Guest Post – View From A Sports Physio
Oct 13th, 2014 by 'holic
Once again I am indebted to our very own resident sports physiotherapist, Trev, for his professional view on a topical subject. We have players out for a variety of reasons, and it would take a series of articles to cover them all. Trev looks at one area this week as an example. Do you think you could persuade him to cover a different part of the body in each international break in the drinks? Thanks Trev.
Mark Verstegen – Shad Forsythe’s mentor,
“If we are screening every athlete and we see something that might take someone out of games, we want to address those inefficient movement patterns up front,” he says.
As injuries are once again taking their toll on our season and speculation mounts as to why, it might be interesting to get an overview of how problems can progress through the body.
Bearing the quote at the top of the piece in mind, I thought I might combine Verstegen’s words and one of my own personal experiences of The Arsenal. Everyone is clearly hoping that Shad Forsythe, the new Head of Athletic Performance Enhancement, is going to bring a new approach to avoiding injuries at the club.
One very good place to start, with any sports person and especially footballers, is with foot mechanics. I am not suggesting that the club has not addressed this issue now, but it does illustrate well how injuries can progress.
A number of years ago, fairly soon after the Shenley training and medical centre opened, I had a private tour of the facilities which included everything from the laundry and changing rooms to the coaches offices. It was fascinating and, at the same time, quite surprising stuff. One thing that has stuck in my mind since that day, and I promise you there is nothing weird or fetishy about it, is Robert Pires’ boots !
Robert Pires was clearly a quite brilliant footballer, but also a very flat footed one – if the indications from his gait were anything to go by.
Between the changing room and the training pitches was a room where each player had a peg with six pairs of boots on it. I was amazed to see that, in an elite team containing stars like Vieira, Bergkamp, Henry and Sir Bob, that for all his apparent flat footedness, Pires had no arch support built into any of his boots.
The foot is a three arch structure which should provide spring and balance points.
The main arch runs under and along the instep and is supported by the plantar ligament.
The second arch is formed along the length of the toes, and the third, or transverse arch, runs across the instep.
The balance points are at the heel, big toe and on the outside of the foot just behind the fifth toe.
If the main (plantar) arch of the foot drops – due to genetics or overuse – the centre of the foot rolls inwards ( hyper-pronates) and the person’s weight and main balance point drops back onto the inside part of the heel, leading to strains and inflammation of the ankle ligaments and Achilles Tendon, which is the amalgamated tendons of the gastrocnemius and soleus muscles of the rear calf.
This makes an athlete slower off the mark as the weight has to be shifted further forwards to get moving, but also creates a whole chain of events that can cause a succession of injuries.
As the foot continues to pronate, it drags the tibia (shin bone) into an inwards rotation too. That eventually causes the tibia to become misaligned which distorts the joint spaces up in the knee, leading to pinching and wear of the fibro-cartilages, strain and inflammation of the tendons and ligaments, and wear and inflammation of the patella (kneecap).
The rotation continues through the thigh into the hip causing misalignments of the pelvis, inflammation and even tearing of ligaments in the groin, and protective contractions in muscles around the pelvic girdle.
That, in turn, results in the spine not rising straight from the pelvic girdle, inflammation of the sacro-iliac joints, lumbar strains, misalignments and other back problems.
If the bottom end of the spine is not straight, the head, at the top end, will not be straight either. But the spine requires the eyes and ears to be level in order to be able to balance and coordinate efficiently.
Consequently, the brain causes the spine to compensate for this leaning to one side by bending back the other way, generally in the lower half of the thoracic spine (bottom half of the rib cage). A final compensation is then needed at neck level.
These compensations are achieved, at each point, by contracting the. muscles on one side of the spine to pull it back over. This can lead to pain in the shoulders, neck, headaches and migraines.
Hopefully, all this detail won’t have sent everyone to sleep.
The idea was to show how a simple mechanical failure in the foot can cause postural change in the body, and a whole set of related conditions.
It might put a bit of meat on the bones of Mark Verstegen’s quote at the top of the piece.
Whether it makes anyone feel better about our overcrowded treatment room is another matter entirely.
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167 Responses to “Guest Post – View From A Sports Physio”
Centrocampista?
Champions League Trophy?
Looking over or fixtures list at the bottom in small print I spotted the ominous disclaimer “Fixtures subject to change.”
Can’t say I like the sound of that, unless they are making a reference to our recent performances. If not, maybe they should change it to “Fixtures subject to being held at a fixed time and place.”
Now to read Dr. T.’s most recent Magnum Opus. 🙂
Good post. I’m an OT so it appealed to me! Tony Adams said in his PL Legends spot, “stay with the pack until Christmas and then kick on from there”. Hopefully we are getting this season’s injuries out of the way early. We have a run of easier fixtures now to put some points on the board and then the new year, not to mention the transfer window, could see us mount a challenge. Always optimistic!
*Finishes reading Dr. T’s piece and is provoked to reschedule massage one day earlier.*
Trev,
I am in awe of your knowledge of physiology and although your description of Bob’s boots was a very technical one it was very interesting. He suffered two major injuries in his career, one in 2002 which robbed him of the chance to clinch the title after a stellar season. Wenger subsequently blamed himself for not noticing the amount of running Bobby was doing had dropped alarmingly suggesting he was fatigued and this put strain on his ACL. Maybe your revelation suggests the causation was more complex.
I think I may have mentioned previously that I understand there are some behind the scenes at Arsenal who believe the villain of the injury piece is Tony Colbert the fitness and conditioning coach . When Shad was appointed I and many others thought it was goodbye Tony but no he and Shad co- exist, not altogether happily I am led to believe, but what do I know? Very little but I still think Trev needs to be promoted to the staff at Shenley and given six free season tickets at Club Level as a reward. I hope he will remember who was his Campaign Manager
*finishes above the spuds*
Thanks Trev.
Excellent piece.
Where do I go to my feet checked out? I’m sure I lean too much on my big toes… now I know what it could lead to I’d quite like to nip it in the bud. I don’t want to be the next Diaby!
Nice one Trev.
Whatever it was all about. 😉
Interesting piece, Trev. If I had ever doubted that bio-mechanics is, as we mathematicians say, bleeding complicated, the above would certainly have convinced me.
Great piece Trev.
Thanks for taking the time.
Blimey, Trev. I am not moving from the couch, just in case I inadvertently self-destruct as soon as my foot touches the floor.
Succinctly put Trev, even I could follow it. Cause & effect aptly described – bravo. Now to work out how my staggering home after a session in the the pub relates 😉
Cheers, all.
Never sure whether anyone will bother to fight their way through it.
Thank you Trev, interesting stuff.
I’ve got the same thing as Koscielny.
It do linger.
In agreement with Ned (#12). I got halfway through and couldn’t believe I’ve lived so long without breaking, tearing, straining or crippling at least one leg-associated bone, muscle, tissue or cartilage at least once a month since Ibirth.
Although I did have an Achilles problem once, I remember that, and had to give up football in my 20s.
Öskar
Nice one Trev.
It’s great to read about the interconnectedness and potential fragility of the different parts of a sportsman’s physiology – particularly when in motion.
It’s funny but since Arsenal have introduced their figure-hugging new jerseys this season, I also think it reveals perhaps how players’ overall body shape and muscle mass might increase/lessen their susceptibility to injury. I’d never really thought of it before this season, but Ramsey appears a touch shorter than I’d previously believed, he’s got quite wide hips, big thighs, (and for want of a better word) a wide ‘arse’, and his running style puts a lot of pressure through his hamstrings. He doesn’t run upright, but tends to run like he’s falling forward a lot of the time. This helps him in that it gives him quite a good reaction time and sense of momentum for late bursts into the box, but it does put an awful strain on his quads and hamstrings. I’d never really thought about his shape/gait before this season, but those shirts seem to draw your attention to it, and I almost felt like against Spurs something was going to happen for the heavy way his was running forward on his legs a bit.
Alexis conversely – his low centre of gravity and highly-developed physique all over his body makes him seem much more durable. That said, though he’s survived the buffeting so far, I do wonder how much longer he’s going to go before getting a nasty impact injury. Teams seem set on targetting him, and his sharp game is almost reliant on inducing a tackle from cloggers so he can manoeuvre himself past them…
Nice post Trev with a good overview of how an apparently trivial variant can have devastating consequences for an athlete at the top level of sport. I also concur with Ttg’s post @6. The perpetual propensity of our injury crises has to critically be addressed in the context of the conditioning and training methods employed at our club. It’s now apathetic and too naive a statement to believe that “we have the best specialists associated with our club”.
