Arsene’s Midfield Conundrum
Sep 28th, 2014 by 'holic
Twenty six hours after the event I have finally seen the entire match. The strain on the wifi in the place where I found myself on Saturday meant I saw only the first-half, and that on mute. A second viewing of that first period on Arsenal Player confirmed the impression I had at the time. The midfield that so impressed for much of last season is still taking shape, and we have not hit the ground running. Despite dominating ownership of the football too often our advances were side to side and lacking the urgency that we exhibit when on song.
It would appear reasonable to wonder if continued efforts to shoehorn Aaron Ramsey, Jack Wilshere, and Mesut Ozil into the starting eleven are at the heart of the problem. All do their best work in behind the main striker, and it was evident that Ozil was more influential after Ramsey’s unfortunate removal with a hamstring problem. We will perhaps find out in the coming week, or weeks, depending on the diagnosis of the extent of that injury.
The loss of Mikel Arteta too limits our options for the meetings with Galatasaray and Chelsea in the coming days. There is an obvious replacement in Mathieu Flamini, but the old warhorse looked to tire badly against Manchester City in his last start, and was caught in possession for Spurs unlikely opener in this match. Two big games in four days will test his fitness. Arsene said afterwards that Abou Diaby is not yet ready to return and if Jack has a reaction to his ankle knock yesterday, and is also ruled out, then our options are limited.
Indeed it could be that we will be down to almost the bare bones for Wednesday’s Champions League encounter, with Mesut and Santi Cazorla ahead of Flamini, and Alexis Sanchez and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain on the flanks. Pray none of that quintet picks up a knock that rules them out of the important trip to the bus stop in Fulham also.
The improvement in our creative play in the second-half was apparent before Spurs were gifted the lead, and the reaction to that shock was commendable, if ultimately insufficient. The Ox looked rightly thrilled with his equaliser after a magnificent dummy by Danny Welbeck (cough). It looked for all the world as if the axis of Ozil, Cazorla, Alexis, and Gibbs could open up Spurs right flank at will, and with Calum Chambers and the Ox threatening down the opposit flank it did look as though the winner would be found. My heart says we deserved it, my head tells me to be more questioning.
The other significant contributor to the match was Michael Oliver. I know I am harsh in my assessment of our Premier League officials. Because of the general lack of quality we currently have this young man has been fast-tracked, and his appointment to this fixture merely reinforces that view. It was too big a game for him, although to be fair he showed no partiality and had some very difficult calls to make. We will argue that Jack should have had a penalty in the first-half but it happened quickly, and only multiple views of the relays confirmed Rose’s challenge was unfair.
Even harder the decision to deny Per Mertesacker an equaliser. The goal line technology showed the ball in play when Lloris saved, which was not in doubt, but the ball did thereafter go backwards and close at least to over the line. Neither of those non-decisions should result in him being marked down, but his inconsistency in what constituted a yellow card meant that players were free to commit multiple offences, and none more so than Lamela. Oliver cottoned on to this too late, and decided to award yellows for almost any foul in the second-half by anybody not previously booked.
Laughably, Chadli was booked for taunting the schoolboys, girls, and pensioners in the Family enclosure. Since when has being nothing more than a classless prick warranted the award of a yellow card? Frankly, Oliver appeared to lose control, but for clarity, I again emphasise this was not an excuse for dropped points by the hosts. I just hope he is not considered an option to officiate next Sunday, and that is far more important.
Criticism of a side thus far unbeaten in the Premier League might be seen as harsh, but trailing Chelsea by six points after just six matches is a legitimate concern. Next Sunday’s match is too early to be considered pivotal, but more important is that we start to rediscover the consistency of performance in the calendar year of 2013. We have, thankfully, strengthened the squad if not entirely to everyones satisfaction. We are bedding in some new talent and that is taking a little longer than we might have hoped.
That said we are still not far from fielding a front three of Theo, Welbeck, and Alexis. I am rather looking forward to that. If only they could start in the coming week. Pray for a clean bill of health after Wednesday night.
241 Responses to “Arsene’s Midfield Conundrum”
First?
Pipped me to the post GSD!
Top 4?
A great read as always. Cheers!
Cheers Maestro.
Absolutely spot on. Every word.
Some suggestion in the last drinks about Chambers and/or Coq in midfield. I would like to see Chambers develop gradually in that role rather than be thrust into it too soon. Putting him there seems like a red card waiting to happen until he has a little more experience at this level and I would not like to see his confidence unnecessarily knocked given what a great start he has had to his Arsenal career.
Coq has more experience and has beefed up a lot since he last played this role for us. He seems a little like the forgotten man in our DM debate/struggle. I might be tempted to play him their against Gala and see how he does. He can’t be notably worse than Flamini, who fights like hell but looks like his quality and impact are in serious decline at the moment. He could prove a lot better and certainly has something to prove having never quite forced his way into AW’s long-term plans.
He best make his mark soon though because Abou is on the comeback trail. I’m a dreamer too…
Well Gregoire, I can do a lot in two minutes… or so my ex used to tell me. wink
Another dose of our esteemed landlord’s much needed measured opinion. It was a game which was there for the taking but that spark to complete the job was somehow missing. That makes it doubly disappointing as the LWC went back down the Seven Sisters Road with their tails up rather than hanging between their legs.
2 big games now to look forward to but we already down to the bare bones with the season little over a month old – a case of bad luck (with the injuries) and bad planning with squad nos. As always no option but to run with who we have available and cheer on regardless – we are The Arsenal!
‘Ex’ being the operative word there GSD!
Incidentally, I’ve been quite sceptical about the knee-jerk consensus from some ppl on the bar to very blithely pressing the claim for any DM alternative to the Arteta/Flamini axis – and for Galatasaray, I think we can get by on Flamini with Ox, Ozil, Santi, Alexis and Welbeck as the 5 ahead of him.
However, for Chelsea, as ‘Holic correctly says – I don’t think Flamini’s up for nigh on 3 games in a week, and I fancy they would exploit that. But hearing Wenger’s comments on Chambers after the Spurs game, and having seen him a bit more now this season, I’d be tempted to throw Mourinho a bit of a “curve ball” on Sunday, and get Bellerin at RB to counter the quick feet of Hazard, and maybe play Chambers at DCM. He’s certainly athletic, strong and confident enough (Matic and Barry are two players of a similar ilk as defenders with a good degree of composure and passing skill easily transplantable into midfield). It’s early enough in the season to take a relative gamble – most of our own fans, let alone all the ‘neutral’ pundits and commentators think we’ll lose anyway, and we do have a winnable run of games coming up post-Chelsea – so let’s make a feature of what the injuries have dealt us, and present something a little more fresh and inventive to Chelski.
If we played Coq against Gala then Flam could be more rested for Chelsea. Might help. Certainly three games in a week is pushing him.
I would also be concerned about knee-jerk reactions but Coq’s best and preferred position is DM so it would make sense to give him a go there.
If I were the Portuguese translator and we lined up with Chambers at DM I would instruct my whole midfield to drive straight at him. One rash moment puts him on a yellow and after that he has to be so, so careful. I have tremendous faith in the kid but against players of the calibre that the chavs unfortunately have it is a massive ask to play in such a pivotal role with so little experience.
And if it does not come off then the same people who want to swap Flamini and Arteta out of the team will criticise AW for his naivety in playing Chambers there. I’m glad I can just burble away on here without actually having to make any of these calls. Not an easy week for the boss. No, sirree, Bob.
Now where did I recently read something about a midfield conundrum?
Mischievously suggests a Coq/Flam partnership in a 4-2-3-1 may be interesting at the bus stop in Fulham 😉
Have stated this elsewhere, and will repeat it here: I’m finding talk of “still undefeated” to be tiresome. If it’s four wins and two draws, that’s one thing. Four draws and two wins? Well…. There’s a reason a draw is closer in value to a loss than to a win — not good enough in the long run. Would rather have four wins (add the Spuds and City matches) and two defeats — 12 points are better than 10.
Take these nine new competition matches to date (six EPL, three CL):
Record: 3W, 5D, 1L. Not good enough.
Goal differential in nine matches: +3. Not good enough.
Re the midfield conundrum: would opt for the Coq vs. Gala, with the option of starting Chambers there, to get him used to the position. Would absolutely not have Chambers in there vs. Chelskov; would go for Coq or Diaby to sit there with Flamini against the Soviet Oilers.
Okay Holic.
Schezza
Chambers, Kos, Per, Gibbs
Flamini, Coq
Ox, Ozil, Sanchez,
Welbeck
A few people have been suggesting we need to play for a draw (or at least keep it super-tight). Not conceding, especially early on, is key here- template Dortmund away last year.
So Coq to hold his central position with Flamini doubling up/ providing cover to the fullbacks which he IS very effective at, without leaving a hole in the middle. It does put pressure on the front four to be creative/keep the ball against a strong Chav press but again if the fullbacks know that Flamini can provide extra cover then they can join the attack when we are pushing forwards.
Not the worst plan. Later in the game we could get rid of one of them, move Ox central and bring on Santi. Could be a worth a punt.
This was your money phrase, ‘Holic:
“The midfield that so impressed for much of next season…” (Edit, oops, thanks Ned)
I wouldn’t state Chambers as DM against Chelsea, for much the reasons GSD outlines. He is drawing the yellow cards of inexperience, and the Special One would be on that like white on rice.
I think all of us who have mentioned being unbeaten so far have our tongues firmly in our cheeks, Bayonne, and unlikely to be saying it again after Sunday.
Apropos which there’s an awful lot here about the chavs game and practically nothing about the galahs on Wednesday, and that match is surely of greater importance right now? Lose it and we may well find ourselves in the Europey comp – at best.
Öskar
Agree with your team, GSD, assuming you mean for Wednesday, but would play Danny on the wing and Alexi up front.
I’d rest Jack even if he was fit to play, but hope he’s back for Sunday. Too early to even think about that though with Wednesday the first priority and no idea who’ll be fit enough afterwards to play the weekend. I’ll wait for ‘holic’s esteemed preview before adding my twopenn’orth to that.
Agree with those who say Chambers should be tried as a DM, but the chavs are the very last team I’d want him to debut there against, he’d be taken apart. Not that I think he’ll ever play DM. For years I hoped Tommy V, a stronger tackler, would be tried there, but AW ignored me. The guy does that sometimes. 🙁
Öskar
Cheers maestro. Always the voice of reason. And i gotta say – im getting mighty tired of you being right all the time.
GSD – top work.
Bring on le Coq!
It seems we nearly have a decent consensus on here about the squad in general as below.
1) mikel/flam: valiant arsenal warriors as they both are, but could struggle week in week out if the set up leaves them as the lone DM. however their experience could be very valuable if partnered with younger, stronger and more mobile partner in a 4-2-3-1
2) arsenal sadly has come out and said Abou is not ready. That is very disappointing but seems to simply be a fact and not likely to change soon, so onto point 3, who else.
3) coq and chambers seem very suitable and likely additions alongside AW’s current preference to use experience in the DM role. These 3 could work on rotating matches until we have some additional cover. plenty of rest for all 3 and plenty of match time for all 3. why not ?
4) bellerin looks and smells ready, so why not throw him in the deep end. do we really have many alternatives. I think not at this point given our injuries. It does seem to be awfully cautious to leave chambers out on the right back role while we have a severe weakness in the DM area, especially when young bellerin is clearly a class candidate for the RB role.
