying Cabaye and letting Miquel go out on loan escapes me too…
Mark the Spark,
Sounds like you may well have mastered the Zen that so many are currently searching for.
Believe it or not, I am actually much, much calmer than I used to be! I think that I may have been in something like “Coconut Mode” at about the same time as you were! Still hurts like hell to see what we are (not) doing, but at least with each disaster we are surely closer to seeing a solution, however drastic that solution may be.
By the way all, Gutierrez out with what looks like a hamstring injury, Taylor sent off thus suspended for 2 matches and Newcastle about to take a good old hiding…
+£10m for Cabaye right there!
Lars:
Not sure when it will be, I am a LONG way away these days and rarely get back, but you have a deal 100% and I personally cannot wait.
I just hope that there is no actual need for a sit-in protest by then. Obviously, that does not preclude the desire to perform one, necessary or not!!!
A protest in a pub???
But they’re the happiest places on Earth. 😉
Fuck!
Got a stream now…
…just in time to hear Dave Lister commenting on the match!!!
Surely even Arsene would have signed up a better “expert” than that mugsmashing twat!?!?!?!!!
When Wenger was winning Premier league titles he invariably had the better players to play most teams off the park so tactics were not an issue.Europe was a different ball game were tactics are a prerequisite to any success and in which Wenger was time and time again found wanting…
Mark the Spark @ 344
That’s one of the best things I’ve ever read on here; coconuts! Love it!
Admire your zen calm – the only sane response to an insane world. Enjoy the highs, ride out the lows and always remember: this too shall pass.
@ Desmond
Bit harsh? When Wenger won things it wasn’t him, it was the players. When he loses it’s all his fault?
MtS, we did almost lose that game and Newcastle had a goal wrongly disallowed for offside, but then again so did we.
And smashing coconuts seems like a great way of releasing tension after a hurtful loss 🙂
TW: no worries, if there is no need for a protest we’ll just protest against the lack of a reason for a protest!
TW: not sure that adds money to the Cabaye fee. Maybe he’ll kick up even more of a fuss (because he has probably made it clear to Pardew that he wants to go, if not he’d have been in the squad tonight and not left out altogether) and they’ll have to let him go. And, come to think of it, maybe he has a release clause that we’ve triggered? Very few contracts seem to lack them these days.
I guess we’ll know quite soon.
Smashing coconuts is code, right?
Don’t let Smallballs get involved…..
Bloody hell, a mate called so I’ve been away from MNF for a little while and come back to see it’s now 4-0…
Has anyone set off the ‘Protect the Manchester Police Horses’ klaxon yet?
Telegraph now reporting we’ve offered £20m for Pogba. Very good player.
Right, off to see if I can cope with more than 17 seconds of that tragic supdvid…
N7 @ 357 – so long as we have Dick Law working on the Cabaye deal, we might have a chance 😉
Excellent Twitter reaction to the Pogba news:
“Only £20m? We’ll NEVER get him for that”
“If Juventus only want £20m and we don’t offer it then it really is time for Wenger to go”.
Also enjoying Lineker proclaiming that Pardew is “quite rightly” angry with Arsenal. Confused now – are we cnuts for not spending any money, or cnuts for trying to spend money? Is the transfer window closed?
Lads, an outstanding set of drinks and been a rare pleasure to just sit back and enjoy the banter.
I’ve never felt worse after a game so apologies for basically 2 days of solid bitching – shocking behaviour!
It’s chin up, eyes front and get ready for Weds. Bring them on, why can’t the boys go there and get a respectable result, get back some of that pride in the shirt. We can’t have a god awful ref twice in row surely?
What’s that, sorry? It’s a UEFA competition? D’oh!
Pogba and Cabaye are not world class top quality signings, they are about the same level as we already have. I would rather not go spunking £30m on those two thanks.
I agree with Gary Neville. We have left it too late and we are where we are. If we can’t get the top players we wanted, there’s not much point chucking millions away in a two week panic buy.
Porco @ 361
Well said that man!
Nothing wrong with getting it all out your system but it’s nearly time to go again. Big, big game coming up, gotta get behind the lads.
COYG
Everton have released the figures Manure bid for Fellani and Baines: £16m & 12m respectively. By releasing these figures does this not smack of a team that is willing to sell but has put it out there that they want a bit more money.
Surely we have to try a £20m bid for Fellani. He’s more along the lines of what we need than Cabaye who is a good footballer but a little more of the same in terms of stature and physique.
Should that fail then a double bid for Bender and Subotic /piszczek.
Cynic
Sounds like it might be time to reach for the big bag of coconuts…
Fellaini has been on the market all summer for £22m. Easy signing. No one has come in for him. That says to me that top clubs don’t think his feet are good enough. And I say this as someone who’s been calling for him all summer.
Quick and true Pardew story.
A couple of years ago one of my mates was at a dinner and went afterwards with a mixed group to a club in the West End.
About 2 o’clock in the morning. To his amazement he found the aforementioned AP dancing,on his own and protected by two minders!! Make of that what you will? He also hit unsuccessfully on a number of women(AP not my mate). The pressures of modern management eh?
Anyway if only the quality of our play on Saturday had matched some of the input on here in the last few days. TW makes so many good points and it is good to see positive plans emerging.
Pangloss made the point this morning that Wenger is not deliberately sabotaging the club.I agree completely. Not all Gooners do but many are now too bitter to have perspective.
I believe he cares desperately but I think in some respects (and only some) he has lost it. The transfer market is one. He used to operate below the radar and do it quite brilliantly but too many people watched what he was doing and replicated it-and then the SuperClubs came. I think AW truly hates the window because he doesn’t like buying stars and prefers to mould rather than nick other people’s players. From the rumours it seems the intensity of our search is increasing and it sure needed to because Wenger had completely failed to build a squad adequate to contest the season . I can’t believe such an intelligent and committed man could do that -he really has failed to do a huge part of his job and its the second season in three it has happened to an alarming degree. He does the actual season much better but squad building is a key part of his job and I genuinely think he might not be able to do it anymore in the way we need him to.
There is a lot of speculation that its Kroenke’s fault or IG’s or old Dick Law’s but as others have said here earlier if there is any club where you can ascribe blame accurately it is Arsenal. This club has been fashioned in Wenger’s image and he wields enormous power. He may not wield it effectively all the time but other than SAF nobody has the autonomy he has (eg Mourinho doesn’t have the same sort of slack because of Abramovich.) Kroenke’s laid back approach gives Wenger more power within his club than almost any manager in world football. So while there are partial scapegoats Wenger is too blame for most of the issues,don’t let anyone convince you otherwise.
People will be aware I’m in the minority of people who believe he needs a partner with his ear and his respect. Only Dein comes close to these requirements. IG certainly fails on most counts by the look of things.
If we get Cabaye for £15 million I will be happy. We need to be very careful with LJW. Kondogbia might be a more defensive midfielder and very versatile and Uchida is a decent full-back. I think we will let Woj and Flappy soldier on in goal and while I would love Willian and Benteke or Martinez I think the overall investment might be too much. While we could afford it,Wenger couldn’t live with himself to buy so many. And I don’t think a marquee or semi-marquee player is obtainable this season-unless we go for a riculous loan deal for Eto’o or Ibrahimovic. But would they join us?. Its odd that the existing squad must be as pissed off as us by the lack of arrivals. Wenger isn’t selling the club to big stars and this affects who else we can get. I wonder if this has occurred to him?
Cynic: “Pogba and Cabaye are not world class top quality signings, they are about the same level as we already have”.
Hmmm, Pogba might be WC. But those two, or blank squad numbers?
We’ve gotta get cover for the rest of the season, simple as that.
Why is no-one mentioning Drogba as back up striker? FFS he mullered us again less than 2 weeks ago… now you go ‘look at the bench and what have we got’ well get that monster on the bench and *then* you’ve got someone who you’d think just might turn a game around. He wouldn’t be a lot of dough either.
The best thing about the coconuts was Thai curries for the rest of the season btw 😀
Cabaye or not Cabaye that is the question.
Looks like we are going to have to pay significantly over the true value of any player we want to add to our squad if we are going to get anyone in who is any good at all.
That’ll no doubt stick in a few parsimonious craws in our organisation and quite possibly scupper the deals entirely.
There’s no doubt we’re in trouble both on and off the field despite the excellent first team core and the astronomical cash reserves.
Come on you off the field Gooner personnel. Pull off a miracle or two. Please.
Pip @ 369 – 🙂
@364 Isn’t piszczek out with a long term injury?
Sorry North Bank 1 I cut your name off.
Trying to start an Internet rumour that Alain Pardieu has complained that the Arsenal bid was not made in Francs.
Feel free to spread the word.
@369 – Not Cabaye. Save the money for the next manager to spend.
Hey Baff – lot of logic in that proposition. And I’m sure that it holds true for a lot of 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc tier targets.
However, for primary ‘big money’ targets (for which the number of buyers available is actually very limited) I suspect that the opposite is true…
I realise it’s a bit counterintuitive, but if you wait for others to blink first, and those lesser targets (that you’re not interested in) are removed from the market, you’re left with a market in which those holding onto the big targets (who want to leave their clubs and are a fucking pain in the arse for those clubs if they stay there) have rapidly shortening options and at the worst case, with no buyer at all, are left with unhappy players that they can’t shift this window.
High risk strategy for sure. But if no other club is in for the targets we really want, we just have to wait until they realise there are no other options for them, hideous as that might feel for a supporter.
Not for a second saying that’s what I think is definitely the case behind all our non-dealings because I ‘know’ nothing ‘for a fact’. But it is something of an explanation that I can see a logic behind.
Mark, I’ve suggested Drogba would be an excellent investment in the past several threads.
Anyway, I think it’s all been said by the erudite and passionate members of this great group. I have nothing more to add…
…except to say that while I rarely read sporting memories I cannot wait for AW’s book when he finally gets round to giving us his side of the story … now that should be an interesting read.
Oskar
Vicente Guaita, goalie. Strong rumors that we are interested. Take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ShcMyHzfPE
Spanish, anyone?
http://www.superdeporte.es/valencia/2013/08/19/arsenal-viene-guaita/204347.html
I’ve watched only one game with him between the posts. Valencia vs Real Madrid. He was out of this world in that game. Only a second choice keeper in Valencia, though. Any further info would be welcome.
Ok seriously now people. As fans we need to get a grip. We have important fixtures coming up. Get behind the team. Our differences with ownership and other structures/divisions of the club to be sorted outside the ground elsewhere and not when the t e a m is trying to win a football match. We can write letters, send emails, go to ivan’s office whatever but please not in our stadium, please. Lets get our act together. Next thing arsenal fans will be singing spend some f$^#^g money you p#$%#%le, is it that bad? surely not…
None of us could have known that Arteta would get injured 3 days before kick off. We could see that the game was ours till the ridiculous penalty on Konscielny. And lets be frank, what other home team gets two penalties and a sending off against? That was a result-altering officiating display. Made it as hard as possible for Arsenal and as easy as possible for Villa. Fans Angry. Media do their usual tricks. Pressure on The Boss. Exactly where they want him. Uncomfortable. Lets not play into their hands gentlemen….
We are Arsenal and our coach is Arsene Wenger! Dont forget. Dont disrespect. This man has been carrying us on his shoulders the last 16 years, it is only fair we carry him on our shoulders for a while too. Please, we are not savages. Hurling abuse at him inside the stadium he built for us is sooooo wrong, dont our fans get it, where are our morals? We can find other ways to express disatisfaction. More civilised ways?