I recall many years ago when I was a junior doctor working in Edinburgh, not long after graduating, that a good friend of mine was a friend of the Edinburgh Hibernian FC doctor. He was a salaried GP with a specialist interest in Orthopaedics and sports’ medicine. He was mediocre at best, from my personal observations, in his clinical acumen for the very top level of the professional sport. A good family doctor he was but no professor of trauma and orthopaedics, nor of sports’ medicine.
My summary point is this, analysing the biomechanics involved in an injury is wisdom after the event. A more critical null hypothesis is “something is wrong in the acumen of our medical staff to preempt serious morbidity”. In medicine, cause and effect are invariably evident and reproducible. In the case of our club, I do not feel that the work to discover the causes has attained any results after years of repeated case presentations and consequently the competency of those entrusted with this task, and the monitoring of the training and conditioning methods of EACH INDIVIDUAL member of the squad independently, must be pragmatically and professionally questioned now and properly once and for all! Come on, “more haste less speed” already you medical lot!
Up the Arse!
Cheers for that Trev! Fascinating.
Thanks, Trev.
Nice one Trev. You could of course have done it in song, you know. 🙂
Good piece Trev,
Funny enough you say that, my son for instance had a really tight hamstring in the left leg. When he stood up straight in his comfortable position he was bending his left leg at the knee to compensate thus titling his body to the left. This was then distributed to his lower spine as he was leaning to the left. If left untreated at such a young age in long term can cause scoliosis in any age that is. He had to have physiotherapy on his hamstring and Vojtas therapy on his spine to correct this and it worked like a dream.
The foot bone’s connected to the leg bone.
The leg bone’s connected to the knee bone.
The knee bone’s connected to the hip bone…
Them bones. Them bones. Them bones.
Nice work, Trev. Our boys just ain’t mentally tough enough. It’s simples as mind over matter. If you don’t mind, it don’t matter. 😉
Gregoire,
I hadn’t noticed Ramsey “leaning forwards” while running but it could be interesting.
Tight quads, or quads that are relatively much stronger than the opposing hamstrings, will cause a “bum stuck out” stance as they pull across the hip joints.
To prevent imbalance injury to the hamstrings, they should be able to move between 66% and 75% of whatever weight the quads can move.
If they don’t have that strength they are likely to be torn by rapidly contracting quads – as in a sprint.
It will also cause fatigue in the back muscles as they will have to work harder to keep the body upright against the pull of the quads.
Exactamundo Lonestar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLi55MV04a8
Fantastic post and an eye opener in a lot of ways. The importance of foot wear can never be undermined and i wonder if the case of making the boots light ends up giving very less protection to the legs as well.
Maybe the training and the technical aspect does take a toll on the players because of their age. I did read a very interesting article which suggested that these players are very young and the development of the tissues/ligaments will still be a work in progress to reach its peak. Hence any such damages tend to take longer to recuperate. I thought it made sense.
Anyways here is wishing and praying that the injuries stay away for long as i believe this team when fully fit can be a force to reckon with.
I am of the opinion that footwear does indeed play a part in how one runs, namely the less support the better for the feet! (of course this is with the caveat that one does not have any existing medical conditions, deformities etc.) Namely because methinks it does strengthen the foot and connecting muscles. One also tends to ‘feel’ the ground more and are less likely to ‘pound’ with each step and thus resulting in a more ‘gentle’ stride.
However how this works with football is beyond my experience as it does involve people kicking you, sometimes with intention to injure, maybe we should use more padding in boots and shin pads!
😀
Great post!
And then this:
http://news.arseblog.com/2014/10/rosicky-latest-to-fall-victim-to-injury/
hopefully nothing major. 🙁
Argh! Not Rosicky too!
Well this will be a real challenge then, hopefully we don’t have to rush back Theo or Gnabry!!
ARGHHHHHH!
Rosicky injured playing for the Czech Republic
That means we have :
Ramsey, Ozil , ? Arteta, Rosicky, Diaby, Walcott, Gnabry, Chambers( suspension) , Koscielny, Debuchy, Giroud, Sanogo, Ospina all either definitely out or possibly out on Saturday. That’s 13 by my count. Danny Welbeck is apparently fit.
Team may look like
Szczesny
Bellerin Mertesacker Hayden. Gibbs
Flamini. Wilshere
Sanchez. Cazorla. Podolski
Welbeck
Subs Martinez, Monreal, Coquelin, Campbell, Akpom, Zelalem, Crowley
Arteta may be fit but that’s about all. Bath is bringing his kit and Trev is wielding the magic sponge
TTG @ 30: Agreed about the line up except that Alexis has a late night game (albeit friendly) on Wednesday in far-flung Chile and he would be back in London probably by Thursday afternoon at the earliest. So could be a bit risky to start him on Saturday afternoon, however unbelievably fit he might be.
We might play safe and start Campbell who I think has already returned from Korea, where Costa Rica won 3-1 and he played nearly the full ninety minutes.
Also in that line up we might see Monreal in the CD and Hayden on the bench.
I do hope Campbell gets a chance! However, knowing Arsene, he would probably play his strongest side if everyone is injury free (or relatively so anyway).
Still a strong team we have but if anyone else gets injured before then…
🙁
We still have Ox whom both myself and TTG missed to mention. So Ox on the right and Poldi on the left given that there is a midweek CL match we would need a fully fit Alexis for.
More press on Alexis : http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20141014/ox-i-knew-alexis-would-score-free-kick
😀
@DocFaust
Really do hope that Alexis gets that rest. Would dread it if we played him to his breaking point, seeing what sort of impact he’s had on the players and fans alike! Extremely crucial and key player for us this season.
🙂
Faustus
Silly old me! I forgot Ox who I think,will take Podolski’s place. I had overlooked the Sanchez situation but from his recent interview he doesn’t like sitting on the bench but maybe Podolski will start and Sanchez can come on after an hour or so.
The Anderlecht game sees us possibly with Martinez in goal but Chambers should return and we might see Theo on the bench there and possibly Arteta back.
Excellent Trev, thank you.
Nice post Trev.
TTG & BB: Santiago to Lindon I would guess be around altogether 14 hours of actual flying and then a few hours for the connecting stop. I think it is wildly risky to play less than 48 hours after such a travel which would if course follow Alexis giving it all on the pitch the evening before. He would definitely want to play as you suggested but it is the team management’s job to save the players from themselves . 🙂
I think Poldi, Ox — Poldi has a match today but nowadays he gets a few minutes for Germany anyway — with Alexis and Campbell on the bench would be enough. Alexis not to be brought on unless absolutely needed and Joel to get some time. 🙂
To London I meant…
TTG: Any news about how long Ospina is out?
Trev, very interesting stuff.
Dapper DanC@18: I must say that I do at times wonder, much like you, how “world class” these doctors really are. Also, shouldn’t there be sufficient statistical data now to do some proper analysis? After all, we must be talking about upwards of 20 years and quite literally a few hundred injuries under Arsene Wenger – surely someone with even a basic knowledge of chi-squared methods and shit like that (stuff I once knew but have now forgotten pretty much everything about…) must be able to at least come up with theories they can test? And if nothing else just bloody let one third of the group keep going as usual, one third change something and the last third change something else. See any difference over a season? Great, we’re on to something! No? Try something else then. In any case it’s not like we have very much to lose either by at least trying something new either.
Drs. T, TTY and DanC seem to be on to something. Time to start finagling over the last three free season tickets? 😉
Lars, DanC,
You have to wonder really, don’t you.
There seems to be some word play going on now over the Özil injury. Whether “we” are having a specialist assess his injury now, and whether we are going to follow one set of recommendations or another, the fundamental question has to be – why the hell was Özil travelling for international duty with damage to a knee ligament ?
One can only assume it was because he hadn’t told Arsenal it was hurting when he left. And why wouldn’t he tell them ….. ?
There would seem to be a limited number of answers to that one.
Koscielny travelled with tendonitis in BOTH Achilles !
Ramsey’s three to four week injury suddenly doubled to six to eight. Or did it ?
Recovery periods usually turn out to be far longer than the original estimates. That might well happen every now and then, but not with the regularity that “we” achieve. So are injuries being mis-diagnosed, or do they not know how to treat them.
With particular reference to my piece, Jack Wilshere’s foot/ankle problem which spanned two seasons was, we were told, due to a stress fracture picked up in pre-season against New York Red Bulls.