5) if we do settle on the 4-2-3-1 that seems to make so much sense at this point as it has multiple benefits for AW in the coming weeks. It allows AW some breathing space and options for the middle/forward three. Obviously Ozil11 is first cab off the rank for the centre, thus only leaving 2 wide spots for consideration. Surely santi on the left with his preferred left foot and decent combination with ozil in the middle seems natural and the OX was one of the shining lights from the last match. Only leaving a small decision between danny or alexis up front. both equally suitable and a nice decision to have as an option.
6) this then brings us to the bench. we still have Campbell who is underplayed, we still have poldi who is underplayed. both suitable in any of the wide forward roles or the front role. we still have TR7 who is always a suitable Champions league player away. the rest is sadly looking rather thin, but that is our squad.
last but not least, one could easily make a spot for Alexis on the left or right and santi have a rest and rotate with Ozil in the centre as Ozil surely cant go on for too much longer without some rest.
Our injuries are truly unbelievable at this early point in the season, but it does unfortunately highlight the challenges or potential weaknesses with having numerous younger players that AW doesn’t truly seem to think are ready.
I guess he is just about to find out if a number of them are ready and I sincerely hope they are and am excited to find out. Gideon Zelalem maybe needed earlier then AW wanted.
I feel it’s time for Wenger to start pairing Coq/chambers to either Arteta/Flamini . We can’t have two older guys as our DM’s. And like someone suggested, bellerin might as well start playing RB. What do we have to lose. Just my two cents, it’s up to Wenger,thats why he gets paid the big bucks.
Insisting on having Özil as your No 10, Aussie, ignores the fact that AW has been planning his future Arsenal team around Wilshere since the kid was 16, and as long as Jack’s fit I expect AW to disappoint you.
Öskar
A front line of Walcott, Alexis and Welbeck sounds good, but I get the feeling Chambo’s about to get an extended run and I think he’s going to take his chance, I’m a big fan, he’s had a lot of injuries but give him 7-10 games to get his rhythm going and I think he might become one of the first names of the team sheet.
Oskar – you are right that AW does seem to have a bit of man love for Jack.
Anyways we can all have dreams and wishes and that’s all that mine may be for mesut in this instance.
Rich- agree that ox was one who stood out on Saturday.
He was skilful, showed his turn of speed and created trouble every time he had the ball. We just need need Danny to start getting on the end of more and the Ox to stay fit for more than a few games.
Aussie: not many could have pulled off that combined dummy and flick on that Welbeck pulled off to set up the Ox for his goal on Saturday…
Question: what is the best way to train a young DM? Is it to have him start by playing CB so he can get used to seeing the play in front of him, at RB/LB so he gets used to playing in tight spaces (as AW likes to do with central midfielders, starting them on the wing) or do you just chuck him in the deep end and let him get his experience in the position the hard way?
NBN – agree that was a very tidy piece of work from young Danny.
The question re the best way to train a young DM largely depends on the young players technical and physical suitability for the role in the first instance combined with his ability to cope with such a change if this was not his previous position.
Speaking specifically about young chambers I note with interest AW’s glowing comments today about his engine and his ability.
The fact we potentially need to blood a young DM such as chambers and have limited other suitable options is also not his making or his fault.
Good luck to the young man whatever AW chooses to do with him.
I guess it also depends if you think he is better than those already playing in that role.
Interesting that AW suggests he only has four defenders for Wednesday match.
Obviously AW must not rate or include young bellerin as a serious substitution for the RB role ?
Meanwhile..somewhere in Manchester, LVG ponders what to do with his crumbling defence :http://i.imgur.com/oEjkydO.gif , am told a variation of this occurs at the half time talk too!
😀
@24
Aussie, just 4 defenders? When did that happened?
I see people here suggesting that we should not be playing Chambers in DM because of the potential collecting yellow card(s) because of his inexperience, but suggest that we should be OK in playing experienced Flamini there….Is it the same never-yellow(red)-carded-in-his-career Flamini, or his more undisciplined twin brother maybe?
That is what DM’s usually does, their jpb is not stop the opponents attacks, so they collect yellows, but it doesn’t seem to stop Maureen playing Ramires, or Pellegrini playing Fernandinho.
Chambers has that DM position in his blood, he has every aspect of a modern DM specialist in his game play and he will make that position at Arsenal his own, sooner or later.
Lurky- please note for the record that the ” only 4 defenders left ” comment was not my words but what AW stated during his current interview on Chambers available today on arsenal.com
Does this mean that one of the currently ” not injured” backs has an injury not yet reported ?
Hope not and also nice work @ 26
Aussie, I’ve read the interview previously, don’t worry and I know who’s words are those. But I still wonder when did that happened.
Was is before or after we were aware that there is no defender available in the transfer market, or it was before or after we sold Vermaelen and Miquel, who are, guess what-defenders.
BTW, I highly doubt that anyone is injured, but I think that he forgot to count Bellerin as an option, IMO.
To all those people suggesting you can’t play Chambers at CM against Chelsea only b/c he’d be a liability with his tackling and propensity for yellow cards. Well, he’s already picked up 4 bookings at RB, and with his centre-half’s tendency to go to ground and dive in a tad, I’d rather have him in CM, than having the quick legs of Hazard running at him – inviting those tackles….However, as Oskar correctly says (I agree with you for once!), let’s get Galatasaray out of the way first – a big, big game – and see where we are in terms of numbers and morale/momentum/form after that.
Paddy Vieira collected red cards like a dog collects fleas, but he was still the best DM I’ve seen at Arsenal, and the best stopper period since Peter Simpson.
As for BabyCham I’m sure his future is at CD where he has the stamp of Tony Adams about him. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see him mature into the captaincy. I expect it to come down to either he or Jack in time.
Öskar
Why thank you, Gregoire! a large Delamain Vesper on the bar pour vous.
I fear those here who think the chavs game is the big one must have written off our CL chances already. Very disappointing. I’m still hoping for the Triple! 😀
Öskar
Morning all, viewed from the other end of Seven Sisters Rd, I’m delighted we managed to take a point. Despite Arsenals overwhelming dominance after the equalizer, I never felt you would score. Although, for once, we showed some bottle to hang on, you seemed to run into dead ends every time you got into the final third. Anyway, for the sake of the league, I hope you take something from Chelsea (a point will do!)
Lurky – can’t believe he could actually forget to count bellerin ?
How Could he ?
Oskar – very good point about paddy and cards.
However, as suggested by Holic, young chambers was very unlucky to pick up a card in this match given what some of the torts players did not get picked up for in the first half and mr Oliver only starting booking the totts once he realised how unbalanced the ledger was becoming.
Dave – all fair and reasonable comments. Thanks for the good luck v chelski. We may need every bit of it given our physio.com latest update.
Seems we have as many out as we do in !
Fine review, Guvna. Very measured.
Sadly due to accumulated injuries the choppy waters ahead are looking increasingly perilous.
I maybe wrong but is there a sense of acceptance already in the house?. Acceptance of us being what we look like currently- good not great. Nice but not strong enough, skilled but not creative enough to break rigid defenses??. The answer at the moment lies in the fact that Arsenal and its fans seem to be in acceptance that we are not good enough.
Whose undoing is it?. Wenger? partly yes for he had the chance to make this team stronger and he choose to believe that we already are, apparently so far he is wrong.
The players?, again some of them need to hold their hand up and agree. Per looks so slow that it is beyond measure. I know he was never quick but he seem to have slowed down even more. Woj continues to be frivolous, good and stupid in equal measure. Flamini i have made my feelings clear and i repeat he should not play for us again, definitely not in the defensive midfielder role.
My biggest disappointment is acceptance, we have started to accept we are not good enough and this early is truly sad. Again i am not saying this individually but the general consensus seems to be mere acceptance than remedy.
No one truly believes we will beat chelsea next sunday. Honestly a lot will be hoping its not embarrassing again. Man to man are we not good enough? Is there such a gulf between the two teams and if so why?. It just cannot be money, our midfield is definitely better than theirs right or atleast level pegging. So why is it that we dont even stand a chance at the moment?.
Injuries haunt us all the time but it is no excuse. Teams park bus/plane whatever but then that is a tactic that has been deployed by most teams,so instead of countering it, we complain?. Please.
Arsenal need a shake up, the boss and the players for i just feel everyone is just ok, it is ok if we dont win, we console ourselves saying thankfully we did not lose. I mean is this what we are reduced to?.
No it is not a knee jerk reaction. No i really dont care if we dont win anything this season but i want to see my team compete, teams should feel they are in for a fight when they play us, teams meaning the big ones, most importantly i want our players to fight to death every game. They need to remember they play for The Arsenal and that is a privilege.
Unfortunately AW has confirmed that jack has re-injured the same ankle as previously injured.
The answer to the injury connundrum is simple. Dig up the pitch, dig up the training pitches, and put in something a bit less like concrete that has a bit of give in it.
Well said Vinay, well said.
Sadly, man to man, we dont seem Ethat far behind most in a lot of key positions and especially our midfield.
We have a more than decent squad in a general sense, but we seem to lack a true high level of week in week out consistency in a lot of important areas.
Some of the areas we look far behind many teams is;
– team leadership
– team consistency
– team management and playing strategies
– injury management
– fitnes and strength
– a consustent team rotation policy
– a consistent hunger and desire to win and belt teams
– a consistent and repetitive winning mentality
– confidence in our youngsters to play in big matches. AW has them but he actually doesnt like to play most of them.
– team selection and team balance
It does seem that AW is getting out managed more often than not….
The Southampton and tottenham managers were two very recent managers who were able to pull off good results for their teams and clubs with lesser quality all over the park. One of the key aspects to boh their games was patience and commitment to the planned task.
So jack and Ramsey out for how long? At this rate I might need to go get a voodoo priest from Back home (Africa) to help us out. Because whatever we are doing right now is definitely not working, unfreaking believable. Vinay @35, I don’t know what Mourinho has over Arsene, but I can’t remember us ever beating them when he was in charge. And am one of those folks that believe not losing to them would be a great result. A point against a Chelsea or Mancity team, even though I felt we should have been able to hold on against Mancity, is a good point. Can you imagine what the psychic of the team would be, if they get blown away like last year. Arsene needs to change his approach for the match simple as that. And as for Galatasary, if we can’t beat them, then we deserve to be in the Europa league.
Thanks for those fair words Dave.
Afternoon all. Collective chins up. 🙂
SAG- you are rght about mourinho having the wood over AW and just to add to that, drogba has the wood over arsenal backlines as well as his goal scoring record is freaking unbelievable against us.
Add to that AW believes we only have 4 defenders available for some unkown reason. Either he has fogotten about bellerin or he doesnt rate him or someone else is injured in the backs.
Hopefully none of the above is true or else suggest you go and get that priest mate.
Aussie/SAG: I’ll tell you what Mourinho has over Wenger. The legacy of the infinitesimal pockets of an unwholesome Russian oligarch.
Incidentally @38 is one of the most amusing things I’ve read in a long time. Pls email to Wenger, and we can sit back with our pipe and slippers and watch those titles roll in….
Thanks for an civil and measured post ‘holic.
It was something of a frustrating game of course. But what really annoys me about games like Saturday’s is the continual regurgitation of tired, lazy narrative about us being ‘out played, out managed, blah blah blah’ in the aftermath.
It’s not even statistically true is it? Because if it were we’d be in a entirely different half of the table year in year out wouldn’t we?
After 6 games, we’re 4th. Hardly a cause for mass self-harming is it?
The fact that of this morning’s posts, one of the most obviously clear headed and sane was from a visitor up the other end of the Seven Sisters is actually really quite disappointing.