Good news people.
Gibbs, Ramsey & Rosický are all fit for Arsenal’s trip to Fenerbahçe. Sagna faces fitness test in the morning
As you can note i have no problem acknowledging that things arent to fans satisfaction right now, i do however disagree with the manner of expressing them. Especially when they involve verbal assaults on the manager like sophisticated hooligans. Very annoying.
Jaysus Lurky! Good news indeed!
That fall Sagna took scared the crap out of me.
He’s legs are brittle as chalk, but his spine and noggin must be freaking titanium.
Cheers to that cannonball.
Nice one cannonball.
I think you’ll find most here support the team no matter what, believe it or not most of us support the manager too. We’re just trying to make sense of what has been a confusing few months.
Snowy @376 – interesting theory; I hope to God you are right that that’s the way it works and that we may actually have a strategy. It’s certainly a risky one – too risky for a threadbare albeit talent-filled squad.
Cannonball @380 Good call.
Lurky @381 – that is excellent news. Fingers crossed on Bac.
Let’s go to Turkey, get a result and surprise everyone.
Thank you Canonball. I think here though you are preaching to the choir as we mostly disagree (see numberless threads previous) without resorting to ignorant and petulant insults.
In the era of the 24 hour news cycle we may be a dying breed. But I really like that we still have a home to go to in times like these. The other noncy Operation Yewtree fuckers can fuck right off frankly 😉
After all that has happened over the last few days has anyone done a wellness check on Snir?????
I only saw the Sagna fall once……turned my head for all of the replays…I’m surprised he can even walk.
Oh i know Holloway2Holland, we all are. I just wanted to get it off my chest as therapy because on Saturday i felt pretty awful watching fans genuinely angry at the Boss as if he had killed their mother. I didnt know what to think or say, shocked.
Hi Baff – accept it’s just a theory. Just trying, in my own old-skool LSE-wanker way, to think like an economist (as I singularly failed to do particularly well as an LSE undergraduate I should add).
And if I’m right, God help us all, cos it’s going to be one hell of transfer window.
According to Adrian Clarke tonight there is a chance Gibbs can play, albeit in a mask, and Sagna may get the ok. Hard to believe after that fall, but great news if true.
We may have a back four on Wednesday, if not on Saturday…
Cannonball, spot on.
I disagree with the way the club handles things this summer, especially for lack of providing decent plan to sign required players for the CL qualifiers. I will speak about it on twitter with other Arsenal fans or in this bar with another Arsenal fans. However, I would never, ever admit to anyone outside the club that we do things the bad way. Quite the opposite. I don’t understand fans who go to the “enemies” and fill their egos with bad words for our players and manager. It is like you go to your neighbors and start complaining about your children. What happens in the family, stays in the family.
My boss at work who is Cuntski fan, think that I am the most obstinate bastard that walked the Earth, because in front of him and in front of every other club fan I say that whatever Arsene does or does not he is right. And I will continue to do so no matter what. Because as you sad, we are the Arsenal ffs and our coach is Arsene Wenger. They can all fyck off.
But ‘holic @ 390, what does he know eh? 😉
Thank you Lurky!! Indeed they can all f@%$ off. Victoria Concordia Crescit.
Cras es noster, cannonball … credo quia impossibile est !
Oskar
Daniel Levy himself told you that, Desmond?
We will spend the money don’t worry, but I am afraid a little to late.
Yes desmond it could well be that we were fooled. Easy. We wont renew tickets. Until then though our duty is to support the Red & White. Gazidis jumped the gun, didnt get the memo, was asleep when new orders were received. Arsene should fire him. Arsene knows Poker. Ivan plays Uno.
According to Adrian Clarke tonight there is a chance Gibbs can play, albeit in a mask
Let’s hope the kit man remembers to cut the eye holes in it.
Where is Ollie?
bang
NewsNow still ablaze with ‘Alain Pardieu is fuming’ stories.
Seriously, what’s not to like there then ??? 😉
Ooh, well in Baff, suits you sir 😉
Thanks for the assist Lurky, reversal of roles….had Ollie been here no doubt he would have set it up for you.
Thanks snowy and congrats on the tabs position.
Is Ryo Miyaichi fit? Eisfeld?
Pardew’s righteous indignation is utterly hilarious.
Not said “derisory and insulting” yet.
We won’t get Cabaye though.
Eisfeld I think is fit, based on him scoring a brace tonight against Stoke u21s.
Unless the locals ate him of course. Or threw rocks at him because he wasn’t dressed in stuff he nicked from JD sports.
Ah he played tonight. Can he play in league games too ? Im thinking the fulham game really.
Dunno Cannonball. I imagine he is available as he must be listed in the ‘big squad’ having played in some COC games last term? Ah shite. Where’s rulebook Lars when you need him?
Anyway, let’s not think how scary it might be to put one of the kids into a high pressure PL game eh? That way lies madness.
Ommmm…….
*runs and hides head in sand*
I haven’t read the drinks and don’t plan too as I will just add my two penneth. This may be repeated as said I haven’t read them.
1 : Entering the PL with only a player from the French lower leagues who was let go on a free didn’t feel me with joy !
2 : I wish to congratulate AW for getting rid of some of the most dire players ever to pull on the Arsenal shirt, the cull was well over due. Players AW brought who never made the grade but was allowed to take home a substantial wage for far more years than was ever thought.
3 : Who ever is in charge of transfers at Arsenal please resign as you obviously have NO idea of what you are doing !
4 : It is very possible we could be the richest club by a country mile in the Europe not playing in the CL.
5 : This im sure would hinder signing top quality players to the club IF we decided to do that before the second coming.
6 : Sack the medical staff as an injury for 3 months will turn into a whole season out, we all know this.
7 : AW scouting network is now 12 years out of date. GET a new one or occasionally listen to the scouts you have. If I hear one more storey of he was on radar for 3 years yet we couldn’t sign them as we were sitting on our hands I will scream. When AW joined he knew of all the best talent in France hands down but seeing as the rest of the PL now have scouts all round the world AW magic hat is gathering dust in his office.
8 : AW please never ever blame fans for the players poor performance on the pitch.
9: AW its not your fucking money.
10. Sign your 7.5m a year contract so we can continue to be the laughing stock of Europe.
11. Arsenal do not release press statements stating we have 70-100m to spend on players as the renewals for the season tickets are sent out.
12. Blind faith has lasted 8 years.
13. Any top manager around the world who was in charge of one of the biggest clubs would have been sacked by now and not getting ready to sign a further extension. *On more money than any of our players yet we have a strict wage structure* Hypocrite !
14. AW has the final say on everything at Arsenal so there for its his fault. FACT !
15. I have been a Arsenal fan for 38 years and I no longer think this is acceptable at the club I love. We won things before you turned up im sure we will win things again.
Well in bath, what a strike 🙂
bmgedo@387, not that snir needs a babysitter, but he’s been changing colleges, moving house, and celebrating (what seems like all summer long) a friend getting married. at least that’s what it looks like from facebook.
if pardieu is blowing his top, arsene is doing *something* right.
and lurky, i’d like that goalkeeper, please. second choice, or not.
Well drunk everybody – it’s taken me all night to catch up !
Arsene clearly read my wish list last night and bid for Cabaye today.
“Bybaye, Cabaye !”
“Adieu, Pardieu !”
Job done. 😉
Cannonball & Snowy — all U-21 registered players are eligible to play for the first team squad in League and Cup matches as they don’t fall under the ‘homegrown rule’ restriction.
Eisfield and Akpom played in the match against Stoke so they are not traveling to Turkey, but won’t at all be surprised to see them on the bench at weekend.
I particularly like Eisfield: good technique, cool headed, eye for a pass, very good at dead balls and a knack for scoring goals.
Cannonball & Snowy ?
Sounds like a firm of children’s entertainers. 😉
Trev @ 415: Or a cartoon about a jazz master’s friendship with a reporter’s dog…too literal? 🙂
Lurky @ 379
At work so not much time (sorry if somebody else already replied too!)
Basically he is pissed at being second choice and knows that we want him. He wants to leave whilst Valencia want him to sign a new contract. Supposedly promised first team football but left on the bench v Malaga.
Basically, that’s it.
Cannonball @ 380:
I appreciate what you are saying, but yet again, therein lies a serious problem…
We cannot speak out during the window because we have to wait until September 3rd and we cannot speak out one the season starts because it will affect the team.
The Arsenal Formula:
– Wait until September 3rd*
– The team need the support**
– Wait until January***
– Wait until the end of the season****
– Wait until September 3rd*****
* – Usually due to a perceived and normally realised inactivity in the transfer market
** – Mainly because the team isn’t stocked with enough quality to do it’s job properly
*** – Mainly because we are out of 1 or 2 cups, not even close to challenging for the league and it is only December
**** – Mainly because we are in a scrap to simply qualify for Europe and that is considered the pinnacle of our ambition now
***** – Lather, rinse, repeat
I am not even sure the players really give a fuck any more what we say, do or think. I think they would probably welcome some sort of a revolution so that they too can see some serious quality arriving at the club and enable them to fulfil their ambitions of actually winning something.
I understand the need to support the team but, and there is 8 years of evidence of my next statement, doing so has served little or no purpose for a long time. I genuinely believe that accepting the status quo is simply failing them as well as the club and ourselves.
Not that I don’t think that we should be fully behind them in the stands nor do I think that we should boo them, bad game or good game, but I do think that the right to protest comes with the job of supporter, whichever club he or she may support.
Just get out of Turkey alive and with enough bodies to put out a team against Fulham and we may just have bought enough time to straighten at least some of this mess out.
Come on you gooooonnneeeerrrrrssssssss!
Trev @ 413:
Top word play sir!!! Well in!
Top 420? I guess I’ve recovered enough to make a comment at last.
Not quite the result I was expecting on Saturday. I thought we deserved much better than we got and can’t really fault the performance. Had the erroneous penalty on Koscielny not been given we would have come through with a quite straightforward win. It takes great plaayers to overcome such adversity as we faced on Saturday though and it seems evident that we do not have enough of those to expect to contend.
behind the 8 ball but gunning for glory,
Wise words them. Not sure the win would have been as straightforward as you think as we showed no obvious signs of any real creativity at all, even after going 1-0 up (on the counter), let alone when all the confidence drained out of the entire team once Woj failed to get to the rebound first.
I think that there is lots more wrong with this team than simply the personnel. I just don’t fink they’ve got the mentul strengffff innit!!!
Once there is little or nothing to actually win, we seem to go on runs. Like the end of last season. Operation Saving Pride was deemed a huge success but, yet again, dancing with the players for basically achieving the most minor failure available at the time is something I believe is not helping matters. If we are so happy to say well done, you only failed miserably over the past 9 months a bit, what are we telling them, the manager and the board?
But I suppose that once the final whistle went we were locked into stage 5 – wait until September 3rd – of the Arsenal Formula.
Can’t ask too many questions, now can we?!
For the record, I think that the very most we could possibly have “deserved” from the game on Saturday was a draw and that would not have really been enough to stem the backlash we are currently seeing either.
Fingers crossed for Wednesday. Let’s see a bit of that strengfff, eh?!