Information was then put out to the effect that he had suffered with this type of problem earlier in his teens.
Well, for how many years, you wonder.
Stress fractures are not incurred in one match, due to one tackle. The clue is in the name. They are the result of repeated stress over a period of time, and that abnormal stress is incurred as the result of some imbalance or mechanical failure.
I have to say that I’m fed up with seeing season after season go up in injury smoke, only to be fed some load of twaddle as to the reason why.
World class ?
The facilities may be. As for the rest ……
Trev,
As a fellow physiotherapist, excellent article. May i also add the concept of functional fitness. For example, a right back who has grown up playing right back all his career, has a body compensated for that position. His left leg will predominately be stronger and better balanced, his right leg more technically developed. Play him at left back, and the body is more likely to break down due to reversing the stresses on the body that it is not accustomed to.
How many times have we seen wenger play players out of their normal positions? the lastest example was Ozil at Chelsea, starting out on the rightside…
Of course it could be coincidence, and causation and correlation are two separate things, however I feel its something that needs looking at and addressing.
Perhaps is we had the appropriate number of quality players in the squad, we might not need to play players out of position in the first place
I see Germany is struggling in the qualifiers, I wonder why??? Maybe is because of some lazy player that the press and some dumb fans has been complaining about. Still can’t remember his name, can someone please remind of that lazy player that plays for the ARSENAL and is now injured. Yea the best No 10 in the world, and we will miss him too. Wish him a speedy recovery.
Dr.F.
Ospina’s injury has received very little publicity. On physio room.com no return date is given . I remember when he came on against Gala when Chez was sent off he received a nasty bang but it was down the other end and I could not see quite what happened. I suspect that was what caused the injury. As we know he suffered an injury playing for Colombia against Brazil which kept him out for a long time after he joined us. Looks like we might have picked the most injury prone keeper we could to go with Diaby, Sanogo, Gibbs and the like. Or maybe we didn’t do a very thorough medical? Or maybe he is just unlucky!
Better news is that according to reports Koscielny and Welbeck are fit for Saturday and it may be that Theo is on the bench although I would prefer he was not rushed back. I would like to see Campbell given an opportunity against Hull
jhlf,
Good point. It might also explain the inconsistency of performance we see – from individuals and the team.
All of these things are worth considering. Goodness knows what the fitness and medical teams have been testing over the last number of seasons.
Whatever the theories were they all produced exactly the same results.
The positional point is a really good one though. In recent seasons we’ve seen Ramsey played on the right wing – Diaby played on the left wing for some time when he did have a short spell of fitness – Eboue was played as a sub on the left wing (!) when he returned from a spell out injured against Wigan. He then left the pitch in tears when he was booed off ( not by me!) for being so awful there.
We even played The Greatest Striker That Ever Lived on both wings more often than he played in the middle. He, of course, then suffered a number of groin injuries.
Dapper DanC,
Sorry I forgot to comment on that very good post @18 this morning.
Time to lower the tone. Unfortunate typo in the BBC’s report on the Germany-Ireland game or is Wolfie copy editing for it these days?
The Irish were wasteful in possession, while Aiden McGeady, handed a free hole behind lone striker Robbie Keane, was unable to influence affairs?
ttg: Ospina is apparently suffering from a recurrence of his earlier thigh injury. Hitherto unreliable sources say at least two more weeks. But who knows? Arsenal two weeks are like dog years.
According to the Physio Room, the returns roster looks like this:
Oct 18: Arteta, Welbeck
Oct 25: Sanogo
Nov 1: Ramsey
Dec 14 Debuchy, Giroud
No return date: Ospina, Ozil,
Oops. Add Rosicky to the no return date.
He is a picture of Ozil playing against Norwich last season:
http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2013/10/20/1226743/217772-arsenal.jpg
Is that strapping on his left knee, the one that has now put him on the injury list with ligament damage.
And here is another one from an unidentified game published by the Guardian in February:
https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/2/11/1392146937281/Mesut-Ozil–012.jpg
The question is, does he just wear his socks high or has he felt the need to protect that knee for some reason? If you Google images of him playing for Germany or Real Madrid, he wears his sock in the customary style. e.g.:
http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9594202.ece/alternates/w620/Mesut-Ozil.jpg
The player you refer to, SAG (#46), invariably plays well for Germany, it’s his club that rarely sees the best of him. And yes, he could be missed by Germany, but no more so than many other players currently on their injury list including Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Reus, Howedes, Schurrle, Khedira and Mustafi, most of whom played in the World Cup tournament. As did Klose, now retired.
Even Arsenal would suffer with an injury list that long. Wait, we do…
Öskar
Welbeck, Ned? Shouldn’t that be Walcott?
Öskar
A very worrying link you posted there, Dr F (#28) … especially the last para!! “Rosicky will be assessed on his return to Arsenal today. The removal will take place on Thursday at St Rita’s Church of the Sacred Heart of the Immaculate Conception before the funeral on Friday.”
Say what??
Öskar
Oskar @ 55: Blogs is spot on, that variety of dark humor is possibly our own interesting response at this time. 🙂
Tearing hairs don’t count.
But if you must need some more tears, read and weep:
http://vizwiz.blogspot.com/2014/10/arsenal-injuries.html
That is staggering. Stranger than fiction as I am sure such a record is beyond the fantasy of the supporters of even our worst opponents.
@56: I meant our “only” interesting response …
TTG @ 47: Looking at Ospina’s record at Nice, not that injury prone was he? 189 matches in six years with Nice. I guess he didn’t recover well from the World Cup injury. Hopefully not something that he would need to carry through the season.
Arsene’s warnings about this could potentially be a very strange season in terms of players’ fitness after such a grueling world cup in sultry condition are turning out to be too prophetic.
Lars @ 42: The vizwiz blog linked @56 is the closest I have seen to a statistical analysis of our injury records. But this one makes no pretense about a true causative analysis because being an outside the author cannot have access to all the different parameters to truly establish a pattern.
As you, Trev and others have mentioned I think there are multiple contributing factors, and what’s worse, they are not independent variables but they have combinatorial impacts where the combination of such multiple factors are much more corrosive than considering them individually. For instance, following Trev’s post, say the combination of poor running habits, ultra-light shoes and a very sleek surface.
It is worth noting that even though the majority of the injuries are suffered by the youngsters who grew up in the Arsenal ranks, it does seem — even if we include the contribution of supporters’ paranoia to that perception — that even players who have been more or less fit in earlier clubs tend to pick out mysterious injuries. TR7 in Dortmund or Ozil until now or Giroud (yes it was a freak one, but not the only freak one that we suffer) earlier in his career have all been relatively injury free. With respect to your point about statistical analysis, it would be great if our “research” team focuses on what exactly are the things that change when these players move to Arsenal. Surface cannot be the answer as you and others had clarified that the same surface is used in many other clubs. Shoes cannot be the answer as they do not change their shoes. What then?
Training? Diet? Supplements? Warm-up/recovery routines?
Otd@55: Walcott is no longer on the injury list. Back in training. I’ve seen the pix on arsenal.com so it must be true.
Dr F@58: AW knows what he is talking about. Surely not…
What surprises me most about those stats, Dr F, is that Manure and Spuds aren’t that far behind us. Without a calculation of injuries x weeks out for each injury it isn’t telling the whole story. I mean, you cannot call Theo’s current nine months out as one injury while also counting some other player’s two weeks out as one injury. One is 18 times worse than the other.
Did you re-read that last para in your link? Sounds like a lot more than six weeks to me! 😉
Öskar
So Welbeck is injured now, Ned? Missed that, I just can’t keep up! 🙁
Öskar
Dr F@57: That chart is interesting but needs some deconstruction. First, out injury rate seems to have accelerated two years after the move to the Emirates. Which suggests, to my mind, that the pitch alone is not the significant factor. With the exception of the neighbours, none of the top five injury-hit clubs in that list use the same pitch as we do. I think as you suggest, we need to look elsewhere for the causes or our injuries.
Otd: start with the assumption that our entire first-team squad is banjaxed, then take anyone who can crawl onto the pitch for a game as a bonus. Also, take your boots if you are going to a match. You never know…
The monks at Castle Ned have started ripping into the underlying data of that chart referenced @57. Most injury prone players in the AW era: Freddie Ljungberg and Ray Parlour. Only Kos comes close among current players. Then it is Dennis and Nasri. So forget the pitch. One in five of our injuries are to the foot or ankle, which suggests tackles. We also get more of these sorts of injuries than the other top clubs. We have fewer knee injuries than our closest rivals. But we have a dismal comparative record with hamstring injuries, which suggests conditioning problems, does it not?. Those are the three main types of injury. Physio experts in the bar — Trev, I’m looking at you — please weigh in on this.