We are top of the league, say, we are top of the league !
The Premier Injury League that is.
Coincidence, bad luck ? Sorry, I don’t believe it is.
And what snowy said.
Cheers Dave.
Coincidence, bad luck? Not when it happens over and over and over.
I remember maybe one or two seasons in the last six or seven when we were not top of the injury league.
Gregoire, it is easier to stick to the facts, rather than fantasy.
Mourinho has a success rate of 100% wins over wenger as chelsea manager whichever way you prefer to spin it.
Both managers have the same opportunities to buy players in the transfer market and set up their respective teams for the season ahead.
One chose hazard, oskar, fabregas, willian, matic and costa.
One Didnt.
Snowy, congrats on 4th place in 6 mayches and consistently being top half of the table finishes year in year out.
Marvellous stuff.
And on the Spurs goal Flamini actually did all he could after losing the ball. He brings down the man but another Spurs player comes in to pick up the ball and pass it to the goalscorer. Say all you will about not losing the ball in that area of the pitch but where is the cover?
The drinkers in this fine establishment appear all to be students of history. All seem to adhere to the old maxim that “past performance is no guarantee of future results” only when it suits them.
It appears to suit my fellow drinkers to believe that since we have had a poor record with injuries in the recent past, we will continue to have a poor record in the near future. It suits the patrons to believe that Arsène Wenger has been out-thought tactically by some other managers, and it further suits them to believe that he will continue to be so out-thought.
The clientele here appear also to forget that over recent seasons we have put together several extended runs of good form and good results. The vociferous amongst us who have not forgotten this certainly appear not to believe that we will put together an extended good run of form at some point this season.
Whilst you take aim, please note that I am not counselling any form of complacency. I have no doubt whatever that changes can be made to bring forward the start of a good run of form and results. Equally, I would advise the retention of as many toys as possible within the pram so that they may be thrown out should the team actually start losing league matches.
COYG
@48 btb
Exactly!
gregoire @ 42, so explain to me how we were able to beat them under a different coach. They were still spending money like shit, maybe Wenger just need to be more pragmatic in his approach when playing against Mourinho.
snowy @ 43, If I was sane and clear-headed I would have given up on Spurs years ago
Aussie – if AW were ‘outmanaged more often than not’ would it not be a little more likely that we would be finishing somewhere else?
Heh @ Dave 😉
Frankly if any of us were sane we’d go nowhere near football at all. Because the one thing it teaches us from early childhood is that at some point, sometimes brutally and often unfairly, it’s going to utterly break your heart.
Except for the times that it doesn’t.
Last season I was at the Bus Stop and at Klanfield, but also at the Lane and at Wembley. I’ve seen us lose against Birmingham in the League Cup Final, and get turned over 8-2 at Old Toilet. I’ve seen us on completely mesmerising ‘Total Wengerball’ form, shipping hatfuls against Tottenham, Wigan, Newcastle and even against Chel$ki. I’ve seen us sparkle. And I’ve seen us totally implode. I’ve seen us in cup finals where we were played off the park and won, and cup finals where we were immeasurably the better side, only for us to lose in the closing minutes.
Thank fuck football is still a game that’s played on grass, not on paper.
Aussie – this is the last time I’m going to argue with you on this point, b/c it’s a tedious parlour-game trying to reason with someone where no reason abides, however your argument and rhetoric is at times so ignorant and lacking in nuance that it needs to be called out:
– Not to be pedantic, but Mourinho doesn’t have a “100% success rate of wins” over Wenger. I seem to recall two 1-1 draws home and away in the 2006/07 season, and last season we probably should have beaten them 0-0 in a tactical, cagey (yes Wenger can do ‘tactical’ and ‘cagey’) game at the Emirates when Giroud was a coat of paint away from winning it at the end. If you’re going to remember the 6-0 thrashing, and of course it’s imperative we do, you must equally include all games in your frame of reference.
– “Both managers have the same opportunities to buy players in the transfer market”. That’s amazing! So you’re privy to both the footballing and commercial strategies of Chelsea and Arsenal football clubs at the highest level? You know the business matrix of both clubs, the budgets of both managers, the understanding with their respective Managing Directors, and all the intricate associations with relevant agents/managers which helps facilitate deals? In which case, you’ll remember Mourinho relationship with a certain Jorge Mendes and how many players arrive at Chelsea with the minimum of negotiating and fuss?!
– You list a bunch of players Wenger could have bought. But what about these he did in recent seasons: Koscielny, Chambers, Debuchy, Ozil, Sanchez, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Cazorla. Not bad eh? Mourinho didn’t buy them for Chelsea – and he didn’t win squat last season.
– And you mock Snowy for saying we’re currently 4th and unbeaten despite our tough league start, and our continual ‘satisfaction’ with finishing only 3rd/4th in the lge. To be honest, there are lots of clubs in England who’ve invested a lot more than we have and done a lot worse (Man Utd, Liverpool, Spurs to name but a few). And we’ve done all this in era when we were competing against 2 ridiculous clubs that would have been penalised in any other self-respecting sport, all while we had to build and pay for a new stadium, and our transfer dealings until about 2 years ago pretty much had to generate a profit. Our ‘mediocrity’ in continually retaining our Champions Lge status is something to be proud of as an Arsenal fan – not to mock or be spiteful about.
All this doesn’t mean I’m rose-tinted or complacent about where we’re at this season, and that I’m not frustrated about one or two elements of squad composition, the injury situation etc, but these situations play out over a much more complex set of factors than your one-eyed negativity allows, and I reckon Wenger is generally in a better position than any of us to assess how things are going and to act as custodian for our club in footballing matters. I personally will be assessing Arsenal on the following parameters this season: progress in the lge will be 3rd place (eminently likely, and we can finally avoid that CL playoff that really buggers up early season planning), hopefully a run beyond the last 16 in the CL, and a staunch defence of the FA Cup. From what I’ve seen in the first 6 weeks of the season, all these targets are achievable, and our squad is one that will only get better as the months and indeed years roll on. We just need a bit of patience and perspective for now….
Knowing Mourinho, he might go with old ass Drogba against us, and he most likely will score too. That dude also has some hoodoo shit on us. He always scores against us, it’s crazy.
Lurky: my argument about not playing Chambers at DM against the Chavs is specific to that game. I think Maureen would target him from the get-go aiming to draw a yellow early on and a second soon after. Chambers doesn’t yet have the experience in the position to deal with that. Just not the game to start his on-the-job training. If and when he does get blooded in the role, as I suspect he will not be until after AW has given him a lot more Prem experience than he now has and curbs some of his pushing and diving into tackles, I would still expect him to pick up a succession of yellow cards for the very reason that you suggest.
re: only four defenders. Perhaps AW takes Gibbs crocked as a given.
re: Drogba. We really are his bunny. Thirteen goals in 14 matches against us (and only on the losing side once). Compares to 11 in 28 vs Liverpool (only other club he is in double figures against; 9 losing games), 5 in 14 vs Man City (4 losing games), and 3 in 19 against Man Utd (7 losing games).
Snowy @54: ain’t that the truth.
One of the injuries that should have been most avoidable was the one to Giroud. Rather than buying a reliable backup center forward at the start of last season, Wenger played him into the ground. Giroud started in 53 matches for club and country compared to just 39 the year before. If Wenger thought Sanogo was the man to be the reliable backup last season, he subsequently proved himself wrong by not playing him enough to allow Giroud to stay fresh and strong.
http://www.espnfc.com/player/88965/olivier-giroud?season=2013
I hope he doesn’t play Welbeck into the ground before Giroud has a chance to get back and give him a breather.
Trev, apologies for the way I responded to your comment on the sarcasm conversation a while back, I should have taken more time to read and understand your comment better.
With the kind of Chelsea and Real Madrid teams Mourinho ‘managed’ Arsene would have sneezed out a few CL trophies in his sleep. The Portuguese genius won none.
Mourinho’s biggest achievement remains the CL with Porto. It was a good team with some good players, but they were huge underdogs.
He is a bit more suave, multilingual, more paranoid and tactically well educated version of big Sam. And equally unmemorable. Or memorable for the wrong reasons.
Well done, Cent. Drinks for you on the bar.
Be careful Gergoire, or you will be joining that illustrious band of brothers more commonly referred to as “some on here”.
You will recognise us simply by our refusal to wed the bed at every setback, perceived or otherwise.
Or by our beer-guts.
I dont know how this turned out to be Wenger versus Jose discussion here. All i can say is it is legacy versus reality; Wenger’s legacy to the game and to the EPL is unparalleled bar Ferie and even there i think Wenger is greater, reality is Jose is the more successful manager in the recent past.
I agree to Gregoire in terms of expectations for the season and if we achieve that i can safely say, job well done and more importantly that is progress.
We play the best football in the land and the only ones close to us is City who i think resemble the Arsenal of old. Quick and direct. Yet for all the pretty football the end result seems inevitable. If we do not score first the odds of us winning the game is less specially in the big games. Teams have a simple plan to stifle us and we do not have a Plan B. Nope Giroud is not the solution. Injuries are a part of any season and even though we seem to have more than most, i do not think so that is a strong enough reason not to change our approach.
I adore Wenger, the man is the greatest of all time for me but then it does get infuriating when he refuses to see what is plain for all to do.
Statements like Chambers is excellent and can play midfield maybe correct but is that a solution??? no. Why on earth is this plastering the cracks all the time?. Why are we never prepared. Game after game, teams play deep, have two holding mid fielders who stand on our mid fielders and we do not have a counter. Mere Personnel change wont work, i think it is the mentality, i do not see the urgency, i do not see the leader on the pitch we so lack. Where is the rallying of the troops, heads go down the moment a team scores against us. I cry when i see the likes of an Ozil or jack getting isolated looking for support only to see no one close by. The word i am looking for is Energy, i do not see that, i am sorry. I dont give a damn what jose is was and ever will be, he doesnt match up to the shoe laces of wenger but then thats me. In reality he will say i speak trash about you and i get away with it because my team beats you. That hurts.
Am not even excited about our CL match, am eagerly anticipating the chavs (imminent destruction?!), it’s about time we got one over the dour one, when he’s least expecting it and while we’re laden with injuries.
Whatever we do we must not lose our heads ( http://i.imgur.com/th7Vx08.gif ) while they put us under pressure and when we get the chance we must positively smash (http://i.imgur.com/GtFXI8M.gif) them on the counter!
Up The Arse!
😀
By the way Zico speaks for his self and absolutely nobody else I’ll have you know.
Heh, Zico, I don’t have a beer gut, not yet 😉
On the real though, not trying to be funny, but I will like to know why Wenger has never beaten Mourinho? This guy has been beaten by way lesser technicians than Arsene. Is it some kind of psychological issues or what. If there is anybody I will like Wenger to beat, it has to be him.
Gregoire, Pangloss, Snowy, Zico, NBN and any other positive/measured drinkers in here today- THANKYOU.
Cheers Dave- always enjoy your contributions.
Every result that does not go our way leads to such long and righteous posts about us not being good enough. I just like cheering on those boys in red.
I think we can beat Gala. I think we can beat the Chavs.