🙂
Morning holics. Just read that there is a clause stipulated by Southampton that if the OX plays over 20 minutes in a game, that Arsenal must pay 10 million pounds. Is this what they mean by an ‘add on’ when contracts are drawn up? Seems strange to me, as I always thought once you bought a player, you ‘owned’ him, outright. Anyway, this sheds new light (at least for me) that there might be other considerations (besides match fitness and tactics) when Arsene decides to bring on a sub. Could Poldi have something similar in his contract as well. We always wonder why, when he is brought on late in a game. I’m sure I’m missing something here.
Correction, 10,000 pounds ( not 10 million ), knew that couldn’t be right 😉
ABB, that article is utter rubbish! Chamberlain was always going to be introduced into the team little by little considering he was only 18 at the time and had only played one top flight season in the championship prior to joining Arsenal.
@Cent
Agreed. Who ever heard of a clause like that? And funny how these little nuggets that make us sound like a bunch of half wits suddenly emerge in the press just as the manager is under pressure.
Hey Cent and N7, Yeah, it sounded farfetched to me too, but then I remember all the times when we would say “20 minutes left, time for Arsene to bring on a sub!” 🙁
Morning all
I have that warm glow inside from reading stories about a ‘furious Pardew’ driven by the utter temerity of us bidding for one of Joe Kinnear’s players.
What will the strutting nancy boy do now? Run and tell thick uncle Joe to ask those nasty Arsenal people to go away?
IMO, Pardew is now reduced to the status of a Clive Allen.
Marvellous.
More importantly, thanks for the update ‘H on Gibbs & Bac. As TGSTEL is still hanging around, couldn’t we save the money required for a mask and re-use the one he had when he was running around and being sh*t at Sunderland? Must be worth a few bob.
Have a good day all.
N7 knows @ #423
Have woken up this morning to discover that the press are EXCLUSIVELY revealing that absolutely everything at Arsenal is currently being handled in an incompetent fashion.
From the tea-making to the pitch markings (I did think they looked a bit wobbly at the weekend), from Ivan’s hairstyle to Arsene’s awful, awful shoes, the club is a shambling mess, an organisation on the point of collapse, if not total anarchy.
I suggest we call in the FA to determine exactly what sort of foul play was involved in enabling a dysfunctional, incompetent, borderline-criminal entity such as Arsenal to actually finish in the top four (not a trophy, so fuck you!) ahead of well run, solid giants of association football such as Liverpool and Spurs. Teams who are definitely “headed in the right direction”, even if they never actually arrive there.
Thank god the media have alerted us all to what’s REALLY going on inside Arsenal while there’s still time for us to storm the Emirates stadium, burn it to the ground, take off and nuke the site from orbit (it’s the only way to be sure).
Oh, and don’t forget – Arsenal lost their “moral compass” the day they bid for Luis Suarez. But it’s OK for Liverpool to continue to own him. And City to be owned by fascist, slave trading homophobes. And Chelsea to he managed by a man who is up to his patchy ginger beard in dodgy, back-scratching Russian oil deals. Why can’t we be more like them?
The one glimmer of hope for me is that we purchased Mert and Arteta during our ‘panic purchases’ of a few years back. This time around, we have more money and I suspect that we know who we’re after and probably have all summer. And in addition, the board and AW know it is of paramount importance to spend before the trap-door slams shut.
It’s like last season in reverse: desperation has set in early rather than later and AW will be finished unless he spends well these last few days Much like his tenure would have looked untenable had we finished outside the top 4 last season.
I really feel he won’t sign a contract extension if we don’t make the Champions League by beating Fernebache or if his signings between now and 2-Sep are too few or of insufficient quality to give us all hope of reaching fourth.
Amazing how expectations have slipped already. I was hoping we would challenge for the title this year…
Have we signed Yaya Banana yet?
N7 – I see you’re putting in a performance today normally associated with visiting ‘keepers at The HoF.
Good stuff.
Sky Sports News: Jack Wilshere, Tomáš Rosický, Bacary Sagna, Aaron Ramsey and Kieran Gibbs all train today.
Lurky
Very good news indeed!
Well said N7 @427.
Right, I’ve kept quiet for long enough. There’s a lot in the drinks that I agree with (sadly) re the abortion of a summer and the reasons for it. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that we are seeing the final act of a massive stand off between IG and AW, and that one of them will ultimately leave. That a dysfunctional relationship has been allowed to get this far, with the Club as victim, is a shame on both their houses and of course on our absent owner who is either too disinterested or too inept to do anything about it.
Others will blame Arsene Wenger solely. Others will blame the Board. That is their prerogative. Whatever, we are all just guessing. What is beyond question however is that, as the Bard once remarked, something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
All perfectly fair so far. Something’s bad, pick your reasons for it from the provided “Arsenal are shit” menu.
But then people go on to wheel out the “eight years of failure” mantra, and how pleased they are that others are finally “seeing sense” and coming round to their “way of thinking”. Well how about fuck right off?
The eight years of failure mantra is lazy, convenient and just plain wrong. An eight year period cannot just be lumped together as one whole. The reasons why we have not won anything since 2005 are complex, various, and have differed from Season to Season.
The reason that there is so much bafflement, not to say anger, at the current situation is not because this Summer is a continuation of what has gone before, but because we were assured at the start of the Summer that things were now different with an “escalation of our financial power”. That is why most people, including myself, are raging, not because we’ve suddenly decided that the reactionary, extreme, and let’s face it, pretty thick “we’ve been putting up with this shit for eight years” brigade are suddenly visionaries. They are not, simple as.
Inherent within that escalation of financial power statement is the obvious implication that we were not to that date able to compete financially. Far from proving anyone right, it actually made a mockery of the constant refrain that we have had money and were refusing to spend it.
People like to quote Swiss Ramble. Fair enough, he seems to know his stuff. Well then, it shouldn’t be forgotten that this time last year he estimated our transfer fund at about 25-35m quid. With the sales of the Dutchman and Song, that money went unspent. A valid cause of criticism certainly, but the pot was hardly enough for us to challenge the top three in any event.
Now, with the new Sponsorship deals, things are clearly different. We have the money to buy top drawer. That we haven’t is a fucking disaster. That is why people are “turning”, not because they have suddenly decided that the shit that some people have been spouting for the last eight years is any less smelly.
Demonstrations? Do want you want, but count me out.
Head of Comedy? Position rejected.
Off to take my blood pressure.
TaBS: Too right mate!
A brief post to wholly endorse Snowy’s post @ 376.
Says it all for me.
Well said, tabs.
If only some of the wisdom and passion on this board could be injected into the management and boardroom.
Good post Tabs!
Just to add to it for tha past two seasons added to this whole mess as transfers were really badly managed!
Panic buys etc loosing top players too didn’t help matters!
433takeabowson & 427N7 Gooner
Fantastic. Do you guys go to games? What if we form a nucleus of support ?
416Thierry Wrightkamp
Dear Thierry, i dont believe the situation we are in makes for a call to arms or any sort of revolutions. We are not under any tyranny, we just lost a football match in which the referee was a disgrace, to say the least. Of course you can complain and protest, i dont mind that, as long as it is done with civility.
I have accepted long time ago that the pride of Arsenal is to stick one up them sugar daddy clubs and our biggest advantage for that is the manager. Surely things dont go as planned all the time but i wont fault him for his efforts or loyalty. I know he wants whats best for us. I feel safe that he is navigating the ship. The captain is not responsible for the voyage orders, the shipowner is.
It looks like Sp*rs have agreed a deal with Anzhi for Willian. They are working or Lamela too.
It pains me to say, but if this happens, I don’t fancy our chances of St. Totteringham happening this year. You can say whatever you want about the neighbors, but this summer they are doing exactly what it’s needed to overcome us. Funny thing is that, we as well, are doing exactly what it’s needed for them to overcome us.
Why is Willian not seen as a top quality we were supposed to be looking for, I don’t have a clue. Last year he demolished Cuntski on his own. If he becomes the Sp*rs player they will replace Bale with a player of similar qualities for a third of a price. I’ll be really mad if they get him.
Meanwhile, looks like Dick Law will arrive in Valencia this afternoon to negotiate deal for Vicente Guaita. Can see that one happening.
437Thundertinygooner : If only some of the wisdom and passion on this board could be injected into the management and boardroom.
Dont forget fans too. It is illogical to accept that fans know it all and are 100% right in their accusations towards the Arsenal. They are just frustrated and just shooting around like in the Far West. Fans do tend to be fickle. For instance, the treatment Wenger gets even from our fans is something to be ashamed of in my opinion. Then again football fans are like that generally speaking. Hero one day, villain the next.
This is something we should all agree to. There is no excuse for the vitriolic attacks on the Manager who has carried us the last 17 years. Blind following? I hate that term. We follow cause we know he wants whats best for us. We are convinced his ways will bring us trophies like he has done before. And in any event wherever he takes us it will be infinately better from where he picked us up from. That for me is enough to show the man the respect he deserves. Yelling at him like a gorilla from the jungle is not on. Sorry if im beating on the same drum, but Saturday, watching grown men shouting abuse at Wenger made me want to puke. Completely out of order.
Pucker up TaBS. I would have published that. Agree with every word.
Tabs @ 433
Post of the summer.
Simple as that.
Take a bow son.
top quality work there, tabs!
TaBS,
I am surprised that you took so much time to get quite so wound up, but please allow me to reply to a few of your accusations, as you have clearly directed much of that tirade at comments that I and others that think as I do have made:
Something is indeed rotten in the state of Denmark (and not just NB!) and I believe that I have stated on many occasions throughout my posts that it is unclear who exactly is to blame too. Board, Arsene, all of the above? Who can really know. The fact that we are even agreeing at this point surprises me because you have seen fit to be quite so vitriolic in your response it would lead any reasonable person to think that we have nothing at all in common.
I fear that we are past the point of minor surgery in that area. No small change is likely to fix a problem that, in YOUR opinion, may well be some sort of Mexican stand-off between our manager and chief executive. A problem that the rest of the board, including the owner, have thus allowed to fester and affect so much of what we are SUPPOSED to do to function correctly, if not successfully, as a football club. I would even dare to suggest that it is affecting our ability to correctly function as a business.
You are, of course, correct in your assertions that the reasons for the failures since 2005 are “…complex, various, and have differed from Season to Season…” that we are even accepting now that they were failures is a quantum leap in the state of the conversation. That does not mean they were not failures and it does not preclude those that presided over them from receiving criticism from those that feel that they should perform better in their chosen jobs. I am pretty sure that even Stan knew that these football clubs have these things called fans that foot a chunk of the bill and tend to get riled if there team fails to perform in the manner in which they, rightly or wrongly, believe their team should perform and their club should behave.
To suggest that this summer is different because of IG’s statement is flawed at it’s most basic level but has alctually given me the opportunity to qualify something that I have felt for some time now. We have CONSTANTLY been told that there is money to spend if the manager wants it and yet it now appears that not only was that a lie all along (or a dirty great stretching of the truth at the very least) but those in charge of the well-being of OUR club (like it or not, you don’t have any more claim to the Arsenal nor any opinion of it than I or anybody else that has followed them for 5 minutes, 5 years of 5 decades) were actually stupid enough to openly announce that there was more than “money to spend” but shitloads of it and we would be spending it forthwith like some kind of Brewsters Millions (without the whole being secretive about it part).
And THAT is the 8 year problem…The constant lies, the subterfuge, the grey areas in every single fucking statement made to the point where nobody but nobody knows what the fuck is going on any more, aside from a total, public abject failure to achieve any level of success that places a cup in the trophy cabinet.