You have to be playing to get injured, Ned. The fact that Ljungberg and Parlour had the most injuries per season means they were fit to play a heck of a lot more than, say, Theo or Jack or Rambo who have missed practically all of a season with a single injury at one time or another. You can have the entire squad accumulating injuries that keep them out for a game or two and it’s still not as bad as having a key player out for the whole season with the one injury.
Öskar
As suggested accuratley and wisely @44
World class facilities and that’s about where it ends
Ned @65,
The obvious thing on the graph to me is the acceleration after the move to The Emirates. Rather than the playing surface though, I would think it’s more to do with the fact that the youth policy was really kicking in, our playing style had altered and, as ‘jhlf’ suggested, we started playing a lot of players out of position, i.e. On their ‘wrong side’.
The whole youth policy / playing style issue was the subject of my other guest post some time ago. It is filed under Guest Posts if you wanted to take a look.
In general though, so many muscle tears do point to conditioning.
I believe Gnabry and Theo could feature in the under 21’s game we have this friday and that should mean they could play a part against Anderlecht mid week than Hull City.
Kos and Monreal are supposedly fine but confirmation should happen in the tomorrow presser.
Sanchez played the whole 90 minutes yesterday in a 2-2 draw and i seriously wonder how he can play another 90 min this saturday for he must be tired, yes even him.
So this could be a strange 11 come saturday and a nervy game as well. Hope we come unscathed and of course with a win.
My friends at untold arsenal have this sorted out. It is because Arsenal get kicked more than any other team. They are targeted deliberately by the opposition who attempt to injure them deliberately. So there you are all these theories about the Emirates and boots and conditioning aren’t the answer. People are just nasty to us.
They are particularly prone to make us strain our hamstrings and twist our knees.
Bullies all of them
Best we all leave it to them then ,ttg. 😉
ttg: the chaps at Untold Arsenal may be quite… shall we say peculiar at times, but hamstring and knee injuries can be a secondary result of being kicked a lot as the kicks can cause pains which causes injuries a la what Trev has described in his post.
And actually, I would like to see some reliable stats regarding how often teams fouling against us are carded versus how often they are carded for fouls against other teams, and also as a bonus how often we are carded for fouls. According to some website article I read the other week we have been the most fouled-against team for years and yet we have apparently only seen one (1) opponent sent off in the league in the last two seasons. That just doesn’t add up if true.
Not saying that is the reason for our injuries, but it could potentially be a factor. Like others have said, this is most likely a coctail of reasons which is why it is so difficult to find (or the people looking into it are incompetent, there is of course also that possibility).
If this Interlull is a FIFA, ahem, organised break, and it lasts for two effing weeks, why the hell is it necessary for teams in S America to be playing at what amounts here to midnight on Wednesday, rendering European based players unfit for Saturday ?!
N.B. My spoil chucker refuses to recognise the words “effing” and “Interlull” – another reason why the two words belong together ! 😉
Lars
You are one of them!
No you do make a very good and serious point but it’s too simplistic to say nasty rough men kick us and we need better protection on its own. I too think it has been a feature of injuries like Diaby’s original one , Eduardo’s and of course the assault on Ramsey by Shawcross.
But this is bigger than just that although fouling may be a contributory factor and we do ourselves no good if we try to play the sympathy card when much of the fault may lie within the club.
My least favourite Arsenal player of the last the years- Gallas claimed that an injury he had to his thigh I think was exacerbated byoor treatment at Arsenal. Those stats we see in that analysis that Dr. F illustrated worry the hell out of me and should worry all Arsenal fans except the Moonies at UA
Pires still playing well,we let him go way too early..my opinion
Kenyangooner
Right at the start of the biggest game the club has ever played. Man was a genius and if they’d listened to Trev about how to cure his flat feet he would have been even better!
Yeah TTG. Gallas my least favourite player for ages.
Never suited us the way Cashley suited the chavs- like a hand in a glove (just prior to a cavity search ).
AGM tomorrow. Stan will be ironing his toupe and Sir Chips will continue to take over the PHW role. I suspect ticket prices, exacerbated by the BBC survey today, injuries and as ever the transfer funds available will dominate but Stan will be asked about his dividend .
Winning the FA Cup might not save the Board from quite a hard time. They are a demanding lot the shareholders though there aren’t too many small holdings left
The Board. Now there’s an Arsenal team deserving of a good kicking.
Öskar
He’ll never take my role, you cheeky bugger.
And I still have my small holding, thankyou very much, although I’d have to admit it’s not as big as it once was.
Dividends ? Not in my day, not in my day.
So small it’s not worth holding, Sir P? Is that what Lady Nina is saying these days?
Öskar
Trev@68: I think we are now all agreed that we can discount the pitch at the Ems being the root cause of our injury problems. You make a convincing argument about youth policy and playing people out of position. Are injuries that result from that exacerbated by the conditioning regime, or is it the other way round?
Not on Trev’s topic but should be of interest to many. Check out the article on the BBC explaining why an average of 1,000 British fans attend each Borussia Dortmund home match. It seems to remind them of how the game used to be back home. Less money and lots more passion, not to leave out the safe standing in the terraces.
This is the money sentence from that piece, bt8b:
The tickets – and beer – are cheap, the atmosphere is raw and seductive and fans, not finance, come first.
Old school. There are a few in this bar who remember when football in London was like that, too.
…and I’m one of them, Ned. I can remember when I would even applaud good play by opposing teams and have nice things to say about them after games. I even went to WHL with a Spuds friend on occasions!
Such shameful things to admit these days… 🙁
Öskar
I should make it clear that I only went to WHL when Arsenal were playing there!
Öskar
Different times, Otd.
This will take you back to your youth, Otd:
http://cards.littleoak.com.au/196566_typhoo_premium/Arsenal.jpg
That would have been early ’60s, Ned. The game I remember best was in 1959 when we thrashed ’em 4-1 at WHL, back in the day when the Lane could hold more spectators than the Ems does today – mostly standing of course. And with everybody smoking and the smoke held in by the stands it was like something out of Dante’s Inferno. Hell for the Spuds that day too! Excellent.
Öskar
Ned / Oskar.
Brings back memories indeed. Like Oskar, would go with pals very occasionally to Spuds. As always, you just turned up on the day and paid yer money at the gate. If a big crowd was expected, you got there 1/2 hour earlier.
With Don Howe, Billy McCullough and young Peter Storey, it was a case of ball or man, whichever was closest – some hardness there!
Black shorts? Vaguely recall if there was a clash of colours, often shorts only were changed, rarely shirts.
That photo also shows the standing terraces below the West Stand. You would pay you money at the ground turnstile (North Bank or Clock End) and then you could pay another small amount ( one shilling?) at the gates separating the ends from middle terracing if you decided to have a middle view. Also if you liked standing behind the goal Arsenal were attacking, you could change ends at half time by walking from one end to the other behind the West Stand.
Those were the days but don’t talk about the latrines!
Nice piece Trev… a little late in appreciating it – my apologies! 😉
Have an OJ on me…
I also used to go to WHL and not just when we were playing there. I saw a few big matches there but was wanting them to lose although I was careful to keep the emotions in check.
News today that Koscielny WILL miss Hull but that Arteta and Rosicky are available and Ramsey should travel to Anderlecht. Wenger also said that Ramsey will travel to Brussels too.
So Saturday might be
Szczesny
Bellerin BFG Monreal Gibbs
Arteta Wilshere
Ox. Cazorla Podolski
Welbeck
Bench
Martinez. Hayden Coquelin Flamini Rosicky Campbell Sanchez
Doubt he will start Sanchez after his long trip.
Doesn’t look too dire
I eventually managed to sit down last night and strapped myself in to listen to the 90minute live arsecast which was held in some pub after the Chelsea result with Philippe Auclair and Amy Lawrence as guest speakers. It really is compulsive listening for those who have missed it and some wonderful points were raised.