SAG @ 67: It has primarily got to do with the gap in qualities in their respective teams. And Mourinho has always taken his matches against Arsenal very ‘specially’ — the way he takes matches against Barcelona, the way his Inter had defeated Barca with Eto’o playing as an auxiliary defender gives you some insight about how he might had have ‘motivated’ his team — for whatever reasons and has always been particularly motivated. Maybe it is a secret love of some kind. Or even an unconscious desire for Arsenal. With Barca it is definitely a secret love, he learnt his craft there and probably always wanted to go back. 🙂
We have come close to beating Mourinho’s Chelsea a few times. I wouldn’t read too much into the fact that we didn’t. For instance Arsene never lost away at Villa which is one of the tougher away grounds, it doesn’t mean the Villa players have some sort of psychological issue with playing Arsenal at home. Some patterns are like that, pure surface and no causal depth.
Not quite true Esso – I have Dr Feelgood’s proxy vote. 😎
Gregoire I apologise for my typo above.
Oskar,
Of course you are right that the focus must be Gala. My team was for the chavs in response to ‘holic. I would play the same one against Gala but would rest Flamini for Rosicky as I think we would have less need to be so tight at home against less good opposition.
I disagree with you on Welbeck’s long-term prospects at CF. I think he will be excellent there. But so will/would Alexis.
I tend to agree with you on Jack (both today and in general) but would point out that when Arsene began his plan to build around LJW the arrival of a player like Mesut Ozil was probably far from his mind. Maybe he is having trouble adjusting to having both of them as possible lynchpins?
Today is a day, in particular, when I would like to hear from Steve T.
And call me ‘some on here’, ‘sunnysider’, ‘delusional’ or anything else you like- I also think we can win the league.
Yeah.
When mourinho came in 2004 i am sure his one point agenda was to dispose Arsenal from the top 2 spot, he wanted to ensure it was a fight between chelsea and united and i think he succeeded. It was because of a lot of circumstances which worked towards that happening but i am certain his initial agenda was to replace Arsenal and the only way he could do it was periodic sledging, shit loads of money into powerful players and hurt Arsenal by irritating them. His players were dirty and ruthless whereas we were having our new generation of players coming and more so the golden generation getting over. He times it right it worked and we never have been able to truly overcome his or his teams. In between when the likes of scolari, Ancelotti or RDM/ AVB were there, we still lost and won but when it comes to mou, it was always a psychological battle he prides on winning and so far he has. He cannot fathom as to how can Wenger be so respected and very less criticized in comparison to him. He fails to understand that and it pricks him,sadly he wins on the pitch which is what truly matters.
Doc@ 69, thanks for the explanation. Just like you, I felt there were times when we should have beaten them, but came short. I just hate it when that bus parking dude beats us.
GSD,
I had a long chat with Steve T on Saturday and enjoyed it very much.
Good man.
Gregoire – stirling, or sterling, stuff – depending on where you come from.
zico – heh 😉
Esso – heh, too 😉
Pangloss,
I’ll be back to deal with you later – work calls for another hour !
Some on here have to , unfortunately 🙁
Vinay @ 74, thanks. I really hate that guy. And losing to him really pisses me off.
Zico, I am honoured to be invited into the sensible ‘beer gut’ consensus….Although does my rippling 6-pack preclude me from joining? (rippling away nicely in the fridge might I add, ready to be cracked open on Wed night)…
Incidentally, just to put more flesh on the Wenger-Mourinho anomaly of Wenger never having won a tie against Jose teams. Mourinho managed Chelsea from 2005-07 (when they were at their Abramovich-honeymoon peak – winning 2 titles, Lampard & Terry were in their prime, and they had other world-class talent like Cech, Gallas, Makalele, Robben, Drogba etc etc) the same period as Arsenal were going through our own-post Invincibles decline. Even then, many of the games were close draws….In 2007 Chelsea became shitter, Mourinho got sacked no less, and we started to get wins over his ‘team’ under other guys – Grant, Ancelotti, AVB etc. Last season, when Jose returned, let’s ignore the reserve cup, we got hammered 6-0 away which everyone knows about, but the 0-0 draw at home we should have won – and it had nothing to do with managerial acumen, just the case of Giroud missing the far post by a whisker at the death, and other fine margins on which 90% of Arsenal-Chelsea games are defined.
Finally, if we can avoid an early concession on Sun, I fancy us to give Chelsea a real scare – I don’t see Costa bursting past Mertesacker and Koscielny, while Cahill and Terry won’t like playing against Welbeck at all…
Work, Trev? I love it. I could sit and watch it all day…
Ramsey’s out for a month!
🙁
Best of everything to the huge contingent of Chinese — HongKong and mainland — Gooners! Troubled times ahead.
Kos has an Achilles problem… !
So guess we’ll see Bellerin then.
No chance of moving Chambers up yet… wafer thin now the squad.
Fingers crossed we come out of Gala without picking up any more injuries! Can’t play all the kids against Chelski, that would be disastrous.
BB
Where are you getting this stream of terrible news from?
I’m not listening to you anymore. If I don’t listen none of it is true.
*sticks fingers in ears and fails to hear the news that Sanchez and Ozil have got broken legs after a freak accident in which a ballroom dancing class for the purposes of team-building has gone horribly wrong*
@GSD,
http://www.espnfc.com/arsenal/story/2061056/arsenals-aaron-ramsey-set-for-month-on-sidelines-with-hamstring-injury
..and weep 🙁
Aptly sums up the emotions from the highs of last week till the present : http://i.imgur.com/HPK0H.gif
🙂
Evening all.
Thanks again Dave.
Had an interesting, if brief, discussion today about carrying on blogging, and the form that the drinks are taking. I’ve always asked for respectful debate, and on that one rule I have based my decisions about a handful of people who have refused to conform.
The respect part of that is more important than the fact that we hold different viewpoints. I actually think although this place has got a little feistier than before, that by and large the worst personal excesses have been avoided, so for that thank you all.
Understand that for those who consistently argue points with which you don’t agree that your frustrations will be felt by them also. Human nature, and all that. One or two of you push my buttons, but stay the right side of the respect line. Again, thank you. That is why you are here and mnb isn’t.
On a day though where that discussion I referred to earlier was even necessary it lifts the spirits to see the faithful old faces back in here making absolutely sound points and providing more than a chuckle or two.
We’re evolving, as other blogs do all the time. Hopefully we remain a place that sane and lovely Gooners (and the occasional respectful guest!) will be able to make their points and feel comfortable in.
Thank you, I’m pretty sure some of you know who you are. 😉
Thanks for the drinks, Lonestar!
Love it.
The same folk who tirelessly slagged off Le Boss for failing to win trophies now rallying behind Mourinho. Remind me, lads: how many trophies has Jose won in the last couple of years? Ah yes, fuck all.
I thought managers like that were “a busted flush”, or some other such bollocks? Please let’s not talk about pots won half a decade ago, I seem to recall those didn’t count for much with our own manager.
Up the Arsenal and Mourinho (sacked by two of his previous three employers, let’s not forget) can fuck off, regardless of whether we take a hiding this weekend, which we well may, given injuries and current form.
COYG
I have no clue what you’re on about, Guv’…
I have it on good authority that the sky IS falling and we ARE shite; so it must be true. 😛
And those who disagree with me are deluded old fools…Zico
Vinay: heads go down the moment a team scores against us
That simply isn’t true. From this season alone you have this:
Came back from 1-0 down to win 2-1 v Palace.
Came from 2-0 down to draw at Everton.
Came from 1-0 down v City, went 2-1 up.
Came from 1-0 down v Spurs to draw the game.
Other recentish examples:
Hull in the FA Cup final, both 5-2’s v Tottenham, our last four games v West Ham (being 1-0 down in all of them, winning three 3-1 and one 5-1). I’m not saying we’re perfect, but we definitely don’t crumble every time we go a goal down.
*****
As for Saturday, I am disappointed we didn’t win. We should have beaten them, and I think if we had taken the lead we would have scored a couple more too. But if my auntie had bollocks et cetera, so one point it was. Hopefully we can get the three points we should be getting v Galatasaray on Wednesday and then we can look forward to whatever Sunday may bring. I can’t say I am very optimistic, but wtf – if we could win there a couple of years ago with Djourou at RB and Santos at LB then I guess anything’s possible 🙂
Come on, Lars, don’t allow facts get in the way of a good moan.
SAG @ 75: Mourinho’s most unique and telling ability is to create a siege mentality, an “us-against-the-world” paranoia among players using other clubs as the target and media as the vehicle. For clubs where with the fanbase that tendency works — Chelsea, a small club by all definitions — or Inter (highly successful, but not very well liked in wider Italian football) he gets more out of his team by tactically focusing on each match as a battle no matter what. But for clubs where there exists a more long-term narrative of strong identity it doesn’t work — Real — or he is not wanted (ManU, despite courting them openly and slavishly).
Anyway, I think we will break that record this season. If not this Sunday the next time we meet.
In all fairness, I do understand (and am sympathetic to) the point Vinay was trying to make.
Over the past eight years or so, cynical and not-so-cynical teams have adopted the same blue print for negating us. Get ten men behind the ball, congest the midfield, and watch us pass side-to-side. Then hit us on the break from either a misplaced pass or (more of a recent worry) corner.
Small teams have done it to survive against us. Large teams have done it because they can. This is not even to mention the opposite pressing method which Dortmund and others seem to carry off to useful effect.
But staying with the congestion tactic, the frustrating part is, even after the personnel changes, even after knowing the opposition’s preferred strategy, we do not seem any closer to being able to consistently defeat it.
It’s like Buddy Ryan used to say about the Eagles (‘Hols, especially when they played your Chicago Bears), keep running the ball until they make you stop. Other teams will employ the same strategy until we make them stop. And sometimes, it seems that AW blithely ignores that principle.
Now, I’m pleased as punch with the FA Cup win (although I could get used to winning more things). But I do wish we could get this anti-football susceptibility sorted.
Jorge Valdano –
“Jose Mourinho has never said a single thing about football worth hearing”
Priceless.
Holic @87. Excellent observations. This is a broad church with people with varying opinions and different personal styles.
I disagree with many points made and many others have disagreed with me. That’s life (and football). However I do tire of repetitive tub thumpers with only a few favourite ‘tunes’ who fail either to acknowledge different points of view or develop their position.
However this bar still remains the best site for an intelligent discussion between people. A ‘Party Seven’ of Red Barrel on the bar for all comers. 😉
– people
+ Gooners
🙂
cheers, bath.
*tapping foot and looking at the empty chairs of steve t., cba, and a few others of whom sightings are too damn few and far between*
KAPOW
Ox-esque
snowy at 54: very true.
bt8b at 58, giroud’s injury wasn’t due to being played into the ground. it was due to his blocking a hard-kicked ball and having his foot snapped nearly off (a bit of an exaggeration). he could have been fresh as the proverbial daisy, it still would have happened, and he still would be out for the new year.
gsd at 73, welcome to the sunnysider lounge, a corner of the holicbar where the sun shines every day, one way or another. there’s a bottle of dom perignon open on the table, glasses at the bar. help yourself.
n7 at 89, i believe mourinho is portuguese for “cunt”. actually, that might just in any language. no clue why some on here consider him a “special one”. as has been said repeatedly, give arsene his financial constraints and he’d be so far behind in the frenchman’s rear view mirror that he’d look about as big as is his soul.
lars at 92, the only recent time i can think of where our heads dropped after an opponent scored was at dortmund, and that only because it was halftime and they were trudging to the tunnel. i never saw the second half of that game, did they stay down?
Scruz,
Since when can “Sunnysiders” afford Dom P? UEFA kickbacks?
scruz: the Dortmund game is one I have blocked from memory 🙂
What is going on with all these injuries? 6 weeks in and we are already in bare bone situations. Even the MF that was packed weeks ago, is now getting worryingly low. How in the hell is costa still playing with a hamstring injury all these while. God help us.