A shift in power
The new stadium won’t affect the transfer budget
We have a team capable of winning the league
The manager has money to spend
We know the areas in which we must strengthen and we will do so
And so many others.
THESE are the overriding problem. Not the failure to deliver any titles or trophies but the claim that we would sweep all before us. Not the budgetary constraints, the fact that we were told there would be none. Not the fact that the manager has no money to spend, the fact that we were told he did and he chose not to spend it. Not that the club should have a perfect team all the time, but it should at least be the best it could be given that we knew where it had failings and we would address those problems even though, for 8 years, we never actually have.
The biggest problem that exists within the disgruntled masses is that we simply do not have any faith in what they say, what they do and what they want for our club any more, and that is a DIRECT result of 8 years of neglecting to act upon their own statements, deductions and failings.
So, I hope you see, although I have a feeling that you won’t, that this is ENTIRELY a continuation of what has gone before. The more shallow day to day stuff may be slightly changing and evolving all the time, but the root problem is the same thing it was from the moment we were promised a change in the power structure of English football and all the other lies and misdirections that followed.
You yourself quote the £25-30m assumed to have been available last season that went unspent. Do you really want a list of the two or three players that other teams bought for a collective cost of around that figure that could have made a huge difference to last seasons campaign. That may have been the difference between nothing as usual or a cup win or at least a final to enjoy?
We sold our best player and arguably the best player in the league to ManUre and then did nothing, NOTHING to replace him. Even though we had £25-30m sat there waiting to be used for EXACTLY that purpose.
I actually feel that the main reason I have been coming here to the bar for quite so long, be that to simply read or actually get involved in the debate, is because all reasonably presented opinions are welcome. No ideas are stupid ideas. Everybody is accepted. Your claim that I or anybody that feels the way I feel are in some way “pleased we are “that others are finally “seeing sense” and coming round to their “way of thinking”” and yet you fail to realise that “our” way of thinking is that we want nothing more than the best for Arsenal Football Club and that we can, and as Steve T put it best, “be the best we can be”.
With the keystone cops show taking up all of the front and centre, I think it is safe to say that we are not even close to that. Is it too much to suggest that a long period of unquestioned, blind faith from the supporters must take a decent amount of the responsibility for that?
To qualify something that you could not have gotten more wrong, there is no “told you so” going on from my side of the wall here. I am pleased to be able to actually debate the problems for the first time, not pleased that they exist. I am pleased that most, obviously not all, are at least tolerant of the idea that there are some deep-rooted problems at our club and we are able to talk about what changes may or may not be necessary to fix them. I am pleased that there is a place where all opinions are welcome again, as they always were on match day, as they always were in the pub before or after the game, as they fucking well should be.
But wading in swinging your patronising stick at anybody that fails to see how right YOU are whilst claiming some sort of joy in their desire to just talk things through and habe their voice heard is tantamount to heresy is nothing short of childish and it surprises me that you feel that you have any right to speak to anybody here like that at all. Things are changing, or things should change, in the way a large number of people perceive out club. Maybe we are right, maybe not. Maybe there should be changes at the top, maybe not. Maybe we will win a trophy with the squad that we have right now, maybe not. But you have no single right to control the conversation, as that is ALL that it is.
As for “fuck right off”, I am pretty sure that, yet again, were it one of “us” participants here, we would receive warnings or posting would be deleted for treatment like that.
We have not seen exactly eye to eye over a great deal surrounding our club for a while now TaBS, but I have never, EVER been the least bit abusive or rude to you simply because of our differences in opinion. Quite the opposite in fact, I have always looked to you for a reasoned opinion that tends to have the ability to put a reality on things that I sometimes miss through my passion.
Your last post was a fucking long way from any of that and I hope that reading it back you would like to retract a few chunks of it as I have done with a few of my posts over the years and have usually, after a short period and a bit of soul-searching.
I would like to finish up with this:
“…the shit that some people have been spouting for the last eight years is any less smelly.”
I cannot think of any single Gooner that I know, have known or have read here that has been saying ANY of this for 8 years. I personally got to the point where I believe enough is enough on Saturday afternoon and, if you took the time to remember or read back to the last few posts I made last season (about 6 games before the season finished) even then I was point-blank refusing to call for ANYBODY’S head. The media claim there are lots of them, but I fail to meet them, see them or hear them almost 100% of the time.
I never, EVER read Le Groan though, so maybe that helps.
I offer a pint of whatever you would like although I sadly do so in fear that you will simply throw it at me. I hope not.
A rare venture on to the drinks…. heh!
But well said Tabs & N7.
Now….. where’s the barman?!
Tabs,
IG has done a good job in re-negotiating the commercial deals. But let’s be frank and honest here, while that in itself is a commendable achievement, its wasn’t exactly the most difficult thing to do when you consider the poverty of the previous deals we were tied to and the fact that they were coming to a close anyway. AFC are not exactly “a hard sell” from a commercial perspective – there’s a new stadium in a world capital with a manager who plays attractive footie with a track record of CL qualification. But that’s his job and no doubt he was only too keen to advertise how well he’s done. But as N7 remarked earlier, you’d be very foolish to think you could put pressure on Wenger to spent enormous amounts on players. In this context, I fail to see or understand why people think there is a stand-off between the IG and Wenger? And maybe I’m wrong in saying that Tabs, maybe I’m the one that’s missing something here? Because I understood that IG caveated his pronouncements on the financial strength by saying ‘what many people would regard as being a good player, does not necessarily mean that Wenger thinks the same way’….?
Would Wenger really be playing politics at this juncture in his career? I really don’t think so. No, I actually believe we are trying to sign world class players. Wenger wants to go out on a high. We’re after players that other clubs will not only want to maximise profit from, but in some cases, get replacements in, if at all feasible to save face etc. We have actively tried to sign top class players throughout this window. Everyone (from Higuain, to Suarez, to Bender) that we have bid for has been immediately advertised from the highest tree top. Why? Because no-one wants to trade with Wenger, because he’s smart, he wants value, he has an eye for a player etc………
The forthcoming deadline forces serious decisions to be made. It forces valuations to be crystallised. It reduces the risk of being gazumped. It prevents clubs dithering. It facilitates the club getting the best value for money. We have cleared the decks so I believe that serious players will be bought. Whether we manage to get all our targets only time will tell. Until then, without really knowing much more of the real facts, there’s little we can do but wait and see. But one thing we will learn for certain, is whether there is actually a divide between Wenger and IG.
A final point of note, but an important one, made by David Walsh in this weekends times: Of the really big transfers in world football this window, none of them have come to England. Cavani, Falcao, Neymar, Isco have all chosen France or Spain. Cesc, Costa, Goetze and Lewandowski have rebuffed enormous offers from English clubs. Is it all down to money? Maybe you could say that for the PSG or Monaco transfers, but I’ve no doubt that many of those players could have earned more in England.
And for the record, TaBS, lots in there I do agree with too. Just ran out of the will to type any more!
Standing ovation for TaBS. Absolutely nails everything I think about the lumpen headed ‘8 years’ bollocks merchants.
And applause too for posts 427 and 443.
Well in chaps, think you all deserve to take a collective bow.
*Applauds TaBS and N7.*
Tabs @ 433. Please stop interrupting the TW attempt at hijacking the Goonerholic blog. Brevity and common sense will get you nowhere young man.
8ball – around 418 – some good sense in there.
N7 – 427 – nice positive rant. Hypocrisy clearly rules in football.
Well said tabs.
TW@450 “ran out of the will to type any more!” – I for one am grateful for small mercies.
:Smiley:
Noosa, let’s not personalise anything here please. TW, unlike some, debates respectfully, which is all I ask.
This place is better for that sort of exchange.
Thanks.
Goonerholic @ 456 – Fair enough.
In which case, may I simply concur with Pangloss @ 455.
UTA.
The reason that there is so much bafflement, not to say anger, at the current situation is not because this Summer is a continuation of what has gone before,
It is for me.
Here’s a serious question.
When Ivan Gazidis talked about all this spending power we had, bearing in mind we are factually not broke and haven’t been throughout the last eight years and that the manager and various board members over the years had spoken of the fact we could, if we wanted to, spend £30m on a player … did you really believe we would buying properly world class big name players and paying them world class money?
I didn’t. This manager has not and will not do that kind of thing, hence the bit in italics. It’s not the promise of this summer being broken that angers me but that we (meaning those not in thrall to the manager) knew it would be. As it has been every summer since God knows when.
The only difference this summer is that we haven’t sold anyone for big money. Largely because we have nobody left to sell.
Applauds Tabs @433.
My eyes hurt – can’t keep up with this posting rate.
And now we find ourselves in a situation where we are chasing a fairly average midfielder and we will end up paying over the odds for him, if we do buy him, because we didn’t go after the real talent.
We are going to have, if anyone does come in, the same level of player we have been stuck with for years. Mid-range, over-priced.
Thierry, I shall try to be brief (a discipline you yourself might wish to take on board), or at least as brief as your latest opus allows me to be –
– Guess what? It wasn’t really aimed at you, apart from the throwaway “head of comedy” line. I had no idea that we really disagreed. I have to confess that I rarely get to the end of your posts, as I tend to lose the will to live after the fifteen billionth paragraph. I find it telling that you clearly thought it was aimed at you however.
– “so wound up”, “quite so vitriolic” – Really? Others seem to have liked it, including the Guv’nor. Oh dear.
– 3rd para – why do you capitalise “YOUR opinion” as presumably some sort of ridiculous emphasis that my opinion is not gospel. Who said it was? Certainly not me. What part of “my guess, and it is just a guess” didn’t you understand?
– I don’t really accept that there was a “failure” from 2005 to 2011. Again, that is just my opinion. I don’t think that the money was there to do much more than what we did. No “quantum leap”. I think that we should have done better since 2011, where it’s my opinion that the Board might have chosen to be less conservative in their spending once the financial crisis had passed and Highbury was all but sold off. That is an opinion I have expressed since my very first posts on here in early 2011. Again, no quantum leap, no shifting of position. Please note in the above the words “think” and “opinion”.
– If you don’t think that IG’s statement, in the light of massively improved commercial deals at the end of the Summer was wholly different in tone or substance from anything that we have heard before in the last 8 years, then I’m sorry, I think you have got it badly wrong. Please note the words “I think” in that statement.
– “But wading in swinging your patronising stick at anybody that fails to see how right YOU are whilst claiming some sort of joy in their desire to just talk things through and habe their voice heard is tantamount to heresy is nothing short of childish and it surprises me that you feel that you have any right to speak to anybody here like that at all.”
Where did i say I was right? Again please tell me what part of “It’s my guess, and my guess only” didn’t you understand?
– “But you have no single right to control the conversation, as that is ALL that it is”
Perlease! Let’s just have a quick count up of the words I’ve written, and the words you’ve written since Saturday shall we? If anyone is trying to “control” the conversation (hahahaha, as if I had the power to do that! what an utterly ludicrous idea), then I’m afraid that based merely on the words written, then that person is you.
-No retractions. Deal with it.
-Get an editor.