I thought Auclairs take on Ozil was one of the most intelligent and informative insights I’ve come across amidst all the media furore and consternation expressed. His basic premise is that he’s a top class talent currently playing in an unbalanced team. He thinks the team is still finding its way and that the manager as yet, has to find the right balance and cites the amount of players who have played in a number of different positions so far this season as proof of that contention. I believe that too and I guess when we consider that there are now 4 more first team players in the side – it gives some appreciation as to the level of change and the struggle to find some consistent form.
Another point about the Chelsea defeat was the manner in how that was decided. That we didn’t arrive psychologically “defeated” and how the gap is certainly narrowing given the amount of possession we had.
So while we are suffering a lot from injuries and while things are not quite clicking on the field – there are still a lot of positives to take from the season to date.
There were also some interesting comments about the immediate nature of the current transfer policy in that we’re now buying established talents which is suggestive (by Auclair) that this may well be Arsene’s last contract. I generally don’t value many opinions when it comes to Wenger – but I genuinely think that Auclair reads Wenger better than anyone else and I do think a lot of that is because he also interprets Wengers exposure in the French media where he tends to be a little more open. And I was somewhat surprised to hear the same sentiment being expressed by Ivan before the AGM tonight – in referencing the difficulty it will mean to try to replace him.
The question was also asked as to whether we would win another league title under Wenger – and most expressed doubts. But I think that was the wrong question. The question should have been whether we would win a CL. And that’s the reason why I believe we will see more world class players arrive here in the coming few years.
A poignant and sobering note to end a wonderful discussion. His time in this job is limited. I read somewhere recently that Mourinho was great in building teams – but Wenger built a club. And what a job he’s done.
Otd: The url of that pic suggests it was 1965-66, but the mix of kits — collared, V-necked and round necked shirts and the two different sock styles –all suggest, as you say, early 60s.
Upply: That’s indeed how it was.
I also believe Wenger will run this contract out and then leave. I hope he leaves on a high which should translate as a premier league or a champions league title.
The AGM again showed up some interesting facets. Chipswick saying it is no one but Wenger who decides on everything that happens to the team and they just back him. Also IG saying the reserve money is far lesser than touted. I still believe the board do hide behind Wenger and the boss cannot do anything about it. Yet the so called 170 million to spend etc is a farce, realistically we can buy average players and for us to buy a marquee one, we need to sell someone from the team which is what has been happening.
Ned / Oskar, the only face I didn’t recognise in 88 photo was Tommy Baldwin. Forgot he played (very little) for us before his main career at Chelsea. The mix of playing kit / black shorts could be a quick promo photo before / after training, which sometimes would be at Highbury, on the pitch and / or using the indoor arena behind the Clock End.
Joe
Very interesting and insightful comments from you. I think Auclair is one of the very few journalists who has a personal relationship with Wenger. He is good at press conferences at throwing out titbits and ideas to the throng but he allows very few journos to get close to him.
I think all of those points make a great deal of sense. I have mentally written off this season for the two main honours because we didn’t come out of the window with a balanced squad and Saturday’s team and probably the Anderlecht one underlines how vulnerable we are. But whatever happens over the next two and a half seasons I think Wenger must be recognised as one of the two major figures in the history of our club and arguably he has contributed more than Chapman although Chapman’s work established the basis of the club.
In three years time when we are debating the foibles of Klopp or Martinez on here we will look back very fondly at the Wenger era even though living through it now old buggers like me are always moaning.
Uply
If memory serves me correctly he started the season for us upfront but was part of the deal that brought George Graham to Highbury. We got the best end of that!
Joe@ 93, I also listened to the arsecast and it was quite informative. So what would your choice be out of the three managers that they would like to see at the club when Wenger do leave. I think the choices were between Klop, Simeone and the present Roma’s coach cant remember his name.
Perfectly sets it up….
AND SCORES!
@99 Roma’s coach is Rudi Garcia. Also in relation to earlier in the drinks anyone who wants to watch a game in Germany should (i mean who wouldn’t cheap ticket prices and beer) but i would advise no one watch Dortmund because altough the atmosphere in the Signal Iduna Park is 2nd only to the Allianz Arena it is dangerous and the ultra’s are terrible i.e Racist and violent.
Ttg,
I don’t think Wenger will ever get the recognition he really deserves until he leaves and people realise what it is like without him.
SAG:
Good question. Interestingly, I wouldn’t agree with any of the names suggested.
The outstanding candidate in my book is Pepe Guardiola. His football vision dovetails with Wenger. He is internationally cultured, multilingual (German, Spanish and English) and has a proven track record in the CL. In 3 years time – he’ll probably have won the Bundesliga for a 4th time and maybe even a CL and could well have achieved everything he can with Bayern. And the PL is a must-go for a coach of his stature. I don’t think he’d go to a benefactor club like Chelsea or Man Citeh (I think he’s already refused those jobs). The only other English club that he might consider would be Manu but the Glazer debt and current state of the club is not one of health. But he’d be absolutely perfect for us and I honestly think he’ll be the very first person they’ll approach.
@Joe, He will definitely be top of my list too.Hopefully Mourinho will still be around at Chelshit, can you imagine Pepe against Mourinho in the PL together. Now that would be some good stuff, wishful thinking I know. Any of those other three would be fine with me too.
@ Jude, thanks, yea that’s his name.
Ned at 88, that was 65 I believe, they are in what passed for training kit then. It was certainly 64 or later because that is when Don signed.
And good evening to the rest of you. All are well, I hope 🙂
Joe@102: I don’t think Wenger will ever get the recognition he really deserves until he leaves and people realise what it is like without him.
Amen to that.
Also agree that Guardiola would be a great manager to succeed Arsene when that day comes.
As for the hype surrounding Dortmund and the Bundesliga, we’ll see how long that lasts. What everyone seems to have missed is the chap (board member or whatever he was) who said “if we raise the prices we’ll lose the people” or words to that effect – i.e. they too would raise the prices if they thought they could get away with it. I don’t buy that idealistic bullcrap about “not wanting to fleece the fans” for one second, the reality is that the Bundesliga is, overall, far from as popular as the Premier League or La Liga and they can’t charge as much for tickets. But you can be bloody sure they would if only they believed they could.
‘Holic@104: The Guvn’r knows.
SAG, Jude et al: Only seems yesterday that the name of David Moyes was being thrown around these hallowed halls as AW’s potential successor…
Hi Lars,
I was surprised that the topic (Wenger’s departure) was even discussed by Gazidis. I didn’t see the context as to how it arose but if nothing else – it shows that they’re thinking about the importance of that already otherwise Gazidis would have kicked the issue to touch. Obviously the succession planning on that front is going to be very important and given the magnitude of the job – its a situation whereby you’d realistically have to give the chosen candidate appropriate time (1 year at least I would think) to schedule things properly (considering that he’ll probably be employed elsewhere).
Btw – whats the hotel you normally use when you get over?
If we were to bring in a ‘name’ (Guardiola, Klopp, etc) then they would have their own people. All well and good.
If we pulled another Arsene (classic Arsenal) then I’d love to see him surrounded by Arsene’s ex-players as backroom staff. Bould, Dennis, Overmars, Vieira, Pires, Henry, Adams, Campbell, Freddie, Keown, Lehmann (Oh yeah)- there are plenty to consider and I’ve doubtless missed a few.
We would need something to match Wenger’s vision. Either a new vision led by a new and strong-willed figurehead or a continuance of Wenger’s philosophy, which the players mentioned know only too well.
Cheers Holic- just got my discount on a couple of shirts from yesteryear and still just spent enough to stroll off with free delivery and all. Top stuff.
Sunderland ’79 Cup Final shirt (as threatened) and Dennis Legends shirt, since you asked.
Great reminiscences from the bar. Cheers all.
Joe. Excellent work today.
Joe: the one I usually use is the Best Western London Highbury, but they’ve jacked up the prices quite a lot over the summer and I’m not really sure it’s value for money anymore. A single room for three nights used to be about £250 in total (i.e. just over £80 per night) but I’ve checked a few times lately and haven’t been quoted below £105 per night on any of those occasions and you can probably find better for that kind of money. I’m flying over tomorrow with two others and we’ve rented a flat at Highbury through airbnb.com, and the total cost for three nights – including breakfast, the hosts will see to it that there is bread, coffe, tea, juice and stuff there! – will amount to about £120 each for three nights.
Lars:
Wow – thats great value! I’ve stayed in a few places now and I’ve never got anywhere near that value. I’ll certainly look into that so thanks for the link. Hoping to travel over for the Manu game if I get word on tickets soon. Would gladly stand you a few pints if your over for that one?