Broken record me. It was totally irresponsible and completely daft to go into the season with the sparse resources we had in key areas of the team. We have a good defence ( I wouldn’t swap Koscielny for anybody in the league save Kompany and I love BFG.) but not enough defenders of requisite quality to last a season given the predisposition to injury of Gibbs and the Achilles injury which Kos had sustained before the window closed. We don’t have any good DMs except Diaby and well really can we rely on the poor fella? I like Coquelin and he might do us. He is certainly more mobile than the Flamster who I think is someone for shoring up in the last twenty minutes. One big problem is that we have conceded the first goal in four of our six games including every home game. I suggest our tempo at home is too relaxed in the early period. Tempo was non- existent on Saturday until the second half began otherwise we seem to need to fall behind to start playing.
Dave has been as fair as ever. I thought Tottenham defended well , especially Kaboul and Rose but I was certain we would at least equalise and had we been able to take corners or if they defended them like we do we would have.
I love GSD’s optimism about our league chances. Unfortunately and to my huge despair I don’t think this squad has any chance of winning the league . I shall still support this team to the echo even if we finish in 20th place , I shall never boo our players and I shall always respect what our club stands for. For that reason Mourinho despite the fact that he has a reputation as a genius will never be appropriate to manage Arsenal. He is a fine tactician with an almost non- existent moral compass. I wouldn’t want us to win the league if we have to put Mourinho in charge to do it.
That’s covered off a lot of stuff. Forsythe must go. Come back Gary Lewin!
Scruz, Steve T and cba are indeed a great loss to the bar.
afford, lonestar? by the grace of the swedish wallet…
lars (speaking of which), if you’ve got to block one, that’s a good one. hopefully there won’t be another for a while.
bath, indeed.
YES – bring back the golden era of Lewin, when we only had a third of the squad on the treatment table, instead of around a half. Happy days 😉
The injuries fucking suck. Drawing or losing games we should have won sucks too. Many things over the course of a season piss me off royally. As do many things which do or don’t happen during transfer windows, various.
But I do genuinely believe that treating every setback as an opportunity to lose your shit over everything that has not happened exactly as it was wished for, is just a licence to go round the bend.
Clearly having everyone agreeing all the time is entirely as tedious as endlessly reincarnated arguments. But it isn’t unreasonable to hope that we can disagree on things without making it a completely joyless exercise.
The exception to the polite and/or amusing disagreement thing of course is Mourinho. There is not excuse for either liking, respecting or envying that shameless, preening, amoral, self-publicising wankspanner. The sooner he finds himself spirited away to a hell-dimension or into the path of an inbound meteorite the better. Preferably sometime before this weekend, or shortly thereafter, I’m not especially fussed. 😉
Pangloss,
I’m not entirely sure how many of the groups you nominated I belong to – the “apparent students of history”, the “fellow drinkers” or, woe, woe and thrice woe, merely the “some on here”.
Whichever it is, or they are, let’s deal with the following quote from your @49 –
“It appears to suit my fellow drinkers to believe that since we have had a poor record with injuries in the recent past, we will continue to have a poor record in the near future.”
It doesn’t “suit me” to believe any such thing at all. I’m fed up to the teeth with seeing us sitting atop the Premier League Injury Table and watching another season’s tilt at the title go down the drain as a result.
Not that I have actually said I believe that situation will repeat itsself, but since you accuse, I do. Unless something very different happens.
I expect it to repeat itsself because it has, season after season for the last six or seven years. Even last season, which appeared to be a better one because our centre backs “got away with it”, there we were from the new year onwards with Walcott, Wilshere, Ramsey, Gibbs, Ozil and an occasional smattering of others at the top of the injury table.
I think it was North Bank Ned and myself who wrote up some figures showing that Newcastle were the only team to come anywhere near the number of ‘days injured’ we had racked up over the previous seven seasons.
I even wrote a lengthy guest post explaining what I believe to have been the reasons for our injury problems. When someone tried to discuss the article on the Fans Forum, he was immediately cut off. Interesting.
So, it doesn’t “suit me” to believe our injury crisis will happen again this season just because it happened last season and the season before that and the seaon ….. etc. etc.
I choose to believe it will happen because it already has.
Blimey snowy, you do go on !
But I like you 😉
Hahahaha @ Trev 😀
Snowy@108: Have to agree with you. But in a joyful way.
scruz@101: It all depends on whither the sun shines…
aaargh…whence the sun shines…
*sips Dom and beams good-naturedly around at the other sunnysiders*
Scruz. Your point about Giroud’s injury is fair, as far as it goes, but Wenger’s playing certain players into the ground is a criticism that still stands, and Giroud stands as an excellent example of that. As a matter of fact, wasn’t he injured in the last minute of injury time when a fresher pair of legs might have pulled out the game for us?
Re: ‘holic @87. Evolving? Maybe the rest of you. 😉
I agree with Snowy about the general nature of the translator (amazing he worked with Bobby Robson and still knows sweet FA about what it is to have even a sliver of class) but I don’t really care about his misfortune, per say. He is just not worth it.
What I would like to see is Wenger get the better of him. When it really matters. There won’t be time for Wenger to erase the gap in their results against each other but if he could point to a victory (or a few victories) and say ‘look what happened when we played the big games’ then I could live easier with that.
Mourinho has had his best teams play Wenger’s worst. I would love to see us beat him in CL Final (or FA cup final or league decider) and have Wenger behave afterwards with the class and dignity that have for so long been the defining difference between those two men.
I didn’t start this meaning to come over all Kevin Keegan but, damn it, I’ve started so I’ll finish-
“I’ll bloody love it…”
Trev/NBN: One relevant statistical data might be how many of our non-contact injuries — Arteta, Rambo on Saturday, Theo in last year’s FA Cup, Gibbo hobbling off holding his hamstring numerous times — happen in Emirates vis-a-vis away grounds. And what, if any, are the drills and practices performed a day or so before.
Just intuitively speaking (and apologies for the layman’s terminologies) a surface can indeed be too sleek for the musculoskeletal structure of footballers, and maybe a repeated series of movements on similar surface for a few days and then peaking with those same movements but at a very high speed can lead to pre-existing but latent problems being exacerbated?
Trev @ 109. Great post which I wish I didn’t agree with! The problem is more the denial of perennial problems than the lack of optimism in expecting things to be the same.
As a grizzly old veteran I find I demand huge things when I am within the Arsenal fold but defend us savagely outside it. This board is a group of committed Arsenal nutters with different views on some issues but a shared love for the club. But sometimes we have to call it as it is. With your specialist knowledge of physiology it must be particularly frustrating to see shit keep happening to us.
I wish the inevitability of our injuries wasn’t so but it just bleeding is as you say! My jest at Shad Forsythe was just that but it is so depressing. Spurs had ONE injury to the squad before Saturday’s game. As far as I could see we subbed off three players who were injured and their three subs were tactical. It was a London Derby but the same for both teams yet we were the ones who came off worst. So far we’ve lost Gibbs, Arteta, Monreal, Giroud, Ramsey and Debuchy to significant injuries. I tend to mentally factor in a significant injury in each game and it’s about right so that’s why we are the last team in this League to leave ourselves short of cover in key positions.
i guess, bt8b. if you want to pin giroud’s injury on wenger’s substitution policies, or lack of backup strikers, please, feel free.
i won’t.
yes, he ran down second half of last year, and i think getting welbeck (late as it was), bringing campbell back, and hoping for development from sanogo (not to mention getting alexis) was in part to help with giroud’s burden.
and given we’ve got a stack this high of midfielders, before injury, that we were wondering if they’d get enough game time, well, here we go. they get game time.
the defense, i will say, should have been strengthened. i just can’t figure out with whom.
Bt8, Giroud actually got injured in a game he came on as a sub. After been given extended rest to recover from his World Cup exertions.
dr. faustus, iirc theo’s was a result of contact, that is, his balance was affected by the defender and it affected where and how he set his foot. unlike, seemingly, arteta and rambo this weekend.
i think our players, knowing we’re thin on the ground at certain positions, push harder than is their want, and end up doing more than their bodies are capable. so there’s a stick we can beat the boss, or the board with. that said, things like debuchy’s catching his studs, sagna’s having his leg stomped on twice, giroud’s tibia being broken, cesc’s leg, rambo’s leg, diaby’s ankle (and since), eduardo’s leg…what are all those, and who do we blame for them (besides the obvious culprits)?
and, cent, he scored the tying goal just a couple minutes before he was hurt.
I never make pronouncements about our injuries as I have no medical knowledge. I also don’t know what we get up to at Colney. So I tend not to make judgments based on no data and no knowledge. I can see we do get a lot of injuries but my understanding stops there. I’m always happy to hear from Trev or anyone else who can help illuminate this. And I’m sure we’ve had some bad luck even if there are other ongoing and underlying issues.
My overriding feeling is simply that I share everyone’s frustration that we rarely have all our players fit. If Rambo and Walcott had been available all season last year I think we would have won more than the FA cup. We would then all be having a different discussion now. As it is TTG’s above list of injuries makes for depressing reading. Again.
OK then Cent, Scruz. I’m not good on some of the details of the Giroud injury but still think he was drastically overplayed last season and would not have been at all surprised if he had been injured the same day under slightly different circumstances for the very reason of his having been overplayed so much over the previous 12 months.
I think you’re being oversensitive, Trev. My point was simply that historical precedent has positives as well as negatives, but that while the negative precedents are endlessly repeated, complete with a chorus of sages stroking their beards and muttering “He’s right, you know that”, the positive precedents generally aren’t.
And then, ttg comes along, conveniently ignoring my explicit denial of any complacency.
A drink on the bar for each of you to accompany my resolution to consider the matter closed.
COYG
I say this with my tongue firmly in my cheek (and I do not wish to give anyone ideas about unreasonable and ridiculous things to gripe about during the next transfer window) but how long before players don’t want to sign for us because they are scared of getting injured?
We must rescue the Voodoo priest SAG mentioned earlier. Mourinho has kidnapped him and is extorting his compliance in his evil plan to keep all our players injured and ensure Wenger never beats him. That’s the only answer that makes any sense to me…
Scruz @121
Despite there being no good defenders out there let’s just speculate that we made the loan of Cpl Jenkinson contingent on us getting a loan or purchase of Winston Reid. Otherwise don’t lose Jenkinson.
Move early doors for the biggest bargain in the close season, Joleon Lescott who can cover at centre half or left back . ( we need three left backs) . If those didn’t work out get Arbeloa from Real Madrid. He can cover both full back positions and centre back. Two of those have extensive experience, Reid is in the last year of his contract and I have it on good authority was desperate to move to the Emirates
The trick might be to try these manoeuvres a few days before the end of the transfer window not on the afternoon of transfer deadline day. We bid for Reid around the time we were tying up the deal for Welbeck while Arsene was with His Holiness.
scruz @ 123: Absolutely, we get a lot of contact injuries as well. But we do get quite a few non-contact ones — and to be fair, some most likely being consequences of a previous contact injury, Diaby being the saddest examples of this vicious cycle — too and as we evidently don’t seem to have a very firm grasp on the reasons behind those I think it would be insightful — if at least by normalizing the data compared to other teams — to perform a statistical analysis of our non-contact injuries.
There is indeed a problem with excessive injuries in our squads, and there are definitely a lot of complex reasons behind them, some of them are interlinked. Just purely from the perspective of being able to make tangible progress on the injury front maybe a simplification approach — simply try to identify a few empirical patterns and see if changing things a bit to move away from them works — works better than actually figuring out each of those factors one-by-one.