The fact that Wenger has yet to sign anyone shows a clear lack of planning. I think letting go of Higuain for the sake of an imaginary clause in Suarez’s contract was a terrible move, and its hard to forgive Wenger for it. He needs to get Rooney to make up for this otherwise he’ll have let the fans down badly.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.sport.pl/pilka/1,65082,14465005,Liga_hiszpanska__Gareth_Bale_blisko_Realu_Madryt_za.html&usg=ALkJrhhQR0ddhfBABbA-P1bgUJlH13QCLg
I appreciate both TW’s contributions as well as TaBS’s contributions.
I did not see TaBS’ post as being a pop at TW as much as a pop at the great mass of so called fans out there who have adopted a quasi-religious irrational anti-Wenger stance for 8 years. TW as he observes in 447 has rationally analysed the current position and like Steve T and myself – and I believe also TaBS and others I spoke to at the Tollie on Saturday, is astonished at our apparent ineptitude in the transfer market, our unpreparedness for the new campaign – which has clearly been aggravated by unexpected (but predictable injuries) – and the revelation that there has for a number of years been ‘economy with the truth/dissembling/lying (choose your favourite) when it came to communicating with the fans.
As observed above this last revelation leaves one incapable of swallowing anything at all that emanates from those entrusted with stewardship of the club we all follow.
Gooners are hurting at the moment and not just from Saturday’s result but more from the cumulative effect of the last several years (longer than the trophy-free ones actually – which simply highlight the problem for some). I know three longstanding season ticket holders who are attempting to trade in their renewed tickets for this season and have them re-imbursed for the remaining matches.
This is not a time for vicarious internecine abuse.
I agree with most of what each has said over recent weeks and I do not believe that I am either schizophrenic or irrational.
So as I said in 436 to TaBS:
Well said TW @447.
I must have blinked. I thought the Higuain deal fell through because a) Real failed to stand by their verbal acceptance of our offer and b) Higuain decided that Napoli was a club with a better chance of winning stuff than Arsenal. Now, it seems that we withdrew our offer.
Perhaps it’s not just the club that suffers from rear-end/arm joint confusion?
Pangloss @465 Do we really know who blinked first in the three way discussions between Arsenal, Higuain and Madrid? Is there a reliable disinterested source?
The only thing that is clear to me is that we stalled in that deal because we were misinformed presumably by his agent that there was a buyout clause in Suarez’s contract and the man himself had publicly declared that he was ‘flattered by Arsenal’s interest’ i.e. prepared to sign.
The rest has of course been played out in the public arena thanks to the LFC Publicity Machine.
Me too Pangloss. Some people seem to want to blame everything on our Club and Arsene; Real Madrid behaved like the cunts we know them to be by adding £10million to the initial price they agreed with us for Higuain and people blame Arsenal for not allowing themselves to be fucked over, seriously?
Here’s my thought of the day regarding protests.
Sort of.
How about a petition to the board that the season ticket renewal date gets moved until AFTER the transfer window has closed?
Mark, if I was the Club and had even made signings and then got such a letter I’d agree with you then find a way to delay the announcement of signings till a day after season tickets renewal, that way people who give conditional support will hand in their tickets and people who are ready to give unconditional support can gobble it up.
MtS @ 468 – like your thinking. But I’m not sure the club could manage a 3 month hit to working capital.
Anyone know what season ticket income is? With 40k ST holders, plus 8k in Club Level (which was looking noticeably less than full on Saturday) it’s going to be somewhere north of £70m. That’s a hell of a hit on an annual turnover of £216m (or whatever it will be this year).
Doesn’t make me feel any better that it’s not being spent at the moment of course.
In other news…
http://newsthump.com/2013/08/20/arsene-wenger-joins-nation-in-not-giving-tiniest-shit-about-alan-pardews-feelings/
All very fair Joe.
We might , as you say, still rescue this Summer from the fires. It has to be said, though, that with each passing day, the chances of bringing in World Class additions get slimmer.
As for the AW/IG divide, as I said before, it was just a guess.
The injury situation appears to be a lot better than we thought. Monreal, Gibbs, Sagna, Ramsey and Rosicky are all in the squad. We are going to Turkey with a relatively strong side after all, a side that shall be more than capable of coming back home with a decent result. No excuses, just go in there and do the job.
Vigorous debate above. Bravo.
Lurky and cannonball, agree across the board. (hmmm, “board” … ya see what i did there, right??)
Two shows a night folks, I’m here all week. And please, try the veal.
Serioulsy now – Lurky, I was thinking the same thing.
Spurs to sell Bale and get Contrao in the deal.
They got Soldado, they virtually got Willian, they look to get Lamela. They got Capoue. They Got Hugo Lloris. And they got rid of Dempsy (I’m a Yank, as you all know, but even I understand he’s a Mid-Tabler, at best.) They dumped several of their dead wood. AVB is an arrogant arse who takes himself way to seriously, but Spurs have done real business this Summer. Being objective, one has to be impressed. How well they’ll actually do, noone knows. But if you’re a Spurs fan, you gotta be pysched.
And, in comparison, if you’re an Arsenal fan, you gotta be really worried. And I am.
baff@466 (2:16 pm to be certain, in case any weeding occurs)
What makes it clear to you that we colled our interest in Higuain after we heard about a Suarez release clause? Was there a reliable disinterested source (quoting your first paragraph)?
It seems at least possible to me that Real pulled the plug on that deal when a higher offer came in and we turned the the more damaged goods available from Merseyside.
Damn, I couldn’t decide between us “cooling our interest” and “stalling the deal” @477 (3:06pm) above. Ended up falling between two stools as usual.
Encouraging news Lars.
Sagna = manufactured from titanium and covered in diamond coated graphene sheets, reinforced with something else really hard (like dried on Weetabix or summat)
Fair point, Pangloss. Our interest in Higuain cooled/stalled around the time we suddenly got interested in Suarez. It is not,/b> clear which came first – my bad English. (Second language, mate)
447Thierry Wrightkamp
2nd paragraph. If it is unclear who is to blame then how come the manager gets abused and called incompetent? Every business, company or organisation has a structure, a hierarchy. Owners, Directors, Managers, Staff. It is unlikely that the managers or members of staff take final decissions on what gets spent or not. This is common sense. In your business i doubt you would let the secretary dictate the company’s expenditure or budget.
3rd paragraph. It is common knowledge and universally recognised that one of the most efficiently run football companies in the world is Arsenal FC. This is evident from the financial results, the clubs position in world ranking system and the ISO quality certifications the club has obtained for its quality management.
4th paragraph. You mention this : “and tend to get riled if there team fails to perform in the manner in which they, rightly or wrongly, believe their team should perform and their club should behave. ” So you are saying that whether the fan is right or wrong his opinion should be taken into account. Isnt that selfish? I thought no person is bigger than the club. So how come does the fan think that his wrongful or rightful opinion should overrule the decissions, strategies and plans of the company ?
paragrpah 5 and 6. I dont understand how any fan can demand or expect the Club to share its plans with the fans. Since when is such transparency in the Clubs internal matters a subject for public consumption? That is for owners and shareholders and maybe some members of the staff.
paragraph8. You say this : “the fact that we were told he did and he chose not to spend it.”. He chose not to spend it? Even if i take your word for it (which i dont but anyway for the sake of the discussion i will) i dont see what the problem is. Maybe you are forgetting that Arsene Wenger is not some clueless manager who needs tons of money to develop players and build teams. His expertise lies in developing footballers not being a babysitter for prima-donnas.
paragraph 9 . Too aggresive and extreme.
paragraph10. You say this: “the moment we were promised a change in the power structure of English football” That is a lie. Noone ever promised anyone any silverware or signed any contract to a deadline that by year X the club will deliver Y number of trophies. As for this change of power, you cant expect to dominate against united chelsea and city when you are still repaying a stadium as a company.
paragraph 12 or 11. You say this: “No ideas are stupid ideas.” Well the idea that wenger is solely responsible for what the COMPANY spends as a group is a bit stupid, if not naive. And the idea that he should be removed cause he is taking us back is beyond stupid, bordering on lunacy. Between ’53 and ’89 the club had one double to show for it, the ’70-’71. Its not like Arsenal was storming through the 60s, 70s and 80s collecting every trophy available in domestic or international football.
paragraph 13: ” Blind following” Please do not disrespect us or our knowledge on football. We, well I, support knowingly and through the experience of watching this manager and his team play football. I understand what he is trying to build for Arsenal and i also understand the difficulties of it and i also recognise the enemies he is up against.
paragraph 14. You say this : “Things are changing, or things should change, in the way a large number of people perceive out club.” And what if these people are wrong? Why change? Who are they to demand change? What if their perceptions are wrong?
I dont know about tabs but i certainly dont see eye to eye amateurs who want to dictate to professionals how to do their job. If i came to your line of work and demanded you were removed from your position cause I THOUGHT/PERCEIVED you to be doing a bad job, you wouldnt see eye to eye to me either. Right or Wrong?
Always friendly,
Cannonball
Bad editing too 🙁
@465 – Re the Higuain deal, I think it was David Ornstein of the BBC who said that Real Madrid did not receive a single bid from Arsenal after we’d agreed everything with the player and his agent. Now if that is true, it suggests to me that the negotiators are doing their job and the manager is not. That they lined up a top striker and for whatever reason, the manager did not sanction a bid.
There is no way Dick Law or whoever negotiated the deal only for Gazidis to say “Nah, we won’t bother now”. This smacks of the right hand operating without the left hand’s permission and then refusing to sign off on what’s been agreed.
Whatever, it is a fucking shambles.
Correction to the above – the left hand not signing off on the deal.
cannonball @ 481: A very reasoned set of arguments and well articulated opinions.
I agree that our personal optimisms around what we think the team Arsenal is capable of achieving (which is primarily due to, in modern times, Arsene’s genius ) may have a profound enough disconnect with the overarching reality in Football, especially finance today. As you have correctly said, no one can ‘promise’ a ‘trophy’ or a ‘power change’.
However, by the same measure, I don’t think Arsene is infallible or above criticism either, especially regarding obvious football matters like (a) ignoring the squad needs for numbers in key positions, (b) repeated tactical problems ending up in repeated on-the-field failures, (c) the very noticeable drop in the quality of football (by his own standard) being played etc.
Cynic,
You wrote: “…think it was David Ornstein of the BBC who said that Real Madrid did not receive a single bid from Arsenal after we’d agreed everything with the player and his agent. Now if that is true, it suggests to me that the negotiators are doing their job and the manager is not.”
Maybe you are right – but i’m not following how your conclusion flows from the premise – or that statement of the BBC. Is it soley the manager’s provice to offer, discuss, haggle over contractural terms for players and terms of sales with those player’s clubs? Or, rather, is it the negotiator’s job to, ya know … negotiate?
It is unclear why/how the manager would be tasked with: 1) running the first team, 2) strategy, preparations, man management, dealing with injuries, and 3) identifying players that could fit his squad/system and presumably working with the club scouts on same — and then 4) also taking the time, effort, and money to negotiate with some other team’s negotiators — all at the expense and in place of doing at least items 1-3 [that appear to be his primary job, that is, … managing the first team]
Seems a tortured conclusion in my humble opinion. In fact, based on what you wrote and my, admittedly limited, understanding of a premier league manager’s job, your conclusion seems exactly backwards. The negotiators failed to do their job, which is, to negotiate with the player and the player’s other club to close the deal.
Just asking.
Now, must again get back to the world of productivity.