Joe: only happy to help, mate! And I would never say no to a couple of pints but unfortunatley not over for that one, we’ll be having a big Arsenal Sweden party in southern Sweden that day.
Hey Joe, oops sorry, gone all Hendrix there 🙂 When are you coming over again? I would love to buy you a pint.
Ah, missed the Man Utd reference. Will be around post match probably, but have the grand’holics down for that one, so no Tollie pre-match. Lets keep everything crossed.
An aside to Norcal, Scruz, PiK and all other SF Giants fans:
Sure wish one of our lefties would swat one into McCovey Cove. With the bases loaded. And for you non-baseball fans out there, please take “loaded” as a license to drink from here to Hull and back. 🙂
Lars – sorry to hear that. Next time.
Holic – the post match pints are even sweeter in my experience! Would love to catch up with you all again. And that golf invitation over here is still on the table but this time I’ll be pushing you a little harder to come over 😉
Jeez Ned, Uply, ‘Holic, you have better memories of the ’60s than I have. Are you sure you were there? I only dated that photo as early ’60s cos George Eastham hadn’t arrived by the ’59 game I mentioned and left us in 1965(?). Collar styles, colour of shorts, and ‘indoor arena behind the clock end’ is all trivia that impresses me greatly!
I can easily see this being AW’s last contract and, if we can give him a CL, also his last managerial contract anywhere. A move upstairs as some kind of life technical consultant/board member would be appropriate. And as his replacement AW himself has suggested Dragan Stojković who played for him at Nagoya Grampus and later managed the same club citing AW as his greatest influence … http://www.espnfc.com/story/839046 Stojković was a real tough player, one of the very best I ever saw play. I particularly like the story of how, when he was a manager, an opponent kicked the ball out of play to slow things down and Stojković kicked it from his technical area straight into their goal. Brilliant, even if the ref did send him off for it! My kind of manager. 😀
Öskar
As they say, Otd, if you can remember the ’60s you weren’t really there.
Joe @117,
I’ve heard that, post match, you don’t have to push that hard to get Holic over ………. ? 😉
I see that Gazidis challenged some very detailed analysis on our cash reserves by saying that reports are wildly overstating them. I have to say the analysis I’ve seen is pretty compelling and by excellent analysts so let’s have some transparency and find out what the position actually is. I think shareholders should know and it’s not unreasonable that supporters do either . It’s not merely Re transfers it’s whether it is right to keep putting up ticket prices. Apparently the National Assiciation of Supporter’s Clubs are saying that the new TV deal means that every Premier League club could let supporters in free all season and still be better off than they were under the old deal. I do get embarrassed when I lend one of my season tickets to friends and they ask me what it costs. We are pricing families out of football and it’s a huge shame.
On another point it was another nasty unfounded story by the Mail about Wenger and Monaco yesterday. I have banned this repellent rag in my house because of the way it investigates stories and it’s awful hypocrisy and it is particularly vindictive to Arsensl. If you’re a Gooner don’t have it in your house
ttg: the problem for outside analysts, no matter how competent they are, is that it can never be more than guesstimates. They don’t have all the information that Gazidis and the rest of the Arsenal board does. And while I understand the desire to know more, publishing more than what you are required by law can be seriously detrimental to the club as that could reveal business plans or other details that you for strategic reasons would want to keep secret (do you really want other clubs to know exactly how much money we have to spend on players, for example?) or simply can’t reveal because you’ve signed contracts that require you to keep schtum about details et cetera. Also, no matter how much you reveal there will always be people who, either through being thick as pig shit or pure malice, will look for things to question and there would be just as much of a crap storm going on.
(And besides, I keep fighting my uphill battle of trying to get people to realise that transfer fees are not really the issue, it is the running cost of having a player on the books that is the real thing so even if we knew we had £X million to spend on transfers we would still have no idea about the wages we could afford to sustain for that particular player)
Which is another matter altogether from tickets being too expensive, of course. No arguments from me there. And certainly no arguments from me on the Daily Heil either. An utterly despicable publication.
With the usual, formal, apology to Trev…
Lars@122 knows.
In fact, what he knows, chiefly, is that he doesn’t know and neither do I or ttg’s “excellent analysts”.
COYG
So arsene has now admitted that – mesut ozil advised the manager he felt a little crack in his knee just before half time.
So AW sends him back out and tells the arsenal physio to ” keep an eye on him”
Quote from AW- ” when you are 1 nil down you want to keep your best offesnive players on the pitch”
It is ni longer a surprise to hear arsenes deluded view on arsenal.
Btw – arsene also believes ozil will be back in 6 weeks while the german fa believe 12 weeks
I know who has no idea about injury management
Arsene has truly lost the plot
Cheers, Pangloss!
Dickie @124
May I call you James?
Melon – you can call me whatever you like
Maybe even impress us all with more of your funny and hilarious fruit jokes..
At least it distracts you from actually discussing anything real about arsenal that vaguely resembles the truth on here
I guess as expected, one single differing view on here and roll out the blog bouncer to keep the one way traffic of discussion on here now what used to be a very cool and enjoyable arsenal blog.
@124 Wrong on so many counts. The physio told Arsene Wenger that Oezil had a slight pain in is Knee but it wasn’t that bad and he wanted to continue. here read this article: http://news.arseblog.com/2014/10/wenger-koscielny-out-rosicky-ramsey-updates/
of course jude you are right,
Ozil is fine, he wil be back soon.
He is probably already back in training.
There will be pictures on arsenal player soon of him training with the team
Arsene knows, maybe only 3 weeks hey.
@Dickie@129 I didn’t say that did i just said blaming wenger for Ozil’s injury is wrong. By the way this is the problem i have with arsenal fans and how easily they are manipulated by the media.
Of course. It must be ozils fault that his time at arsenal is his longest sungle injury time ever in his career.
We do however Agree about the manipulation of arsenal fans.
Only problem is jude it aint by the media.
Smell the roses.
Arsene has slowly but surely completely stuffed this squad and a once great club so that there is virtually no resembence of the once great past and history
Worst part is that a small remaining % of arsenal fans still try to defend the manager and his out of date methods.
Before you believe the next arsenal.com story jude, make sure it isnt you who is being manipultaed.
Anyway seems that lurky, vinnay, dr F and oskar the only remaining self thinkers left on here.
Surprised they still bother
Dickie@ 124, personally I think ozil should have been replaced irrespective of his knee or not. He was having a not so good day, Carzola should have carried on. But hey what do I know, he gets paid the big bucks to make those decision. Also you know most players will always down play their injury especially in a huge game like that. So I can’t necessary blame the manager on a day when your most expensive player is supposedly playing against the guy you replaced him with. And of course we were losing the game, if we were winning he probably would have taken him out.
SAG – I have more trust and belief in what trev has to say on here regarding physiotherapy and injury management rather than any of the complete BS from arsenal.com videos or otherwise.
Have a look at ozils injury history in his entire playing career for each club he has played for..
It is staggering reading.
Anyway You can just about pick what article will be next on arsenal.com
Some long term Plan about our spending in january….
Oh sorry they have already rolled that one out yesterday.
SAG – you are also one of the last reamining free thinkers on here that speaks his mind outside of the ” one way traffic” on here now.
Not many of you left…
Enjoy the
@Dickie @131 I am not an Arsenal fan so i don’t read Arsenal.com. I also can’t believe you think Arsenal where a once great club i disagree your club only exists to me because of Arsene Wenger so excuse if I believe that your Club is not as good as you think it is. As a Bayern Munich fan i like the way Arsene Wenger does things it is the only thing that drew me to Arsenal and it is similar to what made us great. i bet you did not know that even though we have celebrated 20 years of continuous profit this year, that in 2008 we were in the Europa league (Uefa Cup then) so excuse me if i think that maintaining your small club in the Champions league is a great achievement and that instead of lambasting him you should try to understand your clubs place in the world of football.
Jude – nice try but would you truly like to swap managers ?
Not for a second I bet.
Like arsenal the football club, arsene was also once a leader in his field.
Now he is a business man and a good one at that.
But his days as a football manager and a winner are well and truly behind him.
His recent incident with mourinho when he let mourinho get to him in public for the first time in his career showed mentally, he Has already lost the edge, the innivative and brilliant edge that all entrepreneurs and winners have at their peak.
Bayern have players who play football and fight for their manager and believe in the strategy of the manager each match and execute the strategy
Why, beciase it actually works and they improve as players.
Our club and this team are in a continuous downward spiral and wont stop until he is finished rooting the place from top to bottom.