Maybe, and this is just a thought, that is what the new team is trying to do and eventually they will make tangible long term progress but just with any adjustment we are seeing some short term consequences?
We are the Arsenal!!!!
That is all…
for now.
And yes.
I have a beer gut.
Been out earlier but some interesting drinks have been downed.
Firstly, I feel for you Holic @ 87, when some drinkers are not capable of maintaining respectful debate which is the only requirement you require us to comply with. I sincerely hope your patience is not pushed beyond your limits – this is the best bar for gooners…well bar none!
Differing views have always been part and parcel of an ardent football supporter and that does not infer a lesser supporter – we do not live in an autocratic society. Following our club can be a frustrating experience at times but there are also many magical moments to savour as well.
Hopefully our missing & “loved” regulars will return soon.
Dr F.
That last paragraph is a good thought. I hope you are right and could certainly handle some short(ish) term problems if we are on the path to significant long-term improvement.
However, we can’t get too far behind if we want to win anything this year.
As another Mr. Forsythe has often said, “Points make prizes.”
*cough*
I agree completely with Uply. That conversation you had Holic is a seriously scary one. Absolutely thrilled there have been some encouraging drinks to lift your spirits.
If Lars doesn’t mind perhaps we should get some more of that lovely chilled Dom out for everyone? I’ll pass round the glasses- who wants to pour?
H2H …. Lager is classified as a beer ?? 😉
Agree, we are The Arsenal and also The Special One is The Special C*nt ….end of. If ever I turn a little to the dark side with regard to the tenure of our current manager, a quick thought of The Obnoxious One being in charge at the HOF consigns that moment to the depths of hell 🙂
Well said Holic @87 nothing to disagree with. Couple of old faces aren’t drinking here anymore and it is such a loss.
For example, I miss our old friend Cusop every now and then. What happened to the fella anyway, he was so amusing?
On a serious note, I always loved the optimism this bar offers, being quite a pessimist myself.
Many here will disagree with lot of what I have to say, many even might think that I am not a true fan because sometimes I criticize a lot. But, I am. I suffer when we lose, and I suffer a lot, and I enjoy when we win and believe me, I enjoy it a lot. Just like you. Just like every real fan.
So, please, if anyone believes that staying always positive makes him a better fan then me, or more appropriate one, good luck, you’ve made your choice.
But, just think about it, that wherever some of you are fed up with some of us being critical and repeating ourselves over the same mistakes that the club keeps on doing year after year, I am fed up with many of you making excuses for the same mistakes that club makes over and over again. But I carefully read every single excuse written here, every single day and I never ever said to any one here that I will never ever read his posts again. No matter how one sighted,repetitive and one dimensional they seems to me. That is what I call respect.
I’ve always thought that the real beauty of this place is for people to express their feelings with respect to each other, no matter if they are critical, balanced or positive, becuse every single one of them is about the Arsenal, the only thing that all of us here have in common and every one of us loves.
Pangloss,
I have been very specific whenever I have written anything about injuries in the bar. In answer to your post @49, I have only quoted from it and explained why I feel I should not simply be lumped in with “some on here” who are always pessimistic, presumably because of my comment @44.
If that’s your definition of oversensitive, then we will have to disagree again.
If you want to challenge what I’ve said, then fine. But let’s have something a bit more interesting than criticism for just not being optimistic enough.
Holic and holics, hello!
Holic, as always, a real treat to read your thoughts. But I must take exception with your take on Chadli’s celebration. Thought it was hilarious, made me giggle like a school girl. It’s the NLD, for pete’s sake, bring it on, Spurs! Winks at Dave 😉
Holics, I’m not brown nosing here, believe me. This is the best round of drinks, I’ve sampled in awhile. Well done!
Now our injuries, have brought new meaning to the question, ‘which Arsenal will show up?’ 🙁 I’m with Lurky, Trev , 8ball and others, who believe it is not coincidence. Furthermore, I’m in the camp with those who believe we could have had a shot at the title last year and this year, if not for our ongoing injuries.
We must now rely on intelligent play, more than ever. Woj must improve on his distribution (yes fellas, when you said that, I payed attention). Flamini must mark his man, not run around trying to put out fires all over the pitch. He will be less fatigued, keeping it simple.
All our players must quit chasing down impossible to retrieve balls, when the last touch is by an opponent. Save your hamstring, and let it go out for an Arsenal throw, please!
BB, thanks for your lighthearted contributions xx
And yes, Steve T, cba and others, we’re keeping your place at the bar, till you come back xx
Trev….no knee jerk reactions I see…don’t want to risk another injury 😉
On a more serious note, hope you are getting back to full mobility and pain free. Appreciate your continued informed view on the injury pandemic our club seems to enjoy. Cheers.
Lurky@137
Cheers for a good post.
I would certainly never claim anyone here to be more of a fan or more invested than you. Danger lies in that direction and it is just an unfair claim to make.
Personally, I sometimes find your rebuttals to be quite sarcastic (for example your @26 comments about Flamini’s brother- you could simply have said you think Flamini is as likely, or more likely, to get a yellow/red than Chambers) and that this sometimes puts down the person you are disagreeing with by taking the mick out of their views. However, I have got used to that as your style and realise you are not trying to be disparaging. So I put my Big Boy Hat on and respond as and when I see fit.
As such, I think there is a difference between discussing the reasons for certain things and making ‘excuses’ for them.
I do read all of your posts -even though we are at other ends of the spectrum in here!
Your last paragraph says it all really. Well said.
Would you like to pour that Dom Perignon?
Good evening Nursie, hope all is well with you in sunny FL.
Some of your genteel touch is needed to disperse goodwill to some of our inebrients 😉
Cheers, Uply. 😉
Struggling a bit of late – but press on.
Hi Nursie. 😉
GSD…Dom Pom, you can pour me a glass, trust it’s a good vintage 😉
Lurky, I admire all of the non “locals” who frequent this bar. Their commitment & support is nothing less than amazing 🙂
Uply,
Lars is paying. I don’t know if it’s a good vintage but its the most bloody expensive one we could get our hands on!
And as for the non “locals”- don’t forget how good is the standard of written English in this place too. Again, nothing less than amazing.
Trev…sorry to read that. Hopefully improvement will continue over the next weeks.
Offering for all the old time and new time holics. Even for the other time holics wherever you have hid, you worthless sods. 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVI3sjpcSy4
GSD…..always check the label 😉
Agreed, the standard of the written English by those for whom it is a second tongue is truly commendable.
8ball,
Why have you linked to an advert for ‘Good morning, Britain?’
Worse still, in the four seconds of promo images for their inane interviews that I watched, Jose Mourinho’s smiling face appeared. Why would you do that? Why?
bt8b at 126…but…but…you really *can’t* find any fault something that *doesn’t* happen, like that…can you?
Cheers bt8b, great song and singer ( even though “no video available” ).
GSD. Sorry! The internet presents different things to different people, apparently. In my case that link had no ads at all and certainly no Mourinho.
Scruz. Maybe not but I did spend all last season praying Giroud wouldn’t be injured because I thought he was getting run down with the lone striker role. Then a World Cup and a quick start to another season and the likelihood he would be injured was increased that much more.
ttg @129, i swear, when i spoke with arsene about it he didn’t mention winston reid. he just wanted jenks to get some playing time under fat sam.
seriously, though, if you have inside knowledge, then great. if not, writing about what was contingent on what doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. i don’t think we should have let jenks go UNLESS wenger thought with chambers and bellerin he had the position covered, with higher quality.
the one that makes me chafe is letting tv5 go, and not replacing HIM. lescott was passed on by all the other teams in the top half of the table who might need defensive cover (and liverpool), so perhaps his ship has sailed, and he isn’t enough of a top class defender. when we picked up what looked up to be a good buy in squallici to “make up the numbers” as people say, he turned out to be just as bad as we’d expect a veteran to be playing as the 4th CD. maybe worse. we’re supposed to do the same? i’d rather rely on isaac hayden, or semi ayiji.
now, if we can prize an arbeloa away from a real during the january window, bully for us. but i’m not holding my breath.
Apology accepted 8ball. wink.
I never watch ‘Good Morning Britain’ and hate Mourinho. Why was that what came up for me?
Now, if I can just get the internet to apologise then I’m back to square one.
Great song, mind.
lurky@137, i’d never have pegged you as a pessimist. even your name screams optimism, mostly around the round numbers of tons. wonders never cease. 😉
Nursie, always glad to see you. Our boy Gervais is a monster this season, so glad for him.
GST,
I agree, there is a difference between discussing the reasons for certain things and making excuses, but the same difference might apply between discussing the reasons for certain things and criticizing too, don’t you think. We all think that we are discussing, almost no one will admit that we are sometimes fighting 🙂
You have a point about me being sarcastic tho. My way of expressing I guess and I appologize if anyone’s offended, I’am really not aware of it sometimes.
Anyway, kind of late for a drink, maybe just one, for a good night sleep. Cheers.
Umply, nothing to admire believe me. Love and passion, all the usually stuff. Would like to come and visit the Ems once in my life, tho. Will feel more of a “local”, then I guess.
uply@148, agree completely. even when it’s overwrought, i give utter and total respect to these linguists, who are far more cunning than i. if i were a fan of real madrid, or juventus, or any team anywhere else in the world where the language is not that amalgam of norman french and the language of the angles which i hold so dear, i would be even less cunning, relatively speaking. ’cause while i can speak a pidgin, i certainly can’t write anything more than a newly-schooled child…
Scruzz, my original name here was Lurky Oliva and everyone thought I was a female birdie. Optimism, my arse. 🙂
bt8b @152, i was on the kneeler next to you praying for his health. his getting hurt the way he did, for he wasn’t looking even back to form, let alone in good enough form to be hurt in some mysterious way (as was aaron saturday), well, that’s down to him not giving up on many balls. if he was just willing to let that clearance clear, he’d still be on the pitch for us, i believe.
and, hi abb!
scruz,
I’ll resist the temptation to make the obvious remark about you being a cunning linguist. 😉
Lurky,
Maybe sparring rather than fighting- it’s all practice for our battles with the real enemies- Spud, Chavs etc.
In answer to the “don’t you think” bit of your post- yes I do.
A pleasure raising a glass with you. Lets all hope you get to the Ems sooner rather than later (and then we can raise more than one!)
Trev,
Go on, I’ll bite.
You make a good point you master debater.
lol, lurky. i remember your original moniker. i thought maybe you were related to an old minnesota twins baseball player 🙂
oh, trev @161…i thought i’d just lobbed that floater up to the wicket for you…or something like that, cricket being as opaque to me as writing spanish.
@165 Scruz- heh.
In cricket it is definitely considered ungentlemanly to lob floaters at the wicket.
gsd, if anyone accused me of being a gentleman, i’d have to lob *something* at them. preferrably heavy, and explosive.
Cheers, Lurky (#137), let’s grab a table in ta dark corner of the bar and mutter our dire predictions quietly so no-one can hear us, okay? I mean, from what we’ve seen so far this season – exacerbated by half (including many of the better half) of the squad in and out of the cripples patch-up room like Saturday night pub crawlers and the loo – it’s plain daft to expect our loved ones to win the league this season, or anything else for that matter, let alone get away from the bus stop with any credibility remaining on Sunday.