Cheers all.
bath@481 (3:19pm)
🙂
cynic@482 (3:24pm). I regret that “David Ornstien of the BBC” doesn’t meet the gold standard of “reliable disinterested source”. BBC correspondants have, for me, ceased to qualify for that automatically ever since I heard Mihir Bose report that Cesc Fabregas was off to Barcelona a full year before it happened.
It could be that argued that Bose is a special case, but if the Beeb as an organisation can allow one cnut to work for them, then I’m sorry, the cnutishness of all their employees has to be revalidated.
Thank you Dr Faustus.
Noone is above criticism. There is just a saying that goes :
Those who can, practice. Those who cant, preach. Those who cant do either, criticise.
There is a reason why Shearer sits on the panels and mouths off, He cant manage or coach and he cant teach/preach to anyone about coaching either, so he is restricted to criticising.
Of course Wenger and the Club and the players have made mistakes. I dont deny it. But there are external factors too which are out of the club’s sphere of influence and quite simply unpredictable. I can not blame my football club or my manager when corrupt rich oligarchs are allowed to enter the EPL or refs like Taylor get away with such one-sided displays. There must be a balance in any form critique, or else its an agenda.
Very good work @464, bath. Again.
TW –
I too have found a lot to agree with in your posts, much of which is a matter of fact. I can say that because the text relates to things that we have all witnessed . Some, however, is possibly not.
The difficulty comes, I think, when personal interpretation is applied to events and repeatedly hammered home as fact.
As Tabs said, the reasons for the club’s failure to deliver silverware in the last eight years are complex and various.
Meltdown at Birmingham in 2008 over an horrendous injury coinciding with some very difficult personal circumstances for some players, cost us a striker and, very probably, a league title.
A bizarre loss to the same club in the final, cost us a League Cup – not the top prize we all crave, but possibly the catalyst to so much more.
Losing our goalkeeper in the opening minutes of a Champions League Final in 2006 – yes, a Champions League Final four years into a period of financial hardship – quite possibly prevented us from winning Europe’s top prize.
So it hasn’t only been eight years of complete incompetence. As is the Arsenal way, it has been littered with “nearlys” and “disappointment”, but also sprinkled with magic moments.
And, no, that is not, and will not be, good enough, but quite a lot of it has been good fun too.
There’s never any harm in constructive criticism or asking whether things could be (even) better. We all have different personalities and will all react to success and failure differently, and should be tolerant of that fact.
Interpretations of success and failure will vary too, but that is all they are.
None of us here actually knows the reasons for the club’s current hiatus.
Some have unshakeable belief that all is well and in hand behind the scenes, others have a very different view.
Passion gives rise to love, and hate – two emotions that are often not that far apart. Consequently, loyalty and the benefit of the doubt by one person, is viewed by another as blind sycophancy.
Criticism by one party, is viewed as abuse by another.
Ultimately we all share a passion for the same thing, and a complete lack of ability to bring it about.
That’s probably the thing that makes us most angry – not each other.
Now to go and work on the ‘brevity’ bit. Sorry Tabs. 😉
🙂
Good stuff Trev.
Some great posts above, too many to mention individually, and leaves little to add.
Don’t really get those who have apparently been saying “Wenger out” for the last eight years. Just to refresh my memory, would that be from the year 04-05, just after we won the FA Cup? Or 05-06, where we reached the Champions League final? Even in the next couple of years we reached the Carling Cup final, and then had the promising season which slumped after Eduaro’s terrible injury, where we missed the league by a mere 4 points. All along we played attractive football with a young squad while losing key players. That the last couple of years have been a disappointment is largely because of the high standards set. All this ignores the fact that the stadium, training facilities, playing philosophy and the Arsenal brand have been reinvented during his reign, majorly during these 8 years, which effectively ensures the club will be a force for the foreseeable future.
Clearly this summer has not been managed well and the signings that will be made in the next two weeks should have been completed earlier. Though increasingly in the minority, I still believe Wenger is the man for the job, and the best one to take the club forward. Time will tell of course, but given that this is probably the first transfer window in recent times where he really has the license to spend, it may not be the worst idea to stay calm till its done. I would be surprised if he is unable to find his feet in the market, despite its changes. With his economics degree, don’t see him being unable to grasp or handle the nuances of supply and demand, negotiation and changing (changed?) dynamics. Besides, if Harry Redknapp make signings, it can’t be all that hard 🙂
@ Homer,
The spuds are displaying all the attributes of a club that are desperate to get in among the big boys in the league and put the club in a favourable position going into the building of their new urinal. Pain can sometimes be the best form of growth. Complacency the slowest and most painful of deaths.
It looks as though they are performing as we did last season when we knew our best player would be sold and getting in all the staff early before the rest of the football world can take advantage of your new, well publicised wealth. The spuds actually have a squad that are good enough to be on the periphery of the title fight this season.
The pain of looking up, especially in the last two seasons, and always seeing Red & White budgie smugglers has clearly had an impact. AVB may be many things but you certainly get the feeling that ambitious is somewhere in there. I felt that with the sale of Bale would they improve their squad in the long run and follow the same model Wenger did when he sold Anelka but used the money to sign Ljundberg, Pires and Henry. Players that weren’t quite world class but not far off and young enough to have a major influence on the clubs destiny.
Our manager has seemingly allowed end of season runs and 4th place cups to paper over the cracks and erase all the deficiencies and weaknesses in our squad. His fames inability to see penalties and incidents appears to have extended now to the team and what its lacking.
The players are telling him, via the press that they need help. How fed up/desperate must they be to collectively use the media to get this point across. If I knew better I would suggest that perhaps even they have a sense that the manager can’t see the wood for the trees.
They know better than any of us where we are as a team and a squad. They know what they are capable of and they are asking for help. And thus far, they are being denied that help.
Now players possibly in the ‘red’ will have to play some very difficult games in a short space of time whilst hearing of other clubs signing the kind of players they themselves have been asking for.
I really don’t see how much longer the manager can or should be allowed to go on like this.
My biggest concern still is that with the current board in place, overseeing this unnecessary and ridiculous shambles, I have no faith whatsoever that they would replace AW with a better more competent manager.
As Steve T asked, what are they in this for?
It is funny… everyone agrees that Arsene Wenger has the final say on everything to do with football, but the minute a criticism at laid at his door for failing to authorise a transfer, it is suddenly Dick Law’s fault, or Ivan Gazidis’ fault, or Stan Kroenke’s fault and not down to the bloke who by his own admission makes all the decisions. It is also interesting that whenever he gets stick off the press, he tries to shift the blame by talking about a team doing the work to buy players.
Now I have no doubt that it is true. We have a team and he is not working alone. However, it is undeniable that nobody is signed unless Wenger says so and he is the only person who makes that ultimate decision. If we are not signing players there is only one man to blame, at the end of the day, and if you believe we were in for Higuain, as everyone does, the only man who could have killed it is Arsene Wenger.
Excuse typos.
It is funny… everyone agrees that Arsene Wenger has the final say on everything to do with football,
Football matters ( tactics, style, subs, training) are the managers area.
What is spent by the company though, is owners area.
It is a bit insane to think that one man, the manager, an employee, has final say in the decision making policy within a privately owned company.
Pangloss @ 485,
Im pretty sure Mihir Bose is still telling all and sundry that the Emirates will never be built 🙂
Strange how hes kept so quiet on The Cnuts New Ground !
I think what I really want to convey is that the Spuds look ‘hungry’ and desperate for that 4th place cup.
We should look at least as hungry and desperate to get back to the top of the league. There’s nothing about us that strikes me of a club/ manager that wants to be top of the league. The sale of Van Pussy was evidence of that. We are appear happy to make up the numbers.
The past two season the Spuds have paid the price for their arrogance and celebrating in March when the season ends in May. This time they are going balls out to make sure that doesn’t happen. They also know that should they finish above us they put a huge amount of pressure on the club and the manager.
I would just like us to look like we give a fuck and want it so bad that we are prepared to go balls out to try and get it.
cannonball @ 486: I think criticisms even by the non-practitioners are a fundamental part of an authentic discourse. Of course, you are right, there is criticism and there is ‘criticism’.
I for one never expected ‘big money signings’, I don’t want any guarantee about trophies, I just want us to compete playing our brand of football with a team with enough depth and variety. We don’t need the Falcaos and Suarezes for that, but we may need a slightly modified way of doing things.
Watching Dortmund for the last few seasons made us all realize that all of that are still possible without having to pay ‘Man City’ money to get players.
Love you Tabs.
NB1@490 (4:08) A week or two ago, when Arsenal players were quoted as saying that we needed signings, the argument ran that they were surely closer to what was going on than the fans so we could be confident that efforts were being made to get in new signings.
NB1@495 (4:30) So, the LWC’s know that by finishing above us in the table they will put great pressure on the club and the manager. Let’s show the world that Arsenal fans can do that job better than any bunch of swamp-dwellers.
If it’s not obvious why “they” are in the business of being senior employees at Arsenal, then there are (at least) two possible interpretations:
“They” have nefarious purposes of their own, because of which they are undermining the club; or
“They” are straining every sinew to do what’s best for the club but have been unsuccessful so far.
I know which I would prefer to believe and, stangely, it’s the one I think more likely. Obviously, “they” are open to criticism for their current lack of success, and should that continue, it would be disappointing if “they” were allowed to continue ‘in post’.
The trouble with conspircay theories is that they almost always end up becoming more and more complicated and collapse under their own weight. It’s all a cock up. You know it makes sense.
@493 – It is not insane at all. Commercial decisions etc are nothing to do with him but everything football related is. He puts the value on players, he decides what they are paid (hence the ludicrous “socialist” wage structure) and he decides who we do and do not sign.
We are actually in a position where the board are giving him everything he needs financially, and then some, to get what he needs. And he doesn’t want it.
To be sure there are things wrong on the board side of transfer negotiating but at the end of it all it is him and him alone who says yes to a signing. Nobody else. Do you really think for a moment that Wenger would go to Gazidis and say he wants, say, Suarez and Gazidis is the one who says no?
Do me a favour.
I’m not just blaming him but I’m not giving him the bye some others seem so keen to. There are no excuses for any of them.
Tabsed it?
496Doctor Faustus
Glad you can seperate the two – genuine critique from baseless frustrated reactions. As for Dortmund, i think people are getting carried away. What Dortmund is doing now and for the last two years, we did it between 1996-2006. Dortmund and Klopp have taken whole leaves out of Wenger’s books.
499Cynic
Well yes but all his decissions on players are made in relation to what the Owners allow him to spend.
“We are actually in a position where the board are giving him everything he needs financially, and then some, to get what he needs. And he doesn’t want it. ”
Everything he needs? How sure are you of that? Why hasnt the owner then or an owner’s representative come out and say
“Step aside Arsene, im bringing Suarez even if he costs 80million. Do you need Casillas too? Ill go and get him for you Arsene.”
I have not seen anything like that happening. Have you?
Why can’t we have a Director of Football ? Chelsea and Citeh have one. Stan should appoint one. And constructive, respectful criticism, never hurt anyone 😉 To be honest, Arsene would have made a wonderful statesman. His views on the outrageous amounts of money being spent on players, is quite responsible. But he is fighting a losing battle. The bottom will fall out and he will be seen as a visionary. But in the meantime, he must learn to delegate and concentrate on what he does best.
Your last point is a bit ridiculous really. The idea that Gazidis would go out and spend £80m+ on players that Wenger may not want is a joke. Gazidis and the board are there to give him the funds to spend.