Recent form is good form and our form is complete shite.
World class facilities – yes
Full stadium – yes
Great football team and squad – not even close.
Sanchez and ozil will follow our other recent quality- out the door at the first sight of decent to the manager.
Look at cesc- in the best form of his career and injury free under mourinho. Indesputible in every way.
Dickie
I exist only to marvel at your incredible ability to know what AW is thinking, your insight into his cognitive abilities. Your rather select reading list of contributors is one that I yearn to be on.
You like Trev though. That´s a good thing, as well as being somewhat ironic with regards to your view of me!
I say DOWN with fun! How dare we come on here and not complain about everything, or state FACTS (even better with extra exclamation marks)…
As for the “Blog bouncer”… I had no idea you´d met Carlos….
Kisses
Melon,
Let me ask you some simple questions and I truly hope you can be bothered from your fun to provide an honest gooner to gooner answer to any of them
Do you belive the squad is moving forwards or backwards.
Are we better today then previous seasons
Do we play better football as a team
Is arsene your preferred coach for our football club going forward.
@Dickie
Am I allowed to express the opinion that you’re tedious and talk complete shite, or does that infringe your human rights and leave you feeling all bullied and scared?
Either way: you’re tedious and you talk shite.
This is an Arsenal blog. Not a self-help group for thin-skinned Mourinho fanboys (what’s your chap won lately, by the way?).
If you speak nonsense, particularly with an aggressive tone and a shit load of finger pointing, people will call you on it. If you don’t start none, there won’t be none.
Take a hanky, have a cry and jog on.
That’ll be me for the weekend. Everyone else: enjoy the game and here’s to a good result.
COYG
@135 I would not like to swap managers maybe in 3 years they have both finished their contracts. Also in Arsene Wengers defence it took 30 years to achieve this and we had already won European championships so it would be a lot harder for your club. As well in Bayern Managers do not control or motivate anything it is a family club so former greats like der Kaiser(GOAT),Gerd mueller,and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge run Bayern and have done so for a long time. i would care if we swapped managers only as Pep is the only Manager i respect more than Arsene Wenger. Btw this is not Cesc’s greatest form had better in both of his last 2 seasons at Barca at the start and Tailed like the Weak minded boy he was. Oezil and Sanchez only came to your club because of Arsene Wenger, and Ramsey only stays because of him so Respect your manager and remember that your club like Man City and Chelsea used to be a small club.
Dick
I wonder why you want my opinion when yours is plenty for one cranium to be dealing with?
Yours fruitily
N7 – aggressive tone.
You are too funny.
perhaps it may be best you take one of your regular ” After loss” media bans so you dont have to listen to any non propaganda or non fun arsenal stuff.
@Dick
Good comeback.
Big “heh” at “propaganda”. Hope you’ve got your tinfoil hat on, I hear Arsene can read your thoughts if you’re not careful. He might realise you have the goods on him re: the great Ozil injury conspiracy.
Any reason you’re not posting under your usual handle today? The grammar is a bit of a giveaway. Oops.
Anyways jude – enjoy winning football mathces regualrly and consistently with your team and your manager.
We dont enjoy such high ambitions.
Just a Good old fashioned clean balance sheet for us and hope for a draw and talk about the matches ” we are sure to win” in the future
N7 – best ask your boss the last question, not me.
Anyway- same simple questions as for melon above.
Are we doing better
Is the squad moving forward or back
Is arsene the best coach for our club
simple basic fun question.
You like fun dont you ?
Come on sunshine: you’re supposed to deny having a regular handle.
I’ll leave it to the bar to work out who “Dickie” is, and to ponder why he didn’t feel able to post these particular views under his usual name.
Free thinker? I’d say you’re overcharging.
Peace out
Dick
Are you collecting a database of opinions?
I admire you not so much for your opinons (which you are welcome to), but for your insight into how others (mostly AW) are thinking. it´s truly astounding.
Thank the gods that you then come on to share those insights with us. It´s a gift, and we should all be more grateful.
Yours in awe,
M Brando
N7- I take that as a big ” I would prefer not to answer any questions about arsenal that arent about fun arsenal stuff ”
Are you having fun in eighth place behind the worst utd team in 15 years…
Thats been a barrel of laughs for All gooners worldwide.
A real rib tickler arsene has been this season..
M brando-I am not sure arsene is doin too much thinkin about much of anything of late, except any old 11 should do this week.
Might even play chezza on the wing for fun. You like fun dont you.
Dick
I do like fun. As a matter of fact I was just tossed into a salad. Which was fun.
Do you like fun Dick? Or are you more the tosser rather than the tossed, as it were?
Kisses
Good piece on the price of football on the beeb over the last few days, the cost to go see the Arsenal is absolutly ridiculous even when compared to some other teams in the PL, when comparing it to most in Europe then it’s just off the charts. When you consider the money being pulled in from the TV deals, not to mention the sponsership deals, then it really is hard for the powers that be to justify a 3% price hike across the board.
My last jaunt to THOF, the opening game to Palace, the ticket was around 60 quid for a seat up in the nosebleeds in the Clockend Upper (still a great view) compared to the 30 notes it cost to sit in the North Bank Upper to see Southampton less then a year before, because someone had decided that a newly promoted team warranted a Cat B price, kerching. Add to that a return flight, a few nights in a central London hotel and a few days on the lash with a few fine holics and you’re looking at a pretty penny, suffice to say, that I could of got a season ticket to Ajax and to AZ and it would have cost less, bet hey ho, I had a great time and I won’t hesitate to do it again the next opportunity I get.
That’s the thing about going down the Arsenal, it gets into your blood, it’s a tribal thing, totally addictive, it’s not a choice, once you’ve spent any amount of time doing it you’re hooked, it’s not just the game, it’s the whole scene around it, With all due respect, I think a lot of our, for lack of a better word, nouveux fans from far flung places don’t really quite understand that. I’ve seen arguements here when veteran season ticket holders were complaining (rightly so) about the cost of their ever increasing annual costs, only to be bombarded with the counter arguement that “they didn’t have to go”….. If only it were that easy.
While I’m at it, another real gripe of mine is the call, usually from that noveux group, to always “pay him another 10 grand a week” or “a ton a week is peanuts”. In no shape or form are amounts like that “peanuts”, and who do you think ends up paying for it all, yes you guessed it, those that part with their hard earned every week, the loyal season ticket holders.
Before I get lambasted by our foriegn legion, I’m not tarring all with the same brush here, nor am I saying that fans abroad are any less passionate about our club then the locals.
Back to the Beeb bit… I’ve been to games here and in Germany, the costs are indeed much lower. There is a good atmosphere in the Bundesliga stadiums I have visited, but to compare it to the old atmosphere in England is just plain wrong. Yes, there is a lot of singing and a lot of noise, but it has nothing to do with what is going on on the field. In the PL players names will be chanted after a good move or piece of skill, in Germany the singing keeps on regardless. It is all very uniform, very orchastrated, very organised, to be perfectly blunt, very German. In fact it couldn’t be more German even if you shoved a bratwurst in his gob and dressed him in Lederhosen.
As for going to games way back when, it was indeed a lot cheaper and the atmosphere on the terraces was better, but it wasn’t all sunshine and happiness. The facilities and catering where downright pants, you were hearded in to pens like cattle, it was extreamly dangerous and we can all count ourselves lucky that there was only one Hillsborough, how that hadn’t happened before will always remain a mystery to me. Today we are fortunate to have one of the best stadiums in the world with clean toilets, comfortable seats and great views, plus an enviroment where you can watch the game safetly.
I suppose it’s the price of progress.
Joe.
I stay in The Pembury, on the Sevensisters, not too far from the Finsbury Park tube. All pretty basic, but clean and a shower and toilet en suite. Close enough to roll home from The Tollie. 😉
You’ll have to shop around (Bookings.com. Tivago etc) as prices fluxuate daily, but I was there last time for 125 euro for two days, not too bad.
Now for something completely different.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20141010/-i-m-sure-indian-league-will-take-off-
It is probably consoling to us more ordinary beings that someone as well-traveled, well-informed and well-intentioned like Arsene can overlook a few things.
“It faces cricket in India but there’s always room for a second sport. There’s only really badminton and cricket in India at the moment but there’s room for another sport. I know that the people there watch the Premier League and I’m convinced that with such a huge population, it will take off. ”
Before the 1983 world cup win and subsequent relative successes of Indian cricket teams — and finally the opening up of Indian economy in the early nineties and the middle-class boom and vast marketing around cricket — in many states Cricket was the second sport and either Football (Bengal, the North-Eastern states, Kerala, Goa) or Field Hockey (Punjab) being the number one sport.