I’m praying for a miracle as always, even though I don’t believe in the imaginary friend who supposedly grants such prayers, but all the positivity in the world isn’t going to change the facts that the chavs are breezing along, while we are struggling. Logic suggests another thrashing.
Right now it looks like another trophyless season, and 4th place IF we are lucky. Unless we can pick up Reus and perhaps a couple of others in January? Or St Shad performs miracles in the physio room…
Öskar
As soon as Wenger accepts my offer, I will fly in the voodoo priest as soon as possible so we can fix all these injuries once and for all. It’s getting ridiculous.
Holic@87 – The Blog is obviously evolving just like life and just like the Arsenal.
Congrats on the evolution, even though it may not have evolved at a pace or in a direction you may have first hoped or intended.
The fact that you have allowed the natural evolution to take place without fear or favour, shows the depth and quality of the place, those who partake and your management. Like any good bar, some may drift away for a short period, but they usually return when least expected.
Like many others on here, I started in here as simply an avid silent follower who enjoyed your posts and the following drinks, agreeing with some and disagreeing with some, but just like evolution itself, I decided to simply have a small say on a particular discussion.
(I am sure some wished I stayed a silent reader, sorry).
However, I thoroughly enjoy the incredible amount of history and knowledge within the bar regarding all things Arsenal and especially the broad reach of the place and the opinions of those with whom I don’t agree on specific Arsenal topics.
But that is the only difference that is sometimes missed, it is simply a difference of opinion about a specific Arsenal topic, it is never or should never be taken or delivered personally, even though following a football club like Arsenal is very personal, hence the passions.
Win lose or draw, agree or disagree, this place has always been and hopefully will continue to always be the most honest, transparent, respectful and interesting place to hang out as an Arsenal fan because of the natural evolution of the place.
Cheers for allowing (and demanding) respectful debate….
TTG@109 – great post from start to finish. ” I demand huge things within the Arsenal fold but defend us savagely outside”.
well said and here-here. a drink on the bar for you.
Lurky@137 – along with TTG also a great post from start to finish.
I agree that criticism or critique of something does not mean any less respect or love of something and similarly, criticism of specific individual points about a football club does not make you any less a supporter of the football club.
A drink for you next to TTG’s as there is plenty of room for all in this bar
Anyway – up the arse always and I would not be at all surprised if we win both matches this week, given it all looks difficult and our backs are against the wall with injuries.
That is what I love about all things sporting and things Arsenal, she is always completely unpredictable when you expect it the least…
Would have read the article but couldn’t stop laughing after I read the headline.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2774339/Vincent-Tan-wants-Russell-Slade-outlast-Arsene-Wenger-s-record-longest-serving-manager.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
Too much respect and love-in going on here. Bring the feisty back.
Dr F.: my understanding is that London Colney has a pitch identical to that used at the Ems for just the reasons you outline.
Everyone else: the world always looks better after a glass or several Dom Pérignon. Now if we could just lay our hands on a, actually the bottle of the ’93 Veuve Clicquot (that’s the 1893 vintage), or at a pinch the 1907 shipwrecked Heidseick, there would be peace on earth and even a modicum of civility in this bar…
fuck off, lonestar 😉
oops, sorry, not yet FFF 😀
Ned, I’ll take ’93 veuve and retire with considerable happiness!
Scuz, way to go.
NBN @ 173: If I remember accurately the reports after the shipwrecked 1893 vintages were auctioned and some were tasted that even though they remained very fresh the bubbles have gone and the taste was sweeter than even the sweetest demi-sec and more like desert wine. 🙂
So, staying within that theme of nectar wines may I offer a round of 6 puttonyos Tokaji to everyone in the bar? Especially the indefatigable ones who keep this bar always open.
…or a round of Morris Old Premium Rare Liqueur Muscat, an historic example of the finest Australian liqueur. To be coupled with Jumbo Virginia Roasted Peanuts in the Shell … the finest food and drink combo ever conceived by the taste buds of man.
Öskar
I’ve started drooling after writing my previous and had to go immediately to my liquor cabinet for the Yalumba Museum Reserve Muscat there (the Morris is unavailable in NZ, bugga) and the peanuts I bought yesterday … for a feast. It’ll do for my dinner tonight!
Öskar
An humble observation about this establishment: among all the disparate voices of world-weary cynicism, the wild optimism, the intellectual hypertrophy, the mod madness, the icy nervelessness, the warm camaraderie etc. there is a common personality trait that unites us all.
I mean, other than the fact that we are all Arsenal fans — rather hopelessly so, if I may add, no escape my friends.
We haven’t quite left our adolescence behind.
Or rather, our adolescence hasn’t quite left us. We are immortals as long as we are Arsenal fans talking about our club and the next match and the match after and this season and the season after.
Time doesn’t exist. It branches into ever opening possibilities. Like an infinite tree, whereas our own personal life inexorably marches towards its own end.
It is more than a fraternity. More than a faith. More than religion. More than obsession. More than Art. It is magic.
It is magic that promises an unending relationship. Right now, and forever.
Your favorite musician leaves everything and becomes a monk, your favorite author writes some masturbatory gibberish, your favorite friend no longer talks to you as one of you have tried to be more human than the other.
But there is always Arsenal’s next match. And then there is this place to talk about it.
Certainties do not come any more certain than that.
Intellectual hypertrophy, Dr F? Pffft, I say. The real question is … do adolescents have more fun in adolescence than adults do in adultery? Answer me that one!!
Öskar
Oskar @ 181: 🙂
I would say the adults have more fun in adolescence. 🙂
I was so much older then I am younger than that now…etc. etc.
Good ole Bob Zimmerman!
😀
excellent points above on team selection.
For me the team against the chavs:
Shez
Calum Mert Kos Gibbo
Flamini Diaby (if he can play an hour)
Ozil
Alexis Ox
Welbeck
Diaby to be replaced by Coq at 60
Of course it all depends on who plays against the turks. I would play Santi, Campbell and Coq. However I believe wenger will play a stronger team on wed looking for 3 pts after the early loss.
I would happily take 4 pts in the next two.
Are we playing Olympiakos or are these the turks.. come to besiege us?!
http://i.imgur.com/OKQjQVI.jpg
Agree, Dr F @ 182. If I knew as much now as I did when I was 17 I’d be positively Delphic.
Öskar
Ah with our depleted squad facing the chavs, time to be philosophical about it all : http://imgur.com/gallery/ojhLa
😀
Whoever they are, BB, they’re heading the wrong way down the road and won’t last five minutes against London cabbies. That’s if they don’t freeze to death first!
Öskar
Now for some recollection:
Man U glory days (..they’re getting there again) : http://i.imgur.com/tNk581o.gif
When fat sam was fatter, he sure was jollier : http://i.imgur.com/zsRjBJ8.gif
That’s how to clear a ball! (we should employ a no nonsense, 100% effective solution against Chelski) : http://i.imgur.com/KN5DebO.gif
Be wary of the chavs tactics.. : http://i.imgur.com/YoWGKDI.gif
Show the dour one the respect he deserves : http://i.imgur.com/XvgeNyj.jpg
The football we should aspire to : http://i.imgur.com/5nDH9GV.gif
And a reminder of what we can actually do! : http://i.imgur.com/v0C5Ris.gif
Up The Arse!
😀
Cheers, Oskar and Aussie
Dr. Faustus, that post @180 just made my day started in a very pleasant way. So much perspective and positivity, I really enjoyed it.
Oskar @186,
That is exactly why we should all ensure that the young are put out to work while they still know everything. 😉
Dear all, thank you for various kind comments above. Despite my loyalties being elsewhere, I’ve enjoyed this fine bar for about 4 years now (only as a reader until quite recently) having stumbled across it just before the NLD of Nov 2010 (score escapes me…). I believe that it’s become a more confrontational place, particularly in the last year or so, but in my opinion it is still one of the best blogs out then for healthy debate. Anyone who posts should respect the guv’nor, who clearly spends a huge amount of his own time running the place, and I’d say that’s best done by keeping things civil if possible. Easier said than done sometimes I know and happens everywhere. Believe it or not there are even some right clowns on Spurs blogs…
Dr F: a glass of what Otd is drinking @179 for your @180.
Another fine post, Dave. It’s a pleasure to read your rational and thoughtful analyses. A virtual pint on the bar for you.
Ned@173: There is a whole bunch of pitches at the training ground that are identical to the one at the stadium. There is also one that they deliberately keep in a crap state and which they use the day before away games where they know the pitch will be shit (Stoke away in the winter months for example).
Hi dave, perhaps you are right and the bar maybe more confrontational than in previous eras on here or perhaps there are just more posters on here now who were once silent readers like you and like me who are now having more of an open say about their preferred club and the manager and areas that they believe are worthy to be considered to make their club even better.
Maybe that just goes against the grain of those who are not comfortable with change or the evolution that begins before the change can take place.
Change will always be not so comfortable for some.
For others it is a natural progression and usually a needed one.
Dr.F absolutely right sir, it is without doubt the spell bounding effect that the club has on all of us that makes us worry and rejoice in equal measure.
At times my worry maybe misinterpreted as moaning but it is not. I love this club like life and it is just the sense of disappointment that merits a reaction.
I do not expect much more than my club playing with a desire and hunger for success. There were examples of come backs been sited here when i remarked we do not seem to do comebacks, well its been few and far between in recent memory and against the bigger teams it is even lesser.
Jack is back for tomorrow and reports of Kos and his Achilles being fine could mean a fairly strong line up.
I do hope for a fairly comfortable win with goals from Sanchez and Danny and most importantly an injury free ending.
Based on the Injury League Table, we are looking at players coming back as follows:
8th Oct (misses Gala, Chavs)
Arteta
Sanogo
25th Oct (misses above plus Hull, Anderlecht)
Gnabry
Walcott
1st Nov (misses above plus Sunderland)
Ramsey
December (misses above plus at least Burnley, Anderlecht, Swansea, Man U, Dortmund, WBA)
Debuchy
Giroud
No return date
Monreal
NBN @ 198: But wasn’t Monreal’s back problem supposed to be a small one and he was supposed to be fit after the Internationals? Hope “No Return Date” in this case simply means lack of a concrete date and not a long term injury.
Gala tomorrow is hugely important, if we don’t win things would start to feel rather shaky in CL and we will go into Chelsea low on confidence.
If Jack needs a little recuperation we should go ahead with Ox in the box-to-box — he has played rather well in that role whenever given a chance and has a very good defensive discipline — and Alexis and Santi flanking Welbeck, with Ozil at #10, and Flamini as DM.
NBN, Lurky, BB, Vinay — thanks for the kind words.
Aussie@196, not saying change is bad at all and of course peoples opinions will differ even when they both want the same thing, just think that if it can be done without it getting personal or generally abusive then that’s got to be better way to debate stuff.
On a random but Arsenal-related note, I just saw this interesting-looking book on Paul Vaessen has been longlisted for the William Hill Sports Book of the Year Award:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stuck-Moment-Ballad-Paul-Vaessen/dp/1909050067/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1412082621&sr=1-1&keywords=stewart+taylor
CL? What CL? They will show us that they don’t need CL. 🙂
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29423048
Ha ha ha!
I had a dream that one day Arsene Wenger will not be coaching Arsenal and we’ll start buying players that are not available.
Buying players that are available only left is with Chamak, Gervinho, Park, Santos, Sonogo, Ozil, Welbeck and Sanchez when we would have gotten players that are not available.
I love change, me.
Particularly when people change the bloody record once in a while.
COYG
Agree wholeheartedly dave as Mentioned in 170 above.