If they say “Here’s £80m for Suarez and Casillas” that’s their job and that is what they are doing. If he then refuses because he doesn’t think they are worth it or doesn’t want them, that’s up to him.
They would never take the buying of players out of his hands and I’m glad they don’t because I think at board level they are out of their depth anyway.
Cynic – How many are giving him a “bye”? Not many as far as I can see.
Esso – Reciprocated 😉
Anyway it’s not worth carrying on because you obviously think he is perfection and doing nothing wrong. And not many people agree with you these days.
@ 498
No conspiracy theory, just trying to make sense of what I’m seeing.
Cynic, what imean to say is that ambition in sports comes from the absolute top of the hierarchy. The owner decides what the team will go for, not the manager. Look at Roman, Berlusconi, Laporta previously at Barca, The Glazers, The Sheiks, Perez etc. They wanted the titles and invested accordingly. We have been investing just enough to make it to top4 without risking going bankrupt. The owners have been hiding behind their Manager’s brilliance to get them to Champions League money while spending the MINIMUM.
Heynces, Mourinho, Guardiola, Ancelotti etc do not decide on policy or ambition…they are given budgets and execute the owners wishes.
Please note: some of you may have experienced dizziness and even nausea during the course of the afternoon.
Nothing to worry about; just the bi-annual North London phantom “power shift”. Next occurrence forecast for February 2014.
Thank fuck football’s still played on grass and not on SSN. We’d have been relegated by now.
504Cynic
My friend today with 80 million you cant even buy bale apparently.
Plus you cant bring Suarez or Iker and have them earning 200k per week when Aaron has broken his leg for the club and has been through shit the last 5 years and is earning less than 80k.
The manager pays attention to such details. He is a classy fella.
@ N7
Haha, fair enough. I haven’t watched any of that more listened to Talkshite.
Interesting.
Final “yes” do it, or “no” don’t do it, sure i see that as AW territory. Perhaps on the valuation, too. Econ degree and all that. But the thought of him personally negotiating terms with the other club is absurd. I’m sorry, I just do not buy that.
I figure a fair coparision could be: attorneys/solicitors do something similar. The hired help (the lawyers) do the negotiating based on the client’s parameters, e.g., no more than X millions. Client gets final “okay,” as in, okay I’ll pay that much – do the deal. The sweat and effort – e.g. negotiating – is not done by the client. That is my point. And I’m not trying to give you a hard time cynic, or North bank.
So that is my problem with the statement, “Now if that is true, it suggests to me that the negotiators are doing their job and the manager is not.” Esp in the Higuian case where Real said no formal bid was made, only personal terms with the player. Well, isn’t all that the job of the negotiators? I’d say so.
Does anyone have anything other than supposition to support the notion that AW does the actual, face-to-face negotiating? I think its too easy to lay everything at the man’s door, sight unseen based largley on supposition.
I do agree that having too much power in one person is bad for any organisation. And by no means am I an AW worshiper.
IF it is true, however, and if AW is the one doing ALL the work, and I mean all of it – if we follow the literal words and meaning of cynic’s post, then that is just nuts. Not only is it too much power in one place, but its obviously too much responsibility for one person. WHat kind of organisation can affectivley or meanignfully opearte that way??? And if that is the case, what in hell is Dick Law being paid for – to drink stout and play Football Manager?
Seems that this thread poses more questions than it answers, if I’m being honest. Or, maybe I’m just not that well informed. Dunno.
So much for being productive today!
cannonball @ 502: On-the-field football performance is about ‘being carried away’, to transport yourself to a joyful aesthetic experience where the tribalism of ‘just winning’ sometimes take a back seat. In that sense, Dortmund has been sensational in recent season.
They have of course copied Wenger’s methods — as many many coaches around the world and in EPL — but does that not make you feel a bit wistful about what could have been if certain key decisions that Arsene has taken in the last few years had favored us a bit? I understand that it is easier to be wiser in hindsight and there are myriad factors influencing how the consequences of a decision take on their own paths.
However, he is our manager, even the talisman of the club, its public face and its outspoken proud guardian …. he is not just some random manager, he is rightly considered a visionary and a pioneer. That does mean that he would be held to a very high standard and would be criticized for all perceived failings.
One can criticize honestly while empathizing.
Errr yes you can, because Ramsey has his place in the pecking order and would not even get into the first eleven if everyone was fit.
And on that bombshell I will leave you to it.
I missed your 499 cynic.
Reading that it seems were in the same boat, more or less.
514Cynic
Will the new player play his heart out like Ramsey does though? Or do you hope to threaten the new player into performing because you are paying him a fortune? Ponder that for a minute…
513 Dr Faustus
“but does that not make you feel a bit wistful about what could have been if certain key decisions that Arsene has taken in the last few years had favored us a bit?”
Of course it does but i will also recognise that some of those key decisions were not his responsibility. The owner(s) could have said a NO to robin’s and/or cesc’s departure. They could also have said to the manager “Dont worry about salaries, we got that covered, here is 200m for you. Now go win us the league! That is what we want as owners, the title, so that we please our fans”. I dont think there has been any directive by the top of hierarchy to do so.
tabs I don’t love you, not since you insisted on buying me shandy 😉
Nice ruck in here this afternoon, I love a good fight, me. 😀
The price of a failed strategy Cynic. Am expensive price to pay eventually
For Cynic,
And what if Ramsey develops into an even better player than Paul Scholes ? Will you say it wasnt worth the wait? the sacrifice? The development?
So my dear fellow supporter cynic it becomes a matter of patience and whether we as fans have the stomach to go through the misery of watching them messing it up till they get it right. Our Manager does have the stomach for it and i stand behind him and the players.
There comes a point though when the manager and the players need the owners to ASSIST them with acts, not words.
Dr Z – Haha, didn’t tell you that the shandy had a large voddy thrown in.
Just to take the edge off 😉
zico @ 517 – you Jocks are just chanty rasselling troublemakers so yeez are.
Isn’t Willian the one who ripped us to shreds in the Champioins League, twice in a brief period of time a couple of seasons back. Did we just blink and let the Sp*rs pass us by?
TaBS @ 461
“YOUR” as in you have YOUR opinion, I have MY opinion and there should be room for both.
Nothing “telling” in that I felt that your comments were directed at me. Your last couple of lines were what did that. If I read to much into it, well that’s just too bad. Maybe you should explain yourself a little more and things wouldn’t be so murky. OH, that’s right, you don’t like long posts. Sorry. My bad.
Actually most “telling” in your claim that we don’t disagree and then choosing to disagree with pretty much everything that I have written in response to you and, absurdly, now attacking the manner in which I choose to write. Get an editor?!??! Get a fucking attention span. Should books always be less than 1,000 words so that you don’t lose the will to live before finishing them?! How disrespectful could you possibly be? You come to a place where opinion is invited but don’t like to read too much of it, in a place where the great majority of days sees tens of thousands of words typed here.
Controlling the conversation is not about quantity TaBS, it is about content. You chose to tell others what they should think, or, if as you claim that is not the case, maybe a few more words would have helped. I told others my opinion. Take it or leave it, i actually don’t care so much any more. But I will not spend my time being “shouted” at about it by you or anyone else for having one. Nobody is getting any joy out of the situation we find ourselves in but I am fucked if I am going to sit around and let the same thing repeat itself again whilst sitting in the corner and playing nice with the keyboard so as not to offend. I believe, genuinely, that the management structure of the club is incapable or unwilling to do what is necessary to deliver on THEIR promises. I don’t want Cavani, Casillas, Pique, Ronaldo & Messi but I do want the squad to be capable of fielding a competitive team this Saturday.
As for the Guvnor agreeing with you, hahahahaha! You just don’t get it, do you. Of course the Guvnor agrees with you. He always has and always will. You and three or four others are able to treat this place like it is yours and treat everybody and anybody that differs from your way of thinking like the shit on your shoes and know full well it will ALWAYS be supported.
Sound more like AFC than anywhere or anything else on earth.
If you choose to reply you may consider the fact that we both want the same thing, for our club to be successful, and start from that angle, remembering at all times that I am not a fucking Spurs fan and don’t deserve nor require to be spoken down to.
Hope that is sufficiently succinct for you, although I doubt it.
*yawns*
Short and sweet.
Football Bloody Football 🙂 !
Cannonball @ 479:
Well put that sir. I see a lot of what you are saying and i understand your point of view. Thank you for taking the time to reply in such a manner.
A couple of “ripostes”, if I may…
I do not work for a football club and I do not earn £7m per year to do my job in an industry that I knew, before accepting the job, was one of the most analysed, scrutinised and public on earth. I believe that taking criticism (and praise, for that matter) for your actions when you are the manager of a football club is a given before you take the gig and i am surprised that we are comparing my job to Arsene’s.
Put it another way (sorry, TaBS, this is probably where you lose the will to live, right!) I am not an economist nor a lawyer but I get a say on who will be the person to head up the structure required to manage all policy decisions for the country with my vote. In politics it is an accepted fact that those that don’t know everything get to choose who they think knows best. If you really, after seeing Gervinho leave this summer mainly, one assumes, for the lack of support from the stands, believe that the fans don’t get a say nor should they, surely that proves the point? How many managers have lost their jobs due to their position becoming untenable as a result of their relationship with the fans? No, sorry, but fans DO get a say, experts or not, right or not, and clubs know this. Thus it is a part of their responsibility to manage the expectations of those fans or fulfill them, whichever they choose. Arsenal have done neither for a very long time now. Broken promises and no trophies, not even close to one for that matter, is not a recipe for success in such a results driven business.
So you see, or at least I hope so, that I do not expect transparency and I do not expect to know what the internal business of the club is thus I do not expect the likes of IG to throw us to the market force Dennises with statements like we are rich and we are gonna spend it alllll!!!!! Or words to that effect. Replace most of the promises that this board and manager have made to the fans over the past 8 years and you will find that most, if not all, were not only unnecessary, but basically unfulfilled too.
The “power shift” that I mention was a quote from a Wenger presser just after winning the league in May 02. He himself said it. Not my opinion, not my desire to hear him say it either. I remember at the time cringing when thinking of the potential repercussions to this. Now look. Am I really a better marketing man than Wenger and the AFC board put together or was it yet another yarn being spun to sell season tickets and hike ticket prices?! Who knows, but I know where my money goes.
As for Wenger not being mainly if not solely responsible for what goes on at AFC, I think that as TaBS himself has said, there is a problem between IG and AW and I think that probably comes as a direct result of the amount of power AW wields at the club. Not sure how stupid that makes me, but there you go. You also did me the disservice of quoting me totally out of context there. What I was, clearly in my view, here was that anybody that takes the time to present a reasonable point, that point is not treated as stupid, but debated respectfully. It was a positive statement and not a negative one, or at least it was meant to be.
I never said blind “FOLLOWING” and, interestingly, on reading back over the thread, ttg was taken to task over that by you as well when he too said “blind FAITH”. They are actually very different in my view. Maybe we disagree, but I was not trying to make the point that you wish to dismiss so maybe I need to be clearer in my writing here!!!!! Imagine that, TaBS is actively searching for his pistol as I type!
I will finish up with this “it is a game of opinions” – About the most famously correct statement made countless times by people involved in every level of football.
As I said at the beginning, thank you for taking the time to reply in such a full and fair manner. I hope that I have managed to clear up a few bones of contention and that we may continue any debate we choose to have in this very manner.