With the nation-wide Indian league introduced in the nineties glamor of this competition has dropped somewhat, but IFA Shield remains the FOURTH oldest Football cup competition in the world, and the event of first “native” Indian team, Mohun Bagan, winning the shield at 1911 playing with bare feet against East Yorkshire Regiment eventually took on mythical significance in the various movements and struggles for self-governance and independence.
Indian national football team is awful, it used to be of relevance in at least the Asian scene but that is no longer the case, but the World Cup or Euros or even Copa America enjoys huge viewership in many cities.
Growing up in India in the eighties, with two TV channels both government-controlled, in our local state-owned channel there used to be dedicated programs showing Serie A and La Liga and snippets of European club championship.
To the health of Indian football the popularity of ISL might be of irrelevance if the franchise owners have no intention of investing in the moribund football infrastructure the huge money they are going to get out of the TV revenues.
@149 If you think its uniform come the Allianz not very uniform there.
H2H@149:
“That’s the thing about going down the Arsenal, it gets into your blood, it’s a tribal thing, totally addictive, it’s not a choice, once you’ve spent any amount of time doing it you’re hooked, it’s not just the game, it’s the whole scene around it, With all due respect, I think a lot of our, for lack of a better word, nouveux fans from far flung places don’t really quite understand that.”
I think you are spot on about us remote fans not fully realizing the camaraderie of following the game live on the ground with a throng of like-minded fanatics. And the “Arsenal bar”s everywhere are a poor imitation of that experience.
However that attempt to imitate the experience shows that the remote fans appreciate that camaraderie and sense of adventure that the whole live viewing entails. And they would do it “no matter what” if a chance is given and hence I think sometimes some do not find them the patience to understand the genuine grievances about rising ticket prices because they think it is a privilege. This is not to excuse that impatience, but an attempt to understand it and to realize that essentially in terms of relationship with Arsenal their dedication is no less authentic.
Also, if I may, it is the remote viewership and the TV revenues and the world wide popularity which are the things that are really propelling this club towards the kind of business model that can support the footballing ambitions in this day and age. So the remote viewership , new and old, are as active participants in the conversations of club’s financial moves as the locals are.
H2H knows (as usual).
The Club is clearly very complacent about the size of the ST waiting list but there is clear evidence that they have been working through that list in recent seasons.
Many of the ‘fans’ who have ‘joined the party’ since the late 90s and make up a high proportion of Club Level and newer ST holders may not be renewing their high cost seats if the success and style that drew them to the club doesn’t return in the near future. Anyone who has had the ‘privilege’ of watching a game from Club Level and knows what a normal football fan crowd is like will be very aware of the different relationship between these ‘fans’ and the club and team.
I know several long-time Gooners who can no longer afford to go regularly but who made up the backbone of the support during hard times in the early 80s. These fans will not be able to fill the stadium at current prices once the ‘plastics’ have jumped ship.
The Club has exploited the market but market conditions do change. Success on the pitch is absolutely critical to their continued ability to bleed the fans as much as they would like.
Meanwhile hiking the prices this season in order to pay Silent Stan £3m for undefined consultancy services is an absolute disgrace. This is also probably only the beginning of that becoming a regular annual ‘dividend’ for that cowboy. Frankly, PHW was probably correct.
H2H @149, I can’t argue with anything you stated in that piece of yours. Especially with the whole ticket hiking and general expenses involved in supporting the Arsenal. As a far away fan, I really respect the fans that spend their hard earned money week in week out supporting our team.Though the passion might be the same, but the financial involvement of fans are different and I feel those fans have the right to complain when our club keep increasing ticket price almost every season. I doubt there is any club in the World that charge as much as we do. There is a younger generation coming up, and the club can’t chase them away with the crazy ticket price we got going on.
I simply fail to understand the trolls and the hate funneled at AFC and at AW.
Most of it poorly reasoned, lacking proof, subjective opinions, and largely anecdotal.
Indicative of folks with little or no impulse control. The jealousy of AFC and it having AW is patently obvious. But please, all of you keep trying to deny the obvious.
And no, I won’t be getting into a debate with any of you lobotomized media-inhaling drones.
Now, as my British friends would say it – ta.
Lars – you make some excellent points but I still want more transparency in things like the impact of gate receipts on the club’s financial position.I can certainly see your point about transfers and also fully accept that what creates a haemorrhage if money from the club are expensive long- term contracts like Bendtner’s which must have cost us around £15 million over the course of his contract.
Pangloss
You put excellent analysts in inverted commas which I took to mean you don’t feel they exist ! There are a lot of people who delve into accounts without much knowledge of financial statements but I am referring to the Swiss Ramble analysis which appeared a few weeks ago and which followed on the analysis in the previous year which started the speculation that Arsenal have the highest cash reserves of any club in the world.
The BBC survey on admission prices was ( for the BBC) a decent piece of work and the club really need to look at their policy on admission prices, if in the scheme of things the rise in prices is a very tiny contribution to the overall financial picture. The time will come when many long-term supporters will be unable to afford to attend matches any more. Ultimately a stadium half- filled with corporate guests on freebies and some extremely well- heeled supporters will have major implications for the club.
H2H knows – every word.
Bathgooner – he knows too.
I know where you are coming from, Lars, but I think ttg has a good point too.
And, yes, the ticket price hike is an absolute disgrace.
More sinister is the appointment of Mini-Kroenke to the board. To do what exactly ? Oh yes, the leadership expertise.
NO-ONE EXPECTS the leadership expertise ! 😉
What next ? Comfy chairs in the boardroom ? 😉
Amidst all the furore about ticket prices, very little mud seems to be sticking to 2 of the parties who are culpable:
Players and their sleazy agents.
71 pc of the football clubs costs, on average, are down to staffing costs. That is a serious amount of wedge being paid to a lot of mediocrity, amongst the few world class talents playing in the top division.
What price a conscience?
A free fruit salad for Homer. And no debate!
Media inhalers. Marvelous
Zico
Excellent point-there has to be a salary cap because if wages continue to spiral a lot of clubs will go to the wall.
Melon,
I was surprised to hear that, for all your own super-positivity, you have a dog, and a very sad dog at that.
Could you please confirm that he is a melon collie ?
Cheers ! 😉
Zico 159 – “what price a conscience” – a Scot disappearing when it’s his shout at the bar 😉
On a more serious note, your point about players wages and agents is spot on – it is without doubt the biggest cost affecting ticket prices. I think we all accepted that the building of the new stadium would have an impact on ticket prices. Fast forward to today, the debt repayments are ring fenced and are now in the lower zone of our fixed costs. The biggest expenditure which dwarfs everything else is players wages. The new humongous TV deals appear to have gone straight into players (and agents) pockets. As you say, many of whom are no more than average at best.
The club will say that this is just market forces ( brought on by the vanity clubs) and they have a point. If we refuse to pay “the going rate” for a player, keyboard warriors of the world surface shouting about the club bring tight arses and show no ambition. No doubt it is a delicate balance to get right.
We are also concerned at the payment of £3 million to a KSE company for services. This would be backed up by a legitimate invoice and signed off by directors – standard business practice here. It may well be a cover for an alternative way of dividend payment. Silent Stan has put hundreds of millions to purchase the majority shareholding in the club and wil expect dome return. As far as one can tell, his is purely a business investment – he has no interest in sport per se , unlike the vanity clubs, and eventually he will either suck money out of the club or sell when it’s reached its maximum value. Most of us consider ourselves as fans rather than customers. When that position is reversed, interesting times will be upon us.
Trev…..162 heh
H2H / Bath / TTG……spot on as normal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for the kind ones.
Doc Faus’.
Good point about the TV money, however, imagine a half full to almost empty stadium with a sterile atmosphere, no passion, no cheers, no chants. How much do you think the TV companies will then be willing to shell out four that product?
It’s the stadium going public that make the product attractive. Have you ever seen one of those behind closed doors games? It’s very hard to maintain focus watching on TV because quite frankly without the crowd it’s pretty boring.
Arsenal (and others) would do well to remember this before they cut off the life blood of the club by pricing them out.
Trev.
Heh! I believe we did a version of that one a while ago. Something to do with broccoli or cauliflower.
Anyway. Yours is better. As usual 🙂