Good luck for the season whatever it brings you and your team
Confrontational? As I recall, Cusop ended up being banished because of a popular uprising despite what the Guvnor had counseled the drinkers. That was pretty confrontational I would say. There is a marked recent increase in confrontationality though, with Dave excluded in that regard. The ghost of Cusop has returned?
If ManU are seriously considering mid-week friendlies to make money then that means two things:
1: ManU are desperate for money even with just one season outside of the Champions League.
2: If they go through with it they are totally mad. Time they could use for training and recuperation shall be spent flying around and playing exhibition games???
I can’t see them going through with this. It would just be too stupid, but I guess it really depends on how desperate they are for some money.
N7: Particularly when people change the bloody record once in a while.
I agree, like I have said again and again and again and again and again and aga…
🙂
This leopard has stripes.
I love change, me.
Down at the Doctors. 😎
Lars @ 207: I would say intelligence is often a function of steady nerves. Man U are showing all the telltale signs of a deeply anxious entity and more they heap such pressures on themselves more they would start making such strange decisions.
Unlike our gentle club I don’t think they have ever made the contingency plan for the year or two or few they may need to spend watching others play CL. And then they kept on spending. So if they don’t get to CL this year they need to have a way of earning more TV revenues and keep their profile high enough.
Long may it continue. If they cannot make the top four this season it would start to get really interesting for them.
As a relative latecomer to this esteemed establishment, and with the discussions re the current injury profile, I’ll pose (what may be) a simple question that someone with the knowledge and access to the data (show us the numbers!) could answer:
For AW’s tenure, what is the injury profile for Arsenal in the pre-Emirates interval vs. the Emirates interval?
My understanding is that the pre period saw relatively few injuries, or at least fewer longer term ones. Invincibles were not a particularly deep squad, but was a side that, despite not rotating much, did not have discontinuity due to injury which contributed to its consistency.
Clearly there are other factors that could be playing into the perceived increase in injuries, with the obvious one being that the pre squads were staffed by much more mature, experienced players who were also physically bigger than the Emirates squads which are/were loaded with younger, less mature, smaller players. And the size of the opposition players and the pace of the EPL matches versus every opponent has grown as well.
But maybe there is something to this Emirates/Colney turf thesis. Is the pitch at the Emirates and Colney now that much different from the Highbury pitch?
Manchester United have suffered a further injury blow with the news that midfielder Ander Herrera could face a spell out with a rib injury.
The club tweeted that the 25-year-old suffered a fractured rib against West Ham on Saturday and they will monitor his fitness over the next few weeks.
——————–
Aha..hahahhahahahhaha!
😀
Dr. F: If you put “small back problem” in to Google Translate for Arsenal to English, you get back “no return date.” — just as “knock” translates as “three months.” 🙂
Lars@208: 🙂
Change is the only constant.
Bayonne Jean: I don’t know if there is any difference between the pitches other than the Emirates pitch being bigger, but I know the Emirates pitch is very, very hard. It’s not much softer than concrete, and some think this could be a contributing factor to the injuries.
Bayonne Jean: the hybrid real/artificial turf used at the Emirates is widely used in professional soccer. Old Trafford, the Ethiad, Anfield, the Swamp at the other end of the Seven Sisters Road and the bus stop at Fulham, to name just five grounds, have all installed the same Desso Grassmaster system that is at the Emirates. (The Bronocs, Packers and Eagles also play on it.) So my assumption is that if the playing surface was the main contributing factor to our injuries, the same would be true at ManU, Citeh, ‘Pool, the neighbours, and the Chavs, which doesn’t seem to be the case.
Bayonne J,
I did try to cover all those factors, which I believe are relevant, in that guest post for what it’s worth.
Not sure where it is now though.
Oh, it’s in “Guest Tales” if you want to take a look – about 6 or 7 articles down.
Cheers Trev.
I just re-read your piece. Really excellent stuff- very illuminating and informative. And, frankly, exactly why I don’t proffer opinions on our injuries- I’d rather hear yours.
Hello Dave.
Just when we need him, AW tells us Diaby “is not completely there yet”. FFS, can’t even provide cover, ever. Does anybody honestly still think this guy deserves a squad number ? I don’t care how great a warrior or how nice a person he is. And why can’t the Manager get his Coq in and his Flam out ? It seems so obvious for this CL match. If Coq flops (droops?) then sure, Flamini for Chelsea. I can’t actually remember Coq playing badly in his limited game time, tidy and unspectacular, always very committed too. But Wenger doesn’t seem to want to try it from the mutterings to date. Finally, entirely as expected, we are flogging Chambers to death. Just to make absolutely sure he also will be a British player in his early to mid 20s beset by niggly injuries. Wilshire, Gibbs, Theo, Rambo, Ox…can we finally start blaming over-playing (at a very young age) as opposed to pitch hardness, medical staff deficiencies, international matches or any other old tosh. This coach simply does not protect his gifted young players. Bloody hell this is all very annoying when we now have some seriously talented players onboard. Grrrrr. COYG.
I think Diaby deserves a squad number.
I imagine a lot of people would be unhappy if a 28 year old under-contract Arsenal football player were not given a squad number.
While we are on the subject of what Diaby deserves I also think he has dealt with much he did not deserve.
I hope to see him contribute to this team. The greater the contribution the better in my eyes.
If it’s over-playing then how does that account for the likes of Debuchy and Monreal?
How about Arteta, who had plenty of rest in the build up to the NLD? Or Giroud, who had a prolonged rest after the WC and then hurt himself in a 15 minute cameo at the end of a game he’d been rested for?
I think Arsene needs to rotate more, but there are signs this season that he’s starting to do just that (eg Sanchez, the German players), and I think it’s too simplistic to pin this injury record on a single factor; particularly given that overuse of certain players is as much a symptom of an injury crisis as a probable cause.
As to what IS causing the problem: I’ve no idea, so will continue to defer to Trev, and others who have expertise in this area, and laugh at chancers like le grove, who think twenty minutes on the Internet leaves them sufficiently well informed to deliver a decisive medical prognosis and hang the manager and his medical staff off the back of it.
Personally, I would play chambers these next two games and then rotate him with Bellerin and Coquelin in the softer run of fixtures thereafter.
N7 Gooner, what do u think of a Coq and Flamini MF behind Ozil. I think Wenger can pair either one of Coq/Chambers along side Arteta/Flamini . I feel we need some kind of speed behind ozil for quick recovery incase we lose position. I still don’t think Wenger has much faith in Coq, but at this point in time I don’t think we have that much options anyways.
Someone trying to teach an old Jambo new tricks? I’d buy a ticket to watch.
@SAG
I like Coquelin a lot, but equally I have to recognise that he doesn’t seem to have impressed Wenger much and that no other big clubs have come in for him.
I think that players who don’t play tend to grow in the imagination, in much the way that there were agitated calls for rosicky and Campbell to start games before both were extremely quiet in the Carling Cup last week.
I would actually like to see us experiment with playing Coquelin as the lone anchor, maybe in one of our simpler home fixtures, but I don’t expect him to play much next to Flamini, as that’s a midfield that lacks a lot in creativity. Maybe at Stamford bridge if jack isn’t fit, but it would be a real gamble.
I expect to see Coq get more first team games at full back right now, given injuries, and imagine we may see another experiment with Ox at CM tomorrow night, which creates its own issues in terms of lost possession.
Change? I’ll be having none of it. Won’t even acknowledge change around me. As a matter of fact I just saw Gervinho beating Clichy and almost score a goal for Roma but it does not compute in my little head because they are both Arsenal players. 🙁
Barca conceding from set pieces… please desist from copying us (and loan us Messi while you’re at it!)
😀
Hi kids.
So many points, the good, the bad and the down right hidious. Whoever coined the phrase about opinions and arseholes was definitly on to something.
Here’s a few butt cheeks of my own;
*On his brief showing this season Bellerin looks a great prospect, however, he is way short of being ready.
*Diaby is not a DM. But then again, neither is Arteta. If AW believes he can turn him into one then good luck to him, I’d be surprised if he lasts more then two games before breaking down….. Harsh? maybe, but I feel we’d be beyond foolish to pin any hopes on him being fit for a prolonged period, I’d love to be proved wrong though.
I also don’t believe that we can relie on Flam to play three games a week, so what to do?
I hear a lot about Chambers being deployed there, I must admit, I think he has the attributes needed, however, it’s a specialist position and it would be madness to throw him in at the deep end so to speak, especialy against a top team, definetly food for thought though. Other then that, don’t we have a ready made fit still in the squad? Personly I thought that he would of been let go during the last window, but he’s still with us, so………..
Arsene, it’s time to stick our Coq in the middle.
*Thomas Vermaelen had as much chance of becoming a solid DM as Santi Cazorla has of being a PL Keeper.
*You can’t buy players that are “not available”. (FFS)
*I agree with those who think we failed to strengthen the squad properly during the summer, (not for the first time) not addressing the DM and CB positions will cost us dear, alas there’s nothing we can do about it now, short from bringing in out of contract rejects.
*Joleon Lescott left
the Klingon EmpireMan Citeh to play football, i.e be a first choice player, he would not of got that at THOF, probably not at any top PL club hence where he ended up.*Praising Maureen for anything other then being the universe’s biggist queef should result in a public flogging, a revoke of ones goonerdom and being sent directly to bed without any supper.
The same punishment should apply to anyone calling out top gooner Snowy a true Arsenal supporter who follows the team over land and sea (and Leicester).
So, it seems we are faced with something of an injury crisis so early in the season.
In keeping with her continued interest in the club in general, and fit young men in particular, Lady Nina took a trip to the training ground to see what the true state of affairs in our midfield might be.
She tells me that she feels Coq-Chambers could grow into something special – French flair coupled with an adequate amount of height and strength. Being young though, and relatively inexperienced, they would have to concentrate on ball control and not becoming over excited as games approach a climax.
Personally, I haven’t the foggiest idea what she is talking about.
Great quote from Lee Dixon on ITV – Man City v Roma –
“One on one though you’d have to fancy Totti every time.”
🙂
heh.
Not all bad news about injuries… Theo and Gnabry will be back in full training next week!
😀
Top stuff from everyone on here and what can I say H2H hats off!
We are short of players in positions we have already identified during the summer, no need to repeat same old record keeps repeating itself, over and over again. It’s really up to Arsene to figure this out and make sure we can last until Jan perhaps. Yet again injuries are hitting us badly and not for the first time.
We are six games into the season and it certainly doesn’t look good. We don’t trust Flamini neither the youngsters, however whatever happens from now on we need to start winning games starting tomorrow!
BB
That is certainly good news but before Theo will start playing well he will certainly need few games.
Ahh Peter you naughty boy letting everyone know our secrets. With my experience of course I had to single out Le Coq as he’s not yet firm enough and will have to be much harder if he wants to score – he’s playing with the big boys now.
Now that Flimflam, you can normally rely on him to produce a tackle that is normally very hard but last Saturday he was just too limp and let those nasty swamp dwellers get into the box before him.
Meanwhile Peter’s looking forward to those Turkish boys getting a good whipping tomorrow night.
Normally I hate our boys getting injured but that HFB is around a lot more now with lots of energy to burn, so must toodle along. Pip-Pip.
In case you haven’t noticed, Giroud will be signing a 2-years extension, keeping him in the club until 2018.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29427064
Well-deserved.
U19s leading 1-0 v Galatasery and looking good for a win
2-0 now – live on player if you can watch
4-0 and running away with it
Won it 5-1 and I was really impressed with skills of our forwards especially