Have a large one and stick it on Lars tab!
Regarding the Higuain debacle, I would no further trust Ormstein than anybody else here. Homer nails it with his point about who should be negotiating the deal. Surely AW identifies the target, the negotiator (Dick Law one assumes) offers the club and the player their respective parts of the deal and, should that not be deemed suitable by any party, a meeting at Highbury House between manager, negotiator and possibly other board members takes place and a decision is made to see if there is more wiggle room to make another offer.
Maybe things are not quite that simple, but it seems to be what is claimed, more so now with AW’s protest over the existence of a team that is responsible for the transfer of players and not just him.
tabs @273. I was saving that video link for this evening to cheer me up but it’s been ‘removed by the user’.
It must have been extremely embarrassing. 😀
North Bank @ 507:
Ditto and well said…
Trying to make sense of things is why we are all here, isn’t it?! Certainly more so right now than ever before.
Personally, I think the club could help, but whilst they, as is their right, choose not too, opinion and ideas, debate and passion are all we really have.
N7 @ 509:
Brilliant sir. 🙂
Sorry to be so boring TaBS. Sad though that, yet again we fail to find, even in a place solely designed for debating, a place where debating should take place.
Ah sorry about that Bath – you missed a treat 🙂
Pretty sure someone made a gif(?) of it. I’ll see if I can find it.
Give it a rest eh Thierry.
Zero interest. My original post was not even aimed at you. That you thought it was and went completely mental is down to you.
The OX looks like he is out for 6 weeks.
Sad for him all the same but better than first thought. Thank Dennis for that. I for one believe this was destined to the season in which he took a step up.
Some of the catch phrases in this article on Oxlade-Chamberlain’s rehabilitation are a bit worrying:
http://www.clubcall.com/arsenal/wenger—ox-set-to-miss-six-weeks-1620090.html?
“At least six weeks”
“Lengthy”
“Surgery not expected to be necessary”
“Ligament stretched”
Ah, well. The first six minutes of his season were great. 🙁
I have not “gone mental” TaBS, I just do not like the tone you have chosen to take with me or, if not, as you claim, with me, with anybody that has chosen to air an opinion that is different to yours.
Let me clarify one thing though…
I would still dearly love to see them, Arsene Wenger included, fix this and take us forwards as they have claimed that they will. The only difference is in time past I thought that they would but they should maybe do it more quickly whilst now I don’t think that they can.
“I told you so” is EXACTLY what I would love to hear, just backed up with some obvious sporting results.
8 ball,
That is actually a little worrying. AFC physio language does tend to be a little stretchy at times like this.
Let’s hope that they have learnt their lesson and are just erring on the side of caution after so many public humiliations due to their evaluations of player’s injuries in the past.
Kind of explains the Cabaye bid though. LJW cannot surely be ready for a 50 game season.
*Back to yawning at the mentalist*
Oh, Tabs…
What a sad state of affairs.
🙁
Wowzer,
While I have been in the garden ‘drinking to forget’ the war of words has continued.
Nobody has been called a word I wouldn’t want my grandkids to see. Everybody has explained their earnestly held view.
Debate has occurred, with a bit of an edge, but no c words or ‘your mum’ involved.
You lot are the mutts.
Well, hello again everyone 🙂 Now gentlemen, none of us are that far apart on our thinking. We all believe there was a plan in place to obtain a good signing. Many of us think they indeed started early in the pursuit of just that. We all agree that so far, zilch has been delivered. So it seems, we just have a disagreement with whom to blame. For me, the buck stops with the owner. But, I can say with upmost certainty, that none of US, is too blame 😉
Tell you what Tabs,
How about a pint of truce with a agree to disagree chaser 🙂
Abbs,
Spot on that. Good point, well made.
‘Holic,
Your mum mate!!!
LOL! Seriously, just kidding.
Delete this one at will. I understand if it is a little badly timed!
Thierry, If I could, I’d like to buy you and Tabs a drink. xx
You are most welcome Thierry Wrightkamp. Civility above all. In the good spirit of our discussion i would like to add that :
A) Please forgive me if i made it look i was comparing your job to a football manager’s. I wasnt. I was just trying to explain the concept of having Joe from across the street getting privy and critical of your professional achievements. An area Joe cant know anything about to a significant level so as his comments or critique to be relative. I also follow Formula 1 but i would be a nutter if i thought of myself capable enough of passing advice or even judgement on Ross Braun, or telling him he is taking petronas – mercedes backwards. Likewise i could not walk up to a bridge architect and lecture him about engineering. Its a matter of morals and education/upbringing more than anything.
B) I think governments and football cant be compared. Football clubs are privately owned companies. That teh football industry will be used for political reasons is another matter entirely. That has more to do with the massive appeal the game has and how it can manipulate masses. In a football club its the owner(s) who ultimately has the final say. Picture yourself, youve made it big, billions and you buy your bloved football club. Would you let the people in the stands tell you how to run your club? I dont think so. You would pretend to listen to them surely, but ultimately youd do what you want and noone can say a word unless he tables an offer you cant refuse.
C) Continuing from your same paragraph…this is where a strong leadership and ownership is required. To ignore the screams and opinions of the Joes and concentrate on backing the employees who have genuinely contributed to the growth of the company. When i know the abilities of my employees i wont let rumours or complaints influence my decisions. And if you are trying to make the manager’s position untenable then you are in for a surprise because not all of us think the same way. I happen to consider the Manager excellent and the fans a bit fickle. That they are complaining mainly because of frustration and not because Wenger is a bad manager. It is their emotions that have got the better of them. In the absense of a clear target to vent these frustrations they take it out on the one who shows up every week. Standard fan behaviour. Happens in every country. Doesnt make it right though.
D) The expectations of the fans. Well we are not sheep to fall for the medias traps calling us a selling club or mocking us for not winnning anything for 8 years. We know that every club sells and we know that 8 years without trophy is not that big a deal when you check our historical trophy count. Moreso when the club opted for a period of austerity after investing heavily on its infrastructure. These things should have signaled to the fan that expectations should be lowered.
E) Results driven business. I agree but it is also relative to what you invest/spend. When you invest annually 15 million in the squad and you get to champions league which pays you 30m then that is massive success, considering others spend 45m and 60m and still dont get to the champions league.
F) I believe that in my previous responce i mentioned that nobody promised anything and that words about “we were promised” are lies.
G) In 2002 and in general during that era ( 99-2004) the EPL was like the La Liga. Two teams going for the title and the rest trying to feed of the remnants. Our club had stuck one up the traditional football dynasty of the country. With ease. Made them look outdated. And it was the failure of the players the following season to do the back to back with inexcusable draws/defeats in the last 3-4 games of the season.
H) I believe in your marketing abilities, but Arsenal hasnt done too bad. Millions of fans around the world switch on their tellies or computers to watch us. This wasnt the case previously. If you travel abroad now you will see far more people wearing the Arsenal shirt than you would have found in the 80s or 90s.
I) All i said is that Wenger is not solely responsible for what the company spends. He does not have the final say on what Arsenal gets to spend or not. That figure is decided by the top of the hierarchy. Its the same in every football club and in every privately owned company.
J) Not all ideas are clever ideas. Is that more acceptable than calling some ideas stupid?. Maybe so.
K) You tend to follow what you believe in. For religious people faith is something divine and supernatural. For the rest of us belief and faith comes from knowledge. I know Wenger is a good manager, and i know he wants whats best for us therefore i will believe in him and show faith. I am not doing it blindly. I have seen around what other have to offer, i have seen others methods and i dont like them or agree with them. It just so happens that Wenger’s football is in full agreement with my principles on the game. I agree 100% that football clubs must have academies and i agree 100% that money dont fix problems. I agree 100% on keeping the ball on the ground and passing it like crazy and creating automations, one twos and passing the ball to the net. Call me a purist, but i dont like it when grown men approach the GAME of football like its some battle. Lampard and Ryan are 35 and 41 years old ffs and run around in shorts kicking a football. Its a game for youth. To run, to score goals and have fun. Scope and terror tackles and aggression is not what i associate with a game of flair technique and speed.
L) Sometimes too many opinions can be a bad thing. At some point you will have to block out all the Joes and their voices and do your thing. Your decissions are based on stats and mathematics and other scientific projections. Opinions are based on…….emotion and half knowledge. Of course we can all have one. Noone forbids that. But then again the Americans have a saying : Opinions are like arseholes, weve all got one.
Thank you for your time and apologies for the long replies and i look forward to discussing again. After all the moto in the top of the homepage…eat drink sleep breathe arsenal is what we are all about. And a thank you to the owner of the blog for his hospitality.
LPAG – sorry.
I’m with tabs on this.
Whatever has gone on we have the mother of all battles tomorrow and despite the very serious concerns we have tomorrow I , and I wage virtually everyone in this bar will be as pumped as we can supporting the lads. Not for us the stupid’ hope we bloody lose ‘ mentality of other blogs.
We are and will remain a great and special club and tomorrow I am committed to shouting my bollocks off for the side. Inquests can come later.
And who knows UEFA might ban Fener anyway !
Finally my thoughts are for the safe passage of the Gooners out there. It ain’t always a nice place to be .
COYG!!!
Well said, Ttg!
Cannonball, good posts all day, keep ’em coming!
Just hoping they don’t burn the place down tomorrow. Or up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWGAKCYfEc0
Cannonball,
You make some really good points there and, whether others here may believe it or not, you have given me some things to think about as well as changing my mind on a coouple of issues too! I always thought that the point of debate and I am thrilled that you have shown that you do too.
You are, of course, right when you say that Wenger is not a bad manager and, like you say, I too believe that he wants the best for AFC. Forgive me in so far as I worry that what he believes is best for AFC is not what I believe and maybe that is the biggest issue. Yet again we come back to it being a game of opinions! Sigh! I am not saying I am right and he is wrong, neither am I saying that he is right and I am wrong. Ultimately, I am just not sure what the clubs goals are right now, nor do I necessarily agree with their perceived methods of trying to achieve whatever those goals may actually be. Yukky stuff to be sure.
Anybody who claims to support Arsenal and wishes for a defeat tomorrow or any other day is actually an idiot. Not an opinion, that IS a fact. There can be no line drawn between the words fan and loyalty, whatever your beliefs, that would enable you to basically support another team. You are either a fan of the club or you are not. We agree, obviously, wholeheartedly there!
I am still not sure that there were not promises made. Whether we heard the words “I/we promise” or whether we were simply told exactly what we wanted to hear, true or not, so that we would keep chuffing our money into the AFC bank account, the issue for me remains the same. They appear to say one thing and do another. Maybe they don’t and I just hear what I want to hear. Time, and by time I think we can all agree that the next 2 weeks or so of the window is indeed a critical time, will undoubtedly tell.
Let’s get through tomorrow and get back with all bodies in one piece. Then the “who shall we buy with our Brewster’s Millions” conversation can take a whole new leap!
Go to go to work so have to leave it there. Have a great day all and see you later/tomorrow.
I promise to check in and even comment should the result go as we hope in not for anything other than to show a few that I am not only in this for the bitching!
Love you all 🙂
D’Urso!
So Ox reckons he is out for three months. Time to buy that over priced very average winger… Gutierrez? Some random dude from Ligue 1?
TW@341: taken in the spirit intended. A glass on the bar, for you.
Has he gone ……… ? 😉
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Trev again 